Stories from the Sales Frontlines

jmurman42

"I've always read your posts and enjoy them. Just curious though, why wouldn't you disclose your front end gross? It certainly would be helpful for some to know how to make an "easy" deal. Most here aren't in your geographic area or know the dealership you're working for. So, I wouldn't imagine the competition would benefit at all either.

It would just be helpful on the consumer side."

I find it amazing that you would think that someone would divulge this kind of information.

Also, just HOW do you think that this would be beneficial to the consumer?

graphicguy

Personally, I don't care how much a dealer or sales person makes. I do quite a bit of research before buying a car....here and elsewhere. I also know that a dealer who only makes $200/transaction isn't going to be in business very long, either.

I'vwe been on both sides of the fence where the "market" for any given car I was interested in may well have been MSRP or above. I've also been on the other side where a car I may have wanted was so common and so plentiful, that a near invoice, or below, deal was easily obtainable.

What I was trying to find out was, assuming I'm not blind to conpetition for vehicles that MSRP isn't the going rate, what's the average gross that will get a deal done? Make the offer. Dealer accepts it. Drive away a car.

I'm somewhere in the middle of the "bobst method" (make an offer and see if someone/somewhere/somehow accepts it) and the "grinder" (whereas, the potential customer has no problem ginding the very last penny out of a deal, no matter how long it takes).

Truthfully, I dismiss ADMs immediately. It's just another stumbling block that gets in the way of me making a deal.

Knowing the average gross a dealer needs to make would make getting a deal done that much quicker.

bigdveedubgirl

I agree, It does not matter. It is so funny that we pay hundreds of percent above cost on many of our daily items, but with our cars we want to know where every penny goes.

Each dealership has different operating costs, so It all depends. There are certain people who participate in this forum who if I told what our Average Front Gross was, they would say "Oh that does not include, CSI and FBI and CIA money..."

I have said this soooooo many times and for somereason I think maybe two people in here have grasped the concept. I have been told that advice I give is to help the dealer *?* but really.....

Keep your mind filled with only what is necessary to get you the deal you want. Any other useless information will cause you to possibly pay too much!

Good phone up today "Ya My 03 A6 lease is up in two weeks, and I have a 2.7t, I would like to get a 3.2 S-Line 06 for the same payment I have now.........0 out of pocket." :confuse:

prosa

In reverse, a hot car that's really selling at MSRP, well, the customer has to decide if it's worth it to pay that much, or do they want to look around for perhaps a different car or wait six months until the fever dies down some.

Not everyone can wait. What if you have a lease that's soon to expire, and the car you want is selling at or above MSRP? You're then stuck with having to pay an inflated price or buying something you don't really want

robr2

Not everyone can wait. What if you have a lease that's soon to expire, and the car you want is selling at or above MSRP? You're then stuck with having to pay an inflated price or buying something you don't really want

So the dealer should give up profit because YOU want the car so badly??

I should the plumber it's not fault that my water heater blew up on Christmas day and that he should charge me his regular M-F 9-5 rate?

british_rover

Pick a different car or extend your lease. Just about every leasing company will let you extend the lease in increments of a set amount.

jimlockey

By Fleet and forget about salesman.

mac24

Not everyone can wait. What if you have a lease that's soon to expire, and the car you want is selling at or above MSRP? You're then stuck with having to pay an inflated price or buying something you don't really want

If the car really is selling at or above MSRP, then surely that's the actual market price at that time, and not inflated at all.

Of course, that doesn't mean you have to like it!

mac24

By Fleet and forget about salesman.

The fleet mgr isn't a salesman?

qbrozen

As graphicguy said, it just adds another stumbling block, and this is why I won't shop at stores that have them.

Basically, the dealer is using this as a way to pretend they are giving you something when they take it off the price. Its a lousy tactic for lousy sellers and shoppers, in my opinion.

Is this the case ALL of the time? Well, not necessarily. I will admit there are a few instances where I can understand a dealer trying to sell the car for what the market will support ... but this applies to maybe 1% of ADM stickers out there, IMHO, maybe even less.

One good example I have of this was when the WRX first came out. I already knew of dealers selling below MSRP when I went to my local dealer to test drive one. I had bought from this dealer in the past, too. After the drive, their first offer to me was "we're charging $2k over MSRP on these cars, but since you are a repeat customer, we're willing to forget that and sell it to you for sticker!" I made it very clear that I found this extremely insulting and I they just lost a potential repeat customer. They even called me the next day and I wouldn't listen to any offer they had. I let them know they should have treated me right the first time, end of story. Am I a stubborn buyer? heck ya.

bdr127

I agree, It does not matter. It is so funny that we pay hundreds of percent above cost on many of our daily items, but with our cars we want to know where every penny goes.

It is kind of funny, isn't it?.... You don't even want to know what kind of mark up we pay on clothing! Yikes!

qbrozen

Good phone up today "Ya My 03 A6 lease is up in two weeks, and I have a 2.7t, I would like to get a 3.2 S-Line 06 for the same payment I have now.........0 out of pocket." :confuse:

ummm... i'm missing this joke. Could you explain?
Is it funny because he left out what he's currently paying?
I mean, wasn't the 2.7t over $40k originally? and now the S-line starts in the low-$40s as well, doesn't it?

bigdveedubgirl

While there are still people who are willing to pay the ADM, you will see ADM. Remember, dealers have every right to ask for money oversticker, especially if the market dictates. They are not trying to insult the buyers. Remember, the S in MSRP stands for "suggested" . And you as a buyer, has every right not to buy that car.

In SO Cal, you see big ADMs on amy new car, hot color of a run of the mill car, and I worked in that enviroment, and some would buy some would not.

Here in DFW most stores do not ADM,unless it is a hot hot car. We do not at all. With the arrival of RS4, we will only ask for MSRP (but put a sticker for 3000 dollar wheel locks. JUST KIDDING) but we will be firm on that pricing.

Where i

isellhondas

We pre-install the accessories that most people end up asking for anyway and it varies by car.

Certainly no spoilers or tacky pinstrips but we normally do install splash guards, door edge guards and the wheel lip mouldings. Very selsdom does anyone complain but when I offer to pull these items off, they usually want them thrown in for free!

studpup775

so whats the deal who's a car salesman here?

corvette

Splash guards, door edge guards, and wheel lip mouldings - I wouldn't want any of these. If I were considering buying at a store that put them on every car, I would probably shop the price around, because I figure they've put in an hour of labor to install them, and another hour of labor to remove them, which will be factored into the price they're willing to accept on the car. Perhaps the additional profit from the customers who take the accessories pays for this, and my price is unaffected.

If memory serves, the local Acura dealer puts a "protection pack" on all their cars for about $1200, consisting of floormats, splash guards, a pinstripe, and some type of permanent paint protection gimmick. That type of thing really turns me off as a potential buyer.

qbrozen

seems pretty clear to me just by reading the posts most times.

isell is.
bigdveedub is.
british_rover is.

but, out of curiosity, why do you ask?

qbrozen

oh, i fully understand what msrp is.

lemme put it this way ... since purchases other than cars have been mentioned here ... I don't go to a higher priced store for something I can get in a lower priced store. Wegman's can ask $10/lb. for goat cheese all they want, it just means I'm going to Foodtown where its $7. That applies for other things I negotiate on, too. If I'm buying furniture, I'm going to the lower-priced place and haggle with them because its less of a hassle to get $500 off than to go to the place that starts $1k higher and get $1500 off.

Is an ADM sticker MEANT to be an insult? Maybe not. IS it an insult? To someone like me, yes.

audia8q

Is an ADM sticker MEANT to be an insult? Maybe not. IS it an insult? To someone like me, yes.

are you insulted in the sameway when you walk into a retailer like Nordstroms and see the same pants you can buy at Macys for 40% more? I'm just curious because I don't really understand why it insults you? (I'm not trying to pick on you, I just don't get it)

If you were the kind of guy who paid the window sticker price I could understand getting a little ruffled but I just don't see you as a full boat laydown. LOL

mark156

To me, MSRP is set up to give the dealership a really nice profit. When I see a ADM sticker, it is a real turn off to me. If it's on one or two cars and they are "REALLY" hot cars, that's OK. But, at my local Chrysler dealership in California, they had ADM stickers on EVERY car.. even the Neons, Jeeps, etc.... so, please, I don't think ADM stickers are neccessary on everything. :confuse:

Personally, I would never pay MSRP or over ....maybe within $1,000 (discount)like I did on my 2000 E430.... if they want list, I'll just wait until the price goes down.

Mark

perna

I honestly think the lot of you are too sensitive over the ADM sticker. Just offer what you think the car is worth and ignore it.

When I bought my Nissan, I asked them to take the front license plate bracket off, and then "plug" the holes left (the car was a DX from out of state). They did a fine job, I signed the papers, and drove off.

I also bought a car once where they put the dealership sticker on the back. Again, I asked them to remove it.

In this respect, buying a car really isn't that much different than buying any other consumer item. If the product and salesman meet your needs and the price is right, do the deal. Otherwise, walk away. Hand wringing and being "insulted" only makes your life more difficult.

snakeweasel

I think it would be more like going to the store (any one) seeing the price tag for X dollars and a tag next to it that says Y dollars additional markup.

qbrozen

are you insulted in the sameway when you walk into a retailer like Nordstroms and see the same pants you can buy at Macys for 40% more?

Well, as I said, I won't shop at Nordstroms, just like I won't shop at a dealership with higher prices.

qbrozen

I honestly think the lot of you are too sensitive over the ADM sticker. Just offer what you think the car is worth and ignore it.

I may have been exaggerating a bit when I said i'm "insulted" by adm stickers ...

in any case, i won't just make an offer because I feel if a store has an ADM sticker, they are going to be more difficult to deal with. So why should I start haggling with them when I can walk down the street to the guy without ADM and start my negotiations from a lower baseline?

Let me ask those who are OK with ADM stickers a question:
If you are shopping for a used car and you spot 2 identical cars with identical miles and exactly the same distance from your home ... would you go try to buy the one that is priced $2k higher? Of course not. Sure, they are exactly the same value, but why go through the trouble of trying to get one person to drop their price $2k further than the other? There's just no need.

bigdveedubgirl

Oh GAWD, I had to work at a store that had $195 vin etch on EVERY car, because it included the policy, which I guess was okay, but I thought it was tacky, especially trying to sell vin etch to a cop (anyone can get vin etching for free at their police station). I would tell the benefits of the policy, and somepeople saw the value, some did not but I really did'nt push it (first of all it did not go into, either my pocket, or F/I, it went towards operating costs) so I would kick it if they didnt want it, for the sake of customer service and it would irk managers to no end. I thought it was pretty lame.

british_rover

Land Rover requires us to put ADM stickers on our vehicles if we have any type of extra dealer installed equipment on them.

There is enough Land Rover Kit in the catalogue to increase the MSRP of any vehicle by 10,000 dollars or more and anything you add to a car needs to have a sticker in the window saying what the increased price of the vehicle is.

This is true even if we are just using the kit for display. We had a big expedition style roof rack on a LR3 in the showroom that we were using for display. We had a bunch of bags strapped down to it and it looked pretty cool. I could take the whole thing off in about 5 minutes with just a nut driver since we did not have it truly secured for driving.

That roof rack costs 2,000 dollars and we did not have a sticker on the LR3 saying that it cost 2,000 dollars and the price of this car with the rack would really be $55,395 not $53,395. Well land Rover came by on one of their audits saw we did not have the sticker and deducted three points from our overall score.

au1994

maybe its just me, but I pay no attention to window stickers, MSRP or ADM. I come to the dealership armed with information regarding the price of the car, my financing options, internet quotes obtained (hopefully) and my assesment of a fair trade in value for my current car.

I have a price in mind and as long as we are reasonably close, I'm ok with that.

I could care less if you want to charge me 1500 for a "protection package" as long as it still fits within the number I have budgeted for the car.

As long as we agree on the bottom line OTD price and I understand and we mutually agree as to how that number was achieved, I'm good. maybe I'm crazy?!?!

bigdveedubgirl

you are so not crazy!!! You are and informed buyer!

Rover,

Thats an addendum, but that is not a ADM addendum, because you are adding a goodie to the car. Most of the people here are talking about the upcharge for market adjustment.

larryallen707

are you insulted in the sameway when you walk into a retailer like Nordstroms and see the same pants you can buy at Macys for 40% more?

Brings up an interesting off topic point... how many of you know that Nordstrom's MATCHES the prices for lower class stores like Macy's!? YES, you can get the nice service and selection of Nordstrom's for Sear's/Macy's/wherever prices. Try it! Cars are basically the same. Doesn't matter what dealer, where they are located or what sticker is on the window. Offer what you want to pay and you would be surprised how many dealers will negotiate.
P.S. Yes, I really think Macy's is lower class. I worked there during college... and always got compliments on my NORSTROM's clothes I would wear!

qbrozen

maybe its just me, but I pay no attention to window stickers, MSRP or ADM. I come to the dealership armed with information regarding the price of the car, my financing options, internet quotes obtained (hopefully) and my assesment of a fair trade in value for my current car.

nope. its not just you. but if your research shows a car should be $5k below sticker and a dealer is telling you they charge $2k over sticker ... well, i'll go out on a limb here and say that you have a slim to zero chance of making a deal with that dealership. So why waste your time when the guy next door starts off at a more realistic asking price?

dino001

Motor Trend gave awards to Lincoln LS and Ford Thunderbird, so I would be careful with bragging.

qbrozen

Brings up an interesting off topic point... how many of you know that Nordstrom's MATCHES the prices for lower class stores like Macy's!?

I didn't know ... but I also don't care. Alot of places have price-matching type gimicks. But, again, why bother? Why should I go through the trouble of bringing in an ad, going to the customer service desk, etc, when I can just go to the cheaper place to begin with?

larryallen707

nope. its not just you. but if your research shows a car should be $5k below sticker and a dealer is telling you they charge $2k over sticker ... well, i'll go out on a limb here and say that you have a slim to zero chance of making a deal with that dealership. So why waste your time when the guy next door starts off at a more realistic asking price?

Everybody markets their stuff (cars or whatever) differently. Just because a dealer has a ridicilous adm doesn't mean they won't sell for the best price in the area. The BMW dealer near my house puts 10-30% mark up on every car. Just amazing "asking" prices. Some people may pay it. I know several people, including myself, who have done extensive shopping but found THE best deal in all of Cali right there at our local high adm dealer! You don't KNOW unless you try. Good luck with all your shopping.

larryallen707

I didn't know ... but I also don't care. Alot of places have price-matching type gimicks. But, again, why bother? Why should I go through the trouble of bringing in an ad, going to the customer service desk, etc, when I can just go to the cheaper place to begin with?

Sorry to remain off topic, but.... Nobody said you have to bring ads or anything. That's the beauty of a place like Nordstrom's. It's so far superior. Just ASK. Where would I rather shop? Store that is busy, with long lines, low paid and not knowledgeable staff, crowded aisles with too much merchandise... or a store with classy employees, knowledgable of their product, short lines, good product selection in nice atmosphere!???? Try it.

qbrozen

I hear ya, and I'm not arguing.

the point I've been trying to make is that a dealer with ADM on all their stuff is a dealer that won't get my business. Its just the way it is. Call me proud, call me stubborn, whatever ... i know my wife does ... but there are certain things in life that just get under my skin and I refuse to support them in any way.

snakeweasel

Didn't they also give awards to such great cars as Vega and Chevette?

au1994

good question, and you are right, I would not do business with the first guy especially if the guy next door is that much cheaper.

It just depends on your local market. For example, I'm in a large southern metro area and lets say I'm in the market for a black Accord. I find one, but we are $500 apart in price. I'll walk on this one because there are probably at least a 8-10 more Honda dealers I can shop within the metro area.

Now lets say I'm interested in a black Subaru Outback and we are $500 apart. Now for my market, my leverage is limited because there are only 3 Subie dealerships in the area. So I would need to consider my figures a little closer.

larryallen707

I hear ya, and I'm not arguing.

the point I've been trying to make is that a dealer with ADM on all their stuff is a dealer that won't get my business. Its just the way it is. Call me proud, call me stubborn, whatever ... i know my wife does ... but there are certain things in life that just get under my skin and I refuse to support them in any way.

You are a refreshingly honest person. "I am stubborn so that's it." I like that and won't try to convince you otherwise. Most people don't realize when they are stubborn. I agree that I don't like that pricing style but it's the closest BMW dealer so I still buy there. Peace

socala4

nope. its not just you. but if your research shows a car should be $5k below sticker and a dealer is telling you they charge $2k over sticker ... well, i'll go out on a limb here and say that you have a slim to zero chance of making a deal with that dealership.

You need to go back and read the Purchasing Strategies thread. You couldn't be more wrong.

socala4

Now lets say I'm interested in a black Subaru Outback and we are $500 apart. Now for my market, my leverage is limited because there are only 3 Subie dealerships in the area. So I would need to consider my figures a little closer.

Sorry, but that's a negotiation error. The Subaru dealers aren't just competing with one another, but with every other car dealer.

From the standpoint of market competition and haggling the best deal, you need to approach it from the perspective that there are a wide number of choices available to you, whether they are made by Subaru or otherwise.

The dealer has to believe that you are willing to walk, and to purchase a whole host of alternatives aside from what he has to sell. (Better still, you should be able to convey the idea that you don't need to buy anything at all.) The more married that you are to a specific badge or a nameplate, the more you are likely to overpay for it.

audia8q

you spot 2 identical cars with identical miles and exactly the same distance from your home ... would you go try to buy the one that is priced $2k higher?

I buy from the retailer who makes the best impression on me and treats me the most professionally. The starting price plays no role in my purchase decisions.

Just for everyones info...I do not have adm stickers on any of our cars.

john500

You're not the only stubborn one. I do the same thing. I've had enough experience with dealerships that use adjusted market value stickers. They basically insult the consumer with horrible deals and then you have to haggle for hours to get even a reasonable price, let alone a good price. They can keep the car. I'll get one elsewhere or a different model. I don't have time to waste at car dealerships haggling over price. I'll eat $500 and give the sale to a salesman/saleswoman who comes right out with an offer within $500 of the Edmunds or Kelly's price. If the first offer is > $1,000 off target - no deal. I won't even waste the time making a counter offer.

au1994

Sorry, I don't see that as a negotiation error. If I want a Subaru, then I am going to shop for Subaru's. If I determine that we cannot come to acceptable terms through what ever negitioation strategy (walking out etc)then I would move to my second choice.

And it goes without saying that the dealer should absolutley believe you are considering any number of makes.

I'm not one of these that walks onto a lot with stars in my eyes, checkbook in one hand, pen in the other.

british_rover

Ah but some Land Rover dealers will take advantage of it like it is a ADM addendum.

They will put clear bras on their cars and charge stupid money for them or put wood kits in all the LR3's and charge 300-500 dollars more then it really costs to put it on.

qbrozen

Sorry, but that's a negotiation error. The Subaru dealers aren't just competing with one another, but with every other car dealer.

i'm with au1994. And I'd wager any enthusiast would be, as well. We want what we want. Settling for 2nd place is like kissing your sister.

qbrozen

You need to go back and read the Purchasing Strategies thread. You couldn't be more wrong.

No, I really don't. You and I have been there, done that, I've had my posts deleted, and I have the soundtrack and t-shirt. We don't agree on what is the best way to do business. End of story.

snakeweasel

Sorry, but that's a negotiation error. The Subaru dealers aren't just competing with one another, but with every other car dealer.

To a point thats true, they are in competition with other dealers if the customer sees their cars as viable alternatives. Say I am at the Subaru dealer looking for a AWD wagon for under $23K, not many other places I can go for that. Yet if I just want a station wagon for under $23K then I have more alternatives.

Then there are those who will only buy one make of car.

socala4

It is a negotiation error, because you are assuming that the dealer is competing with only the same nameplates, when he is competing with the entire marketplace.

Unless the car is very hot, there are generally ample inventories for most nameplates. A dealer's job is to sell the inventory on his lot, because the sooner that he sells it, the more that he earns.

If a dealer needs to move inventory, it really doesn't matter whether he has one or ten direct competitors -- he still needs to move that car off of his lot (and he would prefer to do that as soon as possible.) The salesman would also like to sell you that car, because he makes nothing if you buy something else somewhere else, or for that matter, from a different salesman at his own dealership.

Just so long as there are plenty of Subie Outbacks on that guys lot in comparison to the demand for them in that market, you can get a low price for that car, regardless. You're only going to pay more because you've convinced yourself that you need to before you've set foot in the place. Of course, the dealer will happily pocket that premium, but you could have paid less.

snakeweasel

I would say that if you are $7K apart then you should cut and run. Then re-evaluate the information to see if you were way to low or they were way to high and play the next deal accordingly.

au1994

this could go on till the cows come home...

see above posts from snakeweasel and qbrozen.

I'm done. We don't see things the same way and are not going to change each others mind. No blood, no foul.