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$25 a month more for an X3 over the Passat. Things really worked out in your favor. I don't think you would have missed the Passat as much as you do the X3.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think your analysis is right on. They are very different markets. I remember a lady from Belgium was telling me she thought Supersized drinks in America were ridiculous, in Belgium a 40 ounce drink could feed a family of 4 for a week! She said a small drink in America was like a large in Europe.
And so it goes. Large portions of food, large cars, large homes, are the norm in the US. In Europe homes are generally smaller, so you see more compact washers, dryers, dishwashers, TVs. The designs have to be really well thought out and the quality is a necessity.
Not judging, just saying there are very different priorities. And, that carries over to cars. A person who owned a Corolla and decides to buy a new Jetta because it is more car for the dollar won't notice the handling isn't up to European standards....they will think they are getting a bigger car with better quality and better handling. Unfortunately, they will be disappointed in the reliability.
We have a saying in Polish that poor person can't afford a cheap stuff.
Love that saying....that is classic. I believe in that but never could express it that well.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Especially when I am wrong. I hate that feeling of;
You know when you are having an arguement and suddenly you get that sickening feeling -----oh no, I am wrong! How do I get out of this gracefully?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You are right, Europeans would buy bigger if not for fuel cost and certain tax incentives/disincentives (registration taxes and insurance rates are often based on engine displacement, with threshold of "pain" around 2 litres). Actually, you can see recent proliferation of small SUVs, tall wagons there. The market is evolving and more and more people seem to go with larger size than previously. Usually it is combined with a four cylinder turbodiesel engine (like 1.6-2.0 l) rather than those large gasoline engines we can see here.
However, my point was that their general price entry level is 50-100% higher than that here even as they buy smaller vehicles with less power (for many reasons, from taxes, to less competition within each fragmented market, size of each market) - so they buy smaller (e.g. Ford Focus/Ford Mondeo) and less frequently. However, when they buy, they demand that even smallest detail is thought through, such as good ratio between power and gas mileage, dashboard, interior space design, to fit and finish, even in low end vehicles.
In the US, on the other hand, the bottom line is exemplified by said new Accord and Camry: You see there big inches in cabin space combined with struggle for every dollar to keep base price below $20K and it shows. I drove new Accord as a rental for about a month. While I see why many would want to buy it, I would not. It is, as you said, a barge, has hard cheap plasticy look, drives so-so, but pound-for-pound costs about half of a smaller European Accord or Avensis (midsize Toyota) models sold there. Basically same people (as for income/labor/class bracket) who buy Accords/Camry/Malibu here, would buy something like diesel-powered Focus/Jetta/Golf there - that's the bottom line.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well, he is in an equity situation in it, so if he does get the 8K he wants for it there is 3K to the good here. The only thing I will add (for the OP) is be sure to get the bulk of that difference in a check NOT rolled into the lease as a cap cost reduction.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
My calculations come out to $289 + 8.625% = $313.93. Ways away from $349
If you double checked your numbers and they don’t line up with the dealers, I’d walk too.
Off to check on the odyssey next. Maybe I'll have better luck with honda.
Maybe in NY you will but in the eastern suburbs of Pittsburgh the Honda dealers are about as arrogant as ‘fez’ says the VW dealers are in his Jersey area. I work with a guy that was willing to pay $300 more for a Civic compared to an Elantra that was better equipped in ’09. He was willing to do this because he had a CRV, liked it and felt Honda’s were worth more. However, the Honda store (same salesman) wanted something like $500 more for the Civic compared to the Elantra that had standard equipment options worth about $200 more. So that really makes it $700. When he said, “are you serious? I’m willing to pay more but what makes you think you can get that much more than what I can do on an Elantra that is better equipped”? The salesman looked him right in the eye and said, “because it’s a HONDA”. This is not the only time that I’ve heard this in the past around here. Son #1 heard something similar but not quite as arrogant when he was looking in ’08. I’d be interested to know how the Honda stores operate around here now. I can’t believe they still hold to that old line.
Don’t get me wrong Honda’s are very good cars but are they worth the premium today?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Type in the search bar: VW plant Dresden, Germany and select the video by ChristianS75. The thumbnail has a photo of a gentleman standing by an old VW bug (red and cream colour).Enjoy.
Randy
Very similar to what I have said about tools for many years ”Only a rich man can afford to buy cheap tools”. When I said this to a few younger guys that I worked with back in the 80s they had to think about that for a second.
One of my favorite tales about this:
One day one of these young guys was questioned by a guy in another group as to why he bought a hammer for $10 when he could have bought one for $7. He said, “because jmonroe taught me that”. The guy that questioned him said, “but jmonroe makes more than you do”. He said, ”yeah, that’s why I did it”.
I used to get blamed for a lot of things back then. Not so much anymore after my training programs took hold.
BTW, you owe us a report on your new BMW wagon. Too bad you can’t give us a “great in the snow report” but a red light to red light report will do.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think I have figured out where the $1800 "taxes" came from. The dealership is basically giving me the National Toyota lease offer on a FWD LE. The offer is $289 a month w/$2995 down, + $650 Acq fee + Tax (897.35). Total: $4542.35.
If he's giving me 8 k on the trade and I owe $5200 that leaves a $2800 equity.
$4542.35 - $2800 = $1742.35
You know when you are having an arguement and suddenly you get that sickening feeling -----oh no, I am wrong! How do I get out of this gracefully?
OK, so when ARE you going to tell us? You never showed any outward signs of it bothering you in here and it’s not like you haven’t had MANY occurrences. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Many times you can beat the advertised deal. Check out here on Edmunds what the money factor and residual is (for your region) on the Sienna and make sure the dealer is using those figures. They can mark up the MF.
What I would do is work up the lease offer separate from the trade. Explain that you want no more than 1,000 to go toward the lease and you want a payment OTD (meaning taxes, fees everything included). Ask for everything be spelled out including what they are selling the new van for, as that is negotiable even on a lease.
If you have 2800 in equity on your old van rolling the entire thing into the lease is just as bad as putting a bunch of cash down. The dealer should have no problem cutting you a check for the difference.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D827IxEJVS4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_ULm6QrC428
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=vx5JpY9DM_k
Thank goodness for modern crash testing standards in Europe and North America. The vehicles shown in those videos are obviously a little dated, and the Chinese learn fast, so with the world manufacturers pushing production to China I'm betting their crash results will improve quickly. Just in case, though, I think I'll be hesitant to adopt Chinese cars anytime soon.
You are right, it probably does make sense to trade in now, while your car is still worth something, and you will have a new car with a 3 year warranty.
Keep in mind though, at the end of 3 years you won't have any equity in this car. If you decode to buy it the buy out cost will probably be in the $15k range.
But, I usually argue it doesn't cost too much more to drive a new car than a used one if you are careful, so I think you did think it out very well,....what you said makes sense.
I think you are correct, the extra costs were for shipping, admin, etc fees.
So, the dealer isn't really doing anything special for you. He might not have taken you seriously though, because as soon as you say another dealer offered $8500 for my trade-in, he has to say to himself, What are you doing here then? Just me, but I think it is better not to mention that, but use it for your own information to see what the dealer comes up with...if he is fair, he should come out at $8500 or more. Good luck.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It hasn't bothered me because I haven't been wrong yet! When I am I'll gladly admit it...... :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Those accidents are amazing! The 2nd one shows the truck basically disintegrating...but the pop up says the lead based paint probably held up.
And, the pop up in the last one says it is basically a face cloth thet pops up as an airbag. The driver was badly injured...shattered shoulder.
People are demanding safer cars so these cars wouldn't survive in this market. Glad we have safety standards and most companies try to comply.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Again, there was no selling price, no residual, and no MF on the sheet. Just a payment. Completely turned me off that a dealership would do business like that in 2011 when every financial calculator is available at the click of a mouse. Guess I was wrong about that. Seems like as soon as you say lease, the quotes automatically come out in monthly payment form.
I guess I can't blame them. If they can make $ on a sale, and the customer is happy with the payment, everybody wins. I just don't want to be taken advantage of.
The buyer drives the sale (pardon the pun) and it is always best to walk when your flimflam meter goes off.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Any luck with the Honda?
Personally, in the situation you're in now, I'd put together my numbers (making it fair to both sides), look up the various dealers' inventory online, and then make a plan to visit each and see who is willing to accept the terms (in person, email, or phone). Just lay it out. Let them know you're ready to buy, you've crunched the numbers, and the first to accept your offer gets the business that day. Hopefully one bites. If none do, then re-evaluate your expectations and consider changing the numbers. Around my area Toyota and Honda dealers are common, so I have that luxury, but your situation may be different.
You are new to this site but we have had saleman tell us...some people are not interested in knowing the cost of the new car or the value of their trade in...they only want to know their monthly payment. You would be surprised at how many people buy a car based on the monthly payment only.
It sounds like these dealers aren't being up front with you because they are hoping you are a monthly payment person. I understand now why you didn't buy from the first dealer who offered $8500 for your trade, it is meaningless unless it is applied to the new one.
I think you know what the lease rate should be. Why don't you try to knock a few dollars off of their price, keep your $3000 balance that you have coming to you, make sure the buy back price for the new van is reasonable...maybe 40 to 50% of the full MSRP, and then go in armed with solid information before talking to these super slick salespeople desparate to get you into an overpriced lease?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2 problems:
1) I'm at the point where i just don't want to do the song and dance anymore. Seems like none of the dealers will work with you via phone or email.
2) This is the biggest. More than half of the Toyota dealerships in the area are under one "Auto Group". Same with Toyota. Seems weird to me that one guy would have multiple dealerships of the same manufacturer. One would cannibalize the other.
So, I'm trying to find independents. I had leased from my neighborhood Honda dealer in the past and had a great experience. In that case I walked in with a manufacturer offer in my hand and said, "I want this" They said "Ok, we can do that" Was the easiest negotiation ever. LOL
I think I've mentioned this before, but I once heard an engineer European automobile describe the difference between European and American drivers:
"Europeans don't care if the brakes squeal- just as long as they stop the car.
Americans don't care if the brakes stop the car- just as long as they don't squeal."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You might try belonging to AAA. You get a price from a dealer, and they will get you the best price in the area. That worked reaqlly well for me on a Jeep. There are other organizations with similar plans.
You can buy from an out of area dealer, but still take your car to the local dealer for service.
You can try talking to a leasing company that just does leasing.
Just some possible ideas. A lot of us are tired of the dance. The best alternative is to do some homework, know what you want for your car, find out what you think is reasonable to pay on a lease, go in with your numbers. If the dealer can't do it politely say you're not interested and move on. When I bought my car...which is on a train somewhere and should be here the end of November, I went to 2 dealers to find out how much they wanted for a 2012 BMW 535iX with a trade in of a 2008 328 Cabriolet. My current dealer, Dealer A gave me price of...MSRP on a 2011, no discount because he said the price is expected to go up $2500. I figured dealers make about 8% on a car, so I was hoping to get a 4% discount.
Dealer B gave me a 5% discount on a 2012, no matter what the price was. The price did not go up so Dealer Bs price ended up much better. Plus they gave me $1200 more for my trade in......almost $5k less!
Know your numbers, and go in strong. This site helped me a lot....I wasn't going to let the dealer win and have to report back that I got beaten by a dealer after all my training right here.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Americans don't care if the brakes stop the car- just as long as they don't squeal."
THAT'S IS FUNNY
I'll 2nd that......
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Yes, Chevrolet, sounds like a good old French Canadian name. Louis was probably born in Quebec Canada**.
btw, speaking of which, can any one guess or do you remember what this car is;
**Actually, he was born in Switzerland, moved to Montreal Quebec, then moved to New York.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
One quote:
Given this competent cruising focus, one can’t help but return again and again to the savagely cheapened interior. It’s one thing to give Americans old-school engine and suspension technology, and a homogenized version of the European driving experience, but who says that we don’t want to touch nice things?
The article is at:
What happened to the 2011 Jetta
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"Exactly. People don’t avoid VWs because of their pretentious interiors. People avoid them because they are fighting it out with Land Rover and Suzuki for the title of the worst made car sold in the US year in, year out. If they’ve gotten better as some claim, they’d have had to do it since my friend bought his 2008 GTI DSG. I caught a real earful for asking a woman how she liked her 2010 Jetta Wagon TDi too. This Jetta’s landing on the market should be fun to watch. I don’t think people buy Hondas and Toyotas because they think they’re boring. I think they buy them because they want to get to work and not have to think about whether or not their car will get them there. Who is going to buy a VW that is as generic as a Corolla? There was a time when VW built cars well, but they didn’t have radiators yet."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Quite the contrary. I just had to drop by to tell you something. I could have emailed you personally, but I wanted all of the guys to hear this. If ever I have been thrilled about a friend purchasing a car, it is certainly true in your case. I know of no one who is more deserving. Your positive outlook on life has been an inspiration to all of us. I know how excited you must be, and I want you to enjoy every minute of this new driving experience.
Life is strange. It was the Solara that brought me to this site four years ago; you were among the first to calm me down and give me advice. Who would have thought that you would end up being the Solara owner? For me, it was never the car---I love them. It was the terrible experience at the Toyota dealership. I also learned from you to take responsibility for part of that bad experience. You, Mack, Isell, Houdini, Imidazol, Jmonroe and Jipster did so much to educate me regarding the ins and outs of the car world. I learned from both salesmen and customers. The successful purchase of our last three automobiles was made possible due to the knowledge and advice of the kind posters on this site. I am forever in your debt.
I can now remove the Sebring convertible from my Will. :P
My very best,
Richard
Very nice to hear from you, I hope you come back again on a regular basis.
Unfortunately, if your deal on the Solara had been consumated, Fezo might have inherited that one day. :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
While you're at it you can substitute something else just as nice or leave the Sebring to my daughter Michelle. She would LOVE it!
Just making sure you know it's me still here....
Good points. I think most people don't really know what European handling is. People buy a VW, and sales are up a lot (I see lots of newer Jettas all over the place...white, silver and black look really nice) because they think they are buying European engineering. I assumed they were made to Euro standards...even the ads on the radio say "Buy a Jetta and get Euro engineering". I guess there is some truth to this, the engineers design the car in Germany, but they are cheapened, and made in Mexico. People assume they are getting a Euro car.
90% of the population want reliable transportation at minimal cost. If they think they can get a car with Euro handling they might stray from a Honda or Toyota....but most couldn't care less about the actual handling.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I got a kick out of that one too. I’m not a fan of GM, as the regulars here know, but I’d buy a Chevy before I’d touch anything with the name VW on it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I’m glad that you did. The water in here is deep enough or shallow enough for everyone. You can play in the end that satisfies you the most.
Give it a try again.
Your old poster buddy,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Hope you find the time to post more often.
MUSTwill own one day. WOW!2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
My friend had some free time so he went to the Porsche dealer on the weekend. He said the salesman recommended the Carrera S as the best value.
My friend said the Ford dealer and Nissan dealer next door were vacant, but every salesman was busy at the Porsche store.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Well...... "there is no subsitute"
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Since you decided to post, I figured I would too.
Just got my power back today, so I didn't have much choice.
I have some great neighbors who really come through when the going gets tough.
We thought the Porsche store was busy because though many people don't have money there are quite a few who do. And, there isn't much point in investing it or saving it the way things are going, so you might as well enjoy a nice car while you can.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Most importantly they are manufacturing in Mexico and the US which eliminates the disadvantage of the Euro penalty.
From Driver:
Making the Jettas in Mexico should lead to big savings.
They have been making most Jettas in Mexico for the longest time.
Oops, I see Ty beat me to it.
That's a long time to go without power. They said there are still 11000 homes without power in CT. I don't know how you managed. How did you manage?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
A small drink in America now was a large in America 15 years ago!!
Do they really call you jmonroe at work? :P
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD