Stories from the Sales Frontlines

plekto

The thing is that Honda makes a soulless refrigerator. If you want to carry 7 people, get a proper SUV(2-3 year old Surburban for less money) or a minivan. If you only need to carry 6 in a pinch, get a full-sized sedan. Better gas mileage, better safety, and better handling in an accident(plus all the stability control and features).

A one year old Buick Lacrosse CXS with that Cadillac suspension and the 3.6VVT - it's an astounding piece of engineering. Basically it's a Buick CTS for a lot less money. Just FWD instead of RWD, and not stickshift. Expect to pay maybe $15-18K right now for a one year old certified model. Seats 6 in a pinch with the bench seat option. Way way *way* better than any crossover or micro suv.

If you want AWD, realize that the part-time AWD systems everyone uses are junk in real world situations - and get an Audi with Quattro, A Subaru, or Volvo XC70.(the only three full-time AWD systems in the U.S.)

If you want a SUV, realize that it's not a real SUV by any means.

The thing is that the CR-V and the RAV-4 and the rest are all cars looking for a place to exist. Compromise handling, compromise utility, compromise sytyling, and compromise gas mileage. It's as if someone sais "hey, let's build a car that's a bit of everything but is great at nothing!" You'll be much happier in the long run of you just go out and get something that really fits your needs.

geo9

SNAKE.......Just remembering the GREAT posts RRoyce aka
Terry always posted over on the RWTV thread here.
He always commented on the ROWS and double line auction
action on many hyundai or kia vehicles. Esp. the BIG
auction lines of the announced lemon or buy back korean
sleds that IF they sold went for pennies on the dollar.

Sure some dealers might hoodwink the non-Edmunds buyer
into paying top dollar. But for us in the know!

It was just a thought for Mark instead of paying full boat
$$$$ on a honda and let the dealer think hes doing him
a favor by selling him or anyone a vehicle.

I wonder if it will have 10 miles on it????????????

jlawrence01

The thing is that Honda makes a soulless refrigerator. If you want to carry 7 people, get a proper SUV(2-3 year old Surburban for less money) or a minivan.

Since most of the people that I know who have bought Odysseys are people who had been either GM owners or had had problems with a Chrysler minivan, maybe there is a market for RELIABLE vehicles in that segment.

What is the difference between a Suburban and an Odyssey ... other than 10 mpg and a less truck like ride.

snakeweasel

Since most of the people that I know who have bought Odysseys are people who had been either GM owners or had had problems with a Chrysler minivan, maybe there is a market for RELIABLE vehicles in that segment.

I had a Dodge Caravan and would get one again if I needed a van. The thing gave me no issues at all.

user777

some people claim honda makes appliance vehicles.

well, a vehicle should be an appliance in terms of reliability and easy functioning.

isellhondas

Define "more".

isellhondas

Your post makes more sense than snake's.

If Korean cars appeal to you, by all means, try to find one a year old. That way a person can take advantage of the terrible way they depreciate!

isellhondas

I don't disagree that a used domestic can be a lot of car for the money.

Advising someone to buy an Audi or a Volvo however, is something I sure wouldn't do. These are nothing but trouble as they age.

For cars that are "looking for a place to exist", CRV's and RAV4's aren't doing too badly it would seem since they are outselling the blazes out of the other cars you seem to favor!

mikefm58

It's as if someone sais "hey, let's build a car that's a bit of everything"

Bingo!!! That's what Toyota and Honda did. They're not for everyone, but for someone who wants just a little bit of the utility in SUV. I had a 99 CRV and it was the most reliable and inexpensive vehicle I've ever had.

plekto

If you want AWD, full-time is the only safe and decent choice. That pretty much leaves... nobody relaible, to be honest.

So it's simpler:

Need 7+ passengers? Van/minivan/big SUV(your choice entirely here)

Need AWD? Just get a SUV.

Need a SUV? Just get a SUV.

But if as I suspect, you want a 6 passenger vehicle with good handling, just get a 6 passenger sedan.

Check this out.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=216594931

Keep in mind that this has a 4 year/50K conprehensive and a 5/100K drivetrain warranty. Reliability issues aren't a concern. The car is fast, has zero throttle-lag(VVT to the rescue) and handles about as well as a base CTS(without the sport package, though). And it seats 6 people without being the size of a Crown Vic.(bench seat isn't that hard to find, actually, and makes the car feel much larger inside) Traction control, lower CG, and stability control all make it actually safer in bad weather than any micro SUV as well(other than the Subarus, but they aren't half as reliable as the Buicks)

I bet you could haggle to 18K quite easily.

dino001

That pretty much leaves... nobody relaible, to be honest.

Subaru, anyone? Of course not for everybody, but don't say there is no reliable AWD around. :mad:

And by the way - saying that Honday is an appliance and then pushing Buick as an exciting alternative is beyond funny.

psorter

Well, what fits most people needs are FWD or RWD station wagons, they don't compromise handling, utility or gas mileage, but they aren't cool and most car manufacturers don't make a single one.

Quite a few of my friends are buying Expeditions because Ford doesn't make a big wagon anymore, they hate it, they feel like they are driving a UPS truck, but they have no choice. And AWD is an unnecessary feature in any part of the country, no matter how often you tell yourself otherwise.

Fortunately the SUV's are, year by year, evolving back into station wagons.

corvette

Stabilitrak is only available on the highest-end model, and even then it's an extra-cost option. When a safety feature like that is optional, it's extremely difficult to find on the used market. And, getting the high-end model precludes you from getting the bench seat that you seem to be fond of.

snakeweasel

well, a vehicle should be an appliance in terms of reliability and easy functioning.

Easy Functioning? You should see our microwave. :sick:

snakeweasel

"More" - Noun, a greater quantity, number, or amount. something additional : an additional amount. Additional, further.

Time to invest in a dictionary.

snakeweasel

Your post makes more sense than snake's.

Of course you would say that, you have a vested interest in people paying more for less.

snakeweasel

And AWD is an unnecessary feature in any part of the country, no matter how often you tell yourself otherwise.

I have lived in places where AWD was absolutely needed on most of the roads at times. They would even broadcast warnings that unless you were on the main road or in town don't go on the roads unless you had 4WD.

Anyways I have a smaller wagon (an Elantra) and its been a very useful in hauling stuff. Very reliable too.

graphicguy

While I do agree, you can get by in the "sometimes" snow states with whatever form of traction control the manufacturers push, but if you're doing any sort of hauling, towing, etc....where there's wet pavement, AWD, prefereably 4WD, is a neccessity.

nj2pa2nc

we own a 05 hyundai elantra Gt with 52,000 miles on it with no problems. we plan to keep in for along time. Hyundais are known for their terrible resale but i think that is going to change for the better now that they are getting into leasing like honda. we had a 05 civic which we had problems with and luckily sold. we were very disappointed with it. we do love our acura tho but for the money the hyundai is just as good IMO. I do like reading your posts even tho they are bias towards hondas which from your name should be. I am glad you are loyal to the cars you sell.

snakeweasel

we plan to keep in for along time.

You should be able to. I have an '00 with 141K miles on it and its still running strong. Only had one thing go wrong and that was at about 120K miles. Mt daughter has an '02 pushing 100K and she has had no issues with it. My nice has what you have and '05 with around 50K on it with no issues.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.

isellhondas

I have a dictionary, thank you.

After reading some more of your posts, I realized you were talking about a Hyundai.

To each his own, I suppose.

I won't get into the resale part again.

nj2pa2nc

we had a 88 hyundai excel, bought new that had over 200,000 miles on it, with no problems-had most of the original equipment- unfortunately it was totaled by a red-light runner. My daughter had a 02 elantra. She was driving too fast and failed to negotiate a sharp turn causing her to hit a tree head-on. The car was totaled but she had no injuries. The cops were even amazed. The skid marks were at least l00+ ft so she definately was speeding. She now has a 04 elantra that has almost 70,000 hard miles with no problems. we would recommend them-very good cars

isellhondas

It's not that I think Hyudai builds a "bad" car. They have come a LONG way in recent years. I just think there are better cars out there and better choices.

When I have customers shopping for used cars and one of our Hyundais fits the budget better than a used Honda, I have no qualms in steering them that way.

There are worse choices for sure. I recently sold our next door neighbor a used Jetta. I tried my best to steer her in a different direction. I had her dad research VW's and he agreed with me. I showed her a couple of used Civics and even a nice Saturn but, nope, it HAD to be that "pretty blue" Volkswagen. It's been a year now and other then the hood release cable breaking for the second time, it's been OK. I did tell them that I didn't want to hear about it when it had troubles.

Unless the resale values improve on Korean cars, they will never be a good car to lease. Quite the contrary. In order to offer an attractive lease, the car has to have a high residual value in order to keep the lease payments attractive.

Things could someday change I suppose?

psorter

"They would even broadcast warnings that unless you were on the main road or in town don't go on the roads unless you had 4WD."

Broadcasting that you can't drive unless you have 4WD is ridiculous and irresponsible. So if I have 4WD and bald all seasons tires that's ok?

Broadcasts like that are the reason why you see so many SUV's in ditches along the highway. 4WD does not help you stop on snow/ice, or prevent you from sliding off into a ditch, not in the least.

The responsible thing to do is broadcast warnings that you need chains in those cases (mountainous regions), or studded snows in less severe cases. In the region I live we have a few roads that have signs that say only chains allowed during snowfall. If you have 4WD and all seasons you might get up some of these roads, but your going off a cliff going down.

AWD is not a replacement for chains/snows tires, no matter what the commercials are telling you, it's just common sense, you need tire traction to stop.

snakeweasel

Its not that rediculas and irresponsible. Since this area was not the best of roads under optimal conditions. Not only that but you were going further and further away from any emergency services. Many of these spots were miles away from the nearest thing and if you were in trouble out there you were alone. Four wheel drive was a necessity on those dirt and gravel roads with the freezing rain we got many times.

But if you have an issue with those warnings you can always contact the borough and the state, they were the ones issuing the warnings.

tidester

Time to invest in a dictionary.

<Groan!>

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

explorerx4

i know this post is perpetuating the not exactly 'on topic' posts, but tell your expedition friends to spend a few bucks on some decent tires. it will be a revelation.
otoh, you can't do anything about the size of the vehicle.

kiawah

Don't need a dictionary.....just use "Spell Check"...

shasta67

Broadcasting that you can't drive unless you have 4WD is ridiculous and irresponsible. So if I have 4WD and bald all seasons tires that's ok?

Well first off that would be illegal in most states. So the answer to your question is no.

AWD is not a replacement for chains/snows tires, no matter what the commercials are telling you, it's just common sense, you need tire traction to stop.

While there are times you need to have chains, 4WD and AWD drive can come in really handy sometimes. Chains are great but don't work well in conditions that are patchy ice or snow. Running them on pavement tears the hell out of everything. It sucks having to get out, get wet and cold, every time there is a little snow on the ground, so you can put on your chains. If you know how to drive a 4WD there is no reason you should end up off the road. Like you said it just takes a little common sense. Something that most of the city slicker SUV drivers don't seem to have when they encounter snow.

kamdog

Subaru, reliable? Not the one I owned. Had a 98 outback. Went through 2 clutches before 100K miles, as opposed to none in any other car. Every engine seal went. Fuel injector leak. Bolt holding the fan belt broke. My brother had a Forrester, similar problems. Best foul weather car I ever had, but build quality was so poor I would never buy one again. My CRV does OK in the snow, not as good as the outback in the rain either. No problems after 75,000 miles, at which time I had put over $3000 in repairs to the outback.

jmonroe

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.

Why would you even think of buying another one? How many times do you have to be told that Hyundai&#146;s have a horrible resale value? You should be glad when you bury yours and you can get out from under that false economy Hyundai product and buy a Honda. Then you will have a real machine with good resale value.

Then again, if I sold Honda&#146;s and was having my lunch eaten for the last 4 to 5 years by Hyundai I wouldn&#146;t like it either. :sick:

Sounds pretty much like whistling as you pass the grave yard if you asked me but then nobody did ask me. :P

jmonroe

neile457

But if as I suspect, you want a 6 passenger vehicle with good handling, just get a 6 passenger sedan.

Check this out.

It might help if this was a 6 passenger sedan, I guess it could be if someone set on the console :sick:

isellhondas

In defense of Subaru, your experiences are unusual.

plekto

Yeah, Buick is silly in how they only offer the top-end model in 5 seating.

OTOH, the base GM 3.8L V6 isn't a toad in the LaCrosse CXL. This is even less expensive(22-25K is common, new, depending on the rebates) and the 6 passenger seating is easy to find.

Fits 6, is the same size as a Accord/Camry/etc, and drives like a car.(the Lucerne is a boat without the high-end suspension option)

Me? I had to fit 6 people in my car only on long family trips with a pair of grandparents in tow.

boomchek

I know this is probably not the board for that discussion, but to relate it to car sales stories, every time winter comes around I get so many people coming in asking for AWD or 4WD vans, cars etc, and why Honda doesn't offer them (other than SUVs).

Most people do not understand the fact that AWD and 4WD systems will help you get up and going, and it helps if you have steep driveways, BUT they will not help you stop.

Most people don't take that into consideration, and for us we get about 1 week of snow a year, so I have to ask them if it's worth spending the extra bucks on a 4WD system for that one week when they will probably avoid driving in the first place.

As for the multiple seating, I always ask why they need it. Most people mention that it's for when they get out of town visitors about once every year or two.

So once again I tell them to get a car or a CRV instead of a van or Pilot, and with the money they save they could easily rent a car for their visitors and still be ahead in savings.

Multiple seating vehicles are good if you do have a large family that you transport regualrly, but not for the occasional visitors. Or if you need the space to haul stuff.

nj2pa2nc

my mother owns a 1998 Honda accord V-6 that has only 60,000 miles on it. my father bought the car for her new. He has since passed away so she does not want to get rid of it. something always seems to go wrong with it. the list is endless but she loves it and is willing to pay to get it fixed. our hyundais are more reliable. Oh yes I forgot IT'S A HONDA and is almost 10 years old

snakeweasel

Why would you even think of buying another one?

Because the one I currently have has been the most reliable car I have ever had.

How many times do you have to be told that Hyundai&#146;s have a horrible resale value?

Many times but read back about what I have said about resale value.

Then again, if I sold Honda&#146;s and was having my lunch eaten for the last 4 to 5 years by Hyundai I wouldn&#146;t like it either.

Thats why I pretty much ignore what any salesman says about the competition.

1racefan

boomchek...

with the Honda "real time" 4wd systems, I was under the assumption that since the extra 2 wheels were only powered, as needed, there wasn't that much of a sacrifice in MPG. When you look at Honda's website, for the Pilot it shows 18/24 (2wd) and 17/22 (4wd). For the CR-V, it states 23/30 (2wd) and 22/28 (4wd).

What I am getting at, is buying this type of 4wd system doesn't seem as wasteful as a full time 4wd, or AWD system where all 4 wheels are continuously getting some power. When we bought my wife's Element, we got the 4wd model since it was only a couple hundred dollars more than the deal we were being offered on the 2wd model. This may or may not pay for itself in resale, but, by going with the 4wd, we got the sunroof (have to get 4wd in order to get the sunroof in the Element).

I do agree with what you said about a customer buying a vehicle to seat 6 or 7, just for the 1 or 2 times per year when they will have guests. After all, one can get a pretty good week long rental rate on a mini van, or large SUV from the major rental companies.

shasta67

Most people do not understand the fact that AWD and 4WD systems will help you get up and going, and it helps if you have steep driveways, BUT they will not help you stop.

Most people don't take that into consideration, and for us we get about 1 week of snow a year, so I have to ask them if it's worth spending the extra bucks on a 4WD system for that one week when they will probably avoid driving in the first place.

I agree it will not help you stop but can really help with maintaining control. Really you should never be following so close to another car in the snow that stopping is a huge issue. Especially with AWD (which I have never owned) it is really nice when you hit the occasional icy patches.

I do agree with you that most people buy way more car than they really need. I have never owned a 2WD truck but then again I grew up in the mountains. Now I live in Southern California I would not get a 4WD just because there is little need and the price difference. Where I grew up in Northern California it was almost a necessity for 4 months a year. My parents are in their late 60's and wouldn't think of having a car that was not 4WD. Mom and Dad are not really able to put chains on anymore and if they need to get over the mountain it is a huge help.

isellhondas

This is because people overreact to things.

Here in seattle, it rarely snows but this year was a miserable exception. It'll probably be another five years before it snows again.

Still, it is better to have 4WD and not need it then to need it and not have it!

madmanmoo

Yawn. Curls up on sofa. Wonders when the stories will begin again. Blinks. Falls asleep.

-Moo

lokki

Hyundai's may be the greatest cars in the world, but they're going to continue to have lousy resale value for the indefinite future.

Why such a pessimistic future view for them? Well.... it's easy: Recall if you will that both GM and Ford are stepping away from the Rental Fleet business. The rational for this move is that the fleet car sales crush the resale value of their vehicles - is it not so said, eh?

Well the demand for rental fleet vehicles hasn't gone down. Hertz, et al, still has to get cars somewhere. Where is somewhere? From Hyundai.

Hyundai, which already have lousy resale values, aren't likely to sell that resale value improved by having the rental fleets dump tons of them into the used car market every year.

In fact, why would anyone buy a new one, when they could buy one a year old from a rental fleet? We know (from the evidence presented here ), that they'll last forever, so being a year old is no barrier to a happy car experience.

So it's clear: Hyundai's will continue to have the resale value of two day old bread.

Now let's resume our normally scheduled broadcast of stories. I'll start:

"A lady walked into a (Brand Name Here) dealership. Her two kids are wandering the sales floor. The boy, probably seven or eight, has taken a liking to the sound of slamming the rear driver's side door of a (model name here). Every time he does it he giggles. His sister, probably two and a half or three is wandering among the vehicles, with her pacifier in her mouth....jam all over her little dress, sticky hands touching every fender and door as she wobbles around. You are at your desk, cold calling, when she spies you and walks deliberately to up to you.

What's the first thing she says, and will she buy a car TODAY?

There... we're started - you guys take it from here. :shades:

mark156

Snakeweasel said :After about an hour, I called my salesman back and he said it was sold already! Talking about "you snooze, you lose"!!!

In a case like that it is wise to put down a deposit to hold the car.

But since you are looking at CR-V's have you thought about a Tucson? You can get one with AWD and a V-6 for about the same as you can get a CR-V with FWD and a 4 cylinder engine. So it would make sense to at least check them out.

Snake you are right, I should have put down a deposit. What made me wait was the fact that I originally wanted AWD and the one that I test drove was FWD... I lost. Anyway, I found one 350 miles away that is exactly the way that I want it with AWD.

Also, would never consider a Hyundai... just me, don't like'm.

Mark156

mark156

Isell said:
Your sister in law may be pulling your leg. There is only about 1500.00 of profit in these if sold for MSRP.

The NAVI models are few and far between and that beige is one of the least popular colors.

Despite what you might hear, MSRP is actually a great value for one of these.

Isell, it was my brother (SIL's husband) that I was talking to that told me about the discount. He said he got $1,200 off of MSRP. Also, he traded in a 2000 Nissan 4 door truck so that's where the cushion came in I'm sure.

I'm perfectly fine paying MSRP because I want the vehicle and I see it as a good value. I think the Borrego Beige is one of the best looking colors with the Ivory leather.... surprising that it's the least popular color, they are the most difficult to find! Mine is an EX-L with navi, AWD.

The purpose for the CR-V is that I will be pulling it behind my new motorhome. Borrego beige was the only color that would blend nicely with my color scheme.

The weight of the CR-V is good at 3,400 lbs and it can be towed with an automatic transmission.

Snake... just looked at my towing guide. The Hyundai Tucson and Santa Fe CANNOT be towed with an automatic transmission. SO, that eliminates that anyway even if I liked them.

Mark156

mazda6iguy

In defense of Subaru, your experiences are unusual.

My coworkers son bought a Subaru WRX (2002 I think). He said that his son had to put in two transmissions from just normal driving.

dino001

I have WRX. Didn't hear about trasmission problems. Admittedly, '02 was first year of this line and I heard they did have more problems then next years. But by the way - "normal driving" in WRX case can mean o lot of thing :P :shades:

isellhondas

Just "normal driving" ?

Yeah, a young guy in a WRX !

mazda6iguy

Just "normal driving" ?

Yeah, a young guy in a WRX !

That's what I think, "normal" driving. From what I know about him, his version of normal is probably 'high spirited'. But even so, isn't this car supposed to be able to take some high spirited driving? After all, it's roots are in rally cars :P

imidazol97

Isn't the Lucerne available in 6 seat capacity?

abraindrainer

I just checked a couple of no-haggle dealerships and they seem to be asking (slightly) under MSRP for the CRV. WA/OR dealers might be getting that but not elsewhere...

BTW: if these sell right off the truck, the dealerships make more than just the difference between MSRP and invoice!