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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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Comments

  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    I guess I can say, after buying a Matrix yesterday, that the seating position just isn't good enough in these small cars.

    I rented the Fit, my second choice, for a weekend and just couldn't find a comfortable driving position. :cry:
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    What was wrong?? steering wheel too far, seat too low/high, etc? Was this with a manual or auto?
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Don't just blame small cars...also blame Cadallic for having every one of their cars get poor ratings on rear crash protection:
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?cadillac

    and Chevy Cavalier for getting Poor front crash ratings for the past 10 years
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=294

    and for Chevy Impala, Silverado, Trailblazer and Uplander for getting Poor ratings on rear crash tests
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?chevrolet

    And every Buick for getting Poor rear scores:
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?buick

    And Lexus ES 330, GX 470, and RX for getting Poor rear impact scores.
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?lexus
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Did you get the optional armrest? It'll change your life.
  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    It was a Fit automatic.

    When the seat was forward, my right foot was folded back, which killed my ankle and back. However, my left foot was flat on the floor and was very comfortable.

    When the seat was further back, the steering wheel was too far away, and it felt decidedly strange to rest my left foot on the fabric where a dead pedal normally goes. There isn’t a dead pedal there, so I assume that you are not supposed to put your foot there! I guess I would need both a dead pedal and a telescopic steering wheel to be completely comfortable in this position.
  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    Well, it is an XR with armrest, cruise, A/C, keyless entry ... :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, well, you're right in that there's nothing like infinitely variable seat adjustments from power seats. I think you'll get used to most of it except that ankle thing sounds problematic.

    I can't say my seating is IDEAL but it's.....okay....I went from kinda unhappy to pretty satisfied after driving it a while.
  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    Yeah, well, you're right in that there's nothing like infinitely variable seat adjustments from power seats.

    Just to clarify, the 2003 Matrix that I bought doesn't have power seats.

    And its seating position also leaves something to be desired. At night, I get glare in the upper, left corner of the windshield, a reflection of the bottom inch or so of the gauges. I definitely know when the cruise control is on!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    any different from the Corolla upon which it's based? My uncle has an '03 Corolla, and I don't care for its seating position, but for some reason I don't remember the Matrix as being as bad. But then, it's been several years since I've driven a Matrix (well, it was actually a Vibe), while I have much more experience driving my uncle's Corolla. So I might have not been in the Matrix long enough for it to bother me.
  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    Oops ... re-reading my original post, I can see that I may have created some confusion as to which car I was talking about. My post should have read:

    After buying a Matrix yesterday, I feel justified in saying that the seating position just isn't good enough in small cars like the Honda Fit, etc. Otherwise, I would have bought the Fit.

    I was talking about the Fit, not the Matrix. It's funny, since I look at the Matrix as a station wagon and not a small car at all. :blush:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    No, I know what you meant, that the Matrix fits you fine. I was just wondering how it compares to the Corolla though. I know they're the same basic car underneath, but that's not a guarantee that the seating position is going to be the same.

    With my uncle's Corolla, it doesn't have enough legroom for me, and the steering wheel is too low, even in the most upright position. It forces me to sit bowlegged.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I agree that a telescopic steering wheel is a great addition on any car. As far as the dead pedal, I just rest my left foot in the left corner. The rubber floormats I bought are big enough that my left foot isn't on the fabric of the floor, but on the rubber floor mat. I found the Versa to have a better seating position. And the Corolla. I didn't like the seating position in the Matrix at all.
  • mwqamwqa Member Posts: 106
    That's a good point, although it wouldn't help me (the steering wheel was just too far away).

    The Matrix driving position is a bit weird. I have a manual and the shifter is half way up the dash. It’s lucky that I do have the armrest to rest my elbow on; otherwise it would be a bit of a chore to use. I find that I use my fingertips a lot with it, too. I like a shifter on the floor, but maybe it’s just something to get used to.

    It is an interesting seating position – very different from both my Mazda 323 and the Fit.

    The worse thing about the Matrix is the styling. Black interior and small windows. Yuck! I much prefer the styling of a Fit or a Versa.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    The whole idea of the dash shifter on the Matrix is for driving with both hands on the steering wheel it allow for faster shifting. Great for a road rally, but in real driving if you're using the left hand for steering and the right for shifting, then you're moving your right arm up to the shifter. But I'm done with manual transmissions for now, since my Fit is an auto. I just don't think the high seating position of the Fit, Versa, Matrix, etc work with a manual. For me the foot position is too strange when you're sitting upright. I had a '91 RX-7 that was about 4' tall and it was great for shifting because your legs were stretched out and the shifter poked out of the armrest. For me, that was a great position for shifting and using the clutch.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    It's funny, since I look at the Matrix as a station wagon and not a small car at all.

    Believe it or not, the matrix is classified as a subcompact in the fleet magazines that I subscribe to.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Tiny vehicles fare poorly in side, front crash tests; death rate higher in single-car crashes.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061219/AUTO01/612190407/1148- - /AUTO01

    "Like I said before size does matter most of the time and surprisingly many of y'all disagreed with me."

    Rocky
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    seem to jive with this data.

    image

    More Data

    Even more data.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well after living for a year with a genuine, bona-fide subcompact (Scion xA) I've come to the following conclusions.

    (true or false)

    1. A subcompact "wagon" cannot be used by a family of four in normal local activities....FALSE

    2. A subcompact isn't fun to drive....FALSE

    3. Subcompacts tend to be buzzy at high speeds and susceptible to gusty winds, passing trucks, etc. TRUE

    4. Subcompacts are dangerous...NO DATA

    5. Subcompacts are small and agile enough to avoid accidents....TRUE

    6. Subcompacts feel "cheap".....body/interior/engine/fit & finish....FALSE....tires, suspension, brakes....TRUE

    7. For a few thousand dollars more, you can buy a dramatically improved car.....FALSE.

    SUMMARY:

    Did I get value for the money? Definitely

    Would I buy a "better" car next time? Probably would upgrade somewhat for a little more room and power.

    If I had to keep this car forever, would I be bummed out? No.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    The accident data assumes that the drivers in smaller cars are equal to the drivers in larger cars. It's possible that people buying the larger cars are older, more concerned about safety, and therefore drive safer. This could partly account for the decreased number of fatal accidents in larger cars.

    I have no data, but it seems like there are more 20-somethings driving small cars than big ones, and 20-somethings have more accidents in general, so the types of drivers may affect these statistics as much as the car? Hard to say.

    But on the side impact tests where the class of cars can be compared, many small cars do better than large ones according to the IIHS tests.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    not that chart again! i don't want to point this forum in the direction others, now shut down, have been.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Its the truth. Yes statistics can be sometimes misleading but that is a truck full of data that makes sense in sequance.

    Cars and trucks have gotten less dangerous over the years but trucks are still more dangerous then cars.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    i said i would not go there, and i won't.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Fine with me.

    How is your Christmas going?? Got all of your shopping done?

    I have a Supercharged range Rover to drive tonight as I am delivering it to the customer tomrorow morning and he only lives about 30 minutes to the west of my house.

    Easier to take the Range home for the night then drive it to his house tomorrow morning.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    i might have my shopping done, but one of my bil's will arrive friday night, so i will be out shopping saturday. ;)
    funny thing, last weekend it was my wife's and my oldest daughter's birthday. one of my daughter's friends got her a wool cap that is reserved for the hockey team players through a friend(the goalie).
    they had to get it out of the coaches vehicle, and he gave the keys to the goalie to get it. the vehicle is a range rover. all they could talk about was getting the keys to 'the range' and being able to sit in it. :)
    i had to ask to see the hat. :)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    How is your Christmas going?? Got all of your shopping done?

    I usually do all my Christmas shopping at the 7-11 Christmas morning. :P

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • havalongavalonhavalongavalon Member Posts: 460
    Hello Mr Shifty,

    Glad to see your 1-year summary. As new owners of an xA (our 3rd family car, intended for teen driver; joined dad's Avalon and mom's 8-seat Pilot) we all enjoy driving the xA and it's now everyone's first choice for short trips with up to 3-4 riders, or 1-2 riders and a lot of stuff in back.

    I generally agree with your observations, except I wonder why you say that "tires, suspension, brakes" feel cheap. True, the suspension is quite stiff (call it "sporty"). But so far I have been completely satisfied with how the xA brakes. And it handles really well in rain, snow and ice with its (new) Bridgestone all-season tires. Has your experience been different?

    Best wishes,

    havalong
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh the brakes and suspension are FINE for normal driving, really. I should have emphasized that they tend to get weak when I PUSH the car to the limits (like I push everything I drive. I'd try to trail brake a bread van if I could).

    What I find annoying is say on Hwy 17 out of Santa Cruz (El Camino del Morte I call it)...we have these high speed sweepers that come up, sometimes with an slight uphill, and the xA gets very squishy. The sway bar and shock braces helped a LOT but it still doesn't feel right. It's not the firmness, it's the "compliance" of the suspension that is lacking. The car doesn't "set" very well when you are at speed and you point it somewhere. The chassis won't stay in one place.

    And I've faded the brakes.

    But then, I've been able to stress the brakes and suspension on much more expensive cars, too.

    You know, design is a compromise with passenger cars--it's built to accomodate the most drivers in most situations.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    hahaha....the highway of death.... That is what some call Ortega Highway.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,718
    could you get something else for the price it would take to get the 'x' right? you need new springs too?
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the closest thing I could get that represented a substantial improvement in handling and braking would be a base MINI at around $21,000. Those are really great handlers.

    So yeah, there is a LOT of room to improve an xA. New springs and shocks, definitely, and wider, lower profile tires. Not sure what to do about the brakes, that's tougher because the rears are drum, so you'd have to fit in an entire rear dead axle from a disk brake car.

    It's not just a matter of stiffening. We've all seen really stiff modified Japanese compacts that will corner on rails on a smooth flat track but would pogo stick into a parking lot if you hit rough roads.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    The links didn't work for me.

    Looking at the table the question that springs to mind is:

    Does involvement in a fatal accident mean that someone in either vehicle died in the crash?

    It makes sense to me that more people would die if one of the parties were a large truck and the other a smaller car.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    It means the person who died died in the type of car listed.

    So in passenger cars the person died in the passenger car. Also keep in mind that most fatal accidents are single car accidents.

    That government stat site seems to be down right now.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    It's an interesting subject.

    Check this study:

    http://www.aceee.org/pubs/t021full.pdf

    Unfortunately i dont know if it is possible to copy from adobe reader, or i would post some highlites.

    chart on page 4 is interesting. The relative performance of toyota and honda is somewhat a surprise. tough to divide the type of driving/driver and the kill rates.
  • fitman548fitman548 Member Posts: 172
    Video of a SmartCar hitting a concrete wall at 70MPH.

    http://www.veoh.com/videos/e25148&source=embedVideo
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    70mph directly into a hard wall is pretty much a death-sentance for most cars and the occupants in anything smaller than a Semi. ie - it's time to roll the dice because an ambulance is going to be needed reguardless.

    So it's a little unfair to judge it just on that video. Crash tests are all done at 35mph anyways - about 1/4 the energy.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Wow, thats amazing. There is like no deformation of the passenger cabin. It looked like even the footwells were in tact. That is completely remarkable. The driver wouldn't have gotten squished by the car, although the force of the negative Gs from going from 70 to 0 in less than a second might prove to be too much. That would be the case in any car though.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    The little car slowed the driver seat area in a very short distance hence a very high deceleration rate would have been experienced by the driver. If the car has a longer distance for crush so that the car slows the driver seat area over a longer distance (a longer period of time) then the deceleration rate experienced by the driver would be less. It might be better if the car had more deformation rather than being stiff because that would protect the driver better.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If the car has a longer distance for crush so that the car slows the driver seat area over a longer distance

    Hate to tell you this going from 70 to 0 in two feet isn't much better than in one foot.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    small, lightweight cars tend to have an advantage over heavier cars. When running into something that's simply not going to budge, no matter WHAT you hit it with, extra weight works against you and increases the forces on the impact area.

    Another thing that probably helped that SMART is that it was so lightweight that it bounced and then shot sideways, which helped dissipate some of the force of the impact. If it had just hit the barrier and stuck to it like, say, running a '69 Camaro into a bulldozer (Vanishing Point), the damage would have been a lot worse. And a larger, heavier vehicle with a lower center of gravity might have been more likely to stick.

    I wonder what kind of effect that bouncing would have on the vehicle's occupants, though? One one hand, the initial impact might be lessened (i.e., bouncing up and to the right as opposed to just hitting and sticking), but I'm sure the bouncing and shooting off to the right would have some pretty nasty forces all their own.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I wonder what kind of effect that bouncing would have on the vehicle's occupants, though? One one hand, the initial impact might be lessened (i.e., bouncing up and to the right as opposed to just hitting and sticking), but I'm sure the bouncing and shooting off to the right would have some pretty nasty forces all their own.

    That was my point. I think the people would be intact on the outside but their insides might be creamed. Like I said, this isn't car specific, there is no good way to absorb that much energy that fast and not pass alot of it on to the passengers, even if the cabin is intact.

    Also, that '69 Camaro weighs less than a new Accord.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    engineering feat, IMO.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    which sub won the sales award last year? Despite not having a full 12 months on sale, Toyota managed to sell 70,000+ Yarii. I call that success, especially when they made the business case at 50K annual sales...

    And now gas is $3/gallon again, what a shock. Honda dealers still can't keep the Fit on the lots for more than a day.

    And in the "curious sightings" category, I drove past the import lot in Benicia (west coast, Bay Area, CA) the other day. This is a yard usually filled with cars of various Korean makes, and it's enormous - there have to be 10K cars in there on any given day. It is a transit lot for cars fresh off the boat that are on their way to dealers.

    Well anyway, the day I drove by, I was intrigued to see it was filled NOT with "various Korean makes", but rather with a single make and model - the Chevy Aveo. That's right, Aveos stretched all the way to the horizon, thousands and thousands and thousands of them. It was quite a sight. :-P

    Guess the demand for Aveo hasn't let up either...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    but I sat in a Chevy Aveo at the DC auto show. It had a light brown leather interior, and I have to say I was pretty impressed. Just from the view inside the car, and not being able to see the outside of it, it seemed like a much more expensive car than it really was.

    Now, here comes the embarassing part. The same car was at the Philly auto show, and we checked it out again. I read the MSRP sticker, and noticed that it wasn't even real leather...they had it marketed as "leatherette", and it was something like a $295 option, IIRC. Interesting that they're getting to the point that they're learning how to make leather-looking vinyl even in bargain basement cars! It was good enough to fool me! Or maybe it's just my eyesight starting to go? :surprise:

    And yeah, I've noticed gas creeping up again. Just yesterday, the local Citgo was $2.459 for 87 octane. Not too long ago it had been $2.259. Sometimes I don't fill up for up to two weeks, so I don't always notice the spikes and drops right away.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Hmhh I am pretty sure it was a charger not a camaro in vanishing point. Not sure of the year though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If it's a decent quality vinyl, that's not a bad idea. It's much easier to wipe up spills, and it can be a lot more durable than cloth (depends on the grade, of course).

    That Smart's structure did remarkably well, in fact it can take an impact that a human cannot take, so it's about as strong a structure as is practical, maybe even too strong.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Hmhh I am pretty sure it was a charger not a camaro in vanishing point. Not sure of the year though.

    It was a 1970 Hemi Challenger that they used in Vanishing Point. However, in the crash scene at the end, they substituted an engineless Camaro, which took a dive into the bulldozers and just kinda stuck there, rear-end up in the air. I had thought it was a 1969, but searching around on the web, looks like it was a '67.

    There was a '68-70 Charger in the bad remake, though. There was a scene where a cop ditched his police cruiser for his own personal Charger. His reasoning? "You think we're going to catch him in that dog-pie Chevy?! It takes a MOPAR to catch a Mopar!" :shades:
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    ahah I remember that bad remake and I remember that scene. I must have gotten my movies mixed up.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    If it's a decent quality vinyl, that's not a bad idea. It's much easier to wipe up spills, and it can be a lot more durable than cloth (depends on the grade, of course).

    Well, I'd imagine that anyone raised on MB-Tex or whatever BMW calls their leatherette, this Aveo's interior still might not make the grade, but I'd say it was still a pretty high quality. I guess the only advantage that cloth would have is that on a really hot day, it wouldn't burn you as badly. Unless they put metal buckles into the design, like they did with my '89 Gran Fury. :mad:

    And I guess leather would still "breathe" a bit better than vinyl, no matter how nice said vinyl is. So leather might still be more comfortable on a hot day, too.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    In a car like that a synthetic might even be more serviceable and last longer than a real leather.

    Myself I like a good plastic on the dash and doors that's not going to wear off the outer layer in 10 years if I keep the car that long and lose the outer surface sheen. I don't want the nice soft plastics that crack after two or three years in the hot sunshine. On seats I still like the good quality cloth in my 98 Limited leSabre. My 03 has leather because my wife made me and they don't sell anything else with cloth unless you buy the lower level car. I almost bought a used Park Avenue when I found all after that date had leather seats and my dealer had a used one on the lot.

    Everytime someone complains about hard plastics in GMs as if noone else uses them (Honda does, I can vouch for that after Tuesday) I cringe. It's the durability of the plastic that I care about.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    > I guess leather would still "breathe"

    Leather gets those creases from use that is like patina on antiques. But I still like cloth. I may be the only one, though... Those creases in leather require a toothbrush to clean well. I did my Buick seats last September... Just washing with water and cloth didn't do it.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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