Stories from the Sales Frontlines

driver100

1. Offer $1000 less than the fair price and start bargaining?

Roadburner...lots of good answers, I think it is about 50/50 between one and two.

I am like you, I don't want to do the dance any more. I think $1000 below fair price is a good starting point. Walking out could lose you a deal you might not be far away from, so I wouldn't walk away in the middle of negotiating...that really closes the door.

Saying you are leaving and will think about it at least leaves the door open that they may decide to go with your offer. It worked beautifully when I traded my Jeep for the X3. They gave me a final price, I said I would think about it. They called two days later and asked what I decided. I said I will buy it if you take another $1000 off the new car and give me $1000 more for the Jeep trade in. My wife thought I had a lot of nerve. They said fine, come in tomorrow and we'll do up the paperwork...and I did. I think it is important to be a thoughtful business type person....and not become a yahoo who will walk out because they don't get their way....which I know you wouldn't do (since you watch Judge Judy too).

I have a question for you. I want to keep my 328 Cabriolet a bit longer. My wife wants me to get a 5 Series because it will be safer and have more room and be more comfortable for driving to Florida in the winter, also if I get it while I am working it will have a tax advantage, and she isn't crazy about the convertible....sunlight is bad for you.......

I thought the 535xi was most practical. Then I see a video where they say if you are buying you might as well get a 550xi V8 and get a completely different car that you will really love. Now I see BMW is offering a 528xi 4 cylinder with turbo chargers that brings the HP to 245, more than the 240 hp from the 535. This sounds like a pretty unique engine and is sounding very interesting. The new 4 cylinder is supposed to really fly.

My rough thinking is to try a 528xi 4 cylinder when they come out. If I don't like it see if I can find a 2011 550xi once the 2012s come out.

Any thoughts....any one else can give their opinion.
THX

oldfarmer50

"...we're going to go bust as a country, food shortages, EMP attacks, travel lockdown, etc..."

Someone once told me that we spend 99% of our time worrying about things that never happen. Unless buying your car will make it hard to pay the bills that you KNOW are coming I wouldn't worry about all the "What ifs".

When I bought the Eclipse I knew that if I had to I could pay it off in cash. I also knew that it would take ALL the money I had. I held my breath and trusted in my ability to make enough additional money to support my family AND pay off the car. It worked out for me and I'm sure it will work out for you.

Turn off Glenn Beck and go shopping.

mac24

I think it is important to be a thoughtful business type person....and not become a yahoo who will walk out because they don't get their way....

Oh absolutely. There's a big difference between "I'm outta here!!! " :mad:
and " Gentlemen, we seem to have reached an impasse. However, if you change your minds in the next couple of days I'll be happy to hear from you." :shades:

tjc78

Now I see BMW is offering a 528xi 4 cylinder with turbo chargers that brings the HP to 245, more than the 240 hp from the 535. This sounds like a pretty unique engine and is sounding very interesting. The new 4 cylinder is supposed to really fly.

My rough thinking is to try a 528xi 4 cylinder when they come out. If I don't like it see if I can find a 2011 550xi once the 2012s come out.

As far as I know the 535 uses a turbo 6cyl with over 300HP and just recently GG was explaining how quick his 3 series is. AFAIK the 335 and 535 use the same engine.

The current 528 is rated at 240HP.

roadburner

My rough thinking is to try a 528xi 4 cylinder when they come out. If I don't like it see if I can find a 2011 550xi once the 2012s come out.

Well, the new N20 motor is designed to make more power than a naturally aspirated six while returning better fuel economy. As such, it won't be as fast as a 335i but it will be quite frugal. Me, I'd go with a 550xi- if I wanted to buy new, anyway(my favorite V8 5er is the E39 M5).
By the way, I was picking up a part at my BMW dealer today and spent some time talking to one of the salesmen who is also an HPDE instructor. He told me that -unlike the 3 Series- the F10 AWD 5er is a better drive than its RWD counterpart.

driver100

Someone once told me that we spend 99% of our time worrying about things that never happen.

I think it is actually 90% of the time we worry about things that won't happen.

There are pessimists and optimists. The optimists think the world will get better and will take risks and will get the things they want.

The pessimists believe the doomsayers who have been around forever and they make money by dispensing doom and gloom. They sound logical, just like conspiracy theorists, but they don't know any more than you or I do.

They will say they predicted there would be a bank crisis. Well if I predict it will rain I will be right one day, eventually.

Generally, the world gets better. Some great minds will work on this financial mess that has been created and things will change back to better times.

Oldfarmer, you played it right, buy the car you want but have a bit of a back up plan just in case...but, keep moving forward and be an optimist.
You can't succeed if you are going to be a pessimist.

driver100

The current 528 is rated at 240HP.

Tic78, here is the basic information on the new 2012 4 cylinder 528Xi
2012 BMW 5 Series Gets Standard 4-Cylinder Engine

oldfarmer50

I know you have suffered with your BMW but here's a Craigslist ad that will make you feel like a smart cookie with your Reatta purchase:

http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/2551492415.html

I think you paid less than half for a car with 20K less miles.

driver100

Thanks for those comments, I like the fact the N20 motor will be actually more powerful than the current 6 cylinder, and the extra fuel economy is a nice touch. The E39 M5 looks great, but that is a lot more power than I'll ever use...I wouldn't do it justice. I like the idea of this 4 cylinder turbo though.
E39:


I don't drive like this so the E39 M5 is a bit much for me:
E39 M5 on the track

explorerx4

Yes, state withholding went up and it is retroactive to January.
I had to file a CT-W4 at the last minute (payroll couldn't find one for me) and screwed up, so my paycheck dropped $80.
I'll have to review and refile it again.
I would let it ride until refund time, but I never see any of the money in those checks. It goes into the college fund.

explorerx4

If you can easily find an equivelant, you might go with #2, otherwise I woudl go with #1.

kyfdx

Something to keep in mind...

Every single dealer in Ohio charges the maximum doc fee allowed by law. $250..

"We have to charge it"
"If we don't charge everyone the same, it's illegal"
"If we charge different amounts, we'll get sued for discrimination"

You can argue all that crap, or you can just go into it knowing they'll add a $250 doc fee in the F&I office.... and account for that in your offer..

regards,
kyfdx

imidazol97

They are not required to charge it. There is no law saying they must, no matter what they claim. There is a law allowing them to charge. Ask them to show the ORC section that mandates that and then read it.

Indeed, I read the ORC section in preparation for my last car shopping, and I took a copy with me. The law actually only discussed a document fee for TIME INSTALLMENT purchases where there might actually be an amount of paperwork beyond 2 minute's worth for a clerk to do. As I read it, the law did not apply to cash payments.

I put that in the league with the Levi store at Birch Run outlet shopping in Michigan where the manager told me they were mandated by state law to require driver license to use a credit card when making a purchase. I was feeling feisty that day and had always wanted to become and attorney in my spare time in the past, so I asked him to show it to me.

He came out with a copy of a section of the law that had nothing to do with credit card purchases and ID by driver license being required. Even someone as academically lack as I am, not being an attorney, could tell the Michigan code he showed me was meaningless.

We returned to that same store on our next visit to the 100 + store shopping mall and made a purchase there with credit card just to be sure they weren't still demanding it after my letters.

mac24

You can argue all that crap, or you can just go into it knowing they'll add a $250 doc fee in the F&I office.... and account for that in your offer..

Yes, just make life simple. Negotiate an 'out the door price' that is to include everything except Tax, Tag, and Title.

Know what you feel comfortable paying and stick to it, whether you start at that figure or let them work you up to it.
I often say "I'm no good with figures, so as long as the bottom line is this, I don't care how you get to it. The doc fee can be $1K if you like, just as long as the bottom line is right."

I've had this discussion on here before and some people just can't get past the line items. They just can't live with a $1K doc fee, or a $500 pinstripe even if the bottom line is a total bargain. :sick:

verdugo

Very pretty city, stay at a B&B in the old area, and take a walking tour.

Agreed. My SIL lives in Jacksonville and she took us to St. Augustine. It was only a day trip, but I think that was enough.

verdugo

In fact I met a couple of them who were very bitter because they felt they had been cheated over the years by their supposed 'buddy' who owned the store, and who always made a point of chatting with them after church every Sunday.

Reminds me of an old episode of "King of the Hill" that I happened to catch one day. The dad had his "guy" at the dealership who always gave him the "special" price. He had been buying from him for years.

In the episode, the wife goes in to buy a car and gets a much lower price. Turns out the "special" price the husband had been getting was MSRP! He was pissed.

It was a cartoon, but it still was funny.

explorerx4

IN a related topic, Ford is putting their 4 Cyl Ecoboost engine in the Explorer.

roadburner

That's an E60 M5. Here is an E39- in my favorite color(LeMans Blue):



And while I might do one or two burnouts, I wouldn't make a habit of it... :P

driver100

IN a related topic, Ford is putting their 4 Cyl Ecoboost engine in the Explorer.

Do you get a commission for every Ford product you sell????

Didn't testing those BMWs teach you anything?

Actually, the Ford Ecoboost should be good....I still loved my Fusion 4 cylinder rental car.

Slightly related topic - My friend who loves cars tested an Eqqus before he bought his 7 Series. He was really surprised at the iPad car manual. He liked it at first, but then he thought it was very boring, just a smooth driving luxury liner...and he didn't feel involved or as I would say, the feel of the road. He is glad he took it on a long test run, because he really liked it at first.

driver100

Here is an E39- in my favorite color(LeMans Blue)

Very nice. I like the way BMW just uses some colors on some models. Reminds me of the Alpina B7. Most are a special blue.

fezo

Man, that's a nice car. BMW does some absolutely wonderful blues.

isellhondas

Thank you for that!

Of course, that's what he is asking for a car that is a lot less car than mine.

My Reatta's A/C will lietrally blow you out of the car. Imagine the small space it has to cool.

I drove it the other day and it started immediatly, no lifter noise and I honestly don't think I have ever driven a smoother, quietier car.

And I honestly think it would easily whip the BMW in a drag race.

Our son ahs a close friend who is an ace mechanic who will scan the codes tonight to at least try to figure out what is screwing up.

I do appreciate the encouragement!

roadburner

Reminds me of the Alpina B7. Most are a special blue.

The color is called -appropriately enough- "Alpina Blau II"

sterlingdog

Here's my two cents which is actually worth less than a penny. You know that I always purchase one or two year old cars. For that reason, I use a combination of #1 and #2. I begin below the fair price, negotiate for about 15 minutes, and then sit firmly on a price. I will POLITELY walk if they don't meet the firm price. The 15 minutes spent on #1 is to allow both of us to get within reach of what we want. I just make sure that it is the dealer who has to bend a little---not me. My favorite touch is to sit through the process while constantly tapping my checkbook on my knee. My combination has worked on our last two cars. As you may remember, I out did myself on the SRX. You just get better with age and experience. :P Best of luck regardless of your approach.

Richard

oldfarmer50

Never heard of this problem.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20110817/VIDEO/308179861/1439

driver100

Never heard of this problem.

It seems 2011 Sonatas with 18 inch wheels want to drift to the left. I think this particular model is for those people who love cats....these cars seem to have a mind of their own.

driver100

My favorite touch is to sit through the process while constantly tapping my checkbook on my knee.

Good plan, that way they know there is something wrong with you and they won't argue.......no one carries a check (cheque - Canadian) book around with them today.......we all have debit cards.

driver100

The color is called -appropriately enough- "Alpina Blau II"

It doesn't look Blau to me. I have seen about 6 of these cars....and they all were Alpina Blau II.

snakeweasel

Yes I have heard of this issue, on one of the Sonata threads they have talked about it and some have said they experienced it and others say they haven't. I haven't noticed it in my wifes Sonata and she hasn't said anything.

sterlingdog

Tapping my debit card on my knee just doesn't bring the same result. Years ago, on a late Saturday afternoon, I actually bought a car with my Mastercard. That was interesting.

Richard

driver100

I actually bought a car with my Mastercard. That was interesting.

Did you get airmiles? 30,000 worth of airmiles could be pretty nice.

Would they let you do it since they pay 1.5 or 2% to MC?

tjc78

Alot of dealers won't even let you put a down payment on a CC. That 1.5% adds up for them. I've also noticed that more and more places I see are having $10.00 minimums on CC purchases.

driver100

I haven't noticed it in my wifes Sonata and she hasn't said anything.

I think they did say models with 18 inch wheels, so your car may not have those wheels. Not sure why the wheel size would matter, unless they put 18 inch on one side and 17 inch on the other.

graphicguy

I go out of town for a week and you guys explode with all sorts of tantalizing posts.

Imid.....I'm not sure if that pic you posted of the Fairlane was the same one or not.

Burner....you pretty much know where I'm going to fall on the Mini. Offer what you think is a good deal and be done with it. I think from now on, I'm just going to write my deal down on a piece of paper, (including tax, license, and any doc fee I feel is appropriate) and present it to the dealer like I did the last purchase. You've got a check with the amount filled in from your offer paper. Present it to the dealer and tell them the only thing they have to do is to fill in the "Pay to the Order of" portion and the deal's done. If they reject it, or they do the "bump and grind" routine, head for the door. If the dealer wants to move it, they will. They won't let you walk. If not, then there's another Mini somewhere with your name on it.

Dealer add-ons.......I don't know if dealer add-ons would be so objectionable if they were priced reasonably. $1,000-$2,000 for a $50-$100 wax job? On a new car, no less? You've got to be kidding me. $200 for $10 worth of edge guards? Puhleeeze! $250 for 5 minutes of preparing docs for the sale? C'mon......!!!!!!!

Craig, I know how much it used to irritate you to lose a deal to another dealer for $50. But, I've been on the other end where the dealer has tried to grind me for another $50 to make a deal, too.

driver....I had heard that BMW was moving their base 3s and 5s into 4 cyl motors. They may be great engineering feats, but I've never had a 4 cyl that I enjoyed more than a 6 cyl, regardless of output. Then again, Ford is having great success in replacing their V8s in the F150s with the turbo 6 cyl.

Last time I had small motors stuffed down my throat was in the '80s. Didn't like it then. Don't think I'll like it now.

driver100

but I've never had a 4 cyl that I enjoyed more than a 6 cyl, regardless of output.

That's worth thinking about, but it would also be worth trying. Remember the new 4 has more horsepower than the 328 6 and more torque. 0 to 60 was still about 6.4 seconds if I remember correctly and the salesman said it will fly.

Also, our 99 Mercedes had a 4 cylinder with a Kompressor and it was a great car. I miss it. It had a lot more power than the 2003 6 cylinder we replaced it with.....a mistake. It's nice having the economy of a 4 cyl but the turbo power when you need it.

My BIL likes his new F150 with ecoboost...he gets great mileage for a large truck but has the power when he needs it.

Generally, I agree with you about engine power, but these new engines sound like they are worth a try. I believe the new X1 has the new 4 cylinder and I am trying to see if I can test drive one of those....just to check the engine out.

qbrozen

I believe the new X1 has the new 4 cylinder and I am trying to see if I can test drive one of those....just to check the engine out.

When is that actually coming out, though? I didn't think it was for quite some time.

edit: I just checked BMW's website and they don't even show it as a future vehicle; it is still classified as a concept.

tjc78

I've been looking at some websites, and walked a few lots recently looking for a replacement for the Genesis. I must be the fussiest person alive, there is nothing that really does it for me. The non-luxury large car choices just aren't that great. The choices are basically the Avalon, Taurus, Lucerne, Genesis, Grand Marquis, and Town Car (TC really is lux, but can be had very reasonable 1/2 years old).

Most of these choices are old outdated designs as well. The Avalon dates to 05 (newest version is only a refresh). Lucerne dates back to the 90s, GM/TC is basically unchanged since 03 (and 92 before that).

I won't get another Genesis (obviously) and the Taurus puts me off because for a fairly large car it isnt all that roomy and the driver's footwell is tiny.

I have always swore off SUV's but if you want something large there really is no other place to look. My GF LOVES the Enclave and would be in heaven if I got one, but I just don't see myself in an SUV.

I think I have pretty much set myself up for buying nothing this year. If I was forced to make a choice it would be an Avalon and I've been there and done that twice.

mac24

My GF LOVES the Enclave and would be in heaven if I got one.....

Sounds like a point in it's favor to me!

graphicguy

Don't know if any of you have already seen this, but looks like the SAAB story is finally at an end....

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/17/swedish-debt-authority-poised-to-sieze-saab-a- ssets/

oldfarmer50

"...we all have debit cards..."

Not ALL of us.

mako1a

Well, farmer, I bid on the Red Mustang until it expired.

Then I contacted the dealer with this message>

I bid higher than $27,100, but nobody would bid against me.
Are you going to stay firm on your price until Antique Plates are required to drive it off the lot? Am I the only guy that wants this car? Talk to me. I'm not afraid to buy an old new car, but you're at the limit of still being new. Soon I will worry about seals (A/C, Trans, Engine) and whether Ford will honor the warranty 4+ years after the model year. Give me a price. Tell me something. Is it actually for sale? Dave

Red 2011 Mustang

driver100

The 528Xi with a 4 cylinder engine will be out in about October, as a 2012 model. I think BMW doesn't talk much about next years cars so they can keep pushing the 2011s for as long as they can.
Read about it at BMW 528xi

This article says this, but I have talked to the salesman and he said they are taking orders for them;

Starting for the 2012 model year, the 528i will drop the 3.0-liter six in favor of a turbocharged 2.0-liter engine. Power will increase slightly from 240-hp to 245-hp, while torque gets a more significant increase rising from 230 lb-ft to 258 lb-ft. Plus, all of that torque will come on at just 1,250 rpm. Hopefully that should solve the big sedan’s sluggishness around town – which we complained about in our review.

BMW claims the new car will hit 62 mph in just 6.2 seconds, or 6.3 seconds with the 8-speed automatic.

Fuel economy is also set to increase, although official EPA numbers for the U.S. aren’t yet available.

oldfarmer50

"...My GF LOVES the Enclave...but I just don't see myself in an SUV..."

My wife's relative looked at the Enclave and found it too floaty. You might look at a Mazda CX-9 like he did. Drives more like a car than a floaty boat.

driver100

"...we all have debit cards..."Not ALL of us.

I suppose you also have a bank book. We do my mothers (94 years old) banking on the internet for her but she insists on having a bank book, and she gets it updated about every week.

Don't worry, soon you will just swipe your finger print and it will remove the money from your account.

driver100

looks like the SAAB story is finally at an end....

That's too bad....we just watched As Good as it Gets last night for the 2nd time and Jack Nicholson has a nice little Saab convertible, that really made me want to try one out again....they are pretty cool cars.

driver100

Drives more like a car than a floaty boat.

Ah, nothing like the "feel of the water" to make an enjoyable driving experience.

tjc78

My wife's relative looked at the Enclave and found it too floaty

Right up my alley then.... :P It really is a nice SUV, however, for the prices they want for them there is a lot of competition.

gogiboy

BTW, I got another letter from a different dealer wanting to buy it. His top offer is $3K less than the other guy. I'm insulted!"

OF--

Must be that time of year. I just got my second "your car is worth this much to us..." announcement. This time it was a glossy brochure and contained an exact figure for my 2007 Mazda3. Their assessment: $13,166. For giggles I checked KBB and Edmunds and the top trade-in figure listed was $12,500 (KBB) and that's $1K more than Edmunds.

This time it's a Chrysler dealer in a city about 60 miles from me. The mice type disclaimer stipulates a mile per year limit and says the offer is contingent on my car being in "good" condition. I'm not in the market for another car, but I'm guessing that any deal I made would include paying MSRP for their car with any rebates or incentives going to the dealer. The strangest part of the brochure was that the cars listed were used ones they had on their lot and they were all either the same age as my car or one year newer. Why would I want to trade for one of those?

Gogiboy

gogiboy

"He came out with a copy of a section of the law that had nothing to do with credit card purchases and ID by driver license being required. Even someone as academically lack as I am, not being an attorney, could tell the Michigan code he showed me was meaningless."

Imid--

I've driven past that mall dozens of times visiting my grandmother in Saginaw when she was alive. My brother goes there once or twice a year.

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I like it when companies ask you to show ID when using a credit card. I actually have written "must show ID" on the back of my cards, but almost no one checks. Even though the credit card companies are responsible for fraudulent charges I hate the idea of someone stealing my card and then going wild simply because no one can be bothered to spend 10 seconds verifying identity. I'd feel differently if we could get the Smart Chip and PIN cards that a lot of Europeans use.

Gogiboy

oldfarmer50

"...Is it actually for sale..."

Do you think a dealer would be sleasy enough to put a car on auction just to get leads to "come on down"?

If you don't buy that car, how am I going to drive it down to you via Canada and the west coast? :shades: