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Comments
Actually they are included with the heated leather seat package on the XLT. It's a $990 option and not hard to find, at least in my area. Along with the heated leather seats and heated side mirrors you get a 10-way power driver's seat with power lumbar.
I'm sort of torn on that one. We had them in our Escape and never used them because it was garage kept. Even when it sat outside in my wife's work parking lot all day they were never necessary and in fact, she didn't even know how to work them as I found out later on. I did use them once in my dad's '96 Sable and they work great but they seem unnecessary to me but probably nice to have in case you do need them. Plus they don't cost too much either. YMMV depending on where you live because it seems you could use them more often?
The one thing I remember using all the time was the InstaClear windshield on my dad's '87 Taurus. It melted snow, ice, fog, you name it in a matter of seconds. Unfortunately it chipped/cracked easily and was very expensive to replace as he found out not once, but twice!
I would LOVE to buy a domestic automaker product. But ALL of my domestic maker cars I have owned (1975 Chevy, 1988 Ford, 1989 Mercury, 1991 Ford, 2002 Pontiac) have all been complete disasters from service to quality to reliability.
I have had several Ford and GM cars and all but one went well past 100K before needing anything but routine maintenance. The one that didn't was more due to some idiot making a left turn in front of me than anything else (it was never the same afterwards). I have found them to be no more worse, and sometimes better, than my sisters Toyotas.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have never heard of any car (other than a Kia) built in the late 90s or later that didn't make it over 100,000 miles with out too much expense.
There's a really bad perception problem out there with domestic car makers. I don't think anyone will argue that in the 80s and early 90s, domestic cars were not as reliable as Asian imports. Unfortunately, cars change faster than people's perceptions. And also, unfortunately, there are no scientific numbers out there to say how far behind (if at all) domestic cars manufacturers are when it comes to reliability. And for those that think CR is good measuring stick, I would argue it measures perception much more than reality, though that is a discussion for another time.
Sorry to get off topic, but I would argue you’ve either gotten very unlucky with you 2002 car, or maybe you didn’t find one of the good domestic models.
You know that the number of 2002 anything that has over 100K miles will be rather small.
But I agree with you perception changes slowly, even slower if you don't have experience with the item in question. Even if every car Ford and GM make reaches 250K miles without anything more than routine maintenance people who drive Toyotas and Hondas will look at them as cheap and unreliable.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree that CR may be titled towards the imports but my real world experience tells me they are accurate. I'm sorry if I offend anyone but most of the domestics don't compare.
The next time you speak with a mechanic (non-dealer) ask them where the majority of their business comes from. Most of the answers will be that it is from intake and head gaskets....then ask them how many are Honda, Toyota, etc.
Like I said, I would love to be able to buy domestic but my confidence is gone. I thought the 2002 Pontiac would win me over and shift me back to domestics since it was a beautiful, sporty van and rode well, but it did just the opposite. I just make sure the "foreign" car I buy is made here in the USA, with high North American parts contents, and not a model that is imported.
I dunno. My 1988 Buick Park Avenue and 1989 Cadillac Brougham seem to defy those odds. I had my 1994 Cadillac Deville at 96K before trading it for my Seville STS. No major problems there.
Oh, and the tranny went out on my Mom & stepdad's '99 Altima. But just in case you all think I'm out to slam the Japanese, well, my uncle's '97 Silverado just got its tranny rebuilt, around the 110,000 mile mark. Its SECOND rebuild. I think the first was around 70,000 miles.
And a guy at work bought a brand-new Lincoln LS, when they first came out. Transmission went out almost immediately. Then it had problems with the cooling fan. Then some other electrical problem. Then I think the tranny was about to crash again. It was such a lemon that the dealer got him into a year-newer V-8 LS for not much more money. I forget the exact financial details, though.
Another guy here at work had the 3.8 in his Windstall self destruct around the 90,000 mile mark. I think the bill for that was around $5,000.
Oh, and I do know someone who recently killed the engine of a 1998 or so Malibu. But it had around 180,000 miles on it, so I guess it was entitled. :P
Now, I know these are all just random examples, but they do drive home the point that modern vehicles, both foreign and domestic, CAN have major failures before the 100,000 mile mark, and they're not as rare as you might think.
As for mechanics, that last time I was at a garage, I saw more foreign cars than domestic. ( I know I'm a loser for counting) But what I saw means nothing. What some people say or think means nothing. These forums are filled with people who say things like "My Chevy last 300,000 miles" which I'm sure it, but that doesn't mean anything.
I guess my point is that there is no data that I am aware of that can support a blanket statement like "most of the domestics don't compare".
I can see two ways to back up that statement. The best would be if all manufactures released their warranty numbers. People could then see how often every model breaks down and how much it costs to repair. The other way is if a study followed roughly 1000 of every model/year of car and recorded all maintenance and repairs performed on the car.
By the way, I'm sorry for this post. I'm tempted not to post it, because I'm afraid I'm starting to sound more whiney, and less like I'm have a discussion. Please don't feel like you need to respond.
There is a lot of data to support that statement, or at least elements of that statement. JD Power, the Consumer Report surveys all indicate it, while the federal Office of Defects Investigation provides information about technical service bulletins and recalls. You can also find information from sources such as Intellichoice and the various enthusiast magazines that do their own occasional owner surveys.
There are certainly some Big 2.5 cars that are quite reliable, and there are certainly some Japanese cars that aren't terribly good. But overall, it is fair to say that most Hondas and Toyotas are going to be more reliable than most Chevys and Fords. It's not true in every single case, but it's true often enough that the general accuracy of the comment applies.
But a survey is a survey. It measures opinions just as much as, if not more than, evidence. Like the JD Power survey gave the first Minis horrible numbers because they didn't have cup holders. That has nothing to do with reliability. And consumer reports is a survey of only people who subscribe to consumer reports AND feel the need to respond to a survey. That is not scientific data. No voluntary survey can be completely trusted.
That being said, I believe, on an average for all their products, Honda and Toyota vehicles are more reliable than cars made by American companies. My initial point was though that American cars companies DO make reliable cars, but they also make some stinkers. I was responding to the sentiment that a person would buy an American car if an American car company would build a car that lasts over 100,000 miles. I say they do. That, in fact, some of them will last well over 100,000, and are comparable to foreign cars. Just not all of them. (See the Montana mentioned above.)
How's this: 2000 Oldsmobile Alero GLS Coupe. Rack and pinion steering system failure at 21k in 2003. Just out of 3 year warranty. Total cost out of pocket: $3000. GM paid $400.
2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue GL: Through 39k, its had its rotors replaced under warranty at 7k, 2 intermediate steering shafts, a new intake manifold (old one broke and was leaking), a new power window unit (windows wouldn't work), a new O2 sensor, a new ignition switch (how'd like you to be driving on a busy highway and have your car stall out for no reason? Yeah, ask me, I could tell you). 5 new fog lamps (and i barely ever use them). Total cost to me: 0. All under warranty (until Oct 2007). But what happens when the warranty is out?
2004 Chevorlet Malibu Maxx, 19k: 3rd set of rotors. Current ones have 3k on them and are vibrating badly. All the old rotors were resurfaced more than once before replaced. Taillight out 3 teams--circut breaker malfunction (got a new one). 2 pieces of interior trim have fallen off.
Ask any mechanic who has serviced the Malibu about the brakes. Or ask them about the Intrigue steering shafts, which they give out like candy because they are such crap.
I suppose you are going to tell me I'm unlikely. Maybe I am. But at one point do I say enough is enough?
Sorry, but that's simply wrong. The surveys are designed to derive quantitative results re: reliability and repairs, in addition to opinions about the products themselves. It is possible to design a survey to filter for noise, and when the pool of responses are considered and compared to each other, the end result can be fairly accurate.
I have designed surveys before, and it is certainly possible to get meaningful information -- the automakers would not pay millions each year to JD Power if the data and feedback weren't useful. Generally speaking, these automaking surveys are pretty good, and if you compare the results to each other, you'll find that the correlation is pretty solid. Very rarely will you find an instance in which Survey A finds Car X to be highly reliable, while Survey B finds Car X to be garbage, the results tend to be consistent.
It's not just the reliability issues, but how the company takes care of their customers if an unforseen problem crops up. Toyota is famous for their engine sludge in certain models, and Honda had troubles with transmissions in certain V6's. But both automakers stepped up to the plate and admitted they had a problem and gave the owners extended warranties to correct their errors and compensate owners. Honda extended the warranty on the transmissions to 100,000 miles, and they will even replace it after that from what I understand. Do you see GM fixing the bad intake manifold gaskets? NO! Someone told me there is a TSB out on it with an updated gasket available, but they sure won't pay for it if it's out of warranty.
Here's one of my personal examples: My 1989 Mercury had dealer installed A/C before I took delivery of it. It developed a belt squeal shortly thereafter and noticed that the A/C compressor housing was broke where the bolt mount was located. I took it back to the dealer, but my warranty claim was rejected because they said it "doesn't just brake" like that. Then I had to pay them for looking at it and telling me what I had already told them. I wrote a letter to complain to Ford, and they basically said too bad for you. It's also worth noting that the A/C didn't work when I first brought the car home. I lifted the hood to find out they did not plug in a control for it and it then worked fine.
Actually he is right, while the surveys are "scientifically designed" to derive quantitative results there are issues with such surveys. One of the major problems is that the person taking the survey has the tendency to respond in such a way as they think the surveyor wants. Or at the very least go the way that they think the majority goes. This means that if car 'A' has a much better reputation than car 'B' a survey will most likely show this even if in reality both cars are the same.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If a scientist tried to publish results, and then when asked for his evidence refused to produce it, he would be laughed out of the building.
No one outside of CR knows what they get back from their surveys. I would put much more faith in their findings if they published their numbers.
I have a subscription to Consumer reports. Their reliability figures aren't made up or anything, but they are not scientific.
On Delivery: Tire out of balance, bumper scratched, two of four head phones missing, remote control for DVD missing, paint on door cracked, mismatched third row floor mat.
During ownership and fixed under warranty: radio replaced, (the replacement radio spontaneously changed stations), DVD player fixed, lug nut covers replaced, seat belt replaced, wiring harness fixed, driver door handle replaced, sliding door seals replaced, keyless remote replaced, power window switch replaced but still erratic.
Under warranty but never fixed either because they couldn't, it was normal, it is not a warranty item, or I just plain gave up on it: squeak in suspension, pulsating brakes, broken interior trim piece, power mirror jumpy on adjustment, musty smell from HVAC system, crummy paint job, rear brakes grinding, On Star system had trouble recognizing the letter "2", terrible fit and finish inside and out, rattle box/clunk box over bumps, intermittently would not start on crank, intermittently idled rough, horn would occasionally sound on it's own, when I wanted to sound the horn - way too much pressure needed - many missed opportunities, power driver seat would act like the gears were slipping and would lack full range, rear tilt-out window motors would squeal, power sliding door would occasionally lock up or make noise after closing, fluttering sound in air vents, light visible through the bottom of the sliding doors from inside, the rubber trim around the sliding doors on the inside would fall off all of the time, the control panel (locks etc) on the driver door came loose, rubber shim on door fell off, the DVD screen would light up (white) even when it was off and folded up, the chrome in the daytime running lamps was wearing off (sealed unit?), the HVAC fan would sometimes not work on the lowest setting, and last but not least - the underside of the van was rusting badly already!
I bought it new and only put about 32,000 miles on it.
They provide ranges of responses in percentage terms (those little red and black circles correspond to percentages of responses), and exclude responses for nameplates for which the respondent pool is not large enough.
The one problem with CR's methodology is that the only people surveyed are subscribers to the magazine, so to the extent that the survey pool is not representative of the whole, I would expect there to be some noise in the data.
But CR's data correlates closely enough with other sources that it is generally highly credible. Very rarely will you find an instance in which CR survey results are considerably different from what you'd obtain from JD Power or another larger survey. If you take the Chevy Cobalt as an example, which CR notes as having reliability well below average, not only do you find that JD Power also ranks it below its rivals, but also that the ODI list shows TSB's for the same problems that CR found in its research.
The argument about survey bias between nameplates is also flawed. Survey respondents are provided with the same questions, irrespective of the model chosen, and the questions tend to be fairly neutral. It's not as if the Chevy Cobalt owner is asked, "Boy, your car is a piece of garbage, isn't it?", while the Corolla owner gets a different question, such as "Aren't you happy to own one of the most reliable cars on the road?"
The surveys aren't perfect (and anyone who has conducted surveys knows that there is always a margin of error), but they are generally good enough to get a profile of how a given car is likely to behave, particularly in the case of popular models that generate more survey responses, and therefore should be more accurate. There is no reason to believe that the Honda drivers are less truthful than the Chevy buyers, and with a large data pool, the "outliers" (people who give skewed responses that don't match the norm) will be filtered out by the majority of respondents who provide decent feedback.
You guys have probably heard that GM is selling a stake in GMAC and raising $13 Billion as a result. Considering that GM lost $10 Billion alone in 2005 and GMAC was about the only profitable part of GM, this, quite frankly, doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the future of GM with regard to future vehicle purchases.
A lot of the recent GM designs look appealing and I'd like to consider them, but this move to sell off GMAC smacks of desperation to me. I could easily see the execs blowing the money on bonuses for themselves and then dumping th rest of th company into bankruptcy after they burn through this cash.
Rocky
As for the CR percentages, that is percent better or worse than average. That is the only number they give. They don't give what the average is, how many responses they get for each model/year, how many problems on average, and numbers for what type of problems. I would like to see those numbers.
Plus, I'm not so sure a majority of people give decent feedback. I'm not saying that people who buy certain types of cars are dishonest, but rather people might be more willing to over look a small problem on a car they believe is reliable from reports they've read...
Anyway, this will be it for a while for me, but I want to say good discussion. I enjoy a good discourse.
One day when you're near me drop by and I will introduce you to someone who used to work for CR and you can tell him that, he could use the laugh.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Give me some tissues because I'm going to need them to wipe the tears of laughter off my face.
My gawd if that statement isn't a crock.
Rocky
If you drove a car where, say, 6% of all owners reported a specific problem, chances are you would be none the wiser compared to owning a car where, say, 2% of all owners reported a specific problem. Because the odds in both cases are overwhelmingly in your favor of NOT having that problem.
Similarly, what constitutes a "worse than average" car, really isn't that bad. The real question mark then is a "much worse than average" car, which really runs the gamut.
I know I've brought this up before, but I wish CR would eliminate their silly little dots and just give us the danged number! Instead of giving us the little red circle that tells us the car scored "much better than average", which means that 0-2.999~% of respondents had a problem, just TELL us that it's 2.5% or whatever.
Similarly, with a much worse than average car, something like 15% or more respondents have to report a problem for the car to get a black dot. But then, which is it? Did 15.1% of them have a problem or did 98.6% of them? That's a wide range there, folks, and much more critical, than, say the difference between 2.9% which would give you "much better than average" and 9.1%, which would give you "worse than average"
But, what's that old saying about there being 3 different types of lies? Lies, Damned Lies, and CR Statistics? :P
Oh, I forgot the biggest part of the conspiracy - those darn consumers, who would rather put up with crappy treatment of Toyota/Honda dealers (which is actually also reported by CR) than receive red carpet treatment of their Chevy dealer, not to mention supreme family/employee pricing with 15 grand discount.
LOL
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I'd like to see some bona fide proof that CR reliability data is biased. For example, if you can show me that CR data is contradicted by other sources, and that this occurs frequently, I'd like to see some links to reputable sources that prove it.
(Note: I don't care to see links to some stranger's blog -- anybody with a couple of bucks can get a website and post his opinions on the Internet. Rather, I want to see definable, verifiable, measurable results that can be independently fact-checked.)
However, Consumer Guide would always recommend the Intrepid as a good bet for a used car. And the reliability data that MSN autos shows (or used to show) would usually show the Intrepid at being better than average when it comes to transmission/engine repairs. Yet the tranny specifically is one area where the Intrepid in particular and Chrysler in general has been damned for years.
Now I'm not totally dismissing CR's data. But like most things, it goes down better when taken with a grain of salt.
It's funny when I go to msn auto's, yahoo auto's, etc, that the ratings by other real people, are so much different than what I read in consumer reports. I never read horror story's about Toyota or Honda cars, whenever I pick up a copy (which isn't very often) since it was a turn off. I have read in their magazine the horror story's about GM vehicles electronics, warped breaks, etc in the past.
I after reading the magazine, step back and was like wow. Toyota's and Honda's are trouble free and are perfect automobiles. I guess my eyes must be lieing to me when I see a Toyota, Honda, Lexus, with it's emergency flashers on. :confuse:
Rocky
For one, Consumer Guide does not prepare a reliability survey, so its recommendations are not based upon any surveys that it would have conducted. Consumer Guide does use TSB data and its own inspection process to offer conclusions, but it is not routinely asking hundreds of owners to provide data about ownership problems.
Again, the topic here is the surveys. I want to see specific examples that illustrate that CR reliability survey data is vastly different from other reliability data provided by other sources, and data that illustrates that any such discrepancies are common and consistent to particular badges. Opinions and guesses aren't enough.
Then there is a "used car good bet", for which a car would have to have "better than average" reliability with no weight on other factors. Interpid did not make the list either, as it was usually put in average. They did not bash the car (did not put it on the "reliability risk" list), but did not love it, either. For them, it was just another example of a domestic mediocrity of late 90s.
Often domestics suffered low ratings due to unreasonable "off the wall" stickers - many magazines and CR would rate the car using its face value (CR actually also uses invoice as a part of the process). When you had similar sticker price but huge spread on real and perceived value, no rebates considered, it had to lose every time. Add low residuals to that, always percentage of MSRP not actual purchase price, and the thing is dead on arrival. Many domestics look on paper even worse than they really are.
GM made a right move with lowering the stickers - just too little and probably somewhat too late, IMHO.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
No method is perfect, but they are far more flawed than the legitimate professional survey providers. The sample sizes are small, those who post on the sites obviously went out of their way to post on them (the surveys completely lack randomness), the questions are not specific, and there is no verification process to determine whether the posters are legitimate or not.
For example, when Yahoo asks users to rate reliability on a 1-10 scale, what does that mean exactly? No benchmark is provided for providing the ranking. One person's "5" maybe another person's "10", there's simply no basis for comparison. If there is survey data that demands far more caution, it's going to be the user posts on sites such as Yahoo and MSN.
I personally think they didn't want a midwesterners opinion, because we would of gave domestic cars decent scores and it wouldn't of went along with their agenda of making the domestics go belly up.
Rocky
I suppose their is nothing wrong with using CR which is heavily import subscriber biased to re-enforce your purchase decision and make one feel warm and cozy inside.
Rocky
That's not proof of bias, that's proof that the data shows the imports to be more reliable. That's the same conclusion you'd reach if you used JD Power data to make car purchases. The bias evident on this forum comes from those who favor Big 2.5 cars, irrespective of the data, not from the surveys that provide the results generated by asking thousands of people about their cars.
I have yet to see a single reputable data source that shows the pool of Chevy Cobalts is as reliable as is the pool of Honda Civics or Toyota Corollas. So why should anyone who is rational and does his homework believe otherwise?
Here I pronounce you a Honda/Toyota customer. As a token of our future commitment to each other, first year of CR subscription free... :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It usually goes like this. I test drive different vehicles and buy the one I like the best (within my budget) based on interior quality, powertrain refinement, and handling/braking feel and exterior appearance. The GM cars I've driven pretty much suck in those areas. I don't care if some proved to me a Grandprix or Impala would provide 300k miles of trouble free driving, I still wouldn't buy one. However, the day I get in a GM car and it impresses me in some way, then I'll be interested.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The GM vehicles I've owned, all have pretty much been terrible, Ford has been all over the map, and the one Chrysler I've owned was OK.
Rocky
You also might wish to note that not all of the Japanese cars are highly rated. If you think that Isuzu and Mitsubishi tend to get the same ratings as do Toyota or Honda, then you need to read more closely.
Neither have I but then again I don't subscribe to that rag. But I will relay this story, my sister subscribes to it and fills out the surveys. She is a die hard Toyota fan and believes that Toyota is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The only problem is that she rarely gets more than 60K miles on her cars before something major happens. Yet she always gives her Toyotas the highest marks.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
CR's primary benchmarks are based upon giving a consumer value for his money, with "value" defined as a reliable, solid runner, rather than ensuring that the driving experience has that certain something that keeps people coming back. So I would expect the average CR reader to prefer his Toyotas and Hondas, because those cars deliver strongly in providing reliable service, and the data backs that up.
But I also believe most of you who are bashing them haven't bothered to look very often because you'd see scores of American cars--including my very own Malibu Maxx--"recommend" and given average or better reliability.
And at the same time, I have to tell you, the problems match up--the one huge problem area that shows in the CR data for the Malibu, for instance, is brakes...same as mine.
I would never use it at my single source, but its one of many. The first, for me, is my personal experience. I've personally owned 4 GM cars, and every single one of them hasn't worn well. In moderate mileage, shakes and rattles develop, little things here and there start braking, and major mechanical problems appear.
I just don't think you can blame me for getting fed up. I've even got a freaking GM Card!!! This is the problem for GM right here. I'm it.
And they couldn't care less. I get treated like its MY fault.
Here is the problem, perception creates its own reality. If a Honda buyer considers themselves to be a smart consumer and buys a car that they perceive as very reliable many will respond that way to a survey regardless of how well their car really is. Of course the opposite is also true.
What I would prefer is more hard evidence such as how many of car model 'A' with the V-6 and 5 speed auto tranny had engine what engine issues at what mileage verses how many were made. That is a much better judge of reliability than what CR presents.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There are some positive improvements, like 300, Fusion or even 500, but the distance got so big over the 90s that it will take more than one model generation to make it up. And low crash score or short list of options does not help, either. GM and Ford are still stuck in catching up with previous generations of imports rather than anticipating future demand. "Return to American innovation" by Bill Ford seems like a really cruel joke.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
When talking about cars with my friends. The ones with Toyota's and Honda's rave about how great their cars are, while us guys who have GM vehicles moan and groan about the squeaks rattles and general unsatisfaction.
If my Suburban stopped rattling I'd be scared something fell off. It's freaking horrible with only 65k miles. I avoid rough/gravel roads when I can because it shakes and rattles so bad.