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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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The reality is that only a few percent of all activity falls into the top tenth percentile.
In my world of surveys, it all starts at 5s, and we'll work up and down from there.
In the U.S. military, quite some years ago, it was called "firewalling." If you didn't get a 10, you were a miserable failure and probably wouldn't get promoted.
God, what a system.
If all these scores were laid out together, want to bet on how nearly a bell curve the results would match? A self-selected manipulated scoring system like this sucks dishwater in gallons.
First of all, I love your description - but of course you are right!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
The only surveys worth anything were from JD Powers or similar organizations. Questions were deep and actually tried to extract information. You could see it, as many questions were somewhat repetitive, but in different context.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Yep! The challenge is to come up with a better mouse trap, so to speak.
Best way to measure satisfaction is to sit down with the customer, and ask specific open-ended as well as close-ended questions and record the entire intervew for playback with management and the sales associate with the goal being improvement, as part of a process rather than a snapshot of an experience loaded with bias and pressure. Problem is the cost involved.
Rather than measure every customer's experience, why not sample customer experiences by spending some money where the results will be more reflective of what is really happening in a dealership for those 3-6 hours it takes from greeting the customer to seeing the customer drive off in the new car? You can sample 7-10% rather than sending surveys to everyone but make sure the data is collected during a one-on-one interview. The results would certainly be more reliable!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
And any manager that does not understand this is as dumb as a sack of hammers.
On many surveys, I just refuse to respond.
I understand where you are coming from, however if the individual who spent lots of time with you and did his/her best to ensure your experience was a good one can make a few extra bucks as a result of your responses on a survey, why not complete the survey and send it in? It costs YOU nothing, but can put a few extra bucks in the salespersons pocket.
In spite if these surveys that provide inaccurate and useless info to the manufacturers, they keep using the same process and keep collecting inaccurate data. That is why I always take the time to complete JD Power surveys and 2 or 3 others I get every time I buy a car. Those are meaningful to manufacturers!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Yesterday I brought my '02 Explorer in for an oil change and tire rotation.
The first SA went for a walk around with me.
He pointed out a scrape along the left rear quarter and said I could buy some kit from 3M for about $25 that could fix it.
I didn't say anything, but it was keyed right through the paint about 4 years ago, so nothing was going to fix it except a repaint.
He conveniently skipped commenting on the cracked rear plastic panel on the rear lift gate.
It's a common problem with 02-05 Explorers.
Once done, another SA went over the status report with me, everything A-OK, and asked for the top marks on the survey.
He even shook my hand.
Of course as soon as I drove off the lot, I figured out that they didn't adjust the tires pressures, even thought they did rotate the tires.
It will take me a couple of days to get them back to the balance I like.
I bought my first car from this dealership just over 22 years ago.
Next time I'll have to ask the SA's when they started there.
It seems like they have always been there, but I'm not sure.
I'll still give the survey all top marks.
Considering 10/10 as only acceptable answer is sign of times. In school now everybody is "A" or better. Everybody is fantastic, special, remarkable. Inflation of adjectives is just increadible. Nobody wants to learn anything, everybody just wants to be graded highest.
I guess it makes sense - current managers are already from generation of "B+ is a new C", so they run the place the same way.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
A major problem with these surveys is that most if them ARE NOT ANNONYMOUS! When the survey comes in from the manufacturer, if a name is withheld, the dealership can still figure out who sent in the survey because the survey comes in under an employee's name. Based upon the scores and the date of the survey, the employee can backtrack and find out which customers he dealt with on that day and of those customers, who was upset or dissatisfied.
When I was selling cars (as a salesperson), I once got a horrible survey that came in without a name. I saw the type of vehicle it was and the date the car was sold. In that particular case, I had gone out of my way to make that customer happy - drive 55 miles to deliver the new vehicle to their home as a surprise for the wife, and the survey was scored as a ZERO! Not one criteria rated above dissatisfied. So I called the customer to find out what I had done to make him unhappy, and he said he wanted a pink ribbon on the car, not a red ribbon - and he was so upset, he SKUNKED me on the whole survey.
I rest my case about surveys.
One more thing, this guy referred many of his friends to me because I had gone out of my way to please him - bit as a result of that one survey, I lost $1500 in salary! I'll never, ever forget that for as long as I live!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I mentioned this a few years ago, but when I have a good sales or service experience I always send a letter to the sales/service manager as well as to customer relations of the parent company. While I've never been "coached" on how to complete a survey, a couple of salesmen and service writers have later thanked me for returning good surveys.
In contrast, one of my friends was buying a new Harley and the salesman told him up front that they would know if he gave them a bad survey. My friend still bought it- I would have told them to stick their Road King where the sun doesn't shine- sideways.
And I have written one polite letter describing a bad sales experience to the sales manager of the dealer involved- and it was ignored.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If you want to make a point about something in a dealership, send the letter to the owner. That will get some attention. Remember, the manager's primary job is to sell as many cars as possible at the highest profits possible, maintain high CSI, and to maintain an environment conducive to selling cars. The manager is also responsible for hiring and trainining sales personnel. These are what owner's measure their managers on. In my store, the owner personally sent out a letter to every new and idled car customer thanking them for their business and he provided his email address and direct phone number if the customer wanted to share something with the dealer principal (owner). Many customers took him up on his offer and most feedback was excellent. But when feedback was negative, I was up in his office and I better have all the facts ready to be presented.
He was a good owner, bur when he made mr lie to a customer, I quit right on the spot!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
If I had unlimited resources, I wouldn't mind one of these;
Classic Car Man Cave
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I try to develop relationships with service advisors too. I serviced my former TSX at a different dealer from where I purchased it. My service advisor knew when I called that I needed a loaner, evening drop off, & synthetic oil. A few months ago I brought my TSX in for service. In addition to the oil change/tire rotation, the left rear door lock actuator was squealing. My service advisor called me at 2:00 on a Friday to say the car would be done by 4:00. I get there @ 5:15. The car's not done. I peek into the service bay and see the door panel on my TSX is off. Long story short, they finish @ 6:45! I call my SA & leave him a VM telling him I the time I had to wait. He calls me 1st thing Monday & apologized. I told him things happen & it wasn't his fault. He tells me to please not give him a bad survey score. I told him: "Tom, so I had to wait a long time to get my car back. You ALWAYS take care of me for last 2+ years. I know that's bad score messes with your pay & I wouldn't do that to you."
Mike - I can't believe someone skunked you on a survey because the bow you put on the car was a different color. That's an unhappy low life.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I swear - that was the only reason. Throughout the entire process, he was thrilled with everything I did. I was the one who suggested that I deliver the car to Palm Beach. He said, "...don't forget the big pink bow and ribbon!"
I did everything I could to find a bow and ribbon that was pink, but the closest I could come was red. I didn't want to call him at home for fear his wife would would catch on. And what bothers me even more is that this guy was a doctor who was friendly with my nephew who is a cardiologist.
He got a great deal - invoice on the vehicle - so I made $75.00 for a mini commission and thought that with a great survey, I'd make a $100.00 bonus. Little did I know I would end up losing all survey bonuses for the month because of that SOB, $1500! I found that many doctors, not all, are primadonas who go nuts if their instructions are not followed to the letter.
I HATE THIS GUY!!!!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
The best finance rates, as advertised on the Edmunds site was 1.9% financing for up to 60 months. So, he asks me if he can get that rate - which he more than qualified for. I go back to the manager's desk and sat down to pull up his Beacon score. The owner happened to be there and asked what I was doing. I told him. He said, "...go tell him the best rates available are 3.9%. I told him that the customer knows that the manufacturer's rates are 1.9%. He says, "...I don't care, tell him what I said." I told him I'm not going to lie to a customer, you know me better than that! He said, "...maybe you should look for another job!"
I stood up, handed him my name tag and the keys to the dealership and left.
Sure, he called me scores of times, but I would never work for him again. Even with the offer of $200,000 a year!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
It is very difficult to take a high road, especially in such a moment, when you somebody directly tells you do this or else. Kudos to you, man!
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Or any one who has a super big ego or who likes to pull power trips....because of their own inadequacies.
I learned you can sometimes try to do the right thing, and it bites you in the a--. I was teaching driving to high school students and one girl who couldn't speak English well wasn't ready for the test. I tried to explain as nicely as I could she would require extra lessons or she would be wasting her time. She complained to her parents and then the AAA that I hadn't taught her how to drive properly and they expected her to be able to get a license after 8 hours in the car. The 8 hours only works if you practice at home as well....that's the way you learn most things.
The head of the driving school came to my defence because he knew I had a high rate of students who passed the driving test. But, I spent extra time to explain to this student why she needed more time, and they reported me. The lesson I learned was you can be kind to people, but they don't always get the fact you are trying to do them a favor.
When a salesman gets a bad score he should be allowed a chance to explain it....guilty with an explanation.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Pathetic. The customer is pretty knowledgeable so as soon as you pull the 3.9% he is going to walk.
What was accomplished....nothing, a lost sale and the guy won't be back and he will tell every one he knows not to go to that dealer.
My BMW dealer wouldn't discount a 2012 car before they came out. I bought my car at another dealer, if we buy my wife's car later this year it will be at the new dealer, her car got new tires and an alignment for $1700, and it wasn't at my old dealers. Not to mention all the people I tell no to go there.
You did the right thing....not too many would these days, but, that owner was a dope!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Doesn't make them good people either. Yes, it is the dealers choice and he can charge full MSRP if he wants to....he's not a criminal for doing it.
I don't think he is being fair to me the potential customer because he is counting on me to go along with his pricing just because most people in his area that he sells to don't care if his prices are high. Now I know he charges more than the others, so I can choose not to do business with him.
As for Best Buy, their prices are higher for a very good reason, they have brick and mortar stores and sales people to pay and lots of extra overhead. I don't fault them for charging more. This BMW dealer prefers to sell fewer cars but at a larger profit margin...nothing illegal.......but, I still don't have to shop there and I will tell anyone who asks why I wouldn't buy from him.
btw, I think this BMW dealer is ethically unfair, because a repeat customer should be offered a fair price, there shouldn't be a 10% difference!
Even more important, it is lying by omission! Although it isn't an outright lie, it is still being dishonest to sell a car at MSRP when almost every dealer will discount.
Not quite as bad as outright lying, the owner can probably live with himself and justify it.
I think an ethical company tries to offer products at a fair price, not always the lowest price, but a fair price. Charging full MSRP when it is rarely done is not being fair and ethical, I choose not to do business with them and even more important, I just don't trust them.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Using your logic of fairness and business ethics, there should also be a reciprocicty, obligating you decline discount deeper than market value or dealer's cost and insisting you pay more because it was the right thing to do. Any time you demanded a price being lowered below market value, or dealer cost, you'd commit just about same violation as you are accusing your dealer - you make a poor dealer lose money, or say not make enough to pay his people.
From his perspective, he has served you dutifully for ten years and now you dare to ask for discount when others pay full price. See how absurd that view is? It is just as absurd to get angry just because somebody made an unsatisfactory price offer.
In free market there is a price discovery process, in which when people ask too much, other people refuse to enter the transaction. The key is disclosure.
In my opinion, the dealer can ask for the moon, as long as they are upfront about it. As long as they don't claim to be lowest price in town, or similar nonsense, or spring up last minute charges, they can ask whatever they think is right. I' not saying they should, as it may not be smart, but they have full right, both legal and moral.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Try buying a 2013 Mustang. If you get $500 below MSRP
you're an ace negotiator. Next move - Pay the Lady.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
It could be ME and if it is, I apologize, but I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what you are both talking about. Sorry, but I've read and re-read your posts, but I am totally confused. Like I said, it could just be my fault as I don't understand what you are both trying to say.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
You make a good case, but I still respectfully disagree. First, let me tell you have a real life experience with a shipping company we used to transport books from England to Canada.
When we signed up with them they had the best rates we could find. If another company tried for that business I would give them about 6 loads to compare prices. They don't know what I am charged, but some give a price 5 to 10% lower. I wouldn't switch for that amount, they would just charge more eventually and I am quite happy with the company I am using.
One day another guy drops in....and his prices are 50% to 70% less. We tried them and their prices were that much better, and they are faster and more efficient. btw, we are talking about around $200000 worth of shipping a year. The original company wants to see if they can trim the price and they should have been giving us a volume discount all those years.....if they can match the prices of the new guys will we go back with them.
Well, the fact is I trusted them more than I should have. I am a very trusting person, but, if someone messes it up, then the trust is gone. You could say, the original company didn't do anything wrong, they can charge what they want to charge. I think they were morally and ethically wrong to treat a good customer who never complained and trusted them to give me good service at a fair price. It's a fine line and you can successfully argue it's up to me to be on guard for people who don't have my interests in mind.....but I think a successful honest business person will also try to do the best they can for the customer while still making a reasonable profit.
You sound like someone I know who has an MBA and has a different idea on how business should work. Charge what the traffic will bear and maximize the immediate profit. I don't agree, I can do more volume and make more profit by lowering prices and giving customers great value and a positive experience, they come back and they tell other people. Not only that, I sell more and I pay back my suppliers faster. If I charged full retail for a car the customer could buy for a discount 30 minutes away I shouldn't be in business.
Using that way of judging, these guys that do home improvements and do a poor job are ethical, after all there is no guideline. He charges what he wants to charge, buyer should have asked and compared his work beforehand. Yes, true, but there should be protection from the unscrupulous. I guess the Wall Street bankers did nothing wrong ethically, stretched the rules a bit but if you are naive enough to trust them it's your decision to make.
I believe in the free market system, but there are guidelines and moral judgements to make. I did some homework so found a dealer who was fair, and made a profit, and will make a profit on our next car. Some people aren't as knowledgeable about car buying and they trust the dealership. It doesn't mean he is right in taking advantage of them, when the industry standard is to give a 3 or 4% discount.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Mako, I think you can do a lot better than $500 if you really shopped around, and part of the problem is you are ordering a 2013 so there is a little less bargaining power. I find it hard to believe you can't email a dealer and give them a price $2000 below MSRP and tell them you will give them your credit card and will sign the papers right then and there. That should get you at least $1000 bucks off.
Be sure to do this near the end of the month.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Dino is pretty literate, I am really rushed today so my posts are disjointed.
I said I tried to buy my car from a dealer who wanted me to pay full MSRP for a 2012 car. This was the dealer where I bought my previous 3 BMWs. I saved $1000s by going to another dealer. I said the original dealer, who was charging me full MSRP (actually more because he said the 2012s would cost $2500 more which they didn't) was unethical (not dishonest).
I believe Dino is saying the dealer can sell the car for whatever he wants, that doesn't make the dealer unethical.
You said your boss made you lie about the financing rate. I said a dealer who charges full msrp when others discount is not fair and I wouldn't trust him (almost as bad as lying as far as I am concerned).
I guess it depends on where you draw the line of what is reasonable and fair. Technically, I agree, the dealer hasn't broken any laws, but, I wouldn't trust him.
That will probably confuse you even more, but if you have an opinion on dealers who charge full msrp then go ahead and just let us know what you think.
btw I usually go in to a dealer and see what kind of price they give me. If they start by giving me full price and don't mention discounts pretty quickly they will lose me as a customer. I test car sales people in that way to some degree. If they aren't offering any discount pretty early in the negotiations they must think I don't know what I am doing.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I have no real idea how to run a business - I can only say what looks like a good idea, what does not. Your dealer of 10 years obviously misjudged your resolve and their pricing power. That happens all the time, it is a part of the economy, just as much as successful transactions.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That's fair, except I wasn't angry about not getting a discount. That I agree, is completely up to the dealer. I was upset (I don't get angry very often) about the way my wife and I were treated.
I was told, not by the salesman, but by the manager who came storming into the cubicle that he doesn't give cars away, he doesn't discount the old 2011s on his lot by more than $1500, and he for sure isn't going to sell me a 2012 for a larger discount than he sells his 2011s for. Then he says he will sell me a demonstrator that is covered in mud for the price I am willing to pay.
I agree, he can sell his cars for whatever he wants to sell them for, but I don't want to listen to him ranting and raving and implying that for what I was offering he was going to sell me a demo. There was a better way to handle it. My wife who seldom gets upset was really upset, and that surprised me. I thought maybe I was just being overly sensitive, but she couldn't believe the manager became a raving lunatic because I wouldn't pay full price.
I agree, he can sell the car for any price he wants. I just think he is not being fair, so I would probably never buy a car from him again. The dealer I bought from said he would give me a good discount from the beginning. When we got down to business he was upfront and fast he would take 4% off what ever the invoice was. I think he was fair and ethical and I trust him. I don't trust the previous dealer. I was upset at the way my wife and I were treated, not at the actual price. The total affect, the managers attitude plus the full price make me not want to go back there again.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It is by no means unethical. The dealer has every right to ask anything he wants for the car. However, he isn't going to sell many cars at that price. One other thing, if Driver has been loyal to this dealer, as it would appear he has been, it certainly would be expected that the dealer would provide, at the very least, competitive pricing on the new 335i. To expect MSRP from him may be ethical and moral, but it sure isn't very good business sense. The dealer took a very risky chance by demanding MSRP - he lost a good customer.
When I went looking for the 2013 GS350, the first dealer I went to close to my house wanted almost full MSRP (took off $750 from MSRP) and did not even mention the conquest certificate for $1500. That dealer may have been moral and ethical, by definition, but he didn't get to sell me a car. The dealer that is 25 miles away got my business instead because he did everything he could to sell me a car - even bent over backwards
When I was managing a dealership, my pricing started at MSRP, but always ended up with a 5% - 6% discount off MSRP. Remember, if I presented a 6% discount right off the bat, the customer would negotiate another 5% off, which would be below invoice. I did not do anything immoral or unethical, I just set the start of negotiations at sticker knowing full well I would be a few hundred over invoice within 25 minutes.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Me too, but I try to keep a sense of fairness, and I believe people will respect that too. I watched a program about Price Club the other day. They have kept the price of a hotdog and a drink at $1.50 for about 10 years. No other company does that. Instead of raising prices they found ways to keep the price under control, they started actually making the hotdogs themselves, and they stopped using cans of soda and used a fountain machine.
That to me is true marketing, finding ways to give the customer the best shopping experience possible. I don't go there too often to shop because I don't like big stores, but that is great marketing and gives the customer a tremendous value. Just charging full price for a car is unimaginative and arrogant. I'll go to the guy who will go out of his way to give me a better deal.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It is my understanding that with automatics that have a manual mode their is a failsafe that will upshift when there is a danger of over-reving, I know the wifes Sonata will upshift automatically in manual mode once the revs get to high.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is another part of, what I call, American corporation-style business. Customer's loyalty is almost universally seen as an invitation to charge higher price next time (higher by more than just legitimate cost increase). The focus on new business is so much greater than keeping existing one, it is almost comical, if it wasn't so infuriating at times. This is especially true for consumer-oriented businesses. The moment they feel you won't check somebody else, they sneak in the price increase.
However, to me it is not matter of ethics, or lack thereof. Rather, I see it in terms of smart/not smart. I'm not exactly happy about that, either. However, I adapt and move on.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You got it exactly! I think we all agree on that point. I think I am taking it one step further in that although the dealer wasn't dishonest, he has lost my trust. I think he works on a different principle, he probably thinks I can sell half the number of cars and still make the same profit if I don't discount.
That's his call and he can do as he pleases, Homey don't want to play that game though, so I'll go somewhere else.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
My sister does that but she also puts any condiments used along with the cheese.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As someone who sees things from both perspectives (manager of a car dealership and a frequent car buyer), new business is always important for growth, BUT OLD BUSINESS is more important!!!
Those of us who took economics in college are familiar with Marginal Costs. As a review, once marginal costs are achieved (costs of doing business such as overhead, salaries, mortgage payments, cost of products, and other costs, taxes, etc.) anything above that is profit. Unless you have regular repeat customers to whom you sell cars to for close to cost, it becomes difficult to achieve marginal costs with just new business.
As an example, Michelin Tire Company sells tires to auto manufacturers at cost - the actual cost of the materials, overhead, etc. thus, they are able to purchase raw materials in huge quantities at much lower costs because they buy in huge bulk. Now, they literally give the tires away to auto manufacturers, but the now produce tires at a lower cost and sell them at full price or a slightly discounted price at their tire dealerships, but are making greater profits.
The same is true in the auto business. When a dealer can sell 300 cars a month rather than 200 cars a month, the additional 100 cars can be sold at or just above cost, but the might get 25 more incentive certificates (like conquest which is earned by total car sales - i.e. can get more incentives than the dealer across town). Now he has met his marginal costs by increased sales, but can earn more profit on the other 200 cars.
To achieve these marginal costs, a dealer must depend on old business or repeat customers. He doesn't make as much on these customers, but their business gets them to their marginal costs.
Does anyone understand what I am trying to communicat?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
There are also countless examples of "special private sales events", where as a thank you you get an opportunity to buy a marked up stuff that is available elsewhere for less. We have special anniversary wheel set, made just for you Mr. Customer. It is $2999 - absolute bargain, just about 30% more than same set available at local tire store. Didn't happen to me, but I read about this one.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
All good shoppers never trust anyone! I am one of those people! Bought 5 new Mercedes Benz E350's from from Delray Mercedes. Just before I bought or ordered a car from them, I checked out two other dealers, but Delray was always the best price, best treatment, etc. I probably could have trusted them implicitly, but it's just not my nature.
You, on the other hand put your trust in that dealership and when they took advantage of that trust, you did exactly what you should have done - blow them a kiss goodbye and never look back. If you acted more like me (not that you should or have to), before going in to your trusted dealership, had you priced the new ordered car in at least two other places, you would have entered your favorite dealership with ammunition. Here is an example of the possible conversation:
"Well I'm here to order my 2012 335i. I trust you, as you know, to get me the very best pricing - after all, I am a loyal customer!"
"I know that but you have to understand that this 3 Series BMW is a newly designed 3 series so I can take your order, but it has to be at MSRP!"
"Hmm, you mean you can't discount the car on an order like Hudson BMW or Autohaus BMW? Too bad, I always trusted you to get me the best price!"
You then stand, shake his hand and head for the door. If the manager comes running after you, like I would have, stop, turn, listen to his offer, and decide. You see, in this scenario, YOU ARE THE ONE IN CHARGE, NOT THE DEALERSHIP!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Insurance companies are just as bad as car dealerships. I happen to live in a section of Southeast Florida that seems to get rated high by insurance companies. Florida, in general, is one of the most expensive areas of the country to buy insurance. First, we have required $10,000 PIP (personal injury protection) or what they call "no fault". If in an accident, it pays your medical bills up to $10,000, no matter who is at fault. There has been almost 2 billion dollars in faked accidents and fraud down here. So the cost of the required PIP has gone through the roof - more expensive than collision or comprehensive. So expensive that 10% of drivers don't carry any insurance (required here in FL), so now I have to carry uninsured/underinsured motorist insurance. It's too expensive for many drivers.
I always use Allstate, Geico, Progressive or other A rated companies. But I always shop. In December, my rates went up another $100 (third time in a row, and I have no tickets or accidents). So I shopped, as usual. Liberty Mutual gave me a quote on a yearly policy that was $611 less, so I went with them and because they are yearly, no increases after 6 months.
If I was not a shopper, I would still be paying $1650 a year for insurance instead of $1039.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"Hmm, you mean you can't discount the car on an order like Hudson BMW or Autohaus BMW? Too bad, I always trusted you to get me the best price!"
Mike, I understood your profit model in the previous post perfectly, and that is the way smart business should be done these days.
In the question and answer model above I could go along with that...you are a reasonable human being and I can work with that just fine. I would prefer if you would start out by saying you are a valued customer and I will certainly do my best to get you into a 335 (actually a 535xi) at the best price possible. I really want you to say it first before I have to ask for it. That's the way it worked when I had the best car buying experiences.
I shouldn't have to fight to get a decent discount.
In the scenario you outlined I can work with that, not my favorite but fair enough. In my case the salesman I bought from said he would give me a good discount....around the 4% range as soon as we started talking. He gave me that and I did fight to get more on the trade in but that's ok, they know what they can get for the trade in. I am not a grinder, if it sounds fair I will buy the car. I don't shop around to get the lowest price, I might compare 1 or two other dealers just to make sure the price seems fair.
They want $23650 for the Passat we want to buy in Florida. The salesman was good, wrote it up and gave us an out the door price. I am not sure it is a good price but I like the salesman. Edmunds gives the best price as $23276. I am going to email him that price and say if he will sell at that price we have a deal....we'll put a downpayment on my VISA.
My original BMW sales manager said I don't discount new cars, I give you $1500 on a 2011 that's still on the lot, why would I discount a car that's not out yet. Talk about lying, he also said the 2012 won't change much so the 2011 will only be worth $1000 less when you go to trade it in 4 years from now. That's why I was upset and why I don't trust them any more. I told this story at the time back in September, but this is new to you and hopefully you can see why I do want the truth. I don't have the patience for people who lie and that is another reason I doubt I will go back to that dealership....I would probably buy an Audi or MB or a Lexus before I would go back there again.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Insurance companies are VERY different from car dealers. They can't charge you more or less than a neighbor of yours who has the same year car, same driving record, same credit score, etc. They are bound by state law to offer you the same rates. It's all handled by their underwriters.
That doesn't stop another insurance company from offering you better rates. What determines your rate is the type of car, equipment and safety features, you location (city, suburb or rural - theft frequency - accident frequency in your area, etc.), driving record, cost of the car, #of accidents where you were at fault, your credit rating, income level, highest level of education, marital status, age, gender, to name a few. The underwriting arm of the insurance company takes all of these things into consideration, + other variables. But, they cannot charge you 1 penny more than someone else in your underwriting category - by law.
Car dealers don't use underwriters to determine the price of a car - the have MSRP and invoice + incentives etc. So what you pay for a car is not necessarily what someone else would pay for that same car.
Car dealers are, for the most part, like most other businesses. Just like Brandsmart or Best Buy. But there is one difference - they take into consideration TRADE-INS. That is where they can make their money. Do long as the customer knows about what there car IS REALLY WORTH, wholesale, the customer won't get hurt. But go in not knowing, they'll pick your pockets! They are still as unscrupulous as they used to be.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It's all underwriting, believe me. Even one digit difference in zip codes can change rates by as much as 20%. And those colleagues of yours don't all have the same driving records, cars, children living at home, credit scores, identical cars - some of which are leased and others owned, miles driven per year, etc. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift. There are at least 30 variables that go into determining auto insurance rates - all prioritized by underwriting. No two insurance companies weight variables the same in their underwriting divisions.
That's why rates differ from person to person, city to city, rtc
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I have tried for years to get insured by USAA because they are a great company. Every time I get a quote, they are over $2200 a year. Then I try the Hartford through AARP, and they are over 2,000 a year. Remember, no tickets, no accidents, 8500 miles a year for pleasure driving only, PhD in administrative education, retired, credit score over 807, no late payments, live in gated community, in other words, a preferred risk background for any company, but insurance rates through the roof. When Allstate went from $576 every 6 months to $845 every 6 months, just based on.staged accidents and increased costs for PIP, I had enough. Was with Geico 6 months, Progressive 6 months, back to Allstate for 6 months and now with Liberty Mutual, lowest rates by far. They had a special 10% discount for Mercedes. But now, at renewal, I will replace the Mercedes discount with the NYU discount. And with my Defensive Driving Class, another 10%. Really pays to take that defensive driving course since it saves me another 10%.
All this movement from company to company because of outrageous increases in premiums in Floida due to PIP. The need to get rid of it, period. When a 10,000 dollar coverage is higher in cost than collision or comprehensive, something is very wrong. Florida just tightened up the PIP last month, but the crooks will just find another way around it and insurance rates will not go down, as the legislature promised. We pay more here in Florida for auto insurance than 90% of the rest of the country due to the PIP requirement and the PIP fraud which is out of hand!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger