Stories from the Sales Frontlines

driver100

I had shingles when I woke up after Son #1s wedding

That reminds me...they think stress is one cause of shingles...low immunity system at the time could be a factor. I think Mike should sue the Lexus dealer for stress caused by his cars vibrations.

to this day I still get a twinge of it every so often.

You should get the vaccination!

driver100

A dealer is not required by any entity to charge such a fee to all or any buyer.

Interesting comments and they make sense. How did you come by this knowledge? Were you in the car biz or are you a lawyer, or just one of us?

abacomike

A dealer document fee is not a required fee

Too many dealer types seem to use the Edmunds' discussion site to attempt to confuse buyers into accepting these fees as legitimate

First of all, no one said the fee is "required". What was said is that IF THERE IS A FEE CHARGED BY THE DEALER, that fee must be charged to everyone and shown ON THE BUYER'S ORDER. The bottom line is what you pay for the car. If you look back on all the posts, you will find a paragraph that states "...you can negotiate that amount with the dealer who can, if he so chooses, reduce the bottom line by part or all of that amount!

I have no idea what you mean by "dealer types", but if you are referring to me or other people who post on this site, you are off base. As for me, I hate dealer fees, but down here in Florida, it is a common practice with few exceptions. But there are exceptions. All that the state of Florida requires is that if you charge a service fee, it must be equally charged to all who purchase a vehicle from that dealership. That fee, by Florida statute, requires that the dealer show the fee on the buyer's order for all vehicles sold.

The fee, itself, is not required by Florida Law. All that Florida Law states is that IF YOU CHARGE A SERVICE FEE, IT MUST BE FAIRLY CHARGED TO ALL CLIENTS.

abacomike

were you in teh car biz or are you a lawyer, or just one of us

I was in the car biz, and I am not a lawyer. Please read my prior post.

abacomike

I think Mike should sue the Lexus dealer for stress caused by his cars vibrations

I only wish! But, you are correct in your statement that "stress" has something to do with it. My doctor asked me if I was under any undue stress lately. I responded that I had been. He explained that stress, in and of itself, does not bring on shingles, but that it is a contributing factor.

As for taking the vaccine, the doctor told me that I had to wait 1 year from the time of the outbreak of shingles prior to taking the vaccine. That's one year without a recurring outbreak. I asked him why I had to wait that long, and he responded that in order for the vaccine to be effective, the one year wait is recommended.

imidazol97

>It's very painful, and the welt itches like mad and burns at the same time.

May I say you're lucky that it's not on your face. My doctor (actually the Nurse Practicioner) was emphatic that I get the vaccination for shingles. She described the problems with the facial invasion getting to the optic nerve. She also described the after discomfort that doesn't go away for months. And she described the sight damage if it gets to the eye. She had seen two cases of that in the last year and half.

Get the vaccination if your doctor thinks you're eligible.

imidazol97

>It's about what was during 50s, 60s

Why are legislatures spending time passing engineering laws about things from the 50s and 60s?

imidazol97

>Not following you at all now.

Social engineering laws. Why are legislatures passing laws, benefitting the dealerships by allowing them to charge more to most people, that are meant to socially engineer against a supposed bias toward a minority. If a person is charged more or less than another, there are more than enough laws on the books now to allow them to recoup any damages. Instead we have legislatures putting in a benefit for dealerships which go against the majority of buyers.

dino001

The same reason they pass many other laws. Something bad (or terrible) happens, press, TV shows how terrible it is and whips the public into frenzy, somebody makes it a platform and when one opposes it, or simply say let's look at more consequences than just immediate intent, they're branded a friend of the villain. Then it passes, unintended consequences happen, but nobody has the will to deal with them, because there is much more attractive emergency happing right now, allowing to pass another law.

snakeweasel

Such a fee is pure profit to the dealer.

No it isn't, there is a cost to the dealer to provide the services to document the vehicle. It is a minor cost but it still exists. That being said it is way less than what dealers will charge. anywhere between $10-$40 per ca depending on the dealership and how busy they are.

imidazol97

I totally agree.

abacomike

The same reason they pass many other laws. Something bad (or terrible) happens, press, TV shows how terrible it is and whips the public into frenzy

That's exactly what happened here in Florida with PIP and no fault insurance. The state legislature, in one of it's "divine wisdom periods several years ago" passed a statute that required all drivers in the State of Florida to have a PERSONAL INJURY PROTECTION policy of at least $10,000. It pays out to the medical provider (hospital, doctors, etc.) for up to $10,000 without having to prove "fault!" In other words, if I am hit by another car, sustain injuries requiring hospitalization, doctors, etc., MY INSURANCE pays the bills, without reqard to who was at fault - vis-a-vis NO FAULT INSURANCE!

Well, because of this requirement, fraudulant claims to insurance companies have skyrocketed in the past 2 to 3 years, to a point where auto insurance companies have had to raise rates by as much as 200% for the PIP coverage in the state. It used to cost $40 to $50 per year for this coverage ($10,000) and now it costs double, triple and even quadruple that, depending upon the policy and the insurance company.

So a few months ago, the governor asked the legislature to tighten up parts of the statute - which they did, but not enough! The cost of PIP insurance is still outrageous, is still a requirement, etc. And rates have not come down. That is because those who try to defraud the insurance companies find other ways to do it because of the "NO FAULT" provision.

I have written my state senator and representative and the governor asking them to ELIMINATE the PIP requirement. That would eliminate all the fraud. The numbers of drivers who drive vehicles down here WITHOUT ANY INSURANCE is staggering. Thus, the reason to carry uninsured/underinsured motorist insurance. It was the insurance companies, in the beginning, who wanted the NO FAULT and PIP, and now they are complaining about fraud.

WHAT GOES AROUND, ALWAYS SEEMS TO COME AROUND!

abacomike

I hope you start to feel better soon

Thanks, jmonroe*, I appreciate your empathy. Right now, the welt, which was red on the left side of my abdomen has reduce in size by 50%, but itches like crazy, and when my undershirt moves across the welt, it burns. The Rx the doctor gave me for the anti-viral drug seems to be working. But the itchiness across my abdomen and back is driving me crazy. I also have experienced pain from my lower back (lumbar region) across and down my left leg. Another symptom of the onset of shingles. It attacks nerve endings, according to my research on google.

He also gave me an Rx for neuronton, which is a pain reducer for nerve endings. It hasn't helped as much as I had hoped, but it's only been 48 hours since the onset of the welt, so it will take some time.

Very frustrating and irritating.

imidazol97

>It was the insurance companies, in the beginning, who wanted the NO FAULT and PIP, and now they are complaining about fraud.

Gee! Imagine the insurance companies wanting something passed to make more money for them. Sounds like ObamaCare. Just wait for the fraud there as it kicks in. Medicare Advantage already is gone--being extended by misuse of a fund with billions in it meant for experimenting on Medicare plans--until after the election. Hoping us seniors don't find out and vote against ObamaCare.

imidazol97

Has anyone here had IOL replacements? For cataracts or for vision correction?

To keep this sort of car-like, I went by the Cataract Dealer (a pun on Cadillac dealer?) and he said I'm ready. Has anyone had this done?

kyfdx

Is that Intra Ocular Lens replacement?

Sounds scary.....

imidazol97

Intra Ocula Lens

Yes. One of the most commonly performed surgeries or something to that effect, the opthmalogist/surgeron was saying!

roadburner

Has anyone had this done?

I have. Both eyes- before I turned 40. No complaints.

jmonroe

That reminds me...they think stress is one cause of shingles...low immunity system at the time could be a factor.

I’ve also heard that stress could be a factor in getting shingles. That’s easy to say but how do you prove it. When my son was married I was not under any stress. I wasn’t paying the tab. I paid for the rehearsal dinner and for the booze but that was nothing compared to what his mother in law paid.

You should get the vaccination!

I was going to get a shingles shot and I forgot to mention it when I had a routine exam last week. I planned on killing two birds with one stone but didn’t. Mrs. j called my cell phone to remind me but I left it in the car when I got to the doctors office. I’m planning on getting one within a week or two. Mrs. j got hers about a month ago when she had a routine exam.

jmonroe

dougb10

Driver...you were mentioning about bugs and removing them from the car.

I had the 3M Clear Mask installed on our last two Subaru Outback's.

The 2005 which was traded in on the 2011 had ZERO stone chips and the car looked like new. Bugs were very easy to remove with water and a bug mesh/sponge you can buy at any auto store.

The clear mask from 3M is custom made for your car and put on by a tech who does this with a heat gun. I will never get a new car again without this...I had a 2003 Camry which did not have it installed and the front of the car was a mess from all the stone chips.

Doug

houdini1

The dealer has a lot of costs and overhead, so why break out any one cost? All other costs are apparently included in what they charge for the car. Maybe soon we will see a TP charge for providing tp in their restrooms.

houdini1

Yes, about a year ago. The vision in my left eye had gotten so bad I could hardly see anything. Cataract.

After all the measurements and tests were done, the actual procedure took about 10 minutes on an outpatient basis. No pain at all during surgery followed by 24 hours of very minor discomfort and then good to go. 20/20 in each eye now. Fantastic.

driver100

I was going to get a shingles shot and I forgot to mention it when I had a routine exam last week.

The stress may have been from something other than the wedding, like worrying if your car was waxed and polished enough to carry people to the wedding.

I was going to get a shingles shot and I forgot to mention it when I had a routine exam

It's not quite that easy. You have to get the ingredients from a drug store, make it up and administer the vaccine within 30 minutes. You have to prearrange this with a doctor, or go to a doctor who specializes in giving the shot. You pretty well need an appointment because you can''t have the vaccine premade....like a Martini or something!

driver100

I had the 3M Clear Mask installed

Excellent information doug. Do you remember about how much it costs approx?

If bugs wash off easily, and it protects from stone chips, it sounds very worthwhile.

I am glad you wrote that, I forgot I put that in the original post. If it saves me waxing and rubbing off bugs I'd prefer to dao that.

driver100

. Maybe soon we will see a TP charge for providing tp in their restrooms.

Well, then some dealers will use the good stuff (the one with the cute bears) and others will use the no-name brand (I think it is called, sandpaper #3 grade), so then prices will vary and you may not want to buy from the cheapest dealer.............depending on how much servicing your car will need.

dougb10

I recall that the "ask" price for the 3M mask was about $300. The dealer did not install it...they brought in someone from another company who specializes in this.

I watched him as he was finishing up just before the car was delivered...he sat on a small chair in front of the car with his "blow dryer", shaping and fitting it to the car.

In both cases for our two Subaru's, the mask price was part of the negotiation to determine the final price.

I would want one on any new car sooner rather than later...it doesn't make much sense to install it over top of stone chips.

We have driven our 2011 Outback for almost two years now, pulling a trailer over some pretty crappy roads, and there isn't a mark on the front of the Subie.

Doug

P.S. We store our trailer in the north end of your town and go through it regularly. We both agree that it must be a lovely place to live.

imidazol97

>20/20 in each eye now. Fantastic.

Great. Glad to know you had a good result.

oldfarmer50

"...I can't go to the funeral..."

Have you considered using Skype? Have someone carry the laptop around so you can "talk" to everyone.

oldfarmer50

When I mentioned the Florida $799 doc fee. You guys do know there is a topic about doc fees somewhere here on Edmunds?

I seem to remember on that board some salesman stating that doc fees are just a way to screw the salesman out of some of his commission. It seems that the sales commission is based on the difference between dealer cost and selling price minus "pack". Pack is the little extra charges and fees added to the dealer's cost (like doc fees). So, a car that cost the dealer $20,000 and sold for $22,000 would pay commission on $2,000 minus the $799 doc fee and other dealer profit enhancers. A sale man might only get commission on half the total profit.

I may be remembering the details incorrectly but I think that is the gist of it.">link title

houdini1

You left out one step. When the poor salesman only scores a 9 out of ten on the survey, they cut his net commission in half !!

snakeweasel

The dealer has a lot of costs and overhead, so why break out any one cost?

In any business every cost is broken out so that they may be tracked and controlled. Do you realize that McDonalds knows how much they spend on pickles for each Big Mac?

houdini1

Of course they do...but they don't charge extra for pickles, it's included, the way it should be.

I think the doc fee evolved like this. All along they were including it in their cost, then they broke it out and charged it again...so everyone is actually paying double....or 4 or 5 times their actual cost.

abacomike

Doc fees are just a way to screw the salesman

"PACK" refers to an amount the dealership subtracts from the gross profit on the sale/lease of a new car or sale of a used car to recoup the costs involved in the sale/lease of a vehicle. Those costs include interest the dealer pays for his floor plan (new car inventory), new car preparation for sale, used car prep (inspection to determine what needs to be repaired or replaced on that car), and other costs involved in doing business which might include rent/lease of equipment, etc. that amount was around $400 per car when I was in the business. It is not a means of screwing the sales personnel out of commissions, but when I sold cars, I thought so - because that amount is subtracted from the commissionable gross profit. It is just a eat for the owner of the dealership to recoup costs of doing business - and I believe an unfair means of reducing commissions. Costs such as these should be part of the selling price! Additionally, the DEALER FEES added to the price of the vehicle may or may not be used to calculate commissions. In the dealerships I worked for, one dealer paid commissions on that added fee while another did not.

I believe the salesman should be paid commission on the dealer fees because that was added profit for the most part. Why should a salesperson SUBSIDIZE the dealer's profit by not making commission on that additional profit.

This is just part of the reasons why I stopped working for ato dealerships - lying and improper treatment of sales personnel!

driver100

I recall that the "ask" price for the 3M mask was about $300. The dealer did not install it.

You have a good memory...remembering where we live.

I believe there is an aftermarket place that will put the plastic on the front end for a lot less than the dealer. My friend with the Maserati gets parts and things there that the dealers sell for a lot more......the same or equivalent floor mats etc.

Thanks again, with all the driving to Florida and back I think that could be the way to go. It probably adds to the value of the car at trade in time too, whether the plastic stays on or if you take it off.

Yes, we have a unique little town. We live near the escarpment overlooking the bay and the bridge.

Thanks again, I really like that idea. Especially since those insects can do real damage I understand if they aren't removed right away.

driver100

were you in teh car biz or are you a lawyer, or just one of us
I was in the car biz, and I am not a lawyer. Please read my prior post.

Mike, I love reading your posts but something went wrong on post 79816.

I was asking Billy, who we will probably never hear from again, if he was in the car biz or was a lawyer, because he was so sure of himself about the dealer fees issue.

I know you own a Lexus, were in school administration, worked for a dealership as manager, so I don't know how you replied to my question for billy.

I am just checking with you so things will go more smoothly in the future...I think that is what happened with explorer when you said you didn't answer his post.

Just a small matter, but it could cause confusion, so it might be best to figure out how it happened.

btw....if you are laid up what is going to happen with the dealer/manufacturer testing of your car?

abacomike

Answered the wrong post!

YOU ARE CORRECT! My apologies!

driver100

YOU ARE CORRECT!

No problem!

fezo

Man, you guys have been busy....

Mike - sorry to hear about the shingles. I had them years ago but was reasonably lucky. It showed up on the inside of my left elbow and certainly hurt but it also put me in bed for a week! Ugh. A woman at work got it where it got to the eye and she was out for months! You'll be better before long.

stickguy

Funny, but I had it 4 years ago, when I was dealing with other (vastly more significant) issues. Had some slightly itchy bumps on my very lower back, and got sent to the dermatologist, who said it was shingles. I think they put me on anti viral medicine for a week, and I had to delay one of my other treatments, but it didn't really bother me and went away pretty quickly. Under normal circumstances, I probably would have just ignored it.

abacomike

Mike, sorry to hear about the shingles

Fezo*, believe me when I say that it is nothing compared to the suffering and pain you and others on this forum have to go through. It's just another part of living. That's the KEY! We are living while so many suffer and do not live!

Stay well and be healthy!

abacomike

Funny, but I had it for years ago

Yes, that's what the doctor put me on, some antiviral medications. Right now, I have a terrible welt on the left side of my abdomen that is murder! Most of my other complaints are minor compared to this! I am still going to take the car back to Lexus tomorrow, and then get home and back into bed. It's something that we can all live with, so long as it doesn't affect our vision like it did some of the others mentioned in previous posts. If these are the only symptoms I end up with, then I'll be very happy!

sterlingdog

Mike, I'm so sorry to hear that you have Shingles. I had them a year ago this past Easter. I awoke one morning with a rash which ran across my abdomen. Because other family members had experienced this agony, I knew immediately what I had. I dressed and drove straight to my doctor's office. I had been taught that it is helpful if you act quickly in getting the proper medication. That advice helped tremendously. Though I still had pain and discomfort, it went away after about three weeks.

The unfortunate part is that it can repeat itself from time to time. Getting the shot as soon as is practical will be helpful to that end. Though there is no guarantee, it is still good insurance to have. Try not to wear any clothes that touch the area and get as much rest as possible. Don't rub your eyes or nose with your hands if you can help it. If a family member or a friend hasn't had chicken pox, it is best that they stay away until you recover. As for stress being a cause, it is possible but more likely leans toward the genetic side of things. My sister and BIL are doctors, so we have had these discussions before.

Hope you get well soon. My best---Richard

sterlingdog

Goodness gracious....so many discussions since I was here a couple of weeks ago. If you stay here long enough, the same topics come back to you---tires, doc fees, Shingles, etc. I do find the 3M Mask treatment interesting for a new car. I don't believe that we have ever discussed that one.

Speaking of tires, I would like some advice from you guys. It's about time for some new paws for the Cat. She's been running Goodyear Eagles since new---now holding at 39,500 miles. What brand or brands might be good? As some of you know, I'm a Michelin fan. Still, I'm open to other ideas.

The big move is June 15. Beginning June 12, we'll begin moving china, crystal, silver, paintings, etc. ourselves. We've packed 78 boxes at this point! The rest will be for the big guys. I thought of Jmonroe when we got the offer that we finally accepted. Our buyer is from PA. We visited for three hours last weekend when they came to town. They are a lovely couple, so we feel that we are leaving the house in very good hands.

We're looking forward to this new adventure---a new house and my returning to work part time. Also, it will be nice returning to where we lived for so many years. The college has been really nice to me. I'm designing my own schedule for each week and the times for my classes. Just knowing that they wanted me to come back gave me a new lease on life that I needed. I enjoyed the volunteer work here, but there was still a void that I felt. I actually enjoy working and have missed it.

Richard

abacomike

I'm so sorry to hear you have shingles

Thanks for your advice Richard. Also, thanks for your well wishes! Hopefully this won't get any worse than it is now. The toughest part to deal with is the constant itching all over my body and the burning pain.

You just have yo live with it!

driver100

volunteer work here, but there was still a void that I felt. I actually enjoy working and have missed it.

Nice to hear from you....we all knew you were busy with the house. Sounds like everything is falling into place nicely....even being able to use your education skills working....and on your terms.

Volunteer work is great, and I admire people who do it. I would probably do it, but it would be a last resort....guess I am too selfish. Nah, actually I think I just like to be doing something measurably productive. I also feel I do enough good work by keeping 15 people employed so they have a better quality of life.

Hope you find out something about tires. All I know is to buy carefully, they can make a huge difference in how much you enjoy the way your car handles. Speaking about that 3M plastic mask, after your long journey West, did you have any problems with bugs?

driver100

You just have yo live with it!

Good attitude Mike....best to accept it and just try to do the best you can.

I am still curious about what you will do about the dealer and the tests to try to get the vibration problem solved. Will you wait until you are all better, will you try to take your car in on a day when you feel up to it. In a way, it would be a good time for them to work on your car...when you don't need it too much.
Maybe they would drive over a loaner and take your car?

abacomike

Good attitude Mike

It's about 35 miles each way to the dealership. So I am planning on taking the car in at about 12 noon today, and they will give me a loaner for the week! This was all set up by Lexus in Torrance, California! My dealer didn't even contact me about the appointment. The rep from CA was the one who made all the arrangements at the dealer.

Too bad one has to contact the manufacturer to get something accomplished.

I'll just take it easy.

SYRIAN KILLINGS AS THE UN OBSERVES!

The killing of innocent women and children in Syria is truly outrageous and pathetic. And this is all happening while the UN watches and does nothing! I pray to God that we do not get involved in this one! But the UN and NATO need to do something! This is exactly what happened during Hitler's reign in Germany - GENOCIDE!

jmonroe

Speaking of tires, I would like some advice from you guys.

Get the ones that are round and black.

Beginning June 12, we'll begin moving china, crystal, silver, paintings, etc. ourselves. We've packed 78 boxes at this point!

Man, that’s a LOT of personal fragile items. What are you packing, a museum? I know you’ve inherited a few things over the years but still. :sick:

---a new house and my returning to work part time.

The college has been really nice to me. I'm designing my own schedule for each week and the times for my classes. Just knowing that they wanted me to come back gave me a new lease on life that I needed.

You’re going back to work now and I’m starting to think about calling it quits although I’m still having fun at it. Isn’t it amazing that when they want you, calling the shots doesn’t bother them at all. Last week marked the fifth year that I went back to work for my old employer as a consultant and still nobody bugs me about what I do and how I want to do it. Just like they said it would be when they coaxed me out of retirement. They sure never acted like this for the first 35 years. Amazing. :confuse:

jmonroe

driver100

planning on taking the car in at about 12 noon today, and they will give me a loaner for the week!

Sounds like the perfect plan. I am really impressed that the manufaturer is taking over. I will be even more impressed if they solve your problem.

I was thinking about the U.N. and Syria lately too. It is a shame so many people are being slaughtered while the world watches. I just know if the U.S. goes in to help, they will be cheered at first, and then demonized if they try to help. There are neighboring countries that should be helping. My biggest surprise is that the U.N. hasn't blamed the slaughter on Israel yet.

abacomike