If you get the purchase price down and know what the MF/residual is you shouldn't get burned.
I agree tjc. It isn't that difficult. Just know what the selling price of the car is and the residula value will be, in case you want to buy it back
Take the difference and divide by 36 or the term of the lease. For example, lease a Camry with a MSRP of $30,000. Find your cost, lets say $28000. Buy back is $14000 after 3 years. Cost of the lease should be $28000-$14000 =$14000 divided by 36 months $388.88 a month. Expect to pay 2% to maybe 6% more depending on the cost of borrowing.
It isn't difficult. There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better, buying or leasing. It depends on your situation at that particular time.
For most people, owning will probably be better, but there are lots of times when leasing actually makes more sense.
$380*36=$13680, after three years you have a car worth about $6000, give or take. $280*36=$10080, after three years you have NOTHING, you have to dispose the car (fee), possible pay overage on miles - who know how much will that cost? Also, looking at your assumptions, they work only if your mileage allowance is low and money factor is near zero.
13680-6000-10080 = -$2400 - that is allowance on repairs, not even counting additional costs at lease disposal.
No, lease is not magic way to get a new stuff and pay less for it just because we wish to.
To me, "tight money" means "I can't afford it, period", not "I get lower monthly payment by leasing".
My own case illustrates a time money was tight, but leasing was just about my only option, and it made a lot of sense, and worked out for the best.
I was collecting unemployment of about $200 a week after deductions.
I had a 1992 Chev Cavalier.
I was starting my book business and needed a vehicle that could haul half a ton to 3/4s of a ton of books at a time.
FWD vans and station wagons won't hold up to that much weight.
I Leased a 2005 Jeep Ltd, $320 a month, for 30 months, $0 down.
I could claim the payments as a tax deduction, and I was able to start and grow my business. The Jeep made me feel good about things and was a good motivator.....and that is often forgotten when discussing this topic.
The Jeep made it possible for me to succeed in the business, and btw, I re-leased the Jeep for 2 more years for $220 a month, which really helped to keep me going.
Money was tight, leasing was my only option. The Jeep cost $9600 to operate for 2 and a half years, with payments I could manage.
There are times leasing makes sense.....even if money is tight.
To me, *dino, it's not a matter of affording it, when I said money was tight. When the kids were on college, it was costing me $1500 a month for each of them. That did not leave me much in cash flow, but I was earning $100,000 a year as a private school headmaster. So, I did not have the cash to put down on a new car, but I had enough to lease a car.
I actually do, what I'm trying to say, is there is no magic bullet. What you did you used your future earnings and stable cash flow to leverage and maintain your then-lifestyle with increased expenses due to college. There is nothing wrong with that - but it did not make those vehicles "cheaper" due to leasing. You were simply rolling over the ongoing expenses in expectation that some will eventually drop off, restoring your purchasing power.
Mike said...re: used car If I spent $12000 on a used car and paid that off over 3 years, I'd be paying $380 a month including tax
Dino says: $380*36=$13680, after three years you have a car worth about $6000, give or take.
The used car was $12000! What kind of a car can you get for that? That car will be unreliable at best, and need costly repairs at worst. You won't have a warranty on it. If it was a $30000 car when new it is probably 3 or 4 years old and has 40000 or 50000 miles on it.
I think if you are knowledgeable about cars, don't need the car for work or to get to work (might get fired if you are late too many times with an older unreliable car), find an excellent buy for $12k, then go with the used car.
If you really want reliability, not spend time worrying about the car, just lease the new one. You will know how you drove it and if it is a great car in great shape you will be able to buy it for $12000 in 3 years. Save some money to put into a down payment.
One thing, I don't believe people should get in over their heads. But there is a time to try to save money, and there are times when trying to save money will actually cost you even more money.
Chances are, leasing may have cost you a bit more...but you got a new reliable car and were able to juggle all the family matters fine. Leasing did what it was supposed to do for you.
Also, you had a salary that would easily cover the lease so why sweat it. If you bought a used car that you could buy, you may have bought an unreliable car that would have made your job difficult to get to, wasted time and energy, and it could have cost you more than just dollars in frazzled nerves.
Leasing is great in some situations.
Owning a home is usually better than renting. But, there are times when renting works out better, especially if you move often or just don't take care of your place. There is no one size fits all, and leasing is not a scam, it is a sensible way to have the use of a good car for a reasonable price - in some situations.
$380*36=$13680, after three years you have a car worth about $6000, give or take. $280*36=$10080, after three years you have NOTHING, you have to dispose the car (fee), possible pay overage on miles - who know how much will that cost? Also, looking at your assumptions, they work only if your mileage allowance is low and money factor is near zero.
13680-6000-10080 = -$2400 - that is allowance on repairs, not even counting additional costs at lease disposal.
Interesting take on this. The leased car will basically cost nothing to maintain over the 3 years. The used car will at minimum probably need a set of tires, brakes all around, a battery, and tranny/coolant flushes. Assuming you are having a garage do the work the 2400 "extra" gets eaten up really quickly. This is also assuming that the used car incurs no other out of warranty repairs.
To someone on a tight budget (but can afford the monthly) the leased car offers no expense other than the monthly note. Three $30.00 oil changes a year is about all the extra money you need to spend.
I disagree. There are plenty of decent cars for 12 grand. Two-three-year-old compacts that cost new 20 grand or less (Ford Focus, Hyundai Elantra, etc.). Once I almost bought 1.5-yr. old Accent (with above-average miles) for about 8 grand. Looked like new.
BTW, even cars with 40K miles are not "unreliable". Those are justifications created by people with money (including me) to make themselves feel better about changing cars more often. Again - nothing wrong with getting one, if one has money, but it is not less expensive to do so than keeping the old one. Depreciation is largest - BY FAR - cost of any vehicles. Repairs do not even come close. However, when we have money, we value our time much more, so even couple of hours in a garage becomes a major hassle. But it is not money, even if you include loss wages, it is the aggravation, or more correctly, the prospect of aggravation that makes us buy new stuff. The rest is just stories we make up. :P
What about possible new tires at disposal (not all makes and models, just sporty ones), wear and tear fixes, mileage overages? What about 15K and 30K services?
Most cars will make 36k on a set of tires. I got burned on my Avalon but that was my only car that needed new tires. It needed them over a year before I turned it in, my own fault for not insisting on one with Michelin instead of Bridge stone. I have never done a 15 or 30 k service on my leased cars and never had any problems.
I do change my own air and cabin filters once through my lease so add 40 bucks to overall cost.
Keep in mind many manufacturers are including maintenance for the first few years, off the top of my head BMW, Toyota, Volvo, Buick etc.
Overall IMHO maintenance costs on a typical three year 36k lease are virtually nothing.
I think it may also be vehicles. I owned two Subarus and now BMW 328 wagon - none of those had any kind of good lease, but loan offers were always quite decent, if not excellent (had 3.9% and 0 %). I always likes cars that are "different" and those don't really have lease offers. So it may be individual's experience that speaks.
BTW, I'm not really thrilled to learn that leasees neglect to take care of the cars they are trusted to - it goes against everything I believe, i.e. keeping true to my word and signature, even if the promise was made to an "evil" corporation, not an orphan or widow.... but well, it is between them and the bank. Just tells me in the future to avoid those lease returns from brands that have no paid maintenance, as apparently people don't seem to be compelled to abide the terms they signed... :sick:
you own a BMW. In the first 36K, it probably will tell you to come in for 2 oil changes. Maybe they throw on new wiper blades.
I know on my Hondas, In 3 years 36K the only thing on the schedule other than oil changes per the maintenance minder, is changing the brake fluid (and I would bet that 90% of owners, never mind leasers, don't do that!)
What you NEED can be quite modest but what you WANT has no limit. The 150 hp. In wifey's PT Cruiser is enough for everything but the 263hp. In the Eclipse "feels" better. 420hp. in a Mustang GT would satisfy a "want". Oh baby! :shades:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
What one "needs" regarding horsepower depends upon topography where one frequents and resides. Someone who drives city and suburban roads, but rarely gets on an interstate doesn't need what another might need if driving lots of highways.
When it comes to "want", my 1967 Corvette Stingray coupe with its 427 c.i. engine, 4 speed muncey stick and 435 hp was the fastest and most powerful car I ever owned. That car was king of the road in the 60's and, at times, difficult to control because of the narrow tires they used back then. No power steering and no a/c, just pure power! Wish I had that car now - had a spring loaded clutch which took lots of effort to push down on.
BTW, I'm not really thrilled to learn that leasees neglect to take care of the cars they are trusted to - it goes against everything I believe, i.e. keeping true to my word and signature, even if the promise was made to an "evil" corporation, not an orphan or widow.... but well, it is between them and the bank. Just tells me in the future to avoid those lease returns from brands that have no paid maintenance, as apparently people don't seem to be compelled to abide the terms they signed...
Is an oil change and tire rotation every 4-5K neglecting a modern car? Are you serious? The 15 and 30K services are mostly pure profit center for the dealership. Inspect this, inspect that. I'll put my "neglected" dealer serviced car against anyones. Like I mentioned I change my own air/cabin filters (most likely a 15K service item) once and usually a set of wipers during the term of the lease.
I'm sure there are people who never even change the oil the entire term whether or not it is paid for by the manufacturer.
I would be willing to bet that is the least requested service on any car. I've never done it unless I had the system opened up to replace a caliper/wheel cylinder.
I was trying to figure out if my '11 Explorer has a cabin air filter, so I did some research. In a parts site, I found one, then I found a youtube video about how to replace it. Going to do that one myself. Wife has bought up the topic of a new car a couple of times, so I guess I'll be on a new quest soon.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
as apparently people don't seem to be compelled to abide the terms they signed...
I can only speak for myself, but with the 2 cars I leased, I cared for them just as I would if I owned them. I always wanted to take care of them in case I wanted to buy them back after the lease.
Leasing is just a way to simplify the car owning experience at a lower monthly fee. You may pay a premium in the long run, but it is a good plan for many people.
It obviously doesn't suit you, but, for many people it makes driving a new car possible, at a lower price.
It really worked for me, and now I can actually buy a car. I like the feeling of owning, I like the fact I can sell it when I want to, I can keep it as long as I want to, I don't have to worry about the mileage I do.
Honda actually put it in their maintenance schedule (every 2 years I think). I am sure the vast majority of people ignore doing it. And they seem to be just about the only maker that does (I know BMWphiles are big on it, but not sure if BMW calls for it).
Back on the late 80's and early 90's, which is when this was happening, I could get a lot of car for $12000. Wouldn't you agree?
If we are talking late 80s or early 90s I would agree - if it was a used car. If we are talking 2012, hmmm, not so much.
My 1992 Cavalier cost about $16000. My 1995 Jeep about $30,000. I would agree $12000 could buy a descent used car, but not a fabulous completely trouble free car. If you bought a $12000 car and paid it off in 3 years your payments could be close to $400 (with tax). Leasing a $20000 car would be around $300 a month, and then you could buy it back for a very reasonable $10000.
I would feel better leasing the new car for less money, and then buying it at the end of the lease if it was still a good car. For me, peace of mind and minimum aggravation are more important than saving a few dollars over a 3 to 5 or 6 year period.
My Dad has a gorgeous 1966 427/390 Roadster in his garage. Numbers matching. Moss Port Green/Black/Black. 82K miles. It hasn't left the garage since Memorial Day 1999.
Like I said before, leasing is more expensive than owning. I just thought of the $725 Acquisition Fee, the $350 for new plates (if I had bought, I'd just transfer the old plates), & the $350 disposition fee at the end of the lease. That $1425 could go towards purchasing BMWs extended maintenance package which would cover me up to 100K miles.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I totally agree with you. That is why I leased cars during that period of my life when I could not afford a new car. I used to keep cars for at least 3 years then so leasing was the least expensive way of driving a trouble free new car instead of buying a used car that was questionable in terms of reliability.
VW stipulates brake fluid changes every 2 years as well. Given how hydrophilic the fluid is, changing it out makes sense. There's not much between a driver and loss of braking, and given the serious consequences of boiling fluid, I'm not concerned about the minimal cost of following the manufacturers' recommendations.
I'm just beginning to catch up on two weeks of these posts. We have worked each day for 10 days from early morning to late night getting settled. The furniture is in place; the 78 boxes are unpacked and put away; the large mirrors and oil paintings are hung; the window treatments are in the process of being made; and the lawn care company has spruced up the oriental garden and the front lawn. We're still in the process of finding two more oriental rugs and some fabric for windows. All in all, we're fairly well settled. Everyone seems glad to have us back in town and it feels good to us to be here.
I agree with you about Facebook---don't care for it. I have 432 "friends", mostly former students, but I don't visit the site very often. It doesn't interest me to know that Sally Sue prepared a fish fry for dinner or that George played ten rounds of golf on Saturday. I am also very careful about what I post there and how much personal information there is about myself.
Though a bit hectic, it can still be fun planning the wedding. I am definitely one who still believes in formal invitations being sent. I also believe in Thank You notes being written for gifts. Many young people today fail to do this. A verbal gesture or an email does not satisfy that requirement. If I took the time to select and purchase a gift, then you should take the time to write me a note. At any rate, enjoy yourselves and make your own decisions. It's your wedding. When we were married, our mothers promised to buy their dresses and keep their mouths shut. They kept half of the bargain; they purchased their dresses.
oldfarmer, I know you actually own a Vette, not just a T Shirt, but you need to know some minor details that all true Vette enthusiasts know. Sting Ray was used thru 1967. 68 and later it changed to Stingray (one word). They also made a low production number called the Mako Shark (expensive). Look at my profile name and you'll understand where it came from. ps Those 427s ran on bias ply tires as radials weren't in common use yet.
I'm just beginning to catch up on two weeks of these posts.
Nice to have you back, glad everything went well with the move and now you can enjoy your new home.
Now go back to post 80297 and read about the new car we got for my wife just so I could retain my membership in the club - new rule, you have to buy at least one new car a year - you may be surprised to find out it wasn't a BMW! :surprise:
I am careful with money too, and leasing will probably cost more in the long run, but if used wisely it might be the answer in certain situations.
There was an article in the paper the other day, the difference between being "frugal" and "cheap".
Here is an example: Buying cheap will cost you more
Sometimes buying the cheapest product can create a cycle of buying and replacing inferior products. You might get an instant savings when you choose the cheaper item, but you end up spending more over the long term because you have to replace it more frequently.
My boyfriend kept buying sneakers that cost $20 to $30, but they never kept his feet dry in the rainy Vancouver weather. So, every three months he bought a new pair. Finally he decided to splurge on a pair of higher quality shoes for $90. Three months later they are in excellent condition.
Relating this to cars: You can buy a cheap used car and hopefully it will last and be reliable with few repairs. But, if it is a lemon, you will probably spend more money in the long run, by the time you make repairs and buy another car.
Sometimes, what seems to be the least costly will cost more.
I am not saying that if a person can't afford a car they should lease one so every one can drive a new car. Just, thaty in certain situations leasing could be the answer.
It is true, a lot of it are checks. However, auto transmission and differential fluids need to be changed at at least 30K, sometimes sooner. Surely, checking brake pads doesn't hurt (some cars have very good brakes, but they don't last as long). You mentioned filters, I'm glad you do that - somehow seeing car going 30-40K on one air filter is not a great thing. Tire rotation also comes in mind as something to do couple of times during ownership. Alignment - perhaps can be omitted if there are no signs of uneven wear and car runs straight. In some circumstances, brake fluid and coolant may also need changing (not as common, though - new fluids seem to last longer and some mfr. even have certain "lifetime" fluids).
Yeah, I think there is more than just oil change, even on new cars. It may not be whole lot more, but a few things need to be looked at by somebody who knows. It may be the owner, if they know. If I had to choose one thing that's not done and should be, it is probably automatic transmission fluid change. Most owners don't realize that you don't wait until it changes color. If it's black, it's already too late (i.e. the transmission is already shot).
I don't believe any of the newer vehicles spec transmission fluid replacement anywhere near 36K. GM calls the fluid "lifetime" in the new 6 speed units in most of their cars. If I was owning I think I would change it out around 60K or so to be safe. A $150 service is nothing compared to a $4000 transmission.
Toyota wanted to replace my front pads on my Avalon at something like 20K, then at 25K they were "dangerously low". At 33k ish when the car went back they were still fine.
Though a bit hectic, it can still be fun planning the wedding. I am definitely one who still believes in formal invitations being sent. I also believe in Thank You notes being written for gifts. Many young people today fail to do this. A verbal gesture or an email does not satisfy that requirement. If I took the time to select and purchase a gift, then you should take the time to write me a note. At any rate, enjoy yourselves and make your own decisions. It's your wedding. When we were married, our mothers promised to buy their dresses and keep their mouths shut. They kept half of the bargain; they purchased their dresses.
Great to hear from you. The new house sounds beautful. I hope you get everything the way you want it ASAP.
Thanks for the kind words. It is a stressful time planning everything, but in the end I think we are going to have an incredible affair for our guests. The final total is looking like 140 people. Not huge, but my Fiance doesn't any family.
We are 100% traditional. Paper mailed out invitations and the Thank You cards are already made and in our possession. We were at the craft store last night picking out different ribbon for the invites as she didn't like what came with them. :sick: Just a little over 100 days until the big day!
I'm not surprised GM calls it lifetime, as their products don't last past 80K :P just kidding, well, OK - kidding
Now seriously - there is a tendency of increasing service intervals and fluid changes on modern cars. I believe it was due long time ago - in other parts of the world it is normal to those have long intervals. However, they also use there much higher quality fluids, especially engine and transmission fluids (also brake, coolant and power steering). Mineral engine oils were abandoned there 20 years ago and today even a European-spec subcompact Opel or Ford uses fully synthetic oil. They cost considerably more per litter (1.1 quart), but they can run for 10-15 thousand miles even in city traffic. Now that manufacturers started offering maintenance, they will apply those things as well.
The only issue is old habits don't die so easily, so after paid maintenance lapses the owners will take their cars to Jiffy Lube or other friendly mechanic shops, and put cheapest oil they can find, but they will still expect the interval remain long. The situation may even become worse with those new high-tech turbocharged engines, present everywhere now - those simply cannot take these dense oils (turbo bearings spin at five times engine revvs) - they need those thin oils with high temperature resistance.
The mechanics will still use old oils and and old approach on those, which is likely a kiss of death. It already happened in the past, when turbos were introduced - which of course gave them bad name. Hopefully this time the manufacturers will educate both owners and mechanics that those new engines are not you father's V6 or V8. Will see.
you are talking about stuff that you would do for comfort. But I guarantee that no new car, whether it is a brand that includes free maintenance or not, has changing the tranny fluid or transaxle fluid (well, there might be a couple of AWD units that are supposed to be) or coolant, etc. in the first 3 years.
most cars now are either lifetime, or somewhere over 100K for anything like that.
Heck, If BMW thinks you only need to change your oil every 15K, why would they think you ever need to replace the trans fluid?
that is actually one reason I take my cars to the dealer for routine service. Plus, the Honda dealer usually has a coupon, so it costs the same or less than a decent quick lube place, but I know it is getting the correct fluids.
plus, they do a nice multi-point inspection.
not sure yet what my wife's new car will be, but most likely not a turbo (unless we go with the 2.0T Hyundai). But, even the NA cars will still get taken to the dealer, though for us, that is at most every 6 months.
>I'm not surprised GM calls it lifetime, as their products don't last past 80K
I think that's picking on someone without basis. I would suggest looking at Honda transmissions over the last 20 years if you want to analyze failure patterns. I have had many GM transmissions through 30 years and they have worked and lasted without failure.
the day I turn over 1,000 miles since re-setting my trip odometer on January 1. Thought I was going to do it yesterday, but short of taking an unnecessary trip around the block, I didn't quite make it. Considering it's going to be 102 degrees here today, I'm going to need something awfully badly to go out. Oh yeah, dog food...
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
More importantly, can anyone guess what kind of car/SUV/truck and what year Kirstie drives based on the narrow photo of her dashboard? Extra credit for the exterior vehicle color.
Of course she may have already said so no fair if you know. I'm guessing some kind of American or Japanese truck or SUV although I have no reasonable rationale for that choice. The dash does not look like European design, however. Gogiboy
I'm pretty sure I shared all of those details here, but I won't say when so it'll make those posts harder to find.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
VW stipulates brake fluid changes every 2 years as well. Given how hydrophilic the fluid is, changing it out makes sense. There's not much between a driver and loss of braking, and given the serious consequences of boiling fluid, I'm not concerned about the minimal cost of following the manufacturers' recommendations.
Man, you got that right about brake fluid having an affinity for water. It’s silicone oil so it WILL absorb moisture. I have personally pulled a vacuum on beakers of silicone oil that were being stirred and heated to remove air and residual moisture from it so that it could be used in filled instrument capillary lines.
Years ago I was told that doing this was much more involved than getting the air and moisture out. You had to be prepared for the transfer to the capillary lines right from the container that had the silicone oil that was “conditioned”. You can’t just pour it into the filling apparatus because it will absorb moisture aside from air being re-introduced into the silicone oil due to pouring it into another container. I knew about the air thing but I had to see this moisture phenomena thingy first hand. So, being a guy that had to see this for himself, the first time I did this, I pulled the plug on a test beaker then put it back and checked for moisture. Damn, the old coot was right; the moisture was now above the acceptable level for filling the capillary lines after just a few seconds of being open to the atmosphere of the room where this was being done. I did this 4 or 5 times just to be sure the test instruments were right. Ok, I ain’t going to doubt that guy again.
The first thing that came to mind when I saw this was ‘gee, my cars brake system uses silicone oil, what’s going on in there’? After that experiment, I make sure I flush my cars brake system at an interval that is no longer than 2 years. It’s usually done every year when I do my pre-safety inspection, which includes a brake inspection, for the PA required annual safety inspection. There is just too much of a chance that the moisture will cause rust/corrosion to the brake systems components. Replacing a wheel cylinder is not that bad but I darn sure don’t want to be replacing the ABS unit even at my DIY price. Having that done by a dealer/garage is enough to give us DIYers nightmares.
Brakes are the only thing that stop cars safely.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Comments
I agree tjc. It isn't that difficult. Just know what the selling price of the car is and the residula value will be, in case you want to buy it back
Take the difference and divide by 36 or the term of the lease. For example, lease a Camry with a MSRP of $30,000. Find your cost, lets say $28000.
Buy back is $14000 after 3 years. Cost of the lease should be $28000-$14000 =$14000 divided by 36 months $388.88 a month. Expect to pay 2% to maybe 6% more depending on the cost of borrowing.
It isn't difficult. There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better, buying or leasing. It depends on your situation at that particular time.
For most people, owning will probably be better, but there are lots of times when leasing actually makes more sense.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
$280*36=$10080, after three years you have NOTHING, you have to dispose the car (fee), possible pay overage on miles - who know how much will that cost? Also, looking at your assumptions, they work only if your mileage allowance is low and money factor is near zero.
13680-6000-10080 = -$2400 - that is allowance on repairs, not even counting additional costs at lease disposal.
No, lease is not magic way to get a new stuff and pay less for it just because we wish to.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
My own case illustrates a time money was tight, but leasing was just about my only option, and it made a lot of sense, and worked out for the best.
I was collecting unemployment of about $200 a week after deductions.
I had a 1992 Chev Cavalier.
I was starting my book business and needed a vehicle that could haul half a ton to 3/4s of a ton of books at a time.
FWD vans and station wagons won't hold up to that much weight.
I Leased a 2005 Jeep Ltd, $320 a month, for 30 months, $0 down.
I could claim the payments as a tax deduction, and I was able to start and grow my business. The Jeep made me feel good about things and was a good motivator.....and that is often forgotten when discussing this topic.
The Jeep made it possible for me to succeed in the business, and btw, I re-leased the Jeep for 2 more years for $220 a month, which really helped to keep me going.
Money was tight, leasing was my only option. The Jeep cost $9600 to operate for 2 and a half years, with payments I could manage.
There are times leasing makes sense.....even if money is tight.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
To me, *dino, it's not a matter of affording it, when I said money was tight. When the kids were on college, it was costing me $1500 a month for each of them. That did not leave me much in cash flow, but I was earning $100,000 a year as a private school headmaster. So, I did not have the cash to put down on a new car, but I had enough to lease a car.
Do you see what I a trying to convey?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I coudn't agree more. It is a personal preference.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
and if you are going to get a new car then anyway, that money is going to disappear as a down payment.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Dino says: $380*36=$13680, after three years you have a car worth about $6000, give or take.
The used car was $12000! What kind of a car can you get for that? That car will be unreliable at best, and need costly repairs at worst. You won't have a warranty on it. If it was a $30000 car when new it is probably 3 or 4 years old and has 40000 or 50000 miles on it.
I think if you are knowledgeable about cars, don't need the car for work or to get to work (might get fired if you are late too many times with an older unreliable car), find an excellent buy for $12k, then go with the used car.
If you really want reliability, not spend time worrying about the car, just lease the new one. You will know how you drove it and if it is a great car in great shape you will be able to buy it for $12000 in 3 years. Save some money to put into a down payment.
One thing, I don't believe people should get in over their heads. But there is a time to try to save money, and there are times when trying to save money will actually cost you even more money.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Chances are, leasing may have cost you a bit more...but you got a new reliable car and were able to juggle all the family matters fine. Leasing did what it was supposed to do for you.
Also, you had a salary that would easily cover the lease so why sweat it. If you bought a used car that you could buy, you may have bought an unreliable car that would have made your job difficult to get to, wasted time and energy, and it could have cost you more than just dollars in frazzled nerves.
Leasing is great in some situations.
Owning a home is usually better than renting. But, there are times when renting works out better, especially if you move often or just don't take care of your place. There is no one size fits all, and leasing is not a scam, it is a sensible way to have the use of a good car for a reasonable price - in some situations.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
$280*36=$10080, after three years you have NOTHING, you have to dispose the car (fee), possible pay overage on miles - who know how much will that cost? Also, looking at your assumptions, they work only if your mileage allowance is low and money factor is near zero.
13680-6000-10080 = -$2400 - that is allowance on repairs, not even counting additional costs at lease disposal.
Interesting take on this. The leased car will basically cost nothing to maintain over the 3 years. The used car will at minimum probably need a set of tires, brakes all around, a battery, and tranny/coolant flushes. Assuming you are having a garage do the work the 2400 "extra" gets eaten up really quickly. This is also assuming that the used car incurs no other out of warranty repairs.
To someone on a tight budget (but can afford the monthly) the leased car offers no expense other than the monthly note. Three $30.00 oil changes a year is about all the extra money you need to spend.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
BTW, even cars with 40K miles are not "unreliable". Those are justifications created by people with money (including me) to make themselves feel better about changing cars more often. Again - nothing wrong with getting one, if one has money, but it is not less expensive to do so than keeping the old one. Depreciation is largest - BY FAR - cost of any vehicles. Repairs do not even come close. However, when we have money, we value our time much more, so even couple of hours in a garage becomes a major hassle. But it is not money, even if you include loss wages, it is the aggravation, or more correctly, the prospect of aggravation that makes us buy new stuff. The rest is just stories we make up. :P
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I do change my own air and cabin filters once through my lease so add 40 bucks to overall cost.
Keep in mind many manufacturers are including maintenance for the first few years, off the top of my head BMW, Toyota, Volvo, Buick etc.
Overall IMHO maintenance costs on a typical three year 36k lease are virtually nothing.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
BTW, I'm not really thrilled to learn that leasees neglect to take care of the cars they are trusted to - it goes against everything I believe, i.e. keeping true to my word and signature, even if the promise was made to an "evil" corporation, not an orphan or widow.... but well, it is between them and the bank. Just tells me in the future to avoid those lease returns from brands that have no paid maintenance, as apparently people don't seem to be compelled to abide the terms they signed... :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I know on my Hondas, In 3 years 36K the only thing on the schedule other than oil changes per the maintenance minder, is changing the brake fluid (and I would bet that 90% of owners, never mind leasers, don't do that!)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
What you NEED can be quite modest but what you WANT has no limit. The 150 hp. In wifey's PT Cruiser is enough for everything but the 263hp. In the Eclipse "feels" better. 420hp. in a Mustang GT would satisfy a "want". Oh baby! :shades:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
What one "needs" regarding horsepower depends upon topography where one frequents and resides. Someone who drives city and suburban roads, but rarely gets on an interstate doesn't need what another might need if driving lots of highways.
When it comes to "want", my 1967 Corvette Stingray coupe with its 427 c.i. engine, 4 speed muncey stick and 435 hp was the fastest and most powerful car I ever owned. That car was king of the road in the 60's and, at times, difficult to control because of the narrow tires they used back then. No power steering and no a/c, just pure power! Wish I had that car now - had a spring loaded clutch which took lots of effort to push down on.
Those were the days!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Is an oil change and tire rotation every 4-5K neglecting a modern car? Are you serious? The 15 and 30K services are mostly pure profit center for the dealership. Inspect this, inspect that. I'll put my "neglected" dealer serviced car against anyones. Like I mentioned I change my own air/cabin filters (most likely a 15K service item) once and usually a set of wipers during the term of the lease.
I'm sure there are people who never even change the oil the entire term whether or not it is paid for by the manufacturer.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
I would be willing to bet that is the least requested service on any car. I've never done it unless I had the system opened up to replace a caliper/wheel cylinder.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
In a parts site, I found one, then I found a youtube video about how to replace it.
Going to do that one myself.
Wife has bought up the topic of a new car a couple of times, so I guess I'll be on a new quest soon.
And you let it go? That sucker would be worth $3000 on Craigslist today. Particularly if it had faded paint or a major mechanical problem. :lemon:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Back on the late 80's and early 90's, which is when this was happening, I could get a lot of car for $12000. Wouldn't you agree?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I can only speak for myself, but with the 2 cars I leased, I cared for them just as I would if I owned them. I always wanted to take care of them in case I wanted to buy them back after the lease.
Leasing is just a way to simplify the car owning experience at a lower monthly fee. You may pay a premium in the long run, but it is a good plan for many people.
It obviously doesn't suit you, but, for many people it makes driving a new car possible, at a lower price.
It really worked for me, and now I can actually buy a car. I like the feeling of owning, I like the fact I can sell it when I want to, I can keep it as long as I want to, I don't have to worry about the mileage I do.
But, leasing is still the answer for many people.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Man do you realize what that car would be worth today? Those Stingrays are real collector items.
Look what they want for this one:
http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/3049454949.html
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
It is actually a good idea on modern ABS cars.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If we are talking late 80s or early 90s I would agree - if it was a used car. If we are talking 2012, hmmm, not so much.
My 1992 Cavalier cost about $16000. My 1995 Jeep about $30,000.
I would agree $12000 could buy a descent used car, but not a fabulous completely trouble free car. If you bought a $12000 car and paid it off in 3 years your payments could be close to $400 (with tax). Leasing a $20000 car would be around $300 a month, and then you could buy it back for a very reasonable $10000.
I would feel better leasing the new car for less money, and then buying it at the end of the lease if it was still a good car. For me, peace of mind and minimum aggravation are more important than saving a few dollars over a 3 to 5 or 6 year period.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Like I said before, leasing is more expensive than owning. I just thought of the $725 Acquisition Fee, the $350 for new plates (if I had bought, I'd just transfer the old plates), & the $350 disposition fee at the end of the lease. That $1425 could go towards purchasing BMWs extended maintenance package which would cover me up to 100K miles.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I totally agree with you. That is why I leased cars during that period of my life when I could not afford a new car. I used to keep cars for at least 3 years then so leasing was the least expensive way of driving a trouble free new car instead of buying a used car that was questionable in terms of reliability.
We're on the same page *driver on this one.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I agree with you about Facebook---don't care for it. I have 432 "friends", mostly former students, but I don't visit the site very often. It doesn't interest me to know that Sally Sue prepared a fish fry for dinner or that George played ten rounds of golf on Saturday. I am also very careful about what I post there and how much personal information there is about myself.
Though a bit hectic, it can still be fun planning the wedding. I am definitely one who still believes in formal invitations being sent. I also believe in Thank You notes being written for gifts. Many young people today fail to do this. A verbal gesture or an email does not satisfy that requirement. If I took the time to select and purchase a gift, then you should take the time to write me a note. At any rate, enjoy yourselves and make your own decisions. It's your wedding. When we were married, our mothers promised to buy their dresses and keep their mouths shut. They kept half of the bargain; they purchased their dresses.
Richard
Sting Ray was used thru 1967. 68 and later it changed to Stingray (one word).
They also made a low production number called the Mako Shark (expensive). Look at my profile name and you'll understand where it came from.
ps Those 427s ran on bias ply tires as radials weren't in common use yet.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Richard, glad to hear your plan is coming together. I can't remember where you moved to. Was it Georgia? Care to tell us more accurately where?
You sound like you're enjoying getting it all set up. Our last move was kind of fun albeit a lot of work. Being retired helps.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Nice to have you back, glad everything went well with the move and now you can enjoy your new home.
Now go back to post 80297 and read about the new car we got for my wife just so I could retain my membership in the club - new rule, you have to buy at least one new car a year - you may be surprised to find out it wasn't a BMW! :surprise:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
We definitely are.
I am careful with money too, and leasing will probably cost more in the long run, but if used wisely it might be the answer in certain situations.
There was an article in the paper the other day, the difference between being "frugal" and "cheap".
Here is an example:
Buying cheap will cost you more
Sometimes buying the cheapest product can create a cycle of buying and replacing inferior products. You might get an instant savings when you choose the cheaper item, but you end up spending more over the long term because you have to replace it more frequently.
My boyfriend kept buying sneakers that cost $20 to $30, but they never kept his feet dry in the rainy Vancouver weather. So, every three months he bought a new pair. Finally he decided to splurge on a pair of higher quality shoes for $90. Three months later they are in excellent condition.
Relating this to cars:
You can buy a cheap used car and hopefully it will last and be reliable with few repairs. But, if it is a lemon, you will probably spend more money in the long run, by the time you make repairs and buy another car.
Sometimes, what seems to be the least costly will cost more.
I am not saying that if a person can't afford a car they should lease one so every one can drive a new car. Just, thaty in certain situations leasing could be the answer.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Yeah, I think there is more than just oil change, even on new cars. It may not be whole lot more, but a few things need to be looked at by somebody who knows. It may be the owner, if they know. If I had to choose one thing that's not done and should be, it is probably automatic transmission fluid change. Most owners don't realize that you don't wait until it changes color. If it's black, it's already too late (i.e. the transmission is already shot).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Toyota wanted to replace my front pads on my Avalon at something like 20K, then at 25K they were "dangerously low". At 33k ish when the car went back they were still fine.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Great to hear from you. The new house sounds beautful. I hope you get everything the way you want it ASAP.
Thanks for the kind words. It is a stressful time planning everything, but in the end I think we are going to have an incredible affair for our guests. The final total is looking like 140 people. Not huge, but my Fiance doesn't any family.
We are 100% traditional. Paper mailed out invitations and the Thank You cards are already made and in our possession. We were at the craft store last night picking out different ribbon for the invites as she didn't like what came with them. :sick: Just a little over 100 days until the big day!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Now seriously - there is a tendency of increasing service intervals and fluid changes on modern cars. I believe it was due long time ago - in other parts of the world it is normal to those have long intervals. However, they also use there much higher quality fluids, especially engine and transmission fluids (also brake, coolant and power steering). Mineral engine oils were abandoned there 20 years ago and today even a European-spec subcompact Opel or Ford uses fully synthetic oil. They cost considerably more per litter (1.1 quart), but they can run for 10-15 thousand miles even in city traffic. Now that manufacturers started offering maintenance, they will apply those things as well.
The only issue is old habits don't die so easily, so after paid maintenance lapses the owners will take their cars to Jiffy Lube or other friendly mechanic shops, and put cheapest oil they can find, but they will still expect the interval remain long. The situation may even become worse with those new high-tech turbocharged engines, present everywhere now - those simply cannot take these dense oils (turbo bearings spin at five times engine revvs) - they need those thin oils with high temperature resistance.
The mechanics will still use old oils and and old approach on those, which is likely a kiss of death. It already happened in the past, when turbos were introduced - which of course gave them bad name. Hopefully this time the manufacturers will educate both owners and mechanics that those new engines are not you father's V6 or V8. Will see.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
most cars now are either lifetime, or somewhere over 100K for anything like that.
Heck, If BMW thinks you only need to change your oil every 15K, why would they think you ever need to replace the trans fluid?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
plus, they do a nice multi-point inspection.
not sure yet what my wife's new car will be, but most likely not a turbo (unless we go with the 2.0T Hyundai). But, even the NA cars will still get taken to the dealer, though for us, that is at most every 6 months.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Chrysler did this, too, with "lifetime" being that specific point in time of premature failure.
I'm in agreement with your early change interval rule and practice it with my vehicles.
I think that's picking on someone without basis. I would suggest looking at Honda transmissions over the last 20 years if you want to analyze failure patterns. I have had many GM transmissions through 30 years and they have worked and lasted without failure.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2018 430i Gran Coupe
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Of course she may have already said so no fair if you know. I'm guessing some kind of American or Japanese truck or SUV although I have no reasonable rationale for that choice. The dash does not look like European design, however.
Gogiboy
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Man, you got that right about brake fluid having an affinity for water. It’s silicone oil so it WILL absorb moisture. I have personally pulled a vacuum on beakers of silicone oil that were being stirred and heated to remove air and residual moisture from it so that it could be used in filled instrument capillary lines.
Years ago I was told that doing this was much more involved than getting the air and moisture out. You had to be prepared for the transfer to the capillary lines right from the container that had the silicone oil that was “conditioned”. You can’t just pour it into the filling apparatus because it will absorb moisture aside from air being re-introduced into the silicone oil due to pouring it into another container. I knew about the air thing but I had to see this moisture phenomena thingy first hand. So, being a guy that had to see this for himself, the first time I did this, I pulled the plug on a test beaker then put it back and checked for moisture. Damn, the old coot was right; the moisture was now above the acceptable level for filling the capillary lines after just a few seconds of being open to the atmosphere of the room where this was being done. I did this 4 or 5 times just to be sure the test instruments were right. Ok, I ain’t going to doubt that guy again.
The first thing that came to mind when I saw this was ‘gee, my cars brake system uses silicone oil, what’s going on in there’? After that experiment, I make sure I flush my cars brake system at an interval that is no longer than 2 years. It’s usually done every year when I do my pre-safety inspection, which includes a brake inspection, for the PA required annual safety inspection. There is just too much of a chance that the moisture will cause rust/corrosion to the brake systems components. Replacing a wheel cylinder is not that bad but I darn sure don’t want to be replacing the ABS unit even at my DIY price. Having that done by a dealer/garage is enough to give us DIYers nightmares.
Brakes are the only thing that stop cars safely.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl