Stories from the Sales Frontlines

dino001

No, I get it - actuaries, their complex mathematical formulas, all of that. In highly non-linear systems, answers can go apart a lot for close boundary or initial condistions. Even if it doesn't make sense (remember Wall Street crash), it still does at least until something happens showing those formulas are wrong, or have wrong assumptions.

Being engineer, I can tell you, how easy it is to rely on some piece of software telling you black is white.

dino001

Funny thing with PIP is, it was put in to eliminate/reduce fraud. Assumption was that if everybody is insured, they won't sue each other to death. In response, of course, we got cottage industry of doctors certifying injuries.

Insurance in Florida is a real nightmare. Too much regulation on one side (promtping Cos. to leave the market due to inability to impose actuarily sound rates), on the other all that fraud. It seems the fraud is not only professional crooks, but it looks the "good people" decided that scamming Cos. is no big deal, because nobody like insurers. When victim is unsympathetic, like a corporation, in eyes of many "good people", it is no longer a victim. "They got the money, they can pay" - isn't that what tort lawyers want us to believe? So if they can, insurance fraud becomes "victimless" crime. Then we all pay...

dino001

I think you're probably taking advantage of artificially lowered introductory rates, probably supported by marketing money. Just like first month apartment rent free, three months of free HBO, all what not. Which basically still comes to new business being more valuable than current business....

abacomike

which still comes to new business being more valuable than current business

You could be correct in your analysis of my ability to save a huge amount on auto insurance. It seems that Liberty Mutual has a relationship with Mercedes Benz - if you just bought a Mercedes, you call Mercedes and they transfer you to Liberty Mutual. Of course, I just grabbed the new insurance quote and ran with it. But, they have the same relationship with alums of NYU - 10% reduction, so maybe I will be lucky and I won't have a huge bump in my rates on December 1st. Also, I have another 10% for Defensive Driving Course. We'll see what happens in December. My rates dropped $15 a year with the Lexus vs. the Mercedes. Who knows, maybe I won't have to go into heavy shopping once again for auto insurance.

abacomike

funny thing, with PIP is it was put in to eliminate/reduce fraud

The amount of fraud associated with PIP is truly monumental. All to get into No-Fault Insurance, which the insurance industry pushed hard for. But, as you know, it had the reverse effect and now PIP for a $10,000 limit is actually higher in rate than collision or Comprehensive. If the legislature had done the right thing - eliminate required PIP, rates would have dropped by $170-$200 per year, per car, per policy.

Then, the legislature would say that there are many drivers who don't carry insurance, thus the reason to have PIP required. Well, IDIOTS IN TALLAHASSEE, with the added cost of PIP, there are even more uninsured motorists in the state of Florida. Don't they see that?

I carry $250,000-$500,000 limits on uninsured motorist coverage because there are so many drivers down here driving without insurance. I was rear-ended on I75 going south near Pembroke Pines/Weston Florida about 10 years ago. This guy hit me while I was stopped in the center lane due to an accident in front of me. He didn't even try to stop until he was 50 feet behind me - I saw this coming and it still gives me nightmares - and he hit me so hard (I had a 2001 Lexus GS300) that it bumped me 150 feet into a truck - demolished my rear and front ends. Was in the hospital for 2 months.

The guy that hit me had 15,000-30,000 liability, not even enough to replace the car not to mention the 300,000 in medical bills and loss of work, etc. Luckily, I was carrying $100,000 - $300,000 uninsured/underinsured motorist at the time. So even though PIP paid off, as did his insurance company, as did my health insurance company, the uninsured/underinsured insurance is considered seondary insurance and thus I was paid $100,000 from my insurance company which I did not have to turn over to my heatlh insurance company because it is not considered liability insurance or medical insurance, but replacement insurance for injuries I did not cause.

So, even though you need liability insurance and PIP insurance to get a registration for your vehicle, they carry minimal insurance, if any at all. Lots of people down here in South Florida have tags on their cars that are not registered to the vehicle they are driving or use fake temporary tags. The only way they get caught is if they are stopped by a cop - and then they just pay a small fine.

Like I said, get rid of PIP, save those of us who carry insurance some money, and stop the fraud associated with PIP.

Even thought the legislature just made major changes to the statute, they are already finding ways to get around it.

dino001

Liberty Mutual never liked me. I was part of their several "preferred" groups (Subaru, now BMW) - didn't matter, their quotes were from outer space, when compared with Travelers, Progressive, or Ameriprise.

dino001

I don't understand something - wouldn't your health insurance pick up any amount in excess of PIP? That is my understanding of health insurance - it covers both injuries and sickness after primary coverage is exceeded (here, PIP and other party liability insurance). Why would you even need UIM in that case, other than to make things a little faster (there can be delays in payments if your health insurer smells other parties may pay first, but that is generally between them and the hospital). Actually, at least my employer's health insurance positioned itself as a secondary, not primary, which means they will wait for UIM to pay before them paying - so why would I buy UIM in that case?

BTW UIM does not cover vehicle damage, only injuries. Collision will pay damage, if other parties damage liability is exceeded.

abacomike

I have a story I wanted to share with everyone - especially since this is Stories from the Sales Fronlines Forum.

When I was managing the dealership, I was on a T.O. (take over from salesperson by a manager to close a deal) with an older customer who was beating up the poor sales person (who was one of my best sales people) over the pricing of a new vehicle. I sat down, pulled out my Mont Blanc Ball Point Pen, which was given to me by the owner as a gift, and began writing down some numbers. I asked him where I needed to be for him to drive home in the car he selected. He told me, I wrote that figure down, gave him the pen, and asked him to sign it. He read the numbers and signed the buyer's order.

I went to my desk and began printing out the paperwork needed to get him into the Finance Department, and when I went for my pen, I noticed it was not in my shirt pocket. So, I know the customer had the pen, so I went to get my pen back. The customer said, "...I don't have your pen, you took it back from me!" Now, I knew I did not, but, I began looking on the floor, all over the desk where he was sitting, and I could not find that pen. Rather than upset this guy, and have him walk out on a what was a fairly good deal for the dealership and the sales associate, I borrowed a pen and continued the paperwork at my desk.

I tell the other desk managers that this customer literally stole my pen, and that he must have put it into his pocket. No chance to have it ever returned, so I just chalked this up to the kinds of customers I have to deal with.

I get back to where he is sitting, and I see him admiring a black Mont Blanc Pen. I said to him, "...oh, so you found it!" He says "...no, this is mine, I had it in my pocket whe I walked in."

Now, as he is signing some paperwork with that pen, I notice my initials on the clip - MLS, so I again say, "...hmm, my initials are on your pen's clip - see, MLS!" He responds, "no, I used to be in real estate and that means Mulitple LIsting Service - they gave me the pens as a gift."

No sense making a scene, and I sure didn't want to lose the sale for the sales associate, so I just grinned and beared it.

About a week later, this guy comes in to speak with the sales person and tells the sales person that he was able to get back at car sales managers by stealing my Mont Blanc pen. Sales person tells me this story, and of course I see stars. But, still, the sales survey had not yet been returned and I sure didn't want to spoil that for the sales person either.

About 6 months later, this guy comes back in looking for a car for his wife. I tell the sales person to see me before he even begins talking numbers - once he has selected a car from out new car lot.

He selects, with his wife, a brand new M35S (this was in 2006 whe they just came out) in black with saddle interior and loaded. MSRP was $52,400, give or take a hundred. I knew it was the only one in the south florida region as I had been asked by other dealers If I would dealer trade that car. So, I come over, sit down, and ask him whata he would like to do today. He said he wanted to buy the car. I said fine, that will be $52,400 plus tax, dealer fees, license, title, etc.

He is shocked and says he wants a discount. I tell him, "...you already have a discount, my $400.00 Mont Blanc Pen - consider this price as my final offer.

He storms out of the dealership - only to return later that evening with a check for the full amount of the car, MSRP +++.

The old saying, "...What comes around, goes around, what goes around, comes around!"

Never, ever had any more words with that SOB.

abacomike

health insurance and PIP

Yes, they did, but I was able to collect from my uninsured/underinsured part of my policy for every medical bill paid by PIP and the Health Insurance, and since my limit was 100,000 dollars per incident at the time, I received 100,000 dollars above and beyond the claim.

Remember, this is "secondary" insurance - not supplimental medical insurance, etc. It's a liability policy extra which pays out above and beyond any other payouts by your own health insurance or PIP. Since total bills were over $300,000, they paid out the limit.

My health insurance company can only reduce their payouts by PIP and any medical insurance I cover above and beyond their coverages, like major medical with another company. They paid out the total amount (health insurance) knowing full well I had uninsured/underinsured motorist insurance. They cannot recover that money because of the manner in which it is set up - 2nd or 3rd party insurance, not primary.

dino001

Well, that's all good, but I consider insurance as something to cover a loss, not to increase my account by. So I say pass for UIM - well, not exactly - I actually bought one with smaller limit, to have some "pocket" money in case I need something faster, or have nuisance expenses.

BTW, my employer changed their payout scheme for their medical insurance a few years ago - not sure if UIM would go first or not, but they basically make themselves (almost) last to pay in case of injuries. But this may be only for insurance specifically designated as "medical", not accident. I would have to really dig through the papers or ask HR to know for sure.

abacomike

uninsured/underinsured or not

In the case of this accident, the guy didn't have enough insurance for me to sue him. My insurance company took him to court, but when he declared bankruptcy, they had no recourse. Since he did not have enough for me to sue him, it's kind of like my own insurance company coming up with money due to the fact that this guy had little, if any insurance.

That is the purpose of this type of insurance - you get hit and injured - you have no legal recourse - you end up presenting medical and hospital bills to your insurance company that were paid by the health insurance carrier - they give you whatever was paid for medical in lieu of not having recourse for a legal suit. The insurance company then goes after the guy for this insurance, and you don't have to.

It is quite possible that insurance coverages have changed - that you can't collect from both - but check it out and see if I am right, ok?

dino001

But it still goes into heart of what insurance is for. I consider it as a replacement/compensation for a loss. So if my injuries are already covered by PIP, liability of other party (if applicable) and my medical, I see no reason of getting large UIM, regardless whether paid on top, or instead of my current coverage. Bottom line, the goal is for life to continue as nothing happened, rather than I just won a lottery ticket and somebody added 100 grand to my account. Admittedly, there are costs beyond medical costs (loss of income opportunity, additional transportation expenses, even dmininshment of lifestyle etc.) that UIM could compensate, so it is not completely outrageous to have it as a supplement for what is paid by others. Hence, my UIM limits are 25/50 to cover just that. I see that as more as a matter of personal preference and priority - pay now (premium coverage), or take chances and pay later, if something happens. I like to buy as little insurance as needed to get me going with understanding that I may take a hit, something happens. Catastrophic coverage is important, so I don't have to sell off my assets, but I no longer take nuicance coverage. The more money I have, the higher threshold becomes, i.e. the more I can "self-insure", not less.

abacomike

Compensation for a loss

OK! Who reimburses me for my $1000 deductible on my collision after he rear ended me? Who pays me the $40,000 in salary I lost after being out of work for 4 months (2 months in hospital and 2 months in rehab)? Who pays me for all the pain and suffering I experienced, and still suffer to this day? Who pays me the difference between the 35,000 they gave me for an almost new car and the replacement cost of another new 2001 GS300 that cost me 45,000 dollars? His insurance had 10,000 in liability coverage, that was it. Thank goodness for my underinsured coverage. Without that, I would had to claim bankruptcy!

Do you understand now?

snakeweasel

Marginal Costs. As a review, once marginal costs are achieved (costs of doing business such as overhead, salaries, mortgage payments, cost of products, and other costs, taxes, etc.) anything above that is profit.

I think you are talking about fixed and variable costs. Fixed costs would be overhead, non-commision salaries, mortgage payments and any other costs that don't change with volume of sales. Variable costs are costs that change with the volume of sales such as sales commissions, cost of goods sold and costs to get goods ready for sale as examples.

Marginal costs are the costs associated with producing or selling each additional unit. Say a dealership sells 100 cars with total costs of $2,000,000, its total cost per unit is an average of $20,000. Now say it sells the 101st car and the total costs are now $2,017,000, the marginal costs for the 101st car is $17,000.

dino001

I understand - that is exactly what I just wrote. Matter of priorities. Using your example $1000 is so little in the scheme, I don't even think about it. $40K salary loss is serious - however, my employer insures 75% of my salary for 90 days and 40% beyond that - I also bought additional 20%, so it is 60% total (in fact a little more as the 20% buy-up is actually tax-free). I have also saved up a few days of sick leave, which I can supplement the disability payout. So, using your numbers, my real loss is ($40k-$40k/120days*(90days *0.75+30 days*0.6)=$11K less whatever I will use as an additional sick leave pay beyond first 7 days. Call it $10K. New car is covered by my collision (it is paid regardless of fault). By sitting at home, I have lower expenses on some items (e.g. less gas), but probably more on others (energy), so let's call it a wash.

I'm not going to price pain and suffering, as it is non-economic and perhaps I'm more "cold fish" type. I acknowledge it is a real loss, but I also despise big pain and suffering judgements, in general _ I believe they are nowhere near as much as trial lawyers would like us to believe. I apply the same approach to my pain, as to others. BTW, if the pain prevents me from doing my job (pain medication making me hazy), that's economic loss, which can be calculated. I'm talking about true non-economic (lifestyle quality) loss, that cannot be easily priced. But that's a personal issue, where reasonable people can disagree.

So using your numbers, my economic loss is nowhere near bancruptcy. It may sting, as nobody likes to lose money, or spend it on things that were not their choice (e.g. having to use vacation or sick days for things that are somebody else's fault), but it would not going to put me in the poor house. Basically 25/50K UIM would get me where I need. The most difficult variable here is that the money may be needed tomorrow, or never be collected, which basically makes insurance a throw out.

fezo

How's this one without uninsured motorist?

I worked with a woman whose husband was a tender on a drawbridge. There was a little cutout in the road enough to park a couple of cars for the tenders to park in. So one day at the end of his shift his car won't start. He calls up his wife who picks him up and takes him home. Didn't get to the car that day so took hers into work the next day. Sure enough, that evening a 19 year old uninsured drunk driver goes speeding over the bridge, loses control and hits both cars, totaling them both. The kid dies in the accident. Of course he has no tangible assets.

They didn't have uninsured motorist and were screwed. Had it happened to two of my cars I'd have been paid what the cars were worth. I would never consider dropping or lowering uninsured motorist. A bargain in my book.

dino001

Insurance is very personal thing, often treated very emotionally. It involves fear, loss, items that are sometimes difficult to get a clear picture about, because it is a balance between loss and probability. However, the insurance companies are very calculated (they have to be) and learned to play our emotions - in their presentations they like to mix big loss/small probability events with small loss/large probability events and suggest both are the same. They are clearly not, but our emotions will often overwhelm that. They "what if" questions will always linger and fuel the compulsion. When I evaluate my insurance needs, I like to put myself into insurer's shoes, as well as mine. That helps a little. I will still often end up buying more than my left brain tells me I should, but I try to keep that in check.

dino001

Uninsured motorist would not cover their cars. It covers injuries, not damages. The cars should be paid by collision/comprehensive - it pays damages regardless of fault.

mako1a

a woman whose husband was a tender on a drawbridge

I had a 23 foot Formula with fighting chair, bow pulpit, etc. As I was leaving for open sea, the bridge tender waved so I waved back.

On the way back in I hear this awful racket and look back to see the bridge tender shaking his fist at me.

Turns out that I was up on plane coming in and my outriggers hit the bridge just enough to make a lot of noise. I thought it was funny.

OK, back to arguing about insurance prices.

explorerx4

I guess you misinterpreted my post because that's not close to what I posted or intended to.

abacomike

not close go what I intended...

Perhaps you are right! I reread hour post about the service experience and the fact that these guys had been in the dealership for some time. Further, you intended to give them a good survey even though they did not do the kind of job you expect - is that right?

The intention or rationale for the post - from what I gathered, had to do with the fact you give good surveys because that is what they asked you to do.

My point is that if you gave them a bad survey, they probably would have figured out who sent it in - so I was, in a way, agreeing with you that it does not pay to be honest on surveys!

oldfarmer50

"...Try buying a 2013 Mustang. If you get $500 below MSRP you're an ace negotiator..."

I find that kind of funny since sales of Mustangs have been dropping the past few years. So much so that they are doing a major redesign for 2014. I would think the upcoming change alone would depress prices. Why do you think that is?

oldfarmer50

"...will upshift in manual mode once the revs get too high..."

My Eclipse in manual mode will stay in gear until it bounces off the rev limiter. I think that is the safety feature. I've read that some brands over-ride the manual mode and shift on their own.

I personally like a car that doesn't second guess you. The Eclipse even gives you 200 rpm over red line before going nanny on you.

My old 69' Plymouth had it's own system where if you rev'ed it too high the valves would start floating and shut you down in a similar manner. :lemon:

abacomike

revs too high....

This post goes back to a post made questioning why tach are put in cars with auto transmissions. I agreed with the exception of those with shift paddles. With shift paddles, let' assume you are in 1st gear. If you are any kind of an experienced driver who has drven a stick, you use the tach to give info on rpms so you shift at an appropriate rpm level. I use the tach in my car (auto trams) only when up shifting because when downshifting, the computer will not allow you to over rev.

Most new cars have tachs, but they are a waste unless there is a manual mode. Don't all NASCAR race cars now use auto transmissions with paddle shifters? I believe this is now standard for formula one race cars.

I don't look at my tach unless I am up shifting with paddles - and I find it useful to have, to say the least!

driver100

You responded directly to my post making it look like you were replying to something I wrote

I wondered about that at the time too, but I think sometimes Mike, who writes alot, and is informative and entertaining, takes on too much and uses the wrong reply post....I am certain that it has happened to me.

I always try to make allowances for why people do what they do. I think in Mikes case you have to allow for the fact when you write that many posts, you could get slightly mixed up in your replies, and also, take into account Mike is pretty new here.

No need to get personal, we all try to do the best we can. Explorer has lots of insight and good comments on many subjects, and Mike has been a great addition, very informative and he has kept things rolling here.

Where is Richard to fix things up - when we need him?

driver100

I'll just say 'goodbye' to everyone now,

I would hope that doesn't happen...that was a pretty minor mistake.

I could be wrong because I am relying on memory but I think the point you were making was the check up on your car was almost useless, but you gave the service guys a good report any way....so the survey is of no value. Which is a very good illustration of why surveys are fairly useless.

mako1a

explorerx4, you're not going anywhere. This site provides a wealth of information on a variety of subjects and you're part of it, like it or not.

My advice, posts get confusing so don't take things personally.
If you want to give all 10s, fine. If you want to give all 1s, fine.

Kirstie_H

Good grief, no one's getting banned here. We don't just ban people willy-nilly - you have to put some effort toward it.

You said it best in your previous post, so I don't have anything to add. Thing get posted. Things get misunderstood. It's best to just drop it in that case and move on.

tjc78

What I try to do is quote what I am specifically replying to. This isn't really a threaded board, and most posts just run into one another. We typically just keep replying to the last or reply and address several posters in one longer post. (like I'm about to do)

Kirstie,
We made a variation (with what we had on hand) of your cheese stuffed burgers and they were awesome. We will most definately be doing in again. Thanks!

Mako,
IMHO if you are going to give all "1's" that is obviously your call but I would simply not complete the survey at all and talk to the manager about what is so upsetting.

Kirstie_H

Excellent! Sadly, we are nearly a week away from grilling again. We pulled the spindles (cheap wooden ones) off the deck, and are replacing them with nicer black metal ones. My SO is on a biz trip to San Francisco this week, so given that I am anti-handy, it won't get done til the weekend.

stickguy

I mostly go with random obscure posts that make little sense to anyone. Much easier that way. Just assume if I responded to you it was directed to you. Unless I just happened to pick the last item in the thread just to keep the title!

I too sent the recipe to my wife. She thought it was odd I did so, and wanted to know where it came from.

mako1a

Mako,
IMHO if you are going to give all "1's" that is obviously your call

That "all 1s" post was to explorerx4. However, If I could give minus 10s to the local Ford dealer that wanted to do nothing more than waste my time with a nit picky review of my 22 year old trade-in...I would. I did give him an appropriate write up in "dealer reviews". If only I could do more.

driver100

I am anti-handy

Is that a new way of saying DIY challenged? Join the club, along with a few others around here.

driver100

There is a Lincoln MKT that goes by my street every few days and in my opinion, I don't think it is an attractive looking car. Of course, cars are very subjective, so I am sure some people think these Lincolns are beautiful....probably the guy who bought the one down the street for one.

I read a review about the MKT (is that short for "market") and the reviewer said this car had every possible luxury option known to man, and it rides and handles pretty well. He went on to say, that he didn't like the exterior of the car, especially that cattle pusher grill on the front, but that the MKT had "inner beauty"! Kind of like the girls my mother wanted to fix me up with.

This picture makes it look better than they do in real life;


(had to use 2011 model, but 2012 is almost the same, only uglier)


Interesting what Edmunds said about the 2011 model:

Pros
Powerful and fuel-efficient turbocharged V6 option, nicely balanced ride and handling, quiet interior, long list of standard features and high-tech options.

Cons
Near-useless third-row headroom, high price for twin-turbo EcoBoost V6 model, questionable exterior styling.

kyfdx

My wife didn't use your recipe (which I emailed her), but some Rachael Ray recipe that used brie in the middle... :surprise:

Anyway, it all melted and ran out on the grill...

Told her to just do what I say, the next time..

(okay... didn't do that)

Kirstie_H

Brie barely qualifies as cheese.

fezo

Someone has to come to NYC and make me one of those burgers....

I hit day 40 post transplant so I am almost halfway through my sentence...

The food could drive me nuts (I'm on a low microbial diet - all meat is well done which is NOT my preference). Lot of little frozen microwave dinners. One day at a time. I'll be on that diet for almost a year but at least at home I have some control over things.

On posts... way bigger things to worry about than if I sent the reply with the wrong person's name on it. I think we all figure things out.

On not being a DIYer - heck, I almost send Richard my computer problems.....

abacomike

Apple replaced my 3GS for the new 4S today. Was having lots of problems with the 3GS. When I got the new phone home I started dictating and I couldn't believe the ability of Siri to take dictation and answer all my questions. It's like having a private secretary with you everywhere you go. I ask it questions like what's the weather like in Fort Lauderdale or will it rain in Palm Beach and it answers you with correct English and grammatical syntax.

I think I died and went to heaven. When I figure out how it will tead me a bedtime story I'll let you guys know.

There's nothing left in this life for me to do. I even dictated this posting and she got everything exactly like I dictated. Sure wish this were around back when I was principaling in schools - I had a secretary who took dictation at 8:00 AM, and by 4:00 PM, I had approved the 8th draft as "good to go!".

graphicguy

fezo. Came in here to check on you. 1/2 way there. That's great to hear.

I stop by and find people who are begging to be banned. I better get back to the Chronic Car Buyers thread.

Fezo....again....glad to see you're posting and moving along.

tjc78

Driver,
The MKT is based on the Ford Flex. It's huge inside and the one I sat in was really loaded up. I read somewhere that Lincoln thought it could fill the spot in the livery business where the discontinued Town Car has owned the market for years. I've even seen a hearse conversion.

fezo

Speaking of Town Cars I wonder what the car service I use to get over to the hospital and back for appointments will do when their Town Cars wear out. They must own a gazillion of them - all black. Once in a while they'll send an SUV. An Expedition once and a Pilot today.

fezo

You work fast. You're already way ahead of me on the Siri thing. I better get working....

driver100

. I've even seen a hearse conversion.

Ah, that makes sense...it would make a perfect hearse. It looks like something a dead person could ride around in. :sick:

driver100

of Town Cars I wonder what the car service I use to get over to the hospital and back for appointments will do when their Town Cars wear out.

Maybe you should get your name on a list in case they want to leave them to someone?

Actually, I think they just keep them going until they just won't go any more. Probably worth a fair bit as scrap metal.

driver100

I couldn't believe the ability of Siri

I give you a lot of credit for embracing technology. I still have a pay as you go flip open phone. Between your car and your phone you are becoming a regular geek.

abacomike

I give you a lot credit for embracing technology

I think the credit you are bestowing on me might be misplaced - but much appreciated. I could have bought the new 4S back in December when I opened this new account with AT&T, but felt that the 3GS was already over my head in terms of technology. It's APPLE that deserves the credit for replacing the old phone with this one. Otherwise, I would never have been introduced to Siri. This tiny phone has a more sophisticated voice recognition system than the new Lexus. Good thing Siri isn't in my car or I'd be in an accident every day by paying more attention to her sweet, adorable and gleeful voice than the road and traffic I am in. The Lexus's voice is much more stoic, thank goodness. No where near as sexy as Siri!

fezo

Maybe you should get your name on a list in case they want to leave them to someone?

Nah. I'm kind of tied to your future Passat at this point......

The Town Car is good for what they use it for - getting around the city in the back seat. The Expedition had all sorts of rattles. The Pilot was quiet. It all gets you there.

driver100

It's APPLE that deserves the credit for replacing the old phone with this one.

I just have my ancient flip phone that just calls people and will take a picture if I remember how to do it. I should favor Blackberry, that once great Canadian company. However, Apple is amazing.

A nephew had an Apple phone that was out of warranty and wasn't working. He took it to the Apple store and he said he was from out of town, so he couldn't wait for it to be fixed. They just gave him a new phone. What great customer service....you have to be impresssed when a company treats you that way.

driver100

Nah. I'm kind of tied to your future Passat at this point......

I thought you didn't like white?

tjc78

Speaking of Town Cars I wonder what the car service I use to get over to the hospital and back for appointments will do when their Town Cars wear out

I'm sure the livery business (especially in NY) is quite upset about the demise of the Panther (Town Car, Crown Vic, Grand Marq) there has never been a more durable sedan for taxi/limo use. They are tough as nails and I have been in several that the odometers read in excess of 400K.

My best guess is they will keep them in service for as long as they can and move onto something else. I just don't see any of the new FWD unibody sedans taking the abuse a Panther can take.