What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

ateixeira

My Miata has leather, and I'm not really a fan. Slippery, sticky on a hot day, freezing and hard on a cold day. They're not heated, not are they perforated. I think those two things would make it better.

My ideal seat is a grippy cloth, plus heat.

-juice

kyfdx

MB-Tex

That is Mercedes-Benz... BMW calls their vinyl "leatherette"

andre1969

But I still like cloth. I may be the only one, though

I still prefer cloth myself, but the biggest problem is that, these days, there's just no market for upscale versions of cloth. These days, with nicer cars you just go straight to leather, with no cloth option at all. And in a lot of the more basic levels of the cars, the cloth is often roughly the texture of lawn furniture. It might be durable, but it just doesn't have a nice feel to it.

Also, these days, they often don't upholster door panels in the same material as the seats, like they used to back in the day. So when you combine outdoor lawn furniture fabrics with "soft-touch" door panels that you have to hit hard before you can tell they're actually soft, it just doesn't make for a very nice looking interior, IMO. I think the leather matches those stark door panels better than the cloth.

One thing I thought was cool about the Hyundai Azera, though, is that if you get the cloth seats, they have a nice, upscale look to them. It has a subtle polka-dot pattern that would've looked at home on something like an '83 Olds Ninety-Eight. And it had the door panels done up to match. I thought it was one of the nicest cloth interiors I've seen in a long time.

Only car I've ever had with leather is my '79 New Yorker. I think it's comfortable, but it's also a very light creme color, so it's not going to burn as bad as, say, the burgundy/red of my Silverado or LeMans, or the black of my Catalina. I think the leather stretches a bit differently than the vinyl though, so that it matches the contours of your body a bit better than vinyl would.

Actually, now that I think about it, my '88 LeBaron had leather seats, but my ex-wife did most of the driving (and ruining) of that car. Its seats were a light brown, actually not too far off from the Aveo. I don't remember it being TOO bad in hot weather. I think the fact that the car was sealed up tighter than the '68 Dart I was driving at the time, plus the curving windows and larger windshield, contributed to making the interior feel hotter when it was closed up all day than the actual seating material.

nippononly

that it took the AVEO to introduce leatherette to the economy class (subcompacts, not including the Mini). It would be nice if Honda made leather or leatherette optional in the Fit (and Civic).

With its extensive equipment list, I would think Hyundai could afford to make leather optional in the Accent SE too.

ateixeira

Too many people might recall the old cheap vinyl Honda used to use for the Civic.

-juice

nippononly

But in appreciating the leatherette in the Aveo, they are NOT reminded of the crappy vinyl in the old Metro?

andre1969

in the Focus? I know you can get it in the Cobalt. So IMO it doesn't seem like it should be too much of a stretch to get leather into a Civic or Corolla.

Honda Civics might've used cheap vinyl once upon a time, but then, didn't most small cars back in the day? I think those days are far enough behind us, that most people probably won't hold those cheap Civic vinyls against Honda any more than they'd hold a Vega against GM. Oh wait, maybe that's not a good analogy! :P

One interesting thing I found out, only fairly recently, is that back in much of the 70's, vinyl was actually the OPTIONAL seat covering! And cloth was often the base. My Mom had a 1980 Malibu, which became my first car, and it had vinyl seats. I always thought that was the base, but it turns out it was the option! Even on the Malibu Classic, which had fairly nice cloth seats, and inserts on the door panel, that was standard, with vinyl being optional. Now some cars would offer a really upscale cloth interior, usually velour with that thick, loose-pillow look, or some loud striped pattern or something, but in many cars, vinyl was still the highest-priced seating choice.

nippononly

you could get factory leather in the Corolla. No-one ever bought it, so they dropped it. Maybe it will make a return with the new model next spring.

I don't think there's factory leather available for any trim of the Civic.

lilengineerboy

I have learned that leather comes in grades, and also there are different amounts of leather used. My Contour had "leather seating surfaces" which means where my butt goes is leather and everything else is vinyl. I don't know about the back seat. I the DSM the front of the front bucket seats was leather and the rest was pleather. The quality of leather on the front of the Contour seats was not equal to that used on the ES300 (nor would I expect it to be, since the car was 1/2 the price, although the option was priced similarly).

explorerx4

i would like to see it in dry conditions with a fixed barrier. that said, it was pretty amazing.

plekto

At 35mph, in a normal test, it does as well as the average compact car. But yes, it does bounce - it's part of their strategy in fact, since it also has side airbags. Hiting your head on an airbag or the other passenger is a better option by far than absorbing all of the force directly.

Then again, it's up to the drver, which is why that slightly angled wall was the key - accidrnts are rarely 90 degrees head-on(and if they are - well, no amount of safety equipment will likely save you, even in professional racing)

Nice little car - definately safer than most of the cars we went around in in the 80s, to be sure.

explorerx4

you mean 90 degrees against a fixed object.

ateixeira

Aveo and Metro aren't connected in any way, that's all.

Aveo is made by the former Daewoo folks in Korea. Metro was made by Suzuki, and for a lot of its life it was a Geo, not even a Chevy.

-juice

nippononly

OK, I see where you're going. I tend to disagree, as the last Metro wore the Chevy badge, and I believe was the very last model sold in the U.S. to still have vinyl seats. There isn't one person in ten that bought a Metro that would know where it was built, or by whom, ditto the current Aveo, IMO.

And while I've never actually made a detailed comparison of vinyls (:-P), I would bet the Metro's vinyl wasn't notably more luxurious than the old Civic's, which quit the vinyl thing years ahead of the Metro, and Tercel also.

ateixeira

Aveo looks and feels different than the Metro, so I still don't see people linking the two. No more than Aveo and Chevette, for instance.

-juice

iluvmysephia1

car that stands for GM's big venture into Asia. Daewoo, yes, is the creator of the Kalos(Korean name)/Aveo. I am sure there are a lot of over-joyed South Korean workers for Daewoo when GM took them over in 2002.

A lot of us regulars here on Edmunds followed the whole Ferris-Wheel ride for months and months and months and you can go to some of those "Read Only" threads here on Edmunds to edu-ma-cate yourself in full if you want. You'll find everything you ever wanted to know(and almost more)by going there.

A for instance of what you might not find is some of the South Korean Daewoo workers' opinions on the takeover. I did research and found out some local South Korean economic impact news for the areas involved around the factories bought out by GM.

It remains GM's smartest move in...ummm....years.

alltorque

My wife has been driving a Honda Jazz, (Fit to you guys), for a year now and loves it. It's the 3-cyl, 1339cc, 82bhp engine mated to the 7-spd CVT 'box. Great fun to drive, (especially when you pop it into "Manual" mode and use the paddle-shifts to change gears), great economy and brilliantly flexible seating. After a year and 10000 miles it only ever been washed and fuelled - no warranty work whatsoever. First service next week.

Am I right in thinking that the "Fit" gets a 1.5 Ltr motor ? Presumably that's a US engine whereas the Jazz here in UK is as built for the Japanese home market, (i.e. also RHD).

lilengineerboy

Hmm, either its not a CVT or its not a 7spd. CVT stands for continuously variable transmission, so if it has speeds, then it cant be continuously variable.
It could have steps though, which are just places it holds to make it feel like a gear. The CVT in the little Dodge and Chrysler vehicles does this too.

ateixeira

Yep, the one sold in the USA gets a 109hp 1.5l engine and either a 5 speed manual or a 5 speed automatic with paddle shifters.

-juice

nippononly

Yet another exampe of a Europe-only subcompact that I wish we could get here:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/cce?Category=GALLERY&DateRange=20061101-20- 071201&Range=1&objectclass=1&Module=1&Class=11&photofoldermultisearch=2007_genev- a,mini,one&photofoldermultisearchand=1&Execute=1&Count=1

The littlest Mini has a 1.4L, 95 hp engine and a 6-speed manual, pulls a combined 41.3 mpg on the European cycle. I suppose it would also sell for a little less money than the base Cooper, our lowest model in the States. This car would be perfect for me - even the new Cooper is only going to pull like 34 mpg. But we don't get it because Americans are assumed to be too power-hungry to want such cars. Incorrect presumption!! :mad:

Mr_Shiftright

I think the new base MINI will pull a bit more than 34...it's rated 40 mpg HWY, which means maybe 38 HWY. That's not too far off from the numbers of the Euro car....and in the USA we'll do way more freeway than they will across the pond.

ateixeira

You give up usability, though, with such tiny displacement. OK for a city car, but try passing on the highway (good luck).

I think for any worthwhile gains you have to go to turbo diesel power.

-juice

bumpy

You can keep the 1.4L. I want a Mini Cooper D: 178 (or 192) ft-lbs at 1750 rpm and 42/63 miles per American gallon.

ateixeira

Saw that just after my post, that's the one to get.

You get near JCW-torque with the best fuel economy.

-juice

plekto

95-100HP was almost exactly what early 90s Civics had. Now, 45-50HP like the old VW Bugs had... that was slow.

Q: if only the engine is changed, can't it be brought in rather easily(swapping the headlights and such for DOT labelled ones and so on aside)?

Same Mini, just... wow, the D is sweet.

nippononly

Oh, I wouldn't be worried about highway power with almost 100 horses on tap - the whole silly car can't weigh more than 2500 pounds or so...

I have never minded down-shifting to pass at highway speeds. I still say give me the 1.4, unless they have a really compelling turbo diesel with much better fuel economy. That said, does this Mini Cooper D really make 42 mpg on the European urban cycle? I am very surprised at a number that high. As long as it is within $2000 of the price of the Cooper 1.4, I guess I would take that instead. But in principle I still prefer the simplicity of the little 1.4.

And, WHATEVER! It's not like we get either. We get the 1.6 gas and the gas-slurping 1.6 turbo. :-(

nippononly

it looks like it will only be four years from the arrival of the Fit, Versa, Aveo, and new Yaris, that Ford finally gets into the game with the next-gen Fiesta:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119868

A day late and a dollar short? :-P
Heck, even the on-again-off-again Smart will be here before then, and that's a much harder model to make a business case for in the U.S.!

I like the look of the Mazda2 in the pictures - it would be nice if that made it to the U.S. They talk about a wonderful new diesel Mazda has developed for that model for Europe, but I don't suppose that will make it to the States.....maybe if 50-state diesels really take off in the next couple of years, they will consider bringing it over, eh?

ateixeira

The current Fiesta was a nice improvement over the ugly duckling previous model. I think they should have brought that. Or the Mazda2, which shares the platform.

bumpy

Q: if only the engine is changed, can't it be brought in rather easily(swapping the headlights and such for DOT labelled ones and so on aside)?

The DOT stuff would be fairly simple, since there is a USDM model to source the necessary parts from. Getting the diesel engine to satisfy the EPA might be more difficult, and you'd be on your own for parts and service.

bumpy

the whole silly car can't weigh more than 2500 pounds or so...

It's engineered by Germans; the car weighs 2500 pounds after you take the seats out. The base Mini weighs 2546 pounds, the S is 2668, and the convertible S is 2844.

That said, does this Mini Cooper D really make 42 mpg on the European urban cycle?

That's what the numbers work out to. Given a 10-second 0-60 time, I'd guess it has tall gearing (even by diesel standards) which would help with the fuel economy. BMW has been making a lot of noise about US-market diesels lately, so that just may trickle on down to the Mini if we're lucky.

plekto

I'm looking for a new car next fall/winter and the new Mini is in the top 5.

But a TD version(since the base is already not a fast car, why bother with high-end speed?) that has loads of oomph for city traffic and gets better mileage than a Prius?

Sign me up. I've always loved turbo-Diesels. And I think Mini, if anyone, could pull it off in the U.S. market.

Mr_Shiftright

Just drove the 2007 Mini S with the new turbo.

Awesome car, fabulous to drive. Yeah, it's one hell of an expensive sub-compact but so much improved from the 2006...a bit taller (but you can't tell), more room inside, console pushed over, and tenacious grip on the road and great performance.

I was really impressed I must say. Just point and shoot.

kyfdx

So... Scion xA for sale?

Mr_Shiftright

Might be, might be...but I can't really spring for the Mini S---it's pricey...so I'm thinking the base MINI, banana yellow, black stripes, premium package, (w/ sunroof) cold weather package, multi-function steering wheel, fogs, armrest, that's about it. The base MINI has a brand new engine from Europe, no more DC powerplant. More ponies than the xA but not that many more.

kyfdx

No sport package?

Black roof, I assume?

Mr_Shiftright

Black roof, yeah. I don't think the car needs the sport package.

A friend of mine raced his MINI, added all kinds of aftermarket suspension and it all broke. Went back to basicaly stock suspension and the car tracks great. That tells you something.

kyfdx

Sport package: I like the seats..

explorerx4

keep the xA. they will be no more. future classic?
had a christine moment with my focus. vacuumed it out. must have hit the on button on the radio. after i turned off the vacuum, i heard music. it was coming from the car.
i took a chance and turned the radio off. did not sit in the driver's seat to do that.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, future classic in maybe 100 years. Good little car though, the xA. It seriously needs better tires and wheels than OEM however.

nippononly

It wouldn't be a Toyota if it weren't finely honed to a price point, hence those crappy tires and small rims, eh?! ;-)

Still, if you're looking for economical-to-operate, I say the xA can't be beat. The nice thing about crappy tires and small rims is tires are cheap to replace. :-)

Now I notice the new model (xD) coming in summer will have 16" rims standard. I don't suppose they will do much to improve the stock rubber though.

If Mini Cooper is only 2546 pounds, I would imagine the Cooper 1.4 might get down to 2500 pounds curb weight. Still if the new Cooper 1.6 makes 30/40 EPA, that might be enough...

boaz47

My stand on these new sub compacts. while I have always had a soft spot for some of them personally I just never thought the American consumer was ready for them. I guess the high fuel prices have had their effect and I do see more and more of them. Most are still a bit small for a primary car for me but they are making them a lot bigger inside for the most part so they aren't quite so sub anymore. However to get the inside room the outside style has to suffer a bit I guess. I am warming to the Versa but I still think the Fit looks far too much like a micro mini van and you would need a shot of Estrogen before you could drive one. That is all in the eyes of the beholder however. But then it took a while before I was willing to accept the Focus and that is the one I have kept. Nippon, I have found an old Justy that I may try to wrangle a deal on. Should make a good city car even if I would rarely drive it off of the mountain.

Mr_Shiftright

Go drive the new MINI. It's like an xA built by a superior race of aliens in another galaxy. Of course, I guess this race of aliens won't be doing the warranty work---my only hesitation with a MINI The xA hasn't even burped in 21,000 miles. My only complaint is that there must be magnets built into the bumpers because freakin' people keep hitting it while I'm parked!!! GRRRRRR :mad: This will be my THIRD bumper coming up...as Daffy Duck says "ridikilus"!!

Man you just touch these modern bumpers and they crack and that's it...you need a new skin ($130) + repaint ($300 if you want it done right, or MORE), and of course insurance is $250 deductible.

Excuse me, I'm ranting. I'll stop now.

boaz47

Could be worse. If you had the xB the whole front end looks like a bumper. Must be a lot more to replace.

lilengineerboy

Its funny you mention that, the IIHS did bumper basher testing at 5mph and found that most bumpers mismatched heights and general poor design led to $1500 in repairs for the cars that did well, $4500 for the middle group, and up to $9000 for the cars that did poorly.
most car bumpers don't work in low-speed crashes;

Part of the problem is they changed the vehicle standards for bumpers from 5 mph to 2.5 w/no damage to 2.5 and the bumper need not survive. This is driven by styling (no chrome bumpers like the old days) and $$$ (that piece of Styrofoam covered by painted plastic is cheaper and lighter than than piece of chrome). Another issue is the new pedestrian safety rules that basically say the front of the car needs to crumple around a person.

Anecdotally, a few summers ago, Trailblazer hit a Ford 150 van and pushed it into us. The van's bumper was a big chrome one and hit us perfectly, shreading and very slightly overiding the bumper cover on our then month old car. $1000 (I was glad it was in OH not MI, as OH has real insurance as opposed to MI's no fault FOS insurance).

If the Trialblazer had hit us, it would've cleared the bumper and gone right through the back hatch.

nippononly

Boaz, as much as I have a soft spot for the old Justy, I will say one thing, which perhaps goes without saying - AVOID THE ECVT! Not only does it sap much-needed power, but it was also one of Subaru's most problematic areas in the last 25 years.

Didja know that the Justy was pretty much the last Subaru car to have actual truck-style 4WD? If you get the four-wheeler, it can do some stuff that might surprise you (of course, it has no ground clearance, so you won't be riding the Rubicon! :-P)

I have several friends now that have asked me to identify "that car", and were pointing at a Fit. They really liked it, at least one is seriously considering a purchase. I explained that dealer supply was still at zero days for that model, and she would have to order it and wait several weeks, but she didn't seem to mind.

Shifty: I have every intention of test driving the new Mini, trust me! Having said that, I am as leary as you of reliability problems in the Minis, and the nearest dealer (SF) would be a real hassle for me to visit.

Mr_Shiftright

I liked the people at East Bay MINI, and I'm counting on the new models to be better, now that they've changed engines. It's a well-built little car, I will say that. God have mercy on the dealership that screws up my warranty repairs.

ateixeira

That ECVT was a good idea but before its time. Subaru has been shy to come out with another CVT, though I've spoken to some product managers and they are considering it.

Audi and Nissan have done well with theirs.

-juice

boaz47

Yes, I realize many of the old justy faults. They were just as plain of a car as you can buy. Remember I have had three Sammies so I can deal with plain generic cars. In fact I have considered looking for another Zook. Just not a fuel mileage champ by any stretch of the imagination.

I happened to park next to a young girl in her fit at the store Monday and took a good look at the car. If you stand back it is just a small mini van. I would not be surprised if it came stock with a Lilac scented dash. It might be designed for moms who have kids too small for soccer. But I will say this, while I think the image of the fit reeks chick car at least it isn't another box with wheels.

Personal preferences aside. I can understand the reasoning behind cars like the fit. It addresses the real concern many have about small cars. It is bigger inside than it looks. I believe Nissan did a good job in advertising the Versa as overcoming what many felt when sitting in one of the old sub compacts. Auto-claustrophobia. while things like high roof line and short hood may make the car look less than stylish it serves a real purpose when you have to move people or even boxes that you simply couldn't have shoe horned into a first generation Accord or Corolla for that matter.

For a second car many of these new sub compacts should do pretty well. But unlike some of the earlier posts I don't believe we will ever see a small sub compact diesel here in our state. I just can't see CARB and the greenies standing still for it.

Mr_Shiftright

I measured the xA against the Mazda 3-speed, which is a bigger vehicle, and dimensions were almost identical inside. The Mazda had about 4 more inches behind the rear seats that was it...but interior cargo space, height, width, etc just about the same.

So intelligent design counts for a lot.

The MINI is amazingly roomy, too. I fit much better in it than in the xA and with the rear seats down, I bet I could stuff a lot of things in there....sure, it's not a family car but two adults and luggage/groceries, no problemo.

ateixeira

I bet the rear seat of the xA has more space, though. The Mini's front seat nearly touches the rear seat, so no room for knees. It's really a 2+2.

If you want a big back seat, look at an xB, they are HUGE. Flat floor so even 3 adults can sit across comfortably.

-juice