Stories from the Sales Frontlines

js06gv

I've got the very Mustang you mention but as it's for the wife I bought the slush box. That precluded me getting the Brembo pkg, as it wasn't available with A/T in 2011. That may have changed for 2012 though.

Finding a GT with the comfort pkg (heated seats plus pwr passenger seat) was close to impossible.

nyccarguy

That would bring Craig out of retirement. The only problems are that he'd have to relocate from WA to CT and change his name from isellhondas to iselljeeps.

A friend of mine is interested in 4 Door Jeep Wranglers. He went to a dealership that he described to me as "What a Jeep dealership in a small New England town should look like." The dealer is family owned and not by some auto dealer conglomerate that has the new Chrysler "corporate look."

He's greeted by a friendly salesman who seems to be very genuine. The guy knows the Wranglers backwards and forwards. Not just like he'd memoized the book, but showed actual passion for the Jeep brand.

After listening to what my friend was interested in, he grabs a set of keys and they go out to the lot. My friend tells me they have maybe 30 Wrangler Unlimiteds. 27 of them are 6 - speed manuals, the other 3 were automatic, & only 1 had leather. He also noticed that EVERY SINGLE Jeep on the lot was prepped, detailed, and ready to drive home.

The salesman tells him how the majority of their customers buy Wranglers with a stick. He offers to go with my friend on the test drive or let him go alone. My friend opted to have the salesman go with him.

My friend was impressed with the new for 2011 Interior, thought it rode fairly comfortably, and drove like a heavy SUV (not in a bad way).

So after about a 25 minute test drive that included some twisty back roads, some highway time, some hills they head back to the salesman's desk.

The salesman explains to my friend that they have been selling Jeeps for 70 years. They include lifetime oil changes at 3,000 mile intervals, pick up and drop off service for when the Jeep has to be brought in. I think loaner vehicles too.

The salesman says to him: "We sell every vehicle here at full MSRP. If there are any cash rebates, we surely pass them on to the customer. There are other dealers in the area that sell Jeeps at significant discounts, but we believe the service we offer makes up for the difference. We have a very loyal customer base. We service the Jeeps and do give our customers more for their trade when the time comes because we know the vehicle has been taken care of properly by us. Do we have the color/options you're interested in? You can drive it home tonight if you want."

My friend tells the salesman that he's got to go home and talk it over with his wife. He also tells the salesman: "This is the way cars SHOULD be sold. No need to dicker around with price. No need to waste time calling/visiting different dealers. I really do appreciate your time. Thank-you."

I think it is a good idea. I think it would make for less aggrevation on both the buyers & sellers. I don't know if it could work across the board, but think Craig would like to work there.

M

tjc78

Sounds like a nice to place to buy a car. So, basically you pay full pop for a vehicle that can be bought at invoice minus rebates all day long and in turn get "complimentary" service.

Lets do some math: Jeep Wranger Unlimited (w/o options) $34,120
Invoice on above $32,141

Difference: $1979

Lets say you keep it for 100K miles (100,000/3,000 = approx 33 oil changes)

Assume $30.00 per oil change (dino oil)

33 x $30 = $990

So IMHO I'll buy it at the "guy who deals" and pocket an extra thousand even figuring the free oil changes for life.

The guy must be doing something right, being in business for so long, but I think there are better deals to be had.

nyccarguy

They both take the same amount of fuel. Once you get over driving like a hoodlum, you are talking about such a small difference. Besides, in 3 years when you get sick of having a RWD, live axle, 412 hp V8 powered Mustang in upstate NY where it starts snowing in October and there is still salt on the roads 2 weeks before Memorial Day you will ALWAYS have a buyer. The V6 will be a tougher sell.

driver100

Lets do some math: Jeep Wranger Unlimited (w/o options) $34,120
Invoice on above $32,141
Difference: $1979

Nice calculations Tic (I enjoyed reading that). I was thinking the same....go for a discount and take my chances on oil changes and so called extra good service. Nothing wrong with them having that concept, some people might prefer to go with the dealer who gives top service. I would like to try to get both, better price and at least a base level of service. Who knows how good their service is, it's just the guys words.

But, my question is, what are the chances you will get the car for invoice? Is that going to be doable?

roadburner

It sounds like you found a great car; I have no doubt that I'd have to order one to get the options I want.

tjc78

But, my question is, what are the chances you will get the car for invoice? Is that going to be doable?

Edmunds had TMV in my area under invoice. IMHO the answer is yes. Heck, even if you got it $500 OVER you are still in the black.

kyfdx

Plus... paying full MSRP is sort of Un-American.. No wonder, with Jeep being an Italian company... :surprise:

fezo

Boy, you miss a few hours and there are 40 posts. I've been way tired - have to go in for blood tomorrow so I've been napping but am now at work for the evening.

We have a "family of dealerships" that has that "we take care of you" down pat except for the fact that it's pretty much all talk. Mostly what you get are the oil changes. They have overloaded prices and actually believe that someone will pay them (and I guess some one does because they've been around quite a while).

isellhondas

Interesting story except the average shopper wouldn't care about all of the service. It's all about PRICE at least in the market where I worked and other marketplaces are even worse!

We used to install a couple hundred dollars of what we felt were worthwhile accessories such as door edge guards and splash guards on the cars that didn't come with them standard.

We had a visiting dealer from California take one look and say...People really pay for those items??...In California those would kill the sale...the mooches would NEVER pay for them"

Yeah, I would like to work there. I just don't see that concept working.

oldfarmer50

"...such a small difference..."

I'll give you that. I figure about $350 more a year for the GT.

"...when you get sick of having a RWD, live axle, 412 hp V8..."

Yeah, like THAT'S ever going to happen.

OK, I'm in. Now just tell me where I'm going to get the extra $5K buy-in. :sick:

mako1a

I'd have to order one to get the options I want.

RB, Ford is screwey about options. They're "packages".

ie You have to order the Premium Package ($6k) to get to

order the Shaker Stereo. So the $1200 Shaker actually

costs $7,200. Brembo Brakes come with the Performance Package.

Not sure of the price, but my guess is it's tall. Plus you don't get a spare.

I like the Ambiance Option for $295, BUT, you need to spend $4k to be

able to order it and get illuminated door sills and cupholder lights.

A V6 can easily go to $28k and a V8 built my way was over $40k.

Go full tilt and you at the edge of the Boss 302 at $44k Plus $9,999 ADM.

mako1a

In California those would kill the sale...the mooches would NEVER pay for them"

Get a Rope. Maybe if we string up a few of these mooches the others will learn.

mac24

But, my question is, what are the chances you will get the car for invoice? Is that going to be doable?

Absolutely it is. Wranglers are popular with a certain segment of the market, but there's no supply shortage, and at the moment sales are slow as buyers wait for the new engine in the 2012s.

I can only surmise that the area is very rural and the nearest competition is a long way away.

We had a Dodge dealer like that some years ago. Family owned, personal service, loyal customers, always sell at MSRP+, yada, yada, yada.

Then a big dealership fifteen miles away got a Dodge franchise. The small family owned store didn't last another year.
All the glad handing and good 'ol boy arm around the shoulders stood for nought when those loyal customers looked at the difference between MSRP+ and Invoice-.
In fact I met a couple of them who were very bitter because they felt they had been cheated over the years by their supposed 'buddy' who owned the store, and who always made a point of chatting with them after church every Sunday.

mako1a

Roadburner, I just had another thought.

My Escape has a V6 with 4WD and independent rear suspension.

Why not take one of these, lighten, lower and turbo it?

While I'm not a track guy, it sure sounds doable and inexpensive.

fezo

I'll admit that I'm one of those people that absolutely hates when a dealer puts stuff an and throws on the dreaded second sticker. I will say, however, that the ones you mention aren't the ones that drive me crazy. It's the old $1 - $2 markup for rust and dust and mop and glow and scotchguard.

roadburner

I'll admit that I'm one of those people that absolutely hates when a dealer puts stuff an and throws on the dreaded second sticker.

I agree; I don't want any factory or aftermarket accessories added to my car unless I personally select them. As a matter of fact, I much prefer to buy them and install them myself- that way I know that the job was done right.

The local Mazda dealer (Oxmoor -or to be accurate- Oxmorons Mazda) had a new Mazda2 on the floor equipped with a set of extremely crappy looking 15" chrome wheels- and they wanted $3000 for the horrid things.
I absolutely HATE add-on stickers of any kind.

explorerx4

If the audio system is important to you, you are looking at the wrong car.
A Mustang GT is all about the music the engine makes. :shades:
I think ambient lighting can be dealer added as a stand alone option.
Will admit that yesterday was the 20th anniversary of picking up our GT and when I got it home, I put the antenna in the trunk.
It did come back out one time.

oldfarmer50

"...and they wanted $3000 for the horrid things..."

My local Chrysler dealer installed a vinyl roof on a 300 in their showroom and ADMed it for $2995. Must have been a special order that fell through. I can't figure anyone in the last decade who would pay extra for that.

explorerx4

Your post reminded of something.
After Labor Day, sports cars automatically drop in value and SUV values go up.
People close up their cottages, pull their boats out of the water, put their pleasure car away until spring, and start thinking about winter.

snakeweasel

One year, the relative brought out a cannon so his booms would be bigger.

That begs the question of what sized cannon? I used to do Civil war re-enacting with an artillery group. We had full sized Civil war replecas and one original cannon. Those things were loud. Great thing to do is after loading the gunpowder is pack it with SOS pads. It burns all different colors and makes a great sight when fired at night.

mako1a

After Labor Day, sports cars automatically drop in value and SUV values go up.

explorer, I've been thinking about that.

Trading a 4WD for a sports car 2 months before summer's end

is probably foolhardy. I'll bet it'll still be there in March. No hurry here.

fezo

One of the local lots has a Nissan Altima in saleproof green and a vinyl top.

explorerx4

Been to a few parades and Patriot's game where they fire muskets.
The powder really smells strong,

driver100

I'll give you that. I figure about $350 more a year for the GT.

Now you're using the "Driver" method of accounting...or at least rationalizing your purchase.

driver100

Family owned, personal service, loyal customers, always sell at MSRP+

It's nice to see old fashioned service, BUT, only if it is accompanied by competitive prices. In this day and age consumers know they can buy their car at one dealer and take it to another for service.

First sell me the car at a competitive price, then show me how good the service is, and I might come back for another car. Talk about how great the service is and expecting full MSRP is just words...doesn't mean a thing in the real world.

nyccarguy

It is not in a rural area. There is plenty of competition here in Fairfield County, CT. Speaking of, hey explorerx4, did your paycheck go down? I heard our Governor raised income taxes retroactive to January.

stickguy

my Honda dealer (Actually both, since I got the 2-2005s at different places) puts one of those packs on every car on the lot. IIRC, when i got mine, on 1 I just said I wasn't paying for most of it, and settled on a price that was fair for the actual accessories. On the other, it was a leftover, and the price was way below invoice already, ignoring the add ons.

They "listed" them at ~ $695 for a trunk tray, wheel locks, and a pin stripe (though the van I don't think got the pinnie. maybe that is what I negotiated away, since it was fresh off truck?). Don't think I have any edge guards either!

I did want the locks and the trunk tray anyway, and the stripe looks good on the Accord. but no way was all that worth 700 clams.

I think they just do it hoping to get a sucker to pay the crazy inflated price, but immediately drop to normal list as soon as someone pushes for it.

robr2

Been to a few parades and Patriot's game where they fire muskets.
The powder really smells strong,

I go the recreation of the Battle of Lexington on the green very often and yes the powder does smell very strong.

isellhondas

695.00 for those items is a bit over the top.

We would install the items we felt were useful and we didn't overcharge for them. For example in a lot of cars such as Odysseys, Pilots and CRV's we would install the nice all season mats. The look good and fit well and in our wet climate carpeted floor mats make little sense.

Some customers would be happy to have these and a few would whine about paying the extra cost. If they didn't want them, we would take them out.

Some nearby stores would load their cars with expensive items such as running boards, roof racks etc. Usually we wouldn't dealer trade with those guys since few customers needed or wanted these items.

stickguy

For a purchase. Just not the car I expected!

Was in upper NY state last weekend (Oldfarmer territory), and took my Accord to save gas over using the van. On Sunday morning, about to head home, pull in for gas and hear some band metallic sounding grinding/squaling, but thought it must have been from elsewhere.

Pull out of the station and head down a ramp, and it is back, really loud. So pull over on the shoulder before getting onto a divided road/bridge where I couldn't. Some nice people (well, strange looking but nice) in a van pull over to see if I need help.

Pop hood, look underneath, see nothing amiss (no hanging parts, engine fine in neutral). So try to move, cacaphony of bad sounds. Stop again. Strange dude thinks it is the brake pad warning sound (it did sound like that, but did it without foot on brakes, so not likely).

at this point, I need to go somewhere, so I decide to head into town to find someplace to look at it. And of course, no sound. Was fine local, and all 270 miles home (and the week since).

1/2 way home, I think I figured it out. Just before the problem started, I came down a freshly gravelled side road that pinged all kinds of stones up in the wheel wells. I bet a rock got stuck in between the pad and rotor, and was grinding. After the last stop, it must have worked loose and fell out. so , no more problem.

At some point I wil lhave the tires rotated again and brakes checked to see if it did damage (if it was that) but the brakes seem fine, and it did seem to at least be the rears where the noise came from.

So excuse to trade, eliminated!

roadburner

I bet a rock got stuck in between the pad and rotor, and was grinding.

I have a gravel driveway and the exact same thing would happen to my wife's 1997 5 Series on a semi-regular basis. The rock always wore itself out -literally- with no damage to the pad or rotor.
It sure made a heckuva racket, regardless...

roadburner

I'm ready to buy the Mini Cooper S I mentioned earlier. Thanks to im_brentwood I now have a fair price for the car. So...

Should I

1. Offer @$1000 less than the fair price and start bargaining?

or

2. Offer the fair price and if they say no simply tell them "Thanks for your time, call me if you change your mind." and move on?

I've almost always used the offer/counter-offer method, but I'm getting old and grumpy and I tend to get annoyed with all of the back-and-forth malarky.

Thoughts?

isellhondas

I would go with Number 2.

Tell them that you don't like going back and forth and THIS is your offer.

Funny, when people would do this and I would come back and shake their hand, I would sometimes get a limp handshake and I could see the fear in theri eyes that they were sure they had left money on the table.

And, I had a couple of people back out of their commitment at that point.

I always MADE SURE that the customer was 100% committed before I presented their offer. I would tell them..." OK, I appreciate your style and I will represent your offer even though I think it's going to take a bit more...I will fight hard but I need to know that you are 100% commited to buy the car and drive it home NOW!"

I would write..." I will buy and drive it home" I would write down their number and have them sign it.

If they waffled or said something like.." Well, I would probably buy it for that", I wouldn't present it.

If the offer wasn't accepted, I would walk back and say " Well, I tried but we can't quite do that...thanks for giving me a shot"

At that point they would usually stammer and say.." Well, what WOULD he take?" I would say..." Well, you told me that was your first and final offer, do you mean you will pay more?"

" Well, what did he say? What will he take?"

" Raise your offer and I'll try again"

I loved it when customers would read so much on the internet and try to outsmart me"!

gogiboy

RB--

I'd opt for option #1. We all talk here about how "conditioned" we've become to the back-and-forth game of nonsense that passes for car sales these days. Don't you think the used car sales folk are just as conditioned if not more so. There's no such thing as an unexpected bump.

Option #2 (the so-called bobst method) might work and avoids the negotiator's dance, but the approach seems better applied to new rather than used cars since there's almost always another dealership to search for the exact same car. As they say, no two used cars are alike.

The other reason for exploring #1 is that you might get it for less than your original price point since you really can't know with certainty what they paid for the car. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Minis--at least in my neck of the woods. If the back and forth reaches your upper price threshold you can then say, "well, that's my final offer" and "let me know if you change your mind".

Gogiboy

mac24

Should I
1. Offer $1000 less than the fair price and start bargaining?
or
2. Offer the fair price and if they say no simply tell them "Thanks for your time, call me if you change your mind." and move on?

I use a combination of the two and it works well for me. YMMV

"I've done my research and have come to a price that I believe is fair for us both. I will not go a penny over that price. How would you like to proceed?
I can start at $1K below that price and we can work our way up to it, or I can give you the number now and save us both some time."

As long as you first establish your credibility as a serious customer you can save a lot of time, as long as the salesman isn't bound by a script that the dealer insists he follows.
You'll always be asked for your figure, and the result will either be :
"Sign here please",
or:
"We could do it for anothe $200", which if you accept you're lost, as add-ons will then appear all over the invoice".
or:
"I'm sorry, we can't do that", which may or may not be true, and you'll only find out some time after you leave.

verdugo

on here who like cats?

Right here. Two cats, no dogs.

isellhondas

No matter how fairly priced a used car may be even if it's mispriced in error people will ALWAYS try to offer less.

I always tried to cut to the chase and my customers knew it.

The store is trying to make as big of a profit as possible and the shopper is trying to pay as little as possible.

The store wants to make a sale. The shopper needs a car.

If a store walks a customer they simply didn't want to make the deal. It made no sense.

mac24

If a store walks a customer they simply didn't want to make the deal. It made no sense.

Yes, it goes back to the Bobst method really. Make an offer and if it's turned down then walk away. Do it a couple more times at other stores and if you don't end up with a car then your figures were wrong.

I always find it funny when I read the stories about customers who get upset when the dealer won't accept their offer.

Just as the dealer can't force a customer to buy a car, the customer can't force the dealer to sell him one.

qbrozen

I've tried both on multiple occassions and I've found option 1 to be easier and faster.

It aggravates me to keep repeating myself. And if I give one number only, I wind up repeating myself till I'm blue in the face and exhausted. Much like isell found with customers who won't bite on a good deal up front, the same is true of dealers. They seem to feel you always have room to move. So giving them your top dollar offer up front only makes them feel like they are leaving money on the table if they bite.

Besides, on a used car, "fair" can vary by about $500 in my experience. $2500 over is right in the ballpark, but you can get it for $2k over or $3k over and everyone would still be content. So, on that Mini, Bill said they are going in the $8s. That means $11k is a pretty fair target ... but you want it for $10,500. Personally, I'd be starting them at $10k. Whether I hit $11 really depends on the small details of the car's condition.

mac24

It aggravates me to keep repeating myself. And if I give one number only, I wind up repeating myself till I'm blue in the face and exhausted.

Then don't go blue in the face, just stand up and leave the room.
In a situation like that, actions speak louder than words.

qbrozen

Unfortunately, I'm usually too nice. If someone keeps talking to me, I find it very hard to be so rude as to walk away.

tjc78

If a store walks a customer they simply didn't want to make the deal. It made no sense.

I agree, for the most part. There are exceptions to this. Back in 05 I was shopping for my Grandfather. We were working a deal on a Grand Marquis. I can't remember all the specifics, however, we were $300 apart and me being the hard-[non-permissible content removed] that I am, made him walk.

One day later, they call him and knock the $300 off to move a unit. Who knows what happened. Did they think they could put a few bucks more on his trade? Did another manager want to meet a quota that day?

oldfarmer50

"...what sized cannon..."

It was pretty small, maybe 2 feet long. The bore looked like it could take a shot that was between the size of a ping pong ball and a tennis ball. What's that, maybe a one pounder?

The last time I was there on the 4th it was pretty dark and I had consumed a lot of beer. From where I was laying it was very loud.

I'll have to pass on the tip about SOS pads.

roadburner

I appreciate your opinions and insights. Needless to say, I'll let you know what happens.

oldfarmer50

"...Trading a 4WD for a sports car 2 months before summer's end..."

I bought the Eclipse in Janurary because I figured it would sell for less. All I got for all my planning was lied to and pressured into a dealer trade instead of ordering.

If you buy it now you can always do like I did and park it in the garage and gaze at it all winter.

If you aren't in a salt state like me you could still take it out.

oldfarmer50

"...Some nice people (well, strange looking but nice) in a van pulled over to see if I need help..."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/GMC_Vandura_Campwagon.j- - pg/120px-GMC_Vandura_Campwagon.jpg

My wife is very hurt that you called her "strange".

mac24

was lied to and pressured into a dealer trade instead of ordering.

Hard to believe that a canny old farmer could be pressured into anything! :surprise:

mako1a

We don't salt (much if any) so no rusty cars. I stay put when it snows.

My problem is I have been letting a website (TOL) get to me.

They're preaching that money will become worthless, we're going to

go bust as a country, food shortages, EMP attacks, travel lockdown, etc.

I figure one last fling. Then I feel guilty in case it does come to pass

and that extra $30k would have averted disaster. It's not the dealer

or the price of the car, but the guilt trip of future events and preps.

oldfarmer50

"...Hard to believe that a canny old farmer could be pressured into anything..."

I failed to obey rule #1 in car buying, "Don't fall in love with any particular car". I had such hot pants for the Eclipse that I misunderstood a price bump for agreement to meet my price. Once I had accepted their offer I was too embarrassed to take it back. A $200 lesson.

When I bought the PT Crusier for the wife, I was much less emotionally involved and I got an extra $1K off just for the asking.

BTW, I got another letter from a different dealer wanting to buy it. His top offer is $3K less than the other guy. I'm insulted! :mad:

Dang, if those PTs aren't rare and popular cars! :P