Stories from the Sales Frontlines

abacomike

quite upset with the demise of the Panther

I've been looking back on the posts regarding the towncar, and I guess I missed something. Aren't the Towncars still built in Canada? I saw them on the lot of our local Lincoln dealership and asked if they were new or used. The response was that the were new. Using logic and deductive reasoning from the posts, it would seem that production has ceased! Am I correct?

Too bad - a local limo company always remarked toe that putting 300,000 miles on a Lincoln Towncar was almost broken in and 500,000 miles was expected - of course with extra care on maintenance. Nothing out there now to really take its place!

tjc78

The last Panther was produced late last year. The CV/GM were manufactured in Canada and the TC was made in Wixom, MI. Sometime in 07 or 08 the TC was also shifted to Canada.

The plant that made the Panthers is now also closed (St Thomas Assembly Plant (STAP).

STAP

The Panther had a hell of an automotive run. 1979-2011. It was also the last full frame vehicle made.

cdnpinhead

I've even seen a hearse conversion.

That's certainly appropriate, given the Lincoln demographic.

stickguy

a black one just drove down my street. Certainly no conversion needed ont he outside. A set of curtains, and good to go!

tjc78

Certainly no conversion needed

OTOH..... a little custom work never hurts :surprise:

m6vx

Today I received a big "Airmail Overnight Envelope", with a car key glued to the outside in an area marked "attachments". In the "Official Use Only" section, "Clerk 273" paid for "Postage, Certified Fee, Return Recipt Fee, Restricted Delivery Fee". That's awfully nice of them considering we've never met.

Opening the envelope, I see "HUNDREDS OF VEHICLES TO BE SOLD IMMEDIATELY!". OK, now you've got my attention.
I see a sharp looking Lincoln ($59 per month), an nice Audi TT ($99 per month), and an older Chevy S10 Blazer ($119 per month). "What's these little asterisks", I wonder.

Down below:
2003 Lincoln LS, $5195, $2000 down plus tax, title, license, and $190 doc fee. $59/month for 72 months at 4.9%.
2001 Audio TT (yes, it said AUDIO), $6975, $1500 down plus...... 72 months also. I stopped reading. By the time this AUDIO is paid off in 2018, it will be a 17 year old car. Makes me want to run down there and make a deal! Or not.

Also included on the flier:
1. "PREFERRED CUSTOMER": I've never done business with this dealer.
2. "CREDIT FORGIVENESS Even if your credit is destroyed - Bankruptcy, Charge-offs, Divorce, Repossession, Tax liens, Credit Card difficulties -- CREDIT FORGIVENESS GETS YOU THE CREDIT YOU NEED!" I don't have any of those, so I'm probably out of luck.
3. "NO PAYMENTS FOR 90 DAYS!": Oh good, the final payment can be made in August 2018.
4. $2000 "for your down payment assistance" payable to "PREFERRED CUSTOMER". They don't even know my name.
5. MAXIMUM $ FOR YOUR TRADE-IN. Well, I would hope so. My trade in would be years newer than what they're trying to sell me.

It's said to think that people actually buy cars this way.

I'm still not sure what I should do with the car key they sent me.

robr2

Yep - the last Panther was built in August 2011.

Ford is pushing the Lincoln MKT for livery business - it's a two row with the second row pushed back for legroom. In reality the black car business isn't that profitable for a manufacturer.

abacomike

I'm still not sure what I should do with the key?

When I was in the business, we did some advertising using a cheap car key - if it opened the car on the showroom floor, you won a new car! I didn't like these types of advertising campaigns because we would be inundated with people trying their keys and then immediately walking out to their car, which was running for the quick get-away! Never gave a car away (owner had an insurance policy to protect himself if a winner did come in - cost him a few thousand bucks).

On your case, the key probably fit nothing - just a gimmick to whet your appetite for one of those cars (some probably hybrids - 1/2 of a Lincoln welded to another 1/2 of a Mercury - I've seen a few like that in my day with the owner telling me the trade was never in an accident - RIGHT!)

Got to be very careful of those gimmicks - lots of crooks out there. What got me intrigued was the overnight mail - haven't seen that one before.

nyccarguy

Yeah, there are still tons of (lincoln Town Car) gypsy cabs running around the streets of the South Bronx. Ever since the gas started going sky high a few years back, most of the new gypsy cabs are Toyota Camrys.

fezo

It's stunning how many Camry hybrids are in taxi service now.

When I was in DC several months back we grabbed a taxi after we were worn out from walking to get back to the car. I asked the driver - it had 350K on it (Crown Vic) and was in tremendous shape. He took insane care of it.

tjc78

it had 350K on it (Crown Vic)

I would love to see a TCH make it to 350K. I don't see it happening. We have two 07 Camrys at work with 150K+ and they are still solid but the one needs a lot of front end work. We once had a salesman get a Maxima to 270K, but it was basically dead and all highway driven versus the NYC streets stop-n-go.

There is not a doubt in my mind the taxi drivers/limo companies are going to miss the Panther. The durability makes up for the marginal gas mileage.

kyfdx

35 mpg vs. 12 mpg?

Guessing you could afford to buy two Camry Hybrids for every Crown Vic..

abacomike

There is no doubt in my mind the taxi drivers/limo companies

Down here in Florida I've seen a lot of limo drivers driving Hundai Genesis sedans - in black of course. I called a limo service to take me to Palm Beach International Airport to catch a flight to Dallas (Ft. Lauderdale flights were sold out and I don't like leaving my car at the airport). The company asked me how many passengers and I responded 1. They picked me up in a Genesis. While the driver and I talked, I questioned him why they asked me about the number of passengers and he responded that if I had 4, they send an Eqquis.

Very interesting, To say the least.

stickguy

they last, but there is a measure of George's axe going on. I remember reading a piece in Car & Driver about the massive repair operation somewhere in the city. Runs 24/7 repairing cabs, and has enough parts on hand to probably make a brand new car.

So some of it is inherent durability, but a lot of it is they are pretty easy to work on, so can keep getting rebuilt as needed.

tjc78

The gas mileage is a huge point, but I would love to know real world maintenance costs for a TCH over a Vic. The Vics really need next to nothing and hold up really well. Are there reports of TCHs exceeding 200K? Imagine if they have to replace the batteries during the lifetime of the car.

It would be interesting to know if the fuel savings make up for the other costs during the long haul.

fezo

Funny thing about the repair outfits. When I was a very young dude I missed my real chance to marry into money. Only child of the guy who had the market cornered for repair parts for all the taxis in DC.

imidazol97

>Today I received a big "Airmail Overnight Envelope",

Was it in your regular mail or was it delivered by FedEx, Express Mail, etc.?

jipster

Welcome. Great story. Can't believe no one else commented. I probably would have wrestled the pen out of the S.O.B's hand. :P

I've been looking at used Ford Fusions (i.e 2007 SE, 85k miles, $10.9) the past few months. I've made 2 offers. Had to walk away. Dealership will discount about $1,000... say they don't "overprice" like they had in the past due to internet shoppers. so, can't offer a big discount. Still, when you look at wholesale price, then the dealerships asking price, you're looking at a 3 or $4k spread. Demand for used cars up, I know. Any tips for the ole jips?

fezo

We've reached the point where the jipster himself is looking for advice?

Guess my car buying days are over. :sick:

abacomike

Any tips for the ole jips

First, if I wrestled the pen out of the SOB's hands, I would have lost a sale and the second time he was in with his wife, I got full MSRP! Owner of the dealership got me a new one anyway (pen, not a car).

Secondly, i don't know the balue of Fusions, so this is hypothetical! The used car market has been super strong over the past couple of years. Fusions are no exception. Also, remember dealerships make more on used/traded vehicles than they do on most new car deals. Let's say they took in a Fusion with 45K miles and allowed 8,000 dollars on it. It costs him $1500 - $2000 to get it ready for sale (new tires, a brake job, refurbishing, etc). He now asks $11,500 to $12,500 for the car, depending on year (2008 - 2009).

In this market, I'd buy the car from a private party - just have it looked over and analyzed carefully before buying!

jipster

We've reached the point where the jipster himself is looking for advice?

nahhh.... I was just testing the new guy out.

jipster

First, if I wrestled the pen out of the SOB's hands, I would have lost a sale

Didn't say that's what you should have done. Jokingly said that's what I would have done, as indicated by the " :P " emotorcon.

In this market, I'd buy the car from a private party

Sounds good, but I don't think there are any private party sellers out there. Seriously. Just about everything I've seen (craigslist, local advertising) are curbstoners out to make a buck. Which is fine, but many lie about the history of the vehicle worse than some dealerships I've been to. I've tried to stay away from the private selling wholesalers. To find something you're looking for, from a "real" private seller... with the right year, model, and mileage is difficult.

The Fusion I looked at last week "didn't need anything but an oil change" according to the sales manager I talked to. Nice guy. His saleslady lied to me though, to get me to come into the store. Said she put her hands on the car to make sure it was there. When I got there she said she was looking at the wrong car (this lady had been at this particular dealership for at least 8 years. I talked to her at a 2004 car show over the new 2004 Nissan Quest... which turned out to be a piece of crap) So, I'm dealing with liars all around, which I pretty much expected, but not to such a degree.

So fezo, I guess all this means: research & stick to a price you are willing to pay, remain calm and respectful, walk if a deal can't be made, stay patient, and finally... don't trust nobody but mama.

abacomike

Was down at my Lexus dealer this morning to have one of their Geek Specialists help me with getting Pandora Radio set up on the new car without direct streaming from the iPhone, but rather through the Lexus ENFORM software built into the computer and navigation system. No luck yet, but we've got Lexus in Torrence, CA involved.

Then I got a call late this afternoon from Torrence checking to see if we got the problem solved. This young man - without a doubt a SUPER GEEK - said he would contact my dealer with some solutions and that I should expect a call from the dealer tomorrow.

Quite frankly, not having Pandora stream music through LEXUS ENFORM into the car would not be the end of the world, which I shared with Torrence and the dealer - just a nice feature to have when you want another music source if satellite, FM HD, or CD/DVD becomes boring as if that will happen anytime soon. Torrence and the dealer responded that this is a major priority with them to ensure I am completely satisfied with the new GS350.

I've had MINOR problems with BMW and Mercedes over the years, but I never had so many people so interested in my complete satisfaction. Lexus and their dealership and corporate support systems are certainly a step above the others from what I gather from this minor and insignificant issue. But, they said that Bing, Pandora, and a few other applications should run perfectly as they advertise and the won't be satisfied until I am completely satisfied!

Impressive, to say the least!

abacomike

In this market I'd buy the car from a private party

No question that patience is a virtue! Waiting for the right car from the right source is, of course, the best way to buy a car. CARFAX histories can be helpful in many cases, but not all due to limits on available info on the car you are interested in. I used CARFAX frequently because some info is better than no info. Buying from a dealer can be better if the dealership's reputation is good. And there are more legal protections afforded buyers purchasing from a reputable dealer.

I'd be interested in hearing if you are successful! GOOD LUCK.

driver100

Sounds good, but I don't think there are any private party sellers out there.

Yeh, I saw a report on Canadian TV that said 1/3 of private sales were made by curbsiders. A lot of the cars they were selling were supposed to be written off, some were put together from various cars to make one car. These sellers were ruthless psychopaths. How much is a 1 or 2 year old Fusion from a legitimate dealer who will guaranty it. To pay $10k for a car with 85k on it sounds like a lot of years of driving used up - the best years may I add, when you can get a car with maybe 10k or 20k miles for under $20k.

jipster

I used CARFAX

I've probably looked at a hundred or so Carfax reports in the last couple of months. They don't tell the whole story, but as you note, some info is better than none. Not only do you get accident history from Carfax, but also maintenance logs. Some Carfax reports you'll see that the oil was changed every 3,000 miles, transmission flushed, tune-up etc. Other reports you'll just see that the registration was renewed every year. A dealership that offers free Carfax reports online is a pretty good indicator that they may be a more "reputable" dealership to deal with. The bigger dealerships usually offer that service.

One thing you'll note from time to time when reading a Carfax report is something along the lines of, "vehicles powertrain control module checked". Then nothing about it being repaired. If the car is sold shortly after this, would be a big red flag to me. If vehicle kept by owner, maybe okay, maybe not. So, you can connect the dots a bit, and get a better idea of how well the car was taken care of, by using Carfax.(and no I don't work for Carfax)

Searching dealer inventory on Edmunds, you get something called Autocheck. Don't care for it as much. It doesn't offer any maintence records. Dealerships that don't offer the 3 month used car warranty usually carry Autocheck. At least that's what I've noted thus far.

oh, I will definitley let you guys know when I buy a car. Hopefully it will be as interesting of a story as the one you told about the S.O.B that stole your pen.

jipster

Yeh, I saw a report on Canadian TV that said 1/3 of private sales were made by curbstoners

Wow. Seems a lot higher than that in the Louisville area. The curbstoners on Craiglist usually say something like, " My 2007 Ford Fusion for sale, moving to Afghanistan to fight terrorism shortly, it grate shape, red is colour." Then when you call and ask how long they've owned it, they say "3 weeks, but best 3 weeks of my life." lol.

To pay $10k for a car with 85k on it sounds like a lot of years of driving used up -

I agree... and that's the low end in mileage. Unbelievable the number of cars out there, with well over 100,000 miles, with over a $10k price tag. Thought about looking at new cars. In no hurry though. Buick Regal still running great (knock on wood)

abacomike

I used CARFAX...

jipster, before I would appraise any trade, I pulled a CARFAX, and I would always re-pull the CARFAX if I kept the trade and I had a customer for that particular car. Any dealer who doesn't include a CARFAX with every used car sale doesn't want to sell used cars above board. Much like their TV commercials infer! Yes, CARFAX pulls cost the dealership money, but we had a contract with them and could pull unlimited reports for a flat monthly fee. How much that cost the dealership I never knew - same was true for LEASETRAK which configured our leases based upon input we sent them re: residuals, money factors, terms, etc. All done online.

I know I closed more used car deals because of the CARFAX reports - it provides info to the buyer that is not readily available from any other source. So if a dealer said I don't pull CARFAX reports because of the prohibitive cost, don't believe them.

As for getting a used car in its prime, most cars between 2 and 4 years old with 20K to 40k miles on the odometer are what I call prime, assuming clean CARFAX reports and no repaired damage, which I am able to identify on my inspection of the paint, orange peeling, paint finish depth, and smoothness of edges and corners with no paint bubbles or rough spots upon touch.

Just a bit of info from the other corner of the market.

stickguy

a couple weeks back there was a nice looking silver Fusion for sale near me. Looked like a recent one (the facelifted one). Parked on a front lawn for a few weeks, but gone recently. never did stop to check it out (was on a busy road, so not easy to stop).

But, they are out there. Sometimes.

driver100

. Hopefully it will be as interesting of a story as the one you told about the S.O.B that stole your pen

Are you going to try to steal the salesman's pen so you can tell us about it?

abacomike

Try to steal the salesman's pen?

Difficult to accomplish since salespeople aren't as stupid as your's truly to hand a Mont Blanc to a customer and then leave the desk without getting it back. Have I learned my lesson regarding trusting people? YOU CAN COUNT ON IT
! That experience still makes me cringe. Every time I think about it or wake up at night in a cold sweat after dreaming about another way I murdered that SOB in as painful a manner to him as I can conger up in my madness, I realize this guy didn't die at my hands and is still signing his checks with that pen.

No, I still haven't gotten over this guy's audacity, and his "flaunting" of the theft!

driver100

My 2007 Ford Fusion for sale, moving to Afghanistan to fight terrorism shortly, it grate shape, red is colour."

Like your example of a curbsider.

Rather than pay $10000 for a car with over 80,000 miles I would rather pay $18000 for a 2011 with 6000 miles. That's almost 6 years of extra driving pleasure for about $1400 a year.



This car is just an example. It is from Carmax in Clearwater, and it has a sunroof, cruise, etc.
No-haggle price$18,599*5-Day Money-Back Guarantee†....
Clean Title Guarantee†................
Certified Quality Inspection .........
Estimate monthly payments
Quick Glance
Miles6K
Drive2WD
TransmissionAutomatic
ExteriorRed
InteriorBlack Cloth
EPA Mileage22/30 MPG
Stock #8265721
Rating4.9

Although $10k is almost half the price, it could be a really risky investment and could cost a lot more than the $18k car over 6 to 10 years....especially since you keep your cars going for a long time.

driver100

hand a Mont Blanc to a customer and then leave the desk without getting it back.

I wouldn't know a Mont Blanc from a Bic pen, and I wouldn't have the nerve to keep either one. I might keep one if i had just bought a $50k car and it was a promotional pen with the dealers phone number.

I think that would be a nice touch actually, please sign here sir, and you may keep the pen too!

I like thick pens with the soft grips....but, good pens make me nervous, I just know I will lose it. :sick:

Kirstie_H

Pens with the logo & phone number are the ones they WANT you to take, regardless of what or if you buy. That's why they're printed in the first place! Cheap advertising.

tjc78

but, good pens make me nervous, I just know I will lose it.

I love pens, but I'm in the same boat. If I use them (especially at work) I will use them. So, now I use cheap stuff.

abacomike

hand a Mont Blanc to a customer and then leave the desk without getting it back

I normally would never have handed the guy my good pen (it was my lucky pen, too, always had it in my shirt pocket next to a cheap Bic or some other "...I wouldn't care if I lost it..." pen) but that day, and I remember it as if it were yesterday, I had loaned the "...I wouldn't care if I lost it..." pen to someone else and all I had was my lucky Mont Blanc. Since this guy had made his decision to buy at the agreed price, I needed his signature on the buyer's order to start the process. It was my own fault for not waiting until he read the buyer's order, signed it, and got my pen back, but I was called to the sales desk for some reason or other, and the rest is history!

OH, HOW I HATED THAT GUY. But in the end, he got the best of me, even though I got MSRP on his wife's new car. He stole my lucky pen. Since then, I can't win a small jackpot at the casino or even walk out even after playing blackjack. Yep, he got the better of me for sure!

driver100

Pens with the logo & phone number are the ones they WANT you to take

Exactly! That's why I let customers sign the agreement with a pen with our advertising on it, and then I say keep the pen....most people like that, they always like getting something for nothing, especially a pen which is useful, but I got our name and phone number sitting right there in their home or office. And I have only lost an 80 cent pen, after tax expenses a 40 cent pen.

Better than losing a $400 Mont Blanc.

jipster

Are you going to try to steal the salesman's pen so you can tell us about it?

Well, I thought about that. But, would anyone really be that upset if I took their Bic pen? Haven't run into too many salespeople carrying a Mont Blanc pen... none actually. Before yesterday I didn't even know what a Mont Blanc pen was.

imidazol97

> I'm dealing with liars all around,

At a car store? No. Tell me it's not true. I have always believed they were as honest and upstanding as a pastor or banker. :P

jipster

Rather than pay $10000 for a car with over 80,000 miles I would rather pay $18000 for a 2011 with 6000 miles. That's almost 6 years of extra driving pleasure for about $1400 a year

While looking at less expensive Ford Focus(es) at the beginning of my search, the difference between a 2008 Focus ($10-$11k) and a brand new Focus ($16k) was too close. The used Focus cars are overpriced I thought, and the ones that were priced right had too many miles, or were too worn. After driving a couple of them, decided the car was too underpowered, loud and unrefined. Big brother Fusion is a much nicer car.

We did buy new in 2004 when we bought the MPV for the wife. Used 3 year old Toyota Siennas were going for $18k. We bought the MPV with 12 miles for $20.4k. Made better (cents) to buy new. So definatly something to think about.

jipster

At a car store? No. Tell me it's not true

Ok, it's not totally true. Lately it has seemed that way though. The truth is about 40% of the salesmen I have dealt with, I felt had lied to me. Most of the time it had been to get me into the store, then pull the ole switch-er-ruh.

I've run into many that were nice and seemed honest. Remember the story about the sweaty hands saleman I told about a month ago. He was a pretty nice/honest guy. Probably been fired by now though.

stever

I had a Montblanc #146 for about 30 years, dating from my Memphis days that cost ~$100. It lost its set after a decade and I quit using it (you really shouldn't loan them out, assuming it's a fountain pen). Could have gotten a new nib or the original one fixed, but I wasn't using it much after I got my first PC. Sold it when we moved from Boise for $50. If it had been pristine, it would have been worth more, but I like buying stuff to use, not to admire in a case.

On another note, if you know any cop car owners, please send them to us:

A reporter would like to speak to a civilian driver of a Crown Vic, preferably a P71 (Police Interceptor). If you are not a police officer, and you own a Crown Vic, please send your daytime contact information to pr@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, May 10, 2012 at 10 a.m. Pacific/1 p.m. Eastern.

abacomike

Okay it's not totally true...

We all have to understand this analogy - finding an honest, and I mean HONEST salesperson and/or manager in a dealership is like finding that proverbial needle in a haystack!

This last experience I had at Lexus wasn't too terribly bad, just that they tried "selling" a car to a seasoned car salesman - like "...who are you kidding?" I had to ask them a couple of times to stop selling me a car. As for their honesty, better than average.

When I ran a store, if I caught a salesperson lying to a customer, I would tak over the sale and bring in another sales person. Remember, I quit my job over being forced to lie to a customer.

Honesty in the car sales business is like winning the powerball lottery, a true rarity to say the least. If the sales person is honest (a refreshing experience), chances of finding an honest manager working the deal behind the desk would be a true jackpot - it happens, but not very often. I know because I worked as a salesman for liars and then as a manager for a group of eventual liars.

tjc78

I personally think all the information on the Internet has made it more difficult for salesmen to lie to a customer.

The last time I had a salesman blatently lie to me was when shopping for an Elantra with my best friend and his mother. The salesman came out with $1500 off sticker. I said that is great but that is Hyundai's rebate, how much is your discount. He said "there is no rebate this is our discount" I said that is bull, showed him the printout from the website, dismissed him as our salesperson and worked directly with the manager. He was more than happy to "save" the sale selling the car at invoice minus the Hyundai rebate.

driver100

Focus-decided the car was too underpowered, loud and unrefined. Big brother Fusion is a much nicer car.

Hey Jip, maybe from a Focus to a Fusion to one of these.......
A reporter would like to speak to a civilian driver of a Crown Vic, preferably a P71 (Police Interceptor).

jipster

Hey Jip, maybe from a Focus to a Fusion to one of these.......
A reporter would like to speak to a civilian driver of a Crown Vic, preferably a P71 (Police Interceptor).

Definetly cool. I could be like Jake and Elwood...The Blues Brothers! Take that sucker into the local mall and watch purses fly. :P

fezo

I haven't ever had a Mont Blanc to have someone steal. I do like nicer pens over stick pens but it really only takes a Parker jotter to keep me happy. Used to get a ton of free ones which my kids managed to abscond with. Some day I'll probably find some around the house. Used to have a lot with ads on them. The folks that publish law books would give them away. Lincoln used to give them away.

Now I have two plain barreled jobs from Staples....

sterlingdog

Goodness gracious. I just can't keep up with all of the posts that I'm missing these days---insurance, Town Cars and Crown Vics, ink pens, etc. I'm still drowning in volunteer work, house negotiations, personnel manuals, etc.

i read a rather disturbing post indicating that Explorer may not return here. That makes me sad. He's such a nice guy and I always enjoyed his posts. Mistakes happen and I hope that he'll reconsider. We've all had some irritations at times, but have remained friends and car buddies. You and I bumped heads once, but we've always enjoyed each other too much for a difference of opinion to last very long. We've lost some wonderful folks here---Mack who passed away, Isellhondas (though I hear from him at times), Joel who sold Ford products, that nice young man who had a new baby---his tag name began with a "B" but I can't remember the rest, the nice guy from India whose tag name began with a "C", and several others. I do hope that Explorer will continue to post here.

I was delighted to see a post by Graphicguy and that old Jipster has returned for a spell. They are both old favorites here.

Speaking of ink pens, my niece did bring me a Ferrari fountain pen from Italy as a Christmas gift. It's encased in a fancy yellow holder inside a red velvet cloth which is in a red box. It came with a certificate of authenticity and the pen is numbered. I do use it for special cards and Thank You notes. I would never take it out of the house. I would lose it for sure. I know that it must have set my niece back a few hundred dollars. She has that kind of taste.

Richard

sterlingdog

Hello you old buzzard. It's about time that you put in an appearance. I had to laugh---YOU asking for tips from a car salesman. You old sly dog. Don't be a stranger.

Richard

jipster

YOU asking for tips from a car salesman.

Hey richard! Word must have gotten out around the Louisville area, no one wants to sell the ole jipster a car.

Must be that Edmunds t-shirt I usually wear... scatters all the salesmen the second I walk in the door. :P