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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    "I wouldn't want to drive the Smart on any American highway and no one else will either.

    I would!

    What does vehicle size have to do with highway travel? As long as it can achieve highway speeds as quickly as the average vehicle and has adequate handling, size is irrelevant. Even a large car can be suitable to THAT venue ;) .
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Ride quality can be a factor as well. Our Civic ('93 Gen 5) which had exceptional ride quality for a car in that price range at the time, and a very sophisticated suspension, would still follow the ruts in the freeway left by trucks. It would also lose its balance on "rippled" pavement. I am wondering how a Smart would do in these situations. Granted, the roads around here suck, but as far as midwestern places I could see using a Smart, this is one.
    Also, with a speed limit of 70 and speed of traffic typically around 10 over, I think you might need the Amish buggy warning triangle on the back of the Smart. There have been times while riding a GS500 that I was worried about keeping up.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    One of my clients has a Zap imported smart and he drove it back from VT after he bought it. On the highway you do have to be careful about crosswinds as the low weight and high profile will cause the car to drift easily.

    Other then that the ride was ok but you have to stay on top of it in high cross wind situations or if a Semi passes you at high speed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There's stability issues and also visibility issues, both from the driver's seat and from other cars trying to see you.

    The Yaris type of vehicle has a high kind of "bench" seating and plenty of glass area. It's not great in crosswinds either but manageable because of FWD. The back end goes wherever you point the front--a little power to the front wheels seems to help.

    Another issue with the Smart is short wheelbase. Great for autocross, hell for long distance driving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Logic flaws that allow opinion to masquerade as fact are especially frightening. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy having a motorcycle.

    You MUST be kidding...

    You talk about practicality and then suggest that I move to a different city? Give up my job, yank the kids out of school, sell the house. That's practical how, exactly? :D

    Motorcycles are inherently unsafe, because they offer you no protection and the skill of the average driver in this country is, let's face it, dismal. Half the people can't drive. So yes, that makes a motorcycle unsafe. I've been hit countless times in a car and fortunately never got hurt. Had I had riding I would not have been safe. :sick:

    I can't imagine carrying computer equipment needed for my job on a 2 wheeler, so yes, impractical for me, at least.

    It's far easier to steal a motorcycle than a Civic or Integra. Like I wrote, I've had 3 motorcycles stolen from me. I've never had a car stolen, even when I lived in those same places. Yours odds are much better with a car, even a convertible.

    These aren't flaws in logic, they are the harsh reality of owning a motorcycle in the DC area.

    And by the way, I thoroughly enjoyed having motorcycles. I just got tired of the thefts.

    -juice
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    I can't comment on it specifically, but if it is unsuited to highway use it is because of poor design, not because it is small.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I rode motorcycles for 22 years, and not a scrape. I quit while I was ahead. I am still proud of the fact, however, that I once carried a small bookcase on my Norton.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was lucky enough to avoid all the idiot drivers surrounding me that seem determined to collide with me.\

    I did have one spill - hit an oil puddle while doing a U-turn. Bike came right out from under me. Still don't think there was anything I could have done - is was black asphalt and you just couldn't see the oil.

    -jucie
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You could get a sidecar, you know...

    Carry stuff, a passenger, and it's much higher profile and easier to see. Think of the Smart as a fully-enclosed bike with a sidecar ;)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Motorcycles are inherently unsafe, because they offer you no protection and the skill of the average driver in this country is, let's face it, dismal. Half the people can't drive. So yes, that makes a motorcycle unsafe. I've been hit countless times in a car and fortunately never got hurt. Had I had riding I would not have been safe.

    I'm glad to hear you were okay. On a motorcycle (or bicycle), perhaps you would've been paying more attention to the situation and avoided the incident altogether.

    I was being somewhat tongue in cheek when I suggested moving somewhere warm, but given how far people commute so they can have their humonga-house in the burbs, who am I to say what is practical.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nope - I was rear-ended, and it's wasn't even due to a quick/short stop.

    I had actually been standing still for a while. A Blazer rear-ended a Prius, which was behind me, and that pushed the Prius in to my car.

    On a motorcycle, I would have been hurt. No amount of attentiveness could have foreseen that type of accident. The driver error occured 2 cars behind me.

    Around here, I'd be rich if I got a nickel for every time I saw someone driving while talking on their cell phone, putting on makeup, or even reading the paper. Do I want to share a road with those folks on a motorcycle?

    Not even with a side car.

    Perhaps it's because I'm a dad now. When I was younger and rode motorcycles I had little to lose, guess I didn't care as much.

    -juice
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I've been hit countless times in a car

    How many times is "countless?" What were the circumstances? Sounds like you have very bad luck.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sadly, yes. I am some how surrounded by the worst drivers. Let's see...

    I was hit on Washington circle twice. Both people turning right from the left lane. :sick:

    A Cherokee turned left from the right lane - right into my Escort. :sick:

    A girl drove diagonally across a parking lot and slammed my Escort. I was PARKED! :mad:

    A brand new Saab pulled out and slammmed into the side of my Miata. :sick:

    A Saturn with no ABS slammed in to the rear of my Forester. :sick:

    And now, a Blazer pushes a Prius, which slams in to my Miata. :sick:

    My step mom backed her Taurus in to my Escort but at least I wasn't in it.

    Note I wasn't at fault in any of these, and in most of them I basically would have been run over if I were in a motorcycle.

    -juice
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    How many times is "countless?"

    You do realize that countless means you cannot tell how many times.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Way too literal. :P

    Regarding the tall, narrow electric's handling ability, I'm surprised that no one pointed out the the center of gravity of an electric is generally far lower than for a conventionally powered vehicle. Someone did mention that it was heavy for its size... it's all those batteries mounted beneath the floor.

    james
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Did I misread or does that thing use conventional lead-acid batteries?

    If so, I'm definitely not a buyer.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    that when big vehicles and little vehicles collide, the little vehicle usually loses! :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bummer for that Hummer.

    -juice
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I told you those little Hummers were dangerous!
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That is an H2 SUT.

    Just shows that BOF is bad in an accident.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Shifty, I hope you were joking. If that would of been a subcompact car like a Scion, the Fire Department could of went to the local "Stop N' Go" and bought a can opener to remove the contents inside. :P

    Rocky
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No, that was an H2 SUT. :D

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    this type of accident would be bad for ANY vehicle. I don't think body-on-frame, unitized, big or little really has much bearing on it. The frame of a school bus sits up so high that just about any car or light truck is going to ride up under it. Also, big vehicles will often do poorly when they hit an immoveable object (and I'd think an 8 or 9 ton school bus qualifies here), because the added mass of the large vehicle will then work against it, causing more force on the point of impact.

    Something like a Scion might have hit the bus and bounced off of it, instead of sticking to it. As it is, it looks like that H2 was going fast enough to push the rear of the bus at an angle and make its rear wheel hop the curb.

    I also found a picture of the driver's side of that H2, which doesn't look near as bad. That might be one reason that the H2 got penetrated so deeply, because all the force was being applied to only about half of the front of it. I wonder, if it hit squarely on the back of that bus, if it would've still penetrated as far?

    I'm thinking that in a situation like this, you might actually be better off with a lower-slung car. As long as you duck, at least!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    ouch. actually, that still looks pretty bad to me. there is NO room between that steering wheel and seat any more. Between that and the position of the ceiling, I'd be in BIG trouble!

    i also gotta wonder how fast you need to be driving to get crushed that badly and push a BUS that far!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    My guess is the picture was taken after the occupant was extracted. This means they already used the jaws of life to shred the vehicle. What you are seeing is likely post-chain-saw H2.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    A Scion xB mini-van would look like a giant bug splatter on the school bus. In all seriousness do you really think the driver would of lived through that accident in a scion xB ?

    I don't.....

    Rocky
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Dry pavement during the day. I wonder too how this type of accident could happen. Did the driver pass out or something.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    You really can't make a comparison like that.

    With a lighter vehicle, the crash dynamics would be completely different. It would not have the force to get so far under the bus and push it along.

    I'll try to resist the comment that the driver of a hummer may be less attentive than that of an xB .... oh darn, i already made the comment.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    But the xB doesn't have much of a hood to absorb a impact. It reminds me of those old VW vans from the 60's, 70's? that you often see Arabs driving or see peace signs plastered all over the bumpers.

    Rocky
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's a straw man argument Rocky...the point is that a Scion didn't hit it, so we don't know what would have happened. A Hummer did, and thus its reputation for being "safe" due to its size and ruggedness is shattered in this instance.

    All accident dynamics are different. Maybe a lighter car would have stopped sooner. Maybe even being three feet smaller than a Hummer would have saved the day. Maybe the light car would have glanced off like a BB. Maybe a small car could have swerved in time.

    Anyway, now we do know that Hummers are as vulnerable as any other vehicle to destruction.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,670
    Probably was on a cellphone.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    wonder what happens to the cell phone when the air bag goes off?

    You do have to wonder how someone can plow into something that big and that yellow....
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    You do have to wonder how someone can plow into something that big and that yellow....

    ROTF !!!! :D Very true shifty.

    "straw-man arguement" LOL :P

    Well perhaps but the hummer, did save his life right ? He had to be going pretty darn fast to cause that much damage and if the bus would of instead been a yaris..... :blush:

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    there's no way to predict how an accident will turn out except in very controlled laboratory conditions. I think one thing that might be in favor of the Hummer is that it was strong enough to push that school bus forward and up over the curb. That, in and of itself, stretched out the deceleration distance and lessened the blow somewhat. A lighter vehicle would not have been able to do that, and as a result would have been forced to decelerate much quicker. But then, since you'd have 2000-2500 pounds to declerate versus 5000 or more, you wouldn't have all that mass piling into the relatively immoveable bus, exacerbating the forces on the part of the H2 that's getting crushed.

    There's no way to prove this except to try it, but I have a feeling that something like an xA or xB would have bounced off. Body-on-frame vehicles tend to have a lower center of gravity than similar unitized cars, with those heavy frames, and with the body just bolted on intstead of integrated, in an impact like this the body will often peel back, right off the frame. And since this thing is so heavy, that works against it in this case.

    With something like a unitized xA or xB, the structure isn't going to peel back as easily. A unitized car doesn't have a full frame but it does have a sub-frame up front. The sub-frame, would probably crumple as the body structure above it crumples, and this is going to help absorb the impact, as opposed to having a vulnerable body peel back off the frame.

    Now if a school bus was designed so that you couldn't ride up under it like Buford T. Justice inadvertently creating a 1977 LeMans convertible, then I think a bigger, heavier vehicle, preferably one where you sit further back from the front, would tend to be safer. But if you get into a similar situation as this Hummer, I think whether you've been naughty or nice this past year probably has a bigger bearing on whether you live or die than what you're driving. Unless you hit it with another school bus, maybe. And even that wouldn't be a sure bet. I'm sure running one 8-9 ton vehicle on a beefy ladder frame into the back of another at a good rate of speed is one helluva bone shaker!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL :D good post andre, I enjoyed the read. ;)

    Rocky
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I remember this really really sad case where a friend of a friend bought a new Volvo in order to be safe in a collision and strange as it sounds....she's under a freeway ramp and a truck above her jack knifes and drops about ten boulders on her roof. I mean, really...accidents are in the hands of God or Fate or something totally unpredictable.

    You can improve your odds somewhat but IMO only the fool gets behind the wheel and thinks they are in a "safe" car.

    My dad used to tell me: "Drive like everyone else is trying to kill you!" A bit extreme (he was a war vet) but you know, pretty good advice---worked for me (so far, knock knock).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The xB is more nimble and might have avoided the bus. ;)

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Back around 1979 or so, one of my mother's friends was in a serious crash on the DC Beltway. She was in a VW Bug on a merge ramp to get on the interstate, behind one of the newer downsized Chevy Impala wagons, and a cabover 18 wheeler coming up behind her. Already this doesn't sound good, does it?

    Well, instead of speeding up and merging, the Impala stopped. My mother's friend had no choice but to stop. Alas, the trucker must have thought he had a choice, because he didn't! He whacked the Bug, and about the best way to describe it was that he turned it sideways, made it roll, and drove over top of it. Then he hit the Impala, which suddenly ceased to exist aft of the B-pillar. Talk about a crash course in downsizing!

    The trailer came unhitched and flipped on its side, getting hit by another car (not sure what kind of car). The truck tractor went over an embankment and ran into some trees.

    Out of all the vehicles involved and the damage done to the cars, the only one who really got hurt was the truck driver, who broke both of his legs. Luckily, there was nobody in the back seat of the Impala. My Mom's friend ended up trapped, upside-down, in her little squashed cube of a Bug, with gasoline leaking. She had to be cut out, but only had fairly minor bumps and bruises.

    Just goes to show that no matter what you're driving, often it's simply fate that determines the outcome of an accident.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL.....

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    The xB is more nimble and might have avoided the bus.

    Not if it was the same person as the Hyundai Elantra driver that tried to fit it up under the back of my pickup last night! :mad:

    Oftentimes, the type of car is totally irrelevant. It's the nut behind the wheel that's the key factor.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Are you that pickup driver that pulled out in front of me at the very last minute last night?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Sorry snake, I can't take credit for that one, unless you're a heavyset young female driving a black '03 Elantra sedan, and were hanging out in DC last nite! :P

    Actually, I was just sitting in a long line of traffic at a light. I was in the center lane of three lanes of traffic. Traffic started to move, ever so slowly, so I let my foot off the brake and drifted up a bit, and when I had to stop again, I felt a slight bump in back. The girl had tried to go around me into the left lane, but misjudged and cut it too close.

    Damage was pretty minor this time. Bent my bumper just a bit on the left side. Ordinarily I wouldn't have even worried about it, but it's a brand-new bumper! It put a deep crease in the front of her passenger side fender, and looked like it might have scratched the side marker light as well.

    My last rear-ender, on Friday the 13th of all days, was a bit worse. A 2000 Infiniti I-30 went up under my bumper, bending the bumper and smashing the bumper brackets. And the Infiniti came out really bad in that one. Smashed the hood, front fascia, headlights, grille, driver's side fender, and pushed the radiator and its surround back a bit.

    That first rear-ender made me glad I was in a bigger vehicle. A smaller vehicle would've taken more damage and been thrown forward much more violently. But this time around, the vehicle sizes were pretty much irrelevant.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Well close, mine is black but its a wagon and a '00. If mine would have happened a few hours earlier when the roads were still unplowed I would be looking for a new car right now.

    I was in the left lane which had one or two cars waiting at a red light. The right lane had about 8-10 cars waiting at the light. That line of cars ended right before a light into a shopping center and that light was green for the street I was on. So what happens, this truck coming out of the shopping center makes a right turn on red into the left lane right in front of me. :sick:

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    many have heard today's news that these little cars didn't do all that well in the latest IIHS testing:

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061219/AUTO01/612190407/1148- -

    Only Versa avoided any "poor" ratings, while Yaris did so also, but only by having the optional side airbags. Without them, it scored "poor" in side impact.

    I love these little cars and think part of the solution to this problem is to get a lot of these hugely oversized SUVs off the road, but I can also appreciate the POV of someone, especially with kids, who skips over this car class in a quest for more safety...

    edit...one big criticism from the IIHS was head restraints - they said only the Versa's would adequately protect against whiplash, and went on to talk about "active head rests". Someone educate me - I have read this term before, but I don't know what "active" head rest is, vs an "inactive" head rest???

    The Scion xB got extra criticism because among the cars in this class, it was the only one that didn't offer side airbags as at least an option.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Only Versa avoided any "poor" ratings, while Yaris did so also, but only by having the optional side airbags. Without them, it scored "poor" in side impact.

    If it's any consolation though, I believe most cars do pretty poorly in side-impact testing, regardless of size. Seems like whether or not they have the side curtain airbags is the deciding factor, not necessarily how big the car itself is.

    Oh, I got to experience on Saturday what some of you guys say about how bigger cars aren't necessarily bigger inside in some dimensions. I went to a test drive event where they pitted a Ford Fusion against and Accord and a Camry. I found the Fusion and Camry to both have bad headroom, most likely because they were equipped with sunroofs. Wow, and I thought my buddy's Mark V was bad! The Accord seemed fine to me, though.

    I thought all the cars had good legroom though, which is usually my chief complaint.

    And it seems like trunks on cars are getting less versatile. Even if they have plenty of room inside, the openings just aren't big enough to fit large items in. The tapered rear ends cause the opening to narrow a bit from side to side, and with the way the back window overlaps the trunk, it's getting to the point that they might as well just make these things hatchbacks, along the lines of the old Sundance/Shadow, where they LOOKED like sedans at a quick glance, but the little rear deck and back window were all one piece that raised at once.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=20

    A Mercury Grand Marquis received worse side impact ratings than my Fit, and if you search other large cars, you'll find many big ones with less than Good ratings, and yes the side impact tests can be compared across class of vehicles.

    And the rear impact test are mostly measurements of the distance between the head and head restraint, which can vary based on the person's seat recline position.
  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    You asked, "I don't know what "active" head rest is, vs an "inactive" head rest???

    Inactive head rests just stay there at impact. Active head rests were first introduced some 10 years ago by Saab and then Volvo developed its own version. Basically active systems involve sensors that activate a conformational change in the headrest and/or seatback, such that the headrest moves forward to meet the head and better support the head if it whips back after an impact.

    Other manufacturers have developed their own versions. I haven't kept up with advances in this technology lately, maybe someone else can enlighten us further. Thanks.
  • fitluverfitluver Member Posts: 198
    I also found a picture of the driver's side of that H2, which doesn't look near as bad. That might be one reason that the H2 got penetrated so deeply, because all the force was being applied to only about half of the front of it. I wonder, if it hit squarely on the back of that bus, if it would've still penetrated as far?

    Are you kidding? there is nothing left to the driver side! The steering wheel is about six to eight inches off the seat and the engine is about six inches into the driver side.

    That looks awful!

    I chalk it up to someone wasnt paying attention if they hit a big bright yellow bus in front of them at that rate of speed, and they should be locked up for being a craphead.

    Forget comparing it to a small car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Check again. One thing that's VERY telling about the pic of the driver's side of the Hummer is that the steering wheel is still in its original form. Steering wheels are designed to deform on impact with the driver's body. And even in the old days, before collapsible steering columns, the steering wheel would still deform, so that the column could spear you! :surprise:

    I've seen junkyard wrecks where even though the airbag deployed, the force of the impact was still strong enough that the driver and steering wheel came into contact with each other, deforming the steering wheel.

    Anyway, the point that I was originally trying to make was that the reason this H2 got penetrated so far on the passenger side was because essentially, it only hit the bus with 50% of its frontal area. So 100% of the impact had to be absorbed with ~50% of the front of the H2, so it was able to peel it back easily. That's why the driver's side maintained its integrity as well as it did. Yeah, it's still bad, but I've seen worse.

    If the H2 had run dead-on into the back of the bus, it might not have penetrated the passenger cabin as badly overall, since the entire front end was there to absorb the impact, but what might have happened then was less damage to the passenger seat area, but more to the driver's!

    As for comparing it to a small car though, who knows? I agree that this whole thing should be blamed on the driver, not the vehicle. There are just too many variables in an accident to really predict an outcome. A smaller car might have crunched up worse, and definitely wouldn't have been strong enough to push the bus as far forward and up over the curb like that Hummer did. But then, a smaller car might have just hit it and bounced off. That would set up a whole new set of variables, forces, etc, but who knows?

    But in the end, I think luck has more to do with whether you live or die in an accident like this, rather than the design or size of the vehicle.

    A few years ago, a buddy of mine T-boned a '90-93 era Accord sedan with a '78 Newport. Punched it in about 2 feet on the passenger side, and literally smashed the passenger seat flat. I remember when I saw the wrecked cars at the junkyard, I asked him if there was anybody in the passenger seat, and he said yes. And the real shocker is that she was relatively unhurt! It turns out she wasn't wearing her seatbelt, and was arguing with her boyfriend who was driving. When they got hit, she got thrown over toward his side, but also up to the dashboard area. Luckily, the windshield glass popped out of the car right at that moment. I think once the cars came to rest, she was actually hanging out the windshield. By looking at the damage to the car, you'd think that a passenger would have been killed, but sometimes, luck is on your side.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    We just had a fatal accident here in CO yesterday where someone in a Toyota 4Runner ran into the back of a school bus out on the plains NE of Denver.

    From the pictures, the hood and roof were pushed back to the B-pillar at the very least. Commentary was that the driver had made no attempt to slow down before striking the bus.

    I suspect that if that person was driving an H2, the same result would have occurred.
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