GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

snakeweasel

They were supposedly the most reliable on the market and I found that to be a crock o' dung.

Funny, I have the same thing to say about a Honda that a drove for a while. If I had half a lick of sense back then I would have crushed it into a cube.

anythngbutgm

I wouldn't be foolish enough to pay the money for a Caddy that gets outclassed interior-wise by a Kia Spectra but then again I am not the one making the payments...

jimlockey

I've got 32,000 miles on my present car. With the high cost of fuel, I don't see anyone except a VW Jetta TDI that can match or beat what I have. No one else comes close.

dino001

How much per gallon of that fuel do you pay? Here it is more than premium. How does it compare to gasoline cars running on regular, i.e. at least 30c per gallon?

How much do you pay per oil change? How often did you go do a dealer last year for things you had to pay? How ofte do you think you'll go once the warranty is over and famous VW reliability will start showing its face? Well, perhaps that one we don't know yet, as you might get the lucky one per ten that runs with no problems whatsoever.

Are you REALLY paying less, or you just take mpg and wave it around, completely disregarding other cost?

explorerx4

this relates to another forum i have been posting on. did consumer reports recommend the maytag?

gagrice

Wow, you did get the worst truck Toyota ever built.

I would say it was the average. Of all the Toyota truck owners I would talk to. Usually at the gas pumps. One fellow said he got 19 MPG real regular. My 1970 & 1976 Datsun PU trucks got much better mileage.

gagrice

as you might get the lucky one per ten that runs with no problems whatsoever.

Make that two in ten. I have almost a year and 7600 miles with zero problems on my Passat TDI. 5000 miles service was $50.63. Toyota charges more than that every 3000 miles on a cheapo Corolla. I think you read CR too much. You need to get out and talk to owners. Look at the NHTSA ODI complaint listings. VW had a few bad years. They are doing real well and sales have increased. Last I checked with a few dealers around the country, getting a VW TDI was harder than finding a Prius at MSRP.

PS
The driving experience is worth the extra few cents per gallon of diesel. I can go across the border and buy it for a buck a gallon less. The current price is artificially higher than gas. A power struggle is going on between the refineries and forces in the government. High diesel prices affect more than just the handful of VW TDI drivers. It affects every bag of groceries you buy and every gallon of gas you use.

snakeweasel

I have almost a year and 7600 miles with zero problems on my Passat TDI.

Well get back to us when you have 30-40 or 50K on that TDI and let us know if you still have trouble free miles. 7600 miles is nothing.

dieselone

I had a '00 Jetta TDI for a little over a year and 35k miles. Not one single problem and was by far the most enjoyable small 4cyl car I every owned with an honest 50mpg on highway (it was a 5speed manual trans).

The beauty of it was I paid $21k for it and sold it for almost 18k with 35k miles in 3 days listed on autotrader (I should of asked more, they were going new for $2k+ over sticker at the time). I sold it due to my wife getting a company car and I needed a tow vehicle as well, so the jetta had to go.

I believe the oil changes were around $50 (synthetic oil)but I used 10k intervals per the dealer and manufacturer so it was a non issue.

If I were to be on the again for work, I'd look at the VW TDI's first.

gagrice

Well get back to us when you have 30-40 or 50K on that TDI

That is unlikely. I plan to sell it in April when it is a year old. They bring big money here in CA. I will get another if I get a good buy. It has been fun driving it. I think the VW horror stories were paid for by Toyota. You know they have nothing to compete with the Jetta or Passat TDI. Only boring mediocre handling cars for older people. I'm only in my 60s not ready for the Camry crowd quite yet.

snakeweasel

I had a '00 Jetta TDI for a little over a year and 35k miles. Not one single problem and was by far the most enjoyable small 4cyl car I every owned with an honest 50mpg on highway (it was a 5speed manual trans).

Honestly 35K is nothing for me I am looking for 100K+ with no problems seeing that I put on way over 100K on all but two cars I ever owned. I like that because that gives me many years of no car payments :P

As for the 50MPG thing, I'm not really impressed, adjusting for the price difference between diesel and regular unleaded around here your not saving that much at the pump.

snakeweasel

That is unlikely. I plan to sell it in April when it is a year old.

Why? If it is such a great and reliable car why not keep driving it past the point you finish paying it off and pocket the car payments after that?

andre1969

for a Diesel engine, compared to its gasoline equivalent? IIRC, back in early 80's when GM offered the Olds Diesel 350 in just about every mid/fullsized car they had, Consumer Reports said that you'd break even financially after about 1 year, assuming 15,000 miles per year.

That was back when gasoline prices were high, though. And IIRC, don't gas prices usually spike higher than Diesel in times like that?

gagrice

why not keep driving it past the point you finish paying it off and pocket the car payments after that?

First: I would never again buy a car if I did not have the money to pay cash. Since they took interest off the write-offs it is a Total waste of money.

Second: I bought the car last April when the price was very low. I paid about a grand under Invoice. I will sell it for MSRP from when it was new. Because of CA laws I will wait for a year to sell and save the new buyer sales tax. And the car being a diesel has to have 7500 miles to be licensed in CA. That is the reason they are in demand here, same as the Prius. They are hard to find. I have a list of names of folks that are interested when it is available for sale.

Third: As much as I like driving the Passat. I like driving my new truck better. The Passat is kind of overkill as a car to run errands and not big enough for long distance travel.

Fourth: We bought a Mercedes Sprinter conversion van for traveling as soon as I retire this year. We don't need 5 vehicles for the two of us.

fifth: My wife's 1990 Lexus LS400 only has 84k miles and is still like brand new. We need to drive it more on short trips to LA and Vegas.

Last: If we find we do not like traveling in the MB Sprinter we will probably buy a Mercedes diesel such as the ML320 CDI for cross country travel.

gagrice

It really depends on the vehicle. With VW I think the Jetta TDI is about a $1000 premium. On the Passat TDI it was only $200 over the 4C and less than the V6.

In 3/4 ton PU trucks the diesel premium is $7k-$8k. The only reason to buy a diesel in a PU truck is hauling power. Gas just does not get it.

It will take a few years to break even on a Jetta TDI with the diesel being held artificially high. It will not take as long as a hybrid and you have the probability of a much higher mileage vehicle with diesel.

snakeweasel

Also wasn't diesel cheaper than gas back then?

And IIRC, don't gas prices usually spike higher than Diesel in times like that?

Maybe, maybe not. I seem to recall with Katrina diesel got to be a dollar or more a gallon than gas.

dino001

Make sense only in high mileage situation, due to their durability (as long as they well maintained). The price premium may or may not be recovered at the resale, but it certainly is a big factor.

I love when people justify their behavior using fuzzy math: hybrid cost thousands more, have unknown residuals and the battery pack replacement may cost you 3 grand, but dude you saved $500/year on gas. Diesels cost a bit less, but scheme is the same. One buys house they cannot afford, but dude look at their tax deduction or money they "made" in last five years. Forget the fact that to get $1000 off your tax bill you have to spent $4000, forget all the maintenance, insurance, tax costs, forget the fact that if you sell it you still have to buy higher priced house unless of course you move out the area. Forget all the sales commissions, bank fees etc. Dude - I made $20K last year!

cybertrano

Toyota and Honda. 1998 Toyota Tacoma - 140,000 miles trouble free. 1999 Honda Civic - 70,000 miles trouble free.

nvbanker

Right on the mark, dino - you understand the math and economics of private transportation well. I always laugh at one who justifies their new car purchase, regardless of power module, by how much gas they'll be saving.... You can't save enough gas to make that new car payment. Just admit you want a new car!

gagrice

You can't save enough gas to make that new car payment. Just admit you want a new car!

I cannot agree more with that statement. I beat into my children's head. Keep the old car until you have saved the money for a new one. The interest on a $30k car will buy enough gas to drive 800 miles per month.

Trading in your SUV when gas prices are high, like during Katrina, was not the brightest thing a car buyer could do. You are playing into the auto dealers hand. Sell you a Civic at MSRP and lowball your Tahoe. Where is the savings there?

explorerx4

those supercars: some kid with a supercharger on their 5.0 ford or sbc will give them a run for their money.

nvbanker

Exactly! I let my Navigator go back when the lease was up, rather than purchase it, because it cost me $75 a week to fill up. So, I chose not to buy it, and drive my Sedan instead. But, if I owned it, I'd have kept it.

andre1969

A few years back my uncle bought an '03 Corolla to commute to work. He did it partly to save on gasoline, but also to keep the miles off of his '97 Silverado, which was pushing 100,000 miles. He figured it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a cheap car to run into the ground, and prolong the life of the truck.

Anyway, he says the Corolla's getting him around 35 mpg, while the truck is about half that. The Corolla now has around 100,000 miles on it. So figure that during the time he's had the Corolla, he's used about 2857 gallons of gas, while the Silverado would have used 5714. So even at today's prices (around $2.50 per gallon) that Corolla has saved him around $7143 in gas.

Sounds good at first, but then when you figure the cost of the car (around $15K IIRC), the 30/60/90K servicings that he's had, insurance premiums, etc, the savings is a bit more dubious. However, if he had not bought it, his truck would have well over 200,000 miles on it now, plus whatever maintenance/repairs it needed to go from 100K to 200K, and might be ready to be replaced, so it might have worked out.

But then again, maybe not, as the tranny on the truck just crapped out the other day. :sick:

ubbermotor

Yep, yep. My dad always said that if your looking at milage ratings, what you should be looining at is used.

snakeweasel

My mom always said a used car is being sold for a reason.

mirth

...maybe not a good reason. ;-)

nvbanker

>My mom always said a used car is being sold for a reason.

So did my Dad, and he never bought a used car until his very last one. But I've bought and driven lots and lots of used cars, as well as new ones, and frankly, I've never bought a used disaster, and my new ones have not been any more reliable either. No question, a used car is being sold for a reason, but 90% of the cars I've sold are still excellent. They've been well maintained, and are being sold usually just because I'm tired of them. Sometimes, there's a little wear spot on the interior, or the mileage is just getting higher than I like (60,000). You can get a dog, but I buy cars at the auction every week for people, and if you know what you are doing, a used car is the best way to go. YOu get them with some factory warranty left, in case there are some defects, or even an catastrophe, there's no risk. Now, if you're buying beaters, you get what you pay for there. But I'm talking about getting a used car within the warranty period, inside of 3 years and 36,000 miles usually, how can you lose, and you usually save 40% of the new car cost.

snakeweasel

My very first car was used and while it ran good the rest of the car started falling apart. We started to call it the Flintstone mobile due to holes in the floor. But the thing ran great. My second car was used and while it looked in mint condition mechanically it was a dog. I never had a used car since and FWIW I only took a new car in for warranty work once in my entire life.

I know people who buy new cars every year, they never take care of them these people will put 10-15+ miles on it and never change the oil. They beat on them knowing that they will be getting a new one within a year. Sorry I won't take my chance with a used car.

nvbanker

>I know people who buy new cars every year, they never take care of them these people will put 10-15+ miles on it and never change the oil. They beat on them knowing that they will be getting a new one within a year.

Oh, no question, you are absolutely right - you do take that chance. I've said for 30 years, I feel very badly for anyone who gets my brother-in-law's used car. He had a 79 Ford F-150, that he drove for 100,000 miles, and never changed the oil. Finally, sludge built up in the head so badly, the drain holes were plugged, and it started forcing oil through the valves. I had to take the valve cover off, and literally scrape pounds of sludge out of the head and drain holes, then I put it back together and ran about 5 panfulls of new oil and transmission fluid and Rislone through the thing to clean it out.

The engine was the 4.9L inline six. Gotta say, that "built Ford tough" became a reality to me, because once it was cleaned out, it ran perfectly again after that abuse. He did sell it eventually to a guy he worked with (if you can believe that!), and it's still running fine.

So, I totally understand your position too. If you won't risk this possibility, new is for you.

ubbermotor

I knew a guy that had a '66 Ford 1-ton step-side with the 4.9 staight six that had been turned over 3 times before the odo broke. He bought the thing new, and drove it like a mad man. He still had it when he passed in the early 90's. It was in terrible shape (Primed with a paint brush to cover the rust) but still ran.

snakeweasel

Thats great that you have bought new with no problems. If you can get past the fact that its used (I have a hard time on this due to me and some friends getting burned on used cars) they are great buys. FWIW She Who Must be Obeyed and I almost bought a used C230, year old with 16K all the bells and whistles for somewhere in the mid 20's. a year or so ago.

Just one warning regarding used cars now, flood damaged cars from Katrina are now hitting the market so inspect used cars completely.

nippononly

worried me, but in the end I bought a couple of used cars in the last seven months, got CARFAXs on both and hoped CARFAX hadn't been fooled.

My truck was five years old when I bought it, the car was three, and both had about 60K miles. Both have run for 7-10K miles now without a problem, haven't spent a penny yet on service except an oil change at 65K.

It's the first time I have ever bought such young used cars - usually it is new or beater-old for me. But I have been pleasantly surprised. Both are Toyotas, the 4Runner was owned and serviced locally for many years, sold by the servicing dealer.

The next one will probably not be a Toyota, simply because there so few manual Toyotas available these days...

scape2

However,
I test drove some vehicles this weekend. I have to admit. I am seriously thinking of buying a Jetta 2.5 automatic Package 1. After the test drive and seeing and feeling the interior and road manners of this car I was impressed. I have always owned 1 Ford product in my garage. Fusion is on my list but I am waiting for the new IIHS tests for a Fusion equipped with side air bags.
So, maybe VW will sell me my next car... who know??

nvbanker

You're crazy if you do, scape. Go over to the VW boards and read a couple hundred posts - and you'll mark that great handling Jetta right off your list. Yes, they drive wonderfully - when the dealer doesn't have it.

If you wanna leave Ford, do what I did - go try out a Lexus ES-330. That's a move up. Even an Avalon is a heckofanice car now.

dino001

ES 330 or Avalon mean another some 8+ grand over Jetta 2.5. Plus it is like switching from a boat to a barge

If worry about reliability but wants a good handling (not a barge), get into Subaru Legacy/Outback, Honda Accord, or Acura TSX. If smaller is OK, try WRX, Civic Si, Mazda3, or Acura RSX.

anythngbutgm

Be careful about suggesting Hondas to Scape. He is on a mission to bring down the nameplate... read the CRV vs Escape forums. Let me quote "I am Honda's worst nightmare..."

The new Jetta is a fine piece, if you ignore some subpar electricals which appear to be coil pack and window regulator related. Those however may have been corrected in the redesign. :shades:

dino001

Coil pack again? How long will that last???

anythngbutgm

I know the sme owners of the last gen Jetta and coil pack failures were non stop. Even the replacments needed replacing! I don't know what kind of issues plague the new models, but I wouldn't expect stellar dependibility from the new Veedub. :sick:

rockylee

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109747

If I was a rich guy, this might be the Kewlest
"out on the town" car money can buy.

fintail, meet your new ride, eh ?

Rocky

scape2

06 Jetta unreliable? This is a whole different car than the 05 and before. The new 5cyl is completly different, drivetrain also different. Why is it when anything new from Honda/Toyota are automatically reliable? Get out on the net folks, there are plenty of peeved off Toyota and Honda owners out there, get out a little...
Heck, I was told my Escape was going to break down, fall apart, be completely unreliable from the Honda clan.. Well, I now have about 70,000 trouble free miles on the vehicle.. This Escape has also been worked hard, by towing, visiting fishing spots, and skii areas.. Go figure..

gagrice

Is there much difference between your Escape and Tribute? Are they priced comparably? Are they built in the same factory? That's all..

fintail

Some of the Kleeman exterior bits I have seen have been questionable...but you can't argue with what's under the hood.

If I won a 9-figure jackpot...

dino001

Brand history and stistics. Unless proven otherwise, one can quite safely "extrapolate" past performance and that ain't very good (actually, as I recall in both CR and JD Power VW is at the bottom). Does not mean the car design is bad, it just means, there is a chance the execution of that design is well below industry average. Chance of course means no certainty.

Escape? Our 2 week old company's Escape just stayed in dealers garage over the weekend for transmission work (it slips). It of course reinforced my boss's prejudice against domestics.

rroyce10

.... **"extrapolate"** ...

Dang.! .... another $10 word I gotta look up ...



Terry.

dino001

Well, past performance does not guarantee future results - we know it from mutual fund prospecti (is that a right plural for prospectus?). Yet, it does not prevent us from making such predictions. If those predictions are based on trends established in the past, it is mathematically called "extrapolation" - extending a curve (or function or discrete data) beyond its original set. (as opposed to interpolation - a mathematical process of determining fuction values between points).

Now my ten dollars, please. You can send you check, Terry

Rafal

rroyce10

.... I'll send it ... but wait a few weeks til' the check clears ...


"interpolation" .... isn't that what Bee's get from flowers..?



Terry :P

rockylee

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109883

ELcheapo eh ?

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109880

Rocky

nippononly

but where is the Expedition? And how well will either one do after summer gas hits $3/gallon again? LOL

rockylee

Here's a great article by the detnews that says you should be proud of your kia :surprise:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060405/OPINION03/604050376/1- 149/rss26

Rocky