That's kind of what I do with the car I store for the winter only instead of driving it (not possible) I let it idle until it reaches full operating temp.
Driving the car is best but getting the engine to operating temp is what is important. The down side of not driving the car is that you don’t put it under load and the transmission is not doing any work. Note that I said it is “BEST" to drive the car but getting the motor moving is very important.
I also crank it a couple of time without letting it start to pump the oil up a little.
I sure hope I'm not doing any damage doing it like that.
I don’t want to burst your bubble but until the oil pump is up to full speed I doubt that it is pumping much oil. So just start it up and get the parts moving and do it long enough to get the engine to normal temp.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Around these parts we run into challenges storing marine engines during the long winter season (generally October through April). My personal plan includes placing the battery on an electrical tender, draining the block of cooling water as best as possible, stabilizing the fuel, running the stabilized fuel through the injection system for 10 minutes, injecting engine fogger through the air intake system for a minute
I’ve never worked on marine engines but I’ve been told that they are in a class by themselves. It sure sounds like you’re doing the right things and you have mentioned plenty of things.
I should have mentioned that this old time lube engineer said what he said (late 70’s) about the regular oils not the synthetics but he felt that they would still have a moisture problem to some extent. We got into a discussion about the relatively new Mobil 1 and being an old coot he wanted to see lots of data before he was going to jump into the water. I’d say lots of data has been obtained by now and it’s been proven to be some pretty good stuff.
BTW, Son #2 was out in Utah this past week. He was there in February too. Not too far from the Salt Lake City area, I think he said Park City. Since the weather was good he and some fellow workers were taken to a place by the company he was visiting and they did some zip-lining. Yeah, he liked it and wants to do it again. Some fellow workers tried to get a video of him with his cell phone but they screwed it up. Had some still shots but according to Son #2, they ain’t the same.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm sure there are many fine ex-rental cars out there but I just can't get the image of grandma doing doughnuts in the Wal Mart parking lot out of my mind. My experience with rentals down in Florida tells me they lead a rough life compared to owner driven cars.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
basically defeating one of major lease advantages.
For it to be a major advantage there has to be a reasonable chance of the event occuring. Which leads to the question: How often do you total a vehicle?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Could you Floridians please redirect some of that rain to us here in Colorado? Temps above 100 last three days and it seems as if the whole state is on fire.
Good grief, believe me I WOULD IF I COULD! I know what it's like! I lived in Palm Desert, CA, for 8 years and know what daily temps in the 102-112 degrees Fahrenheit are like.
At least you get a break every now and then while people who live in the low desert don't. I used to go through a new battery for my car every 18-24 months from the extreme heat.
basically defeating one of major lease advantages.
For it to be a major advantage there has to be a reasonable chance of the event occuring. Which leads to the question: How often do you total a vehicle?
That's a good question actually, like does someone say, "I prefer to lease a car instead of buying one, in case I total it in the first year".
I have a feeling the insurance company is going to make sure it isn't an advantage too...if you don't pay for it immediately, you will pay for it later.
no, gap insurance will do exactly what it says. If it gets wrecked, you don't make up the (large) shortfall.
related is if the car is in a serious accident, but gets repaired. Just hand it back at the end. No problem (well, in theory!) with trying to sell/trade a car with a bad carfax and diminished value.
take your Passat, and have someone rearend it (must happen a lot in Fla!). Say it costs 6K to fix, more if one of the 75 airbags goes off.
then take it in to trade after 3 years, and see how much less they offer you.
not a huge deal if you are keeping the car for 10+ years, and running it into the ground, but certainly a consideration if your plan is 3 years or so max to own it.
You are right, "major" was a misstatement regarding total risk (it was full-term depreciation risk that the "major" part pertains to). However, that was not really the point. I was trying to say that in lease the deownpayment buys you very little slightly lower payment, but transfers part of this risk (short-term total) back to you. The chances may be small, but they are not cosmic - IMHO they are significant enough to be considered, when weighed againts small benefit of lower monthly payment.
I always just look at the up front cost savings on a monthly basis. Unless you are saving more in total (from the lower payments) then the DP, why bother? Put the money in the bank, and dole it out monthly if you need to.
and sometimes, not sure why, it works in reverse. I have seen some leases advertised where you actually pay more to make the DP, then if you make the payments monthly. It should work the other way, unless they are charging negative interest!
for ex., you can pay $225 or $250/mo, with $999 down. well, in 3 years, the extra payments only total $900. Yet, people will still put up the DP to "save" on the payments.
Put the money in the bank, and dole it out monthly if you need to.
I agree, except some people can't leave $2000 in the bank. For some, that might be too tempting, and they may want to spend it. So, then the downpayment of $2000 is like forced savings.
All I am saying is that you gave good reasons for doing $0 down on a lease, but, there could be exceptions where it may actually be better to lower the monthly payment.
I guess it is best when you go in to lease a car, to not say to the salesman, "Oh, I prefer to lease my cars just in case I total it in the first year".
you can pay $225 or $250/mo, with $999 down. well, in 3 years, the extra payments only total $900. Yet, people will still put up the DP to "save" on the payments.
It is best to calculate the savings if you are putting down money on the car. It should work out to the customers advantage to throw some money in....but, I am sure your example happens all the time.
That's an interesting point about oil and moisture. I use Yamalube (marketed by Yamaha) and have been warned to stay away from synthetics in marine engines due to their poor water handling capabilities. I figure the manufacturer knows a thing or two about lubrication in their engines so I stick with Yamaha's oil for that motor.
Oil aside, it's the darn ethanol that wreaks havoc with marine motors. My newer motor is okay with the 10% stuff, but nearly every motor is going to struggle with the newly authorized 15% garbage. Older motors especially so. It's corrosive and a magnet for moisture.
Park City is gorgeous any time of year, and it's high enough in elevation to escape the wildfire smoke in the Salt Lake and Utah County valleys. That large fire the news has been reporting on is just a dozen miles or so from my house, and literally right next to one of my mountain biking trails. Glad your son had a great time.
guess it is best when you go in to lease a car, to not say to the salesman, "Oh, I prefer to lease my cars just in case I total it in the first year
He won't care. He is paid to sell you car here and now. In fact, if you total one, he'd like it even more - can sell you one more. Even his F&I manager still won't care. He gets paid commission out of sold financing/leasing and now it's somebody else's problem.
Lately, that would be once every 5 years in my case. 3-1/2 more to go on this vehicle. :sick: Neither were my fault, but you just can't account for what someone else might do to your vehicle.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
For newer cars that sit idle for long periods of time, you might consider buying a battery charger or even keeping it on a battery tender. We have numerous complaints about newer vehicles with battery drain after only about a week of not being driven, due to the modern electronics sucking juice while the vehicle is parked. Make/model doesn't seem to be a big factor, but there are lots of instances where people return from a week-long vacation to find the battery dead.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Wow, after just one week idle the batteries are drained. That's crazy. I hope manufacturers will start including shutoff switches to completely isolate the battery if this trend continues.
For newer cars that sit idle for long periods of time, you might consider buying a battery charger or even keeping it on a battery tender.
Make/model doesn't seem to be a big factor, but there are lots of instances where people return from a week-long vacation to find the battery dead.
If the car’s electrical system is operating correctly you should not have to worry about a dead battery when the car is left sitting for only a week. I have an ’09 and a ’12 from two different manufactures and believe me they are loaded up with all the goodies (really don’t know what else they could have) and I have not had this problem.
I can’t say that I haven’t heard of this problem but a properly operating electrical system AND a good battery should not have this problem. The last time I heard of this problem was from a fellow worker about 7 months ago when they bought a new car (Honda Accord) about two/three days before they flew somewhere for vacation and when they returned the next week the battery was dead. I surmised that since the car was new it didn’t have a fully charged battery when they bought it (probably sat on the lot for a while) and then sitting for a week in the garage pushed it over the edge. The battery was slow charged for about 6 hours and they have not had the problem again. For grins, since it was their third car, they let it sit for a week and so far so good. I took credit for guessing correctly on that one and the guy bought me a coffee.
What if anything have the customers been told by their dealers about this. I can’t imagine a manufacture would say it is “normal” for a battery to drain in only a week. Then again, I know of a manufacture that gets out of doing warranty work given the opportunity.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yup, dealerships & the manufacturer say this is OK, and that that can happen in cars with so much modern technology & electronics. Some have replaced batteries, only to find they have the same issue. I'm sure in some cases, an under-charged battery is to blame. But we've seen it on several vehicles, and the owners have been told that they need to run it regularly or put it on a charger. I even reported the issue to our editorial staff here, and they said they're hearing the same, and that it's just an issue with some newer vehicles.
Honda Accord/Civic are 2 models that we've seen issues with - there's a dedicated (though small) discussion about battery drain on those two models.
Who knows for sure - our newer vehicle doesn't have that problem, and it can sit in the garage for weeks without being started during Winter. I just offered the suggestion in case driver wants to be prepared... and so that if it happened, he wouldn't be shocked.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I just offered the suggestion in case driver wants to be prepared... and so that if it happened, he wouldn't be shocked.
Thanks for the tip. My BIL lives 10 minutes away in Florida and he has had cars down there for about 12 years. He does unhooks the battery (if that is the right term) and coats it with lubricant.
He gets there way before us and leaves way after us, so he can drive it until mid April, and hook it up early in October. For May until September the battery will be unhooked....we can see if that works, and if it is a problem one of the neighbors might be able to take it out...have to see how that works for insurance though.
Some have replaced batteries, only to find they have the same issue.
OK, I’m going to give them credit for making sure the charging system is working as it should. With that being the case, I say it’s an undersized battery for the car. Probably the result of squeezing a few pennies which we all know they do. Given that the battery tray is probably stuffed even with the undersized battery, they can’t just bite the bullet and install a larger battery with a larger capacity. With how there is no room in the engine compartment today on almost all of the cars to install a new tray, their only hope is to get a higher capacity battery that still fits the tray, not such an easy thing to do even if they wanted to spend the money. It’s obvious that battery manufactures have their work cut out for them and I wouldn’t be surprised if car manufactures pitch in some bucks to help the new design make it to market quickly.
It will be interesting to see what next year’s models have done to correct the PROBLEM. And yes, it is a problem, NOT an issue as the politically correct words are today.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Ahhh...us technical wizards would say "disconnect".
You technical wizards need to be more creative, so "unhooked" might be a good new term to use.
In elementary school we were taught to be more original In sports, instead of using the overworn word "beat", as in New York beat Miami, you should use new terms such as "pounced on", "hammered", "outpaced", "thrashed", "monopolized", "bettered", "left in the dust", etc.
Just trying to add some colorful language to the tech world! :P
I have totaled 2 cars in my life so it would be once every 17 years.
But to be honest one of those totaled cars was a decade old worth a couple of hundred bucks. So a flat tire and a burned out tail light would have been enough to total the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That is the correct mind-set when going into a lease! It makes very little sense to put anything down, except 1st month's payment and lease fees charged by the bank or leasing company. People only put money down yo reduce monthly payments. You are much better off using multiple security deposits. That way, of car is totalled, you still get that back once the GAP is paid by insurance company!
I've never believed leases were a good deal for most individual buyers. The "deals" are too hard to dissect for most and the individual buyers are not able to understand the pieces if they are dissected. There are so many ways to pack costs into the lease as I've read discussions through the decades, I just can't believe there's a benefit. On the other hand, a business who has an accountant able to pick out the costs being included in the lease, may be able to benefit by controlling those and benefit from tax status.
My logic is that when dealers began pushing leases the only reason would be found by following the money. And that's because the dealers were benefiting in the end by getting more money out of the "sale" to the individual buyer.
I'm a leaser, I do know how to "spot a deal" and to figure my own lease if needed.
IMHO if you are going to trade out every 3-4 years you may as well lease. The depreciation costs are fixed, you won't have to do a lot of maintenance, etc
Everyone who mentions not putting money down is 100% correct. First payment and bank fee (if any) at the most. It should be around 1K.
The best leases are ones that are subsidized by the manufacturer with either A:) a low money factor, B:) inflated residual (ala BMW), C:) rebate or some combination of the three.
Take my Buick for example. There was a $3600 rebate, and a MF that was damn close to zero % on the lease. This made for a pretty attractive offer.
My car for 3 years will cost a little less than 19K (with all maintanance included) The MSRP was a little over 40K. I would be willing to bet that if I bought it, and then traded in three years it would be the same cost to own.
You may be minority. A lot of people lease because of low monthly payment: they have no clue what money factor or residuals are. All they know is they can "afford" their dream car for $399 (with $3999 down) and 10K/year. Moreover, those "great deal" commercials are targetting these exact people, not you, so "stay away" advice is generally a good one. Those who know, like you, don't need advice anyway. The rest, "stay away"
My logic is that when dealers began pushing leases the only reason would be found by following the money. And that's because the dealers were benefiting in the end by getting more money out of the "sale" to the individual buyer.
That’s the way I look at it too. When something is being pushed to the extent that leases are, there is a reason for it and all of the verbiage in the contract. I don’t want to root through it because I’ll have more questions than they can answer. I know plenty of people, my Florida brother included, that have resigned themselves to the fact that they will always have car payments so why not get something new every three years and always have a car that is in warranty...after all, I deserve it. In my brother’s case he can WELL afford it but I’m sure he is in the minority. Me, I used to hold onto cars for quite a while but now not so much. I’m starting to think I can afford my late-in-life habits but I live with someone who tells me I’m like a little kid all over again.
Son #2 said it best when I traded Mrs. jmonroe’s ’06 Sonata, that had just turned 13K miles, while I was enroute to the Ohio dealer when I got the ’09 Genny. He said, “damn, I remember the day when you would have been looking for a used car like that. You sure have changed”. He was right but now I don’t have to feed, clothe and educate two kids. Mrs. j eats like a bird, is fairly well educated and is a know-it-all but her cloths thing is like my car thing but I can handle it, I think. Of course being on this car forum isn’t helping anything either. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It can still work out overall in your favor, and as you note, you lock in depreciation (though that can work for or against you). But, there are extra costs to consider. bank fee, and disposition fee. And on some deals, that can be $1200 or more.
Becomes especially bad on ST leases. At least if you spread over 3 years it is not quite so bad.
you of course can get screwed on a lease for miles. Plenty of people take the 10K allotment, then end up changing driving habits and getting killed on miles overage. Bad enough to pay for a car and in the end have nothing to show for it, even worse to have to pay thousands of $$s to have them take it back!
It is IMO though a fair point that a lot of people that lease just look at the payment, and have no clue (or care) how it was derived. Just that they can squeeze driving a BMW into a Chevy budget.
imid....I'm not a fan of leases for the same exact reason. You negotiate a deal....one you feel is a good one. And, then you get to F&I only to find there are the bank fees, inception fees, acquisition fees, disposition fees, unusual wear and tear, Mileage overage, etc (or some mix of those ) tacked on. Now, that good deal isn't such a good deal any more.
tjc....you're right. If you know what and how to spot the good lease deals, it can be a good way to go.
However, most are trying to hit a payment. As with a purchase, the wrong way to negotiate for a car, whether leasing or buying, is basing it on a payment.
I leased couple of times, a long time ago. I know I couldn't predict what my mileage would be from one year to the next. And, I was either underpaying for mileage (which meant I had to come up with even more money by lease end) or I was overpaying on mileage (in which case I paid for mileage I never used).
I was constantly paranoid about every little ding or paint chip. And, as I said, I negotiated what I thought was a good price on the car, only to have hundreds added on the back end for all the fees. Not a good deal after all.
Then again, I wasn't writing mine off on a business, either (which would prove helpful for a lease).
It can still work out overall in your favor, and as you note, you lock in depreciation (though that can work for or against you)
It really doesn't ever work against you. If the value drops (IE large SUVs a few years ago) you turn it in and walk away. If the value at the end is much higher than your residual you can always try trading it (or getting a buy bid from a dealer) before your last payment and cash out.
I still say I made out extremely well on my Genesis. I ended up driving that 36K car for a little over 12K for 28 months (since I sold it and cashed out a few bucks).
My cousin just leased a new Maxima for his wife. MSRP near 40K. They were ending a lease on a fully decked out Altima. The dealer wanted it, offered a trade value about 2500 more than residual. They used it as a cap cost reduction and combined with a decent lease offer from Nissan they have a payment on a 40K car under 400/ month. Not too shabby (no cash out of pocket of course).
I agree. If you can't do the math, leasing is tough. Dealers can mark up MFs, add on fees etc. I guess the old adage buyer beware fits well.
I never negotiate my leases on monthly payment alone. I look at the whole sheet and look at purchase price etc. If you get the purchase price down and know what the MF/residual is you shouldn't get burned.
It also goes without saying some cars just don't lease well. My Buick had a pretty crappy residual (49% IIRC) but GM was throwing a large rebate to help offset that. Without the rebate the lease would have been 100/month higher and I would have never gone for that.
When I was in the business, I always tried to be up front with ALL customers. If the lease money factor (our buy rate) was out of whack against the customer, I would try to work out a lease as well as a purchase so he/she could make an educated decision. If money factors ere low or subsidized by the manufacturer, I showed them the advantages of leasing over purchasing, especially if the residual was subsidized as well.
I leased vehicles when money was tight when the kids were in college and now I only purchase since there is no advantage to leasing for me. I trade cars too often. Very difficult/costly to get out of a lease early!
I don't mean to be judgmental or anything, but when money is "tight", one should not wonder into a dealership in search for a new vehicle to drive. (ducking)
*dino, you misunderstood what I was trying to say! I meant that when money was tight for my family, I used to lease because it was much less expensive than buying and paying off a loan! I did not mean for you to think that when money is tight worldwide, or nationwide, that it is wiser to lease!
Leasing is much less expensive than buying a used car. If I spent $12000 on a used car and paid that off over 3 years, I'd be paying $380 a month including tax and interest at 6% for each.
If I lease a $20000 car for 3 years, with a 60% residual, I would be paying $100+ a month LESS for the leased vehicle than for the purchased used vehicle. Back when I leased cars, interest rates were around 6% +/- a percent.
The whole thing with leasing like many of you say is that you need to FULLY UNDERSTAND there are different parts to a lease like the selling price, money factor, bank fee (BMW dealers can mark this up by $200) that are negotiable. The residual value is set by the bank. If you go into a lease looking for the cheapest monthly payment you will get burned. Leasing is more expensive, but in many circumstances work out in your favor.
The great kyfdx said it best: "leasing should be thought of as an alternate method of financing." When I went looking for my current BMW 328xi, I had all intentions of financing it (at 0.9%) for 5 years. I drive 20,000 miles a year (65 miles round trip/6 days a week). I negotiated the selling price of the car (taking advantage of a $2500 rebate). The payments came to $690 per month. I knew I could afford this.
I used my negotiated selling price as the base capitalized cost for the lease, then ran the numbers using BMWs inflated residual and decent money factor (4.32%). Extra miles were added up front (15K) so the lease includes 20K per year. For 30 months (2 1/2 years), my lease payment is $572/ month. The lease is attractive to me because the depreciation (most expensive cost of vehicle ownership) is fixed. Since I do a lot of driving, my car will be worth considerably less at trade in time. When the car has 50,000 miles after 30 months, I can just walk away.
Will the car fall apart at 50,000 miles (the end of BMWs free maintenance)? No, BMWs are built to last as long as they are properly maintained. Between 50,000 & 60,000 miles, my BMW will require a lot of maintenance (Front Pads, Rear Pads, Front Rotors, Inspection II major service, 4 new tires). So I'm spending $118 a month less ($3540 for the life of the lease). I'm not going to have to spend the money on maintaining the vehicle. Is it more expensive to lease a new car instead of paying for maintenance & repairs on a car with 50,000 miles? Yes. Is it cheaper in the long run to buy the car & run it for 150,000 miles and not have a car payment for a few years? Yes.
I also had some positive equity in the Acura I traded in (after 2 years 8 months & almost 50,000 miles) that I got a check for. I didn't use the money as a cap cost reduction, just put it in my checking account. BMW made my 1st 2 payments for me (I had to pay $72 each), I got a $500 reabte check from BMW as a BMWCCA member (payment #3), and am using the equity to pay another 6 months worth of payments. So that's 9 months before I have to reach into my pocket for a car payment.
I've also resided myself to the fact that when my lease is up that I most likely won't be able to afford another BMW for the immediate future. I might choose to stay on the leasing hampster wheel (as isellhondas calls it) and have to go with a car that doesn't perform like my BMW does. Maybe I could lease a Camry or a Passat for $300/ month (with 20K per year) in September 2014 and use the extra money to pay off my wife's Pilot early.
Obviously the number 1 way leasing works out is if you lease (legitimately) through your business and can write off your lease payments for tax purposes.
The 2 vehicles I've leased so far, my wife's former 2007 BMW X3 and my current 2011 BMW 328xi have been possible due to heavily subsidized residual values. I know I'm not moving and I'm not changing jobs (ever). I've always wanted a BMW. I know they are expensive cars. So I made it fit into my budget.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I agree with you guys about knowing you have the power to merge & pass is "good enough." My 230 horsepower Inline 6 has just enough power for my needs. I would like to own a V8 powered car one day (just in case).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
That's right - I understood it perfectly. It is a matter of definitions.
To me, "tight money" means "I can't afford it, period", not "I get lower monthly payment by leasing". In my book of affordability, if I can't afford to buy it, I can't afford to lease it, either. If money is indeed "tight", there is not even a dillemma "should I buy or lease", the answer is "I keep driving what I have". Lease is not a magic wand turning expensive into affordable...
Comments
Driving the car is best but getting the engine to operating temp is what is important. The down side of not driving the car is that you don’t put it under load and the transmission is not doing any work. Note that I said it is “BEST" to drive the car but getting the motor moving is very important.
I also crank it a couple of time without letting it start to pump the oil up a little.
I sure hope I'm not doing any damage doing it like that.
I don’t want to burst your bubble but until the oil pump is up to full speed I doubt that it is pumping much oil. So just start it up and get the parts moving and do it long enough to get the engine to normal temp.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Of course I won't be showing up with a bus load of school kids.....
Got a buddy in Lithia, FL - Tampa area. He's got like eight severe weather warnings up!
On the local Toronto TV station they said Tampa/Clearwater got quite a bit of rain but no property damage.
Yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Yup, I might open it up and take bids to see who can look after the Passat.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I’ve never worked on marine engines but I’ve been told that they are in a class by themselves. It sure sounds like you’re doing the right things and you have mentioned plenty of things.
I should have mentioned that this old time lube engineer said what he said (late 70’s) about the regular oils not the synthetics but he felt that they would still have a moisture problem to some extent. We got into a discussion about the relatively new Mobil 1 and being an old coot he wanted to see lots of data before he was going to jump into the water. I’d say lots of data has been obtained by now and it’s been proven to be some pretty good stuff.
BTW, Son #2 was out in Utah this past week. He was there in February too. Not too far from the Salt Lake City area, I think he said Park City. Since the weather was good he and some fellow workers were taken to a place by the company he was visiting and they did some zip-lining. Yeah, he liked it and wants to do it again. Some fellow workers tried to get a video of him with his cell phone but they screwed it up. Had some still shots but according to Son #2, they ain’t the same.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm sure there are many fine ex-rental cars out there but I just can't get the image of grandma doing doughnuts in the Wal Mart parking lot out of my mind. My experience with rentals down in Florida tells me they lead a rough life compared to owner driven cars.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm pretty sure you can figure that out. :P
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
For it to be a major advantage there has to be a reasonable chance of the event occuring. Which leads to the question: How often do you total a vehicle?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Good grief, believe me I WOULD IF I COULD! I know what it's like! I lived in Palm Desert, CA, for 8 years and know what daily temps in the 102-112 degrees Fahrenheit are like.
At least you get a break every now and then while people who live in the low desert don't. I used to go through a new battery for my car every 18-24 months from the extreme heat.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
For it to be a major advantage there has to be a reasonable chance of the event occuring. Which leads to the question: How often do you total a vehicle?
That's a good question actually, like does someone say, "I prefer to lease a car instead of buying one, in case I total it in the first year".
I have a feeling the insurance company is going to make sure it isn't an advantage too...if you don't pay for it immediately, you will pay for it later.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
related is if the car is in a serious accident, but gets repaired. Just hand it back at the end. No problem (well, in theory!) with trying to sell/trade a car with a bad carfax and diminished value.
take your Passat, and have someone rearend it (must happen a lot in Fla!). Say it costs 6K to fix, more if one of the 75 airbags goes off.
then take it in to trade after 3 years, and see how much less they offer you.
not a huge deal if you are keeping the car for 10+ years, and running it into the ground, but certainly a consideration if your plan is 3 years or so max to own it.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
and sometimes, not sure why, it works in reverse. I have seen some leases advertised where you actually pay more to make the DP, then if you make the payments monthly. It should work the other way, unless they are charging negative interest!
for ex., you can pay $225 or $250/mo, with $999 down. well, in 3 years, the extra payments only total $900. Yet, people will still put up the DP to "save" on the payments.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I agree, except some people can't leave $2000 in the bank. For some, that might be too tempting, and they may want to spend it. So, then the downpayment of $2000 is like forced savings.
All I am saying is that you gave good reasons for doing $0 down on a lease, but, there could be exceptions where it may actually be better to lower the monthly payment.
I guess it is best when you go in to lease a car, to not say to the salesman, "Oh, I prefer to lease my cars just in case I total it in the first year".
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It is best to calculate the savings if you are putting down money on the car. It should work out to the customers advantage to throw some money in....but, I am sure your example happens all the time.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Oil aside, it's the darn ethanol that wreaks havoc with marine motors. My newer motor is okay with the 10% stuff, but nearly every motor is going to struggle with the newly authorized 15% garbage. Older motors especially so. It's corrosive and a magnet for moisture.
Park City is gorgeous any time of year, and it's high enough in elevation to escape the wildfire smoke in the Salt Lake and Utah County valleys. That large fire the news has been reporting on is just a dozen miles or so from my house, and literally right next to one of my mountain biking trails. Glad your son had a great time.
He won't care. He is paid to sell you car here and now. In fact, if you total one, he'd like it even more - can sell you one more. Even his F&I manager still won't care. He gets paid commission out of sold financing/leasing and now it's somebody else's problem.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Lately, that would be once every 5 years in my case. 3-1/2 more to go on this vehicle. :sick:
Neither were my fault, but you just can't account for what someone else might do to your vehicle.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I assume you would like my thoughts on this.
For newer cars that sit idle for long periods of time, you might consider buying a battery charger or even keeping it on a battery tender.
Make/model doesn't seem to be a big factor, but there are lots of instances where people return from a week-long vacation to find the battery dead.
If the car’s electrical system is operating correctly you should not have to worry about a dead battery when the car is left sitting for only a week. I have an ’09 and a ’12 from two different manufactures and believe me they are loaded up with all the goodies (really don’t know what else they could have) and I have not had this problem.
I can’t say that I haven’t heard of this problem but a properly operating electrical system AND a good battery should not have this problem. The last time I heard of this problem was from a fellow worker about 7 months ago when they bought a new car (Honda Accord) about two/three days before they flew somewhere for vacation and when they returned the next week the battery was dead. I surmised that since the car was new it didn’t have a fully charged battery when they bought it (probably sat on the lot for a while) and then sitting for a week in the garage pushed it over the edge. The battery was slow charged for about 6 hours and they have not had the problem again. For grins, since it was their third car, they let it sit for a week and so far so good. I took credit for guessing correctly on that one and the guy bought me a coffee.
What if anything have the customers been told by their dealers about this. I can’t imagine a manufacture would say it is “normal” for a battery to drain in only a week. Then again, I know of a manufacture that gets out of doing warranty work given the opportunity.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Honda Accord/Civic are 2 models that we've seen issues with - there's a dedicated (though small) discussion about battery drain on those two models.
Who knows for sure - our newer vehicle doesn't have that problem, and it can sit in the garage for weeks without being started during Winter. I just offered the suggestion in case driver wants to be prepared... and so that if it happened, he wouldn't be shocked.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Thanks for the tip. My BIL lives 10 minutes away in Florida and he has had cars down there for about 12 years. He does unhooks the battery (if that is the right term) and coats it with lubricant.
He gets there way before us and leaves way after us, so he can drive it until mid April, and hook it up early in October. For May until September the battery will be unhooked....we can see if that works, and if it is a problem one of the neighbors might be able to take it out...have to see how that works for insurance though.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
OK, I’m going to give them credit for making sure the charging system is working as it should. With that being the case, I say it’s an undersized battery for the car. Probably the result of squeezing a few pennies which we all know they do. Given that the battery tray is probably stuffed even with the undersized battery, they can’t just bite the bullet and install a larger battery with a larger capacity. With how there is no room in the engine compartment today on almost all of the cars to install a new tray, their only hope is to get a higher capacity battery that still fits the tray, not such an easy thing to do even if they wanted to spend the money. It’s obvious that battery manufactures have their work cut out for them and I wouldn’t be surprised if car manufactures pitch in some bucks to help the new design make it to market quickly.
It will be interesting to see what next year’s models have done to correct the PROBLEM. And yes, it is a problem, NOT an issue as the politically correct words are today.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not according to Isell..............
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Ahhh...us technical wizards would say "disconnect".
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You technical wizards need to be more creative, so "unhooked" might be a good new term to use.
In elementary school we were taught to be more original In sports, instead of using the overworn word "beat", as in New York beat Miami, you should use new terms such as "pounced on", "hammered", "outpaced", "thrashed",
"monopolized", "bettered", "left in the dust", etc.
Just trying to add some colorful language to the tech world! :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
But to be honest one of those totaled cars was a decade old worth a couple of hundred bucks. So a flat tire and a burned out tail light would have been enough to total the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm still not putting money down on a lease...
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That is the correct mind-set when going into a lease! It makes very little sense to put anything down, except 1st month's payment and lease fees charged by the bank or leasing company. People only put money down yo reduce monthly payments. You are much better off using multiple security deposits. That way, of car is totalled, you still get that back once the GAP is paid by insurance company!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
My logic is that when dealers began pushing leases the only reason would be found by following the money. And that's because the dealers were benefiting in the end by getting more money out of the "sale" to the individual buyer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
IMHO if you are going to trade out every 3-4 years you may as well lease. The depreciation costs are fixed, you won't have to do a lot of maintenance, etc
Everyone who mentions not putting money down is 100% correct. First payment and bank fee (if any) at the most. It should be around 1K.
The best leases are ones that are subsidized by the manufacturer with either A:) a low money factor, B:) inflated residual (ala BMW), C:) rebate or some combination of the three.
Take my Buick for example. There was a $3600 rebate, and a MF that was damn close to zero % on the lease. This made for a pretty attractive offer.
My car for 3 years will cost a little less than 19K (with all maintanance included) The MSRP was a little over 40K. I would be willing to bet that if I bought it, and then traded in three years it would be the same cost to own.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That’s the way I look at it too. When something is being pushed to the extent that leases are, there is a reason for it and all of the verbiage in the contract. I don’t want to root through it because I’ll have more questions than they can answer. I know plenty of people, my Florida brother included, that have resigned themselves to the fact that they will always have car payments so why not get something new every three years and always have a car that is in warranty...after all, I deserve it. In my brother’s case he can WELL afford it but I’m sure he is in the minority. Me, I used to hold onto cars for quite a while but now not so much. I’m starting to think I can afford my late-in-life habits but I live with someone who tells me I’m like a little kid all over again.
Son #2 said it best when I traded Mrs. jmonroe’s ’06 Sonata, that had just turned 13K miles, while I was enroute to the Ohio dealer when I got the ’09 Genny. He said, “damn, I remember the day when you would have been looking for a used car like that. You sure have changed”. He was right but now I don’t have to feed, clothe and educate two kids. Mrs. j eats like a bird, is fairly well educated and is a know-it-all but her cloths thing is like my car thing but I can handle it, I think. Of course being on this car forum isn’t helping anything either. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Becomes especially bad on ST leases. At least if you spread over 3 years it is not quite so bad.
you of course can get screwed on a lease for miles. Plenty of people take the 10K allotment, then end up changing driving habits and getting killed on miles overage. Bad enough to pay for a car and in the end have nothing to show for it, even worse to have to pay thousands of $$s to have them take it back!
It is IMO though a fair point that a lot of people that lease just look at the payment, and have no clue (or care) how it was derived. Just that they can squeeze driving a BMW into a Chevy budget.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
tjc....you're right. If you know what and how to spot the good lease deals, it can be a good way to go.
However, most are trying to hit a payment. As with a purchase, the wrong way to negotiate for a car, whether leasing or buying, is basing it on a payment.
I leased couple of times, a long time ago. I know I couldn't predict what my mileage would be from one year to the next. And, I was either underpaying for mileage (which meant I had to come up with even more money by lease end) or I was overpaying on mileage (in which case I paid for mileage I never used).
I was constantly paranoid about every little ding or paint chip. And, as I said, I negotiated what I thought was a good price on the car, only to have hundreds added on the back end for all the fees. Not a good deal after all.
Then again, I wasn't writing mine off on a business, either (which would prove helpful for a lease).
It really doesn't ever work against you. If the value drops (IE large SUVs a few years ago) you turn it in and walk away. If the value at the end is much higher than your residual you can always try trading it (or getting a buy bid from a dealer) before your last payment and cash out.
I still say I made out extremely well on my Genesis. I ended up driving that 36K car for a little over 12K for 28 months (since I sold it and cashed out a few bucks).
My cousin just leased a new Maxima for his wife. MSRP near 40K. They were ending a lease on a fully decked out Altima. The dealer wanted it, offered a trade value about 2500 more than residual. They used it as a cap cost reduction and combined with a decent lease offer from Nissan they have a payment on a 40K car under 400/ month. Not too shabby (no cash out of pocket of course).
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
I agree. If you can't do the math, leasing is tough. Dealers can mark up MFs, add on fees etc. I guess the old adage buyer beware fits well.
I never negotiate my leases on monthly payment alone. I look at the whole sheet and look at purchase price etc. If you get the purchase price down and know what the MF/residual is you shouldn't get burned.
It also goes without saying some cars just don't lease well. My Buick had a pretty crappy residual (49% IIRC) but GM was throwing a large rebate to help offset that. Without the rebate the lease would have been 100/month higher and I would have never gone for that.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
When I was in the business, I always tried to be up front with ALL customers. If the lease money factor (our buy rate) was out of whack against the customer, I would try to work out a lease as well as a purchase so he/she could make an educated decision. If money factors ere low or subsidized by the manufacturer, I showed them the advantages of leasing over purchasing, especially if the residual was subsidized as well.
I leased vehicles when money was tight when the kids were in college and now I only purchase since there is no advantage to leasing for me. I trade cars too often. Very difficult/costly to get out of a lease early!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
2018 430i Gran Coupe
*dino, you misunderstood what I was trying to say! I meant that when money was tight for my family, I used to lease because it was much less expensive than buying and paying off a loan! I did not mean for you to think that when money is tight worldwide, or nationwide, that it is wiser to lease!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Leasing is much less expensive than buying a used car. If I spent $12000 on a used car and paid that off over 3 years, I'd be paying $380 a month including tax and interest at 6% for each.
If I lease a $20000 car for 3 years, with a 60% residual, I would be paying $100+ a month LESS for the leased vehicle than for the purchased used vehicle. Back when I leased cars, interest rates were around 6% +/- a percent.
I rest my case!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
The great kyfdx said it best: "leasing should be thought of as an alternate method of financing." When I went looking for my current BMW 328xi, I had all intentions of financing it (at 0.9%) for 5 years. I drive 20,000 miles a year (65 miles round trip/6 days a week). I negotiated the selling price of the car (taking advantage of a $2500 rebate). The payments came to $690 per month. I knew I could afford this.
I used my negotiated selling price as the base capitalized cost for the lease, then ran the numbers using BMWs inflated residual and decent money factor (4.32%). Extra miles were added up front (15K) so the lease includes 20K per year. For 30 months (2 1/2 years), my lease payment is $572/ month. The lease is attractive to me because the depreciation (most expensive cost of vehicle ownership) is fixed. Since I do a lot of driving, my car will be worth considerably less at trade in time. When the car has 50,000 miles after 30 months, I can just walk away.
Will the car fall apart at 50,000 miles (the end of BMWs free maintenance)? No, BMWs are built to last as long as they are properly maintained. Between 50,000 & 60,000 miles, my BMW will require a lot of maintenance (Front Pads, Rear Pads, Front Rotors, Inspection II major service, 4 new tires). So I'm spending $118 a month less ($3540 for the life of the lease). I'm not going to have to spend the money on maintaining the vehicle. Is it more expensive to lease a new car instead of paying for maintenance & repairs on a car with 50,000 miles? Yes. Is it cheaper in the long run to buy the car & run it for 150,000 miles and not have a car payment for a few years? Yes.
I also had some positive equity in the Acura I traded in (after 2 years 8 months & almost 50,000 miles) that I got a check for. I didn't use the money as a cap cost reduction, just put it in my checking account. BMW made my 1st 2 payments for me (I had to pay $72 each), I got a $500 reabte check from BMW as a BMWCCA member (payment #3), and am using the equity to pay another 6 months worth of payments. So that's 9 months before I have to reach into my pocket for a car payment.
I've also resided myself to the fact that when my lease is up that I most likely won't be able to afford another BMW for the immediate future. I might choose to stay on the leasing hampster wheel (as isellhondas calls it) and have to go with a car that doesn't perform like my BMW does. Maybe I could lease a Camry or a Passat for $300/ month (with 20K per year) in September 2014 and use the extra money to pay off my wife's Pilot early.
Obviously the number 1 way leasing works out is if you lease (legitimately) through your business and can write off your lease payments for tax purposes.
The 2 vehicles I've leased so far, my wife's former 2007 BMW X3 and my current 2011 BMW 328xi have been possible due to heavily subsidized residual values. I know I'm not moving and I'm not changing jobs (ever). I've always wanted a BMW. I know they are expensive cars. So I made it fit into my budget.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
To me, "tight money" means "I can't afford it, period", not "I get lower monthly payment by leasing". In my book of affordability, if I can't afford to buy it, I can't afford to lease it, either. If money is indeed "tight", there is not even a dillemma "should I buy or lease", the answer is "I keep driving what I have". Lease is not a magic wand turning expensive into affordable...
2018 430i Gran Coupe