to Chicago (some are owned by the manufacturer, some by the dealerships),
We serviced a couple of the vehicles for the Chicago show and they were owned by the manufacturer.
I know the sponsors of the Cincinnati show are the dealerships in the general area
The local dealers are also the sponsors of the shows in Detroit and Chicago. A lot of the dealerships associations place a lot of pressure on the OEMs to introduce new models at their shows.
They haven't been driven much, but the interiors and sometimes the exterirors, do show digns of wear.
I have not seen auto show cars offered at dealerships. However, when I lived in Dearborn, I had a couple friends at Ford tell me that their show cars were often sold to employees after the conclusion of the show season.
While they're not allowed to quote prices
The LAST thing that car shows need is to have a bunch of salesmen hawking their product. The show is an opportunity to look at the product in a pressure-free environment. For me, it is an opportunity to make a mental list of cars that I might be interested in buying down the road.
Having said that, I wish that you would see more PRODUCT MANAGERS and DESIGN ENGINEERS from the car manufacturers so that they can get some honest feedback.
Its interesting to hear about the auto show cars. At NAIAS (Detroit), they have industry days. Usually this entails OEMs walking around waxing poetic about their vehicle line up, while the suppliers run in and benchmark eachother's work in a particular vehicle.
Sometimes, I have noticed, this may entail rough treatment. I have gotten into vehicles and found most of the interior in varying degrees of disassembly (door cards removed, seats disassembled, etc).
I am pretty lucky, everything I need to see is exposed already. No assembly (or disassembly) required .
With Honda, the Car Show cars go to the dealers in the surrounding area. Anything that can come loose like gearshift knobs will be stolen if not removed. People SLAM doors, bounce up and down in the seats, scuff up the interiors, scratch the paint with belt buckles.
Once, when I was working a show, someone stole the DIPSTICK out of an Odyssey we had on display!
I no longer have the patience required to work a car show.
Having said that, I wish that you would see more PRODUCT MANAGERS and DESIGN ENGINEERS from the car manufacturers so that they can get some honest feedback.
j....couldn't agree more. The only time I saw any product managers at one of the car shows was a few years back when there were a couple of them from Ford I talked to right when the '05 Mustang was released. They were in Cincinnati, no less. I've never seen a design engineer at any of them.
Last month, I was talking to THE product manager of one of the domestic sedans that is new in the market. He really gave me a great presentation of the vehicle and the several trim levels.
I told him that he had a great design there.
"Would you buy it?", he asked. For my fleet yes, I would buy it. In fact, I have had several requests for the vehicle already. For my personal drive, no.
"Why not?"
Great styling, fun ride ... for the first 70k miles. Based on current product, plenty of electical problems after that. I want a vehicle that will make it to 150k without replacing the electronics.
In my 150k miles with my last domestic sedan, I had to replace 2 electrical components, the thing that manipulates the secondaries on the intake runner, and a fog light bulb (oh and the car speakers, but that might have been my fault).
THAT SPECIFIC model has had a consistent problem with electronics going out at around 70k miles. I am not speaking about all domestic sedans many of which do not have that problem.
I am not going to specify which model taht I am talking about.
If your state's title has a notary requirement (and I would assume most do), you may have a hard time pulling that off without the presence of everyone named on the title.
I am not going to specify which model taht I am talking about.
A domestic sedan with attractive styling that's fun to drive... I was thinking maybe the Fusion but I don't think it's been out long enough for you to have multiple examples with 70,000 miles! Guess we'll never know.
I think I read in a recent post of yours that you were hoping to purchase an Impala out of your fleet in a few months. Is it your opinion (based on what you have seen), that among the domestic sedan offerings that the GM sedans hold up better over time?
Is it your opinion (based on what you have seen), that among the domestic sedan offerings that the GM sedans hold up better over time?
That is MY opinion.
Advantages of the Impala:
1) Better gas mileage than Taurus and Intrepid. 2) Fewer repairs than the Taurus. 3) Larger than the Taurus and the Intrepid. 4) More comfortable (to me). 5) Nice layout. 6) Better resale off of lease.
Disadvantages:
1) Back seat less comfortable. 2) Boring interior. 3) Generally a hard sell to my fleet drivers who tend to flock to Chryslers. My wife's employer provides their employees a lot of choice - whatever color Impala they want.
Personally, I like the Fusion and the new Chrysler Sebring a lot. However, I do NOT have access to getting one at a good price (at this point).
I have generally had good luck with GM sedans (and most other vehicles) largely because I keep up with all the repairs (and have a great mechanic who loves to see how many miles we can get on a car).
j....just personal opinion, but I'm kind of surprised that your fleet drivers like Chrysler vehicles. Aside from the 300, I'm not a big fan of the rest of their cars (or trucks/jeeps/SUVs, for that matter).
Fusion seems to be a nice choice, but I've never driven one.
I think your leaning towards an Impala is a good choice, however. It's got a proven drivetrain. As best I can tell, they're reliable. I've driven a couple of them as rentals and there's not anything I could pinpoint as objectionable about them.
I've seen a couple of new Sebrings on the road. Never liked them before. Still don't like them....even with the new platform. From what I've read, they're destined for the rental fleets anyway. So, I'll probably get a ride in one eventually.
Interestingly, I saw an Interview with Bob Lutz. He as talking about some Pontiac. One of his comments struck me. He said that GM is trying to put vehicles out there that will lift it's retail sales, as opposed to fleet sales. Easier said than done, of course.
If it's any consolation, I'm sure they put it to good use. Probably need to replace the dipstick on their own Odyssey and didn't want to pay for a new one.
Probably need to replace the dipstick on their own Odyssey and didn't want to pay for a new one.
That could be but how in the hell do you loose a dipstick? I know, it could have been it was never replaced when the last oil change was done but I'm more inclined to believe it was a thief.
Some people will steal anything if it's not locked in place. It's actually a trophy for some weirdos (really just thiefs).
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
>>but I'm kind of surprised that your fleet drivers like Chrysler vehicles. Aside from the 300, I'm not a big fan of the rest of their cars (or trucks/jeeps/SUVs, for that matter). <<
In the last three year cycle, 75% of the drivers chose the Intrepid or the Concorde or 300M over GM, Ford, and Toyota vehicles. Again, not MY choice, but theirs.
Last year, we went to all Fords ... no one wanted to replace their vehicles. Moved to all Chryslers and everyone was lined up for a new vehicle. Personally, I don't get it ...
The current rent a car fleet darlings are hyundai and kia............
A couple of my friends who work for the major rental fleets have told me that the Elantra/Sonata were an upgrade over the Escorts/Taurus/Chevy Classics that they replaced in their rental fleets in terms of reliability.
my town just starting to replace their police fleet with chargers. anyone here knows that if you have to duck your head more when getting into charger than a crown vic?
the way they decked out the chargers are pretty cool.
GM, Ford and Chrysler are actively reducing fleet sales to rental companies. The large volume of used "rental rockets) lowers resale on used, and because of the low price on the used, it negatively effects new sales.
I believe Mustangs and Camaros are still being used by the Kentucky police. I believe I saw them stopping unfortunate violators outside Louisville last summer with them...
We have a small 'uppity' community that just added a half dozen H3's to their fleet. Can't imagine they'd be able to really catch anyone other than in the snow The rest of their fleet are crown vics.
California's central coast CHP had Volvo Turbos in their fleet, as well as BMW motorcycles, plus the usual cruisers and 5.0s. I think the Volvos got booted to DARE duty, but man, were those things sleepers in traffic.
California's central coast CHP had Volvo Turbos in their fleet, as well as BMW motorcycles, plus the usual cruisers and 5.0s. I think the Volvos got booted to DARE duty, but man, were those things sleepers in traffic.
1) Better gas mileage than Taurus and Intrepid. 2) Fewer repairs than the Taurus.
I rented (probably an 04) Impala couple of years ago and was somewhat impressed with the ride and VERY impressed with both in-town and highway mileage. The car probably had the venerable 3.4.
Does it make a difference (in YOUR opinion) whether the 3.4 or the 3.8 engine is used in the Impala in terms of reliability? Friends are looking for a good used midsizer here in Minneapolis.
The current rent a car fleet darlings are hundai (spl) and kia..........
Maybe. The Hertz lot in Tuscon, AZ had Camrys, Mazda6-s, Legacys, Sonatas, Tauri, etc. I was given a G6 and tried as I did, could not swap it for a Mazda or a Subaru.
My wife was averaging about 28 mpg in her '04 Impala vs 24 in her '02 Taurus (fleet cars).
As for the 3.4 vs. the 3.8, I don't have an opinion. My mechanic LIKES the 3.8L a lot for its reliability. We have had no problems with the 3.4L. Granted, remember that generally, I don't see cars (other than my personal drive) past 60k miles.
The cops got sneaky a few years ago and got a bunch of unmarked cars:
Early 90s GMC Sierra with a canopy that catches speeders
Early Caravans, Accords, Ford Contours!
The best one was an unmarked blue Subaru Impreza 2 door, which was used to clamp down on street racing. I don't think they use it anymore as everyone is aware of that car.
In North Vancouver (more affluent district) the cops were driving luxury cars donated by dealers (fully marked with Police insignia, and delaer's name). These included a VW Beetle, Jaguar S Type, Land Rover Dicovery, H2 and I think some BMW and MB models.
Honda also donated the use of some 2003 Civic SiRs (Si for you guys) hatchbacks for use in street racing education programs.
When these came back to us we could pick them up for a song as they all had less than 5000kms on the odo after 2 years of use. Most of these were just parked at various events.
hey jlawrence, a local Toyota dealership(Green Tree Toyota) is running a "Never Before Fleet Price Sale". Says you can buy any new car, truck, van etc... then at bottom of full page ad in small print,"Fleet prices include the following stock numbers....(has about 8 stock numbers)So, I'm assuming these fleet prices only apply to these 8 vehicles? Scam?
I haven't seen any on the show, don't get to watch TV that often. I had only seen them in their lot until this past Monday evening. We went for frozen custard, saw two of them sitting at the top of the off ramp, waiting for people to shoot the red light. They both 'had' someone on our way back
The ad states,"GTT sells cars to many of the largest companies in this area...when large companies buy hundreds of cars... you know they get the best possible price, commonly called "Fleet Price"."
I believe the implication, or assumption, would be that these cars would be sold at invoice or better... that was my assumption from what I have read about fleet sales before.
I believe the implication, or assumption, would be........
I'm sure you've heard the old saw about what happens when you assume something?
I'm sure 'fleet' price varies from day to day, fleet to fleet, purchaser to purchaser, and salesperson to sales person. At least 'invoice' has a figure allocated to it, however inaccurate that figure may be.
My guess is that 'fleet price' can mean whatever it's required to mean for any particular deal.
How is it the "bait and switch" when they identify the units that they will sell at that price?
If you go into a dealership looking to buy a new stripped down "BIG AD" mobile with manual door cranks, the smaller engine and a stick and end up nuying the same vehicle fully loaded, is that the dealer's fault??
Now if they NEVER had the unit in stock, then you are correct.
Your're right. I perhaps extended the "fine print" thing, when in big letters they announce some blowout sale, but they limit it to couple units in stock. They count on reader ignoring fine print, seeing only "fleet price" and learning "it's on this pink unit with green upholstery and no AC" so they move to something normal but hear "Oh - those ones we sell thousand above sticker".
The local dealers have been mailing out lots of special sale advertisements to homes. This one has a catch, I just don't figure it out.
It says 2007 HHR, $5000 cash, Dell computer, $1000 shopping spree, or $100 cash will be given if your lucky number matches the scratchoff on the front of the mailer. Guess what it does.
The fine print says chances of winning 41000 internet shopping spree is $134,996 out of 135,000. What's the catch on the $1000 shopping spree. They also say only the first 50 customers per day but it's only good on 2/26. Of course the flyer will be in our business mailbox and will have the same lucky number scratchoff...
What is the catch on the $1000 shopping spree? Why can't dealers just give out blankets, water cups, tool sets???
Just flew into Orlando then to West Palm and back to NY out of Daytona (darn weather up north!) Had lots of time to eyeball the rental lots.............. ROWS of Hundais (spl again). The brand X rental cos. had kias !
Hertz collection area had some NICE rides to rent tho !
'Buying in bulk puts you in a better position to negotiate a discount' would be a more accurate way to put it.
However, in regard to your original post, it would be reasonable to expect that the itemized vehicles were being sold at some discount in relation to MSRP. If when you enquire what that price is it turns out to be higher than invoice, it doesn't mean it's a scam. It just means that the dealer is trying to get the best price possible and you need to start negotiating.
As you say, it's a cloudy situation........until someone comes out with a dollar amount.
Comments
We serviced a couple of the vehicles for the Chicago show and they were owned by the manufacturer.
I know the sponsors of the Cincinnati show are the dealerships in the general area
The local dealers are also the sponsors of the shows in Detroit and Chicago. A lot of the dealerships associations place a lot of pressure on the OEMs to introduce new models at their shows.
They haven't been driven much, but the interiors and sometimes the exterirors, do show digns of wear.
I have not seen auto show cars offered at dealerships. However, when I lived in Dearborn, I had a couple friends at Ford tell me that their show cars were often sold to employees after the conclusion of the show season.
While they're not allowed to quote prices
The LAST thing that car shows need is to have a bunch of salesmen hawking their product. The show is an opportunity to look at the product in a pressure-free environment. For me, it is an opportunity to make a mental list of cars that I might be interested in buying down the road.
Having said that, I wish that you would see more PRODUCT MANAGERS and DESIGN ENGINEERS from the car manufacturers so that they can get some honest feedback.
Sometimes, I have noticed, this may entail rough treatment. I have gotten into vehicles and found most of the interior in varying degrees of disassembly (door cards removed, seats disassembled, etc).
I am pretty lucky, everything I need to see is exposed already. No assembly (or disassembly) required
Once, when I was working a show, someone stole the DIPSTICK out of an Odyssey we had on display!
I no longer have the patience required to work a car show.
j....couldn't agree more. The only time I saw any product managers at one of the car shows was a few years back when there were a couple of them from Ford I talked to right when the '05 Mustang was released. They were in Cincinnati, no less. I've never seen a design engineer at any of them.
I told him that he had a great design there.
"Would you buy it?", he asked. For my fleet yes, I would buy it. In fact, I have had several requests for the vehicle already. For my personal drive, no.
"Why not?"
Great styling, fun ride ... for the first 70k miles. Based on current product, plenty of electical problems after that. I want a vehicle that will make it to 150k without replacing the electronics.
Granted, my opinion is not the norm.
I am not going to specify which model taht I am talking about.
A domestic sedan with attractive styling that's fun to drive... I was thinking maybe the Fusion but I don't think it's been out long enough for you to have multiple examples with 70,000 miles! Guess we'll never know.
I think I read in a recent post of yours that you were hoping to purchase an Impala out of your fleet in a few months. Is it your opinion (based on what you have seen), that among the domestic sedan offerings that the GM sedans hold up better over time?
That is MY opinion.
Advantages of the Impala:
1) Better gas mileage than Taurus and Intrepid.
2) Fewer repairs than the Taurus.
3) Larger than the Taurus and the Intrepid.
4) More comfortable (to me).
5) Nice layout.
6) Better resale off of lease.
Disadvantages:
1) Back seat less comfortable.
2) Boring interior.
3) Generally a hard sell to my fleet drivers who tend to flock to Chryslers. My wife's employer provides their employees a lot of choice - whatever color Impala they want.
Personally, I like the Fusion and the new Chrysler Sebring a lot. However, I do NOT have access to getting one at a good price (at this point).
I have generally had good luck with GM sedans (and most other vehicles) largely because I keep up with all the repairs (and have a great mechanic who loves to see how many miles we can get on a car).
Fusion seems to be a nice choice, but I've never driven one.
I think your leaning towards an Impala is a good choice, however. It's got a proven drivetrain. As best I can tell, they're reliable. I've driven a couple of them as rentals and there's not anything I could pinpoint as objectionable about them.
I've seen a couple of new Sebrings on the road. Never liked them before. Still don't like them....even with the new platform. From what I've read, they're destined for the rental fleets anyway. So, I'll probably get a ride in one eventually.
Interestingly, I saw an Interview with Bob Lutz. He as talking about some Pontiac. One of his comments struck me. He said that GM is trying to put vehicles out there that will lift it's retail sales, as opposed to fleet sales. Easier said than done, of course.
and kia............ :sick:
That could be but how in the hell do you loose a dipstick? I know, it could have been it was never replaced when the last oil change was done but I'm more inclined to believe it was a thief.
Some people will steal anything if it's not locked in place. It's actually a trophy for some weirdos (really just thiefs).
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Someone wanted somthing to go home with.
I just wonder what they did with it, stuck it down their pants leg?
In the last three year cycle, 75% of the drivers chose the Intrepid or the Concorde or 300M over GM, Ford, and Toyota vehicles. Again, not MY choice, but theirs.
Last year, we went to all Fords ... no one wanted to replace their vehicles. Moved to all Chryslers and everyone was lined up for a new vehicle. Personally, I don't get it ...
and kia............
A couple of my friends who work for the major rental fleets have told me that the Elantra/Sonata were an upgrade over the Escorts/Taurus/Chevy Classics that they replaced in their rental fleets in terms of reliability.
But they don't want the Kias.
I miss the days of the early 90's Mustang LX 5.0's and mid 90's Camaro Z28's being used by our highway patrol.
the way they decked out the chargers are pretty cool.
Or they are designating special models - Taurus or Chevy Classics - that are sold ONLY to rental fleets.
Do realize that the OEMs would PREFER to dump left-over inventory than sit on a 100+ day inventory.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Also, remember when Aspen used to use Saabs as their police vehicles?
I think the Volvos got booted to DARE duty, but man, were those things sleepers in traffic.
I think the Volvos got booted to DARE duty, but man, were those things sleepers in traffic.
Yup.
AZ DPS had some Volvo S70 T5's as well.
Hmmm, I thought so too, but he's talking about VOLVOS.
I can't imagine any self respecting drug dealer driving a Volvo!
The visual image of a drug dealer's pimped out Volvo is starting to make me quiver.... eweeeeh
Stealth brother, stealth....Maybe the dealer is trying to not scream out to law enforcement that he is a drug dealer???
Advantages of the Impala:
1) Better gas mileage than Taurus and Intrepid.
2) Fewer repairs than the Taurus.
I rented (probably an 04) Impala couple of years ago and was somewhat impressed with the ride and VERY impressed with both in-town and highway mileage. The car probably had the venerable 3.4.
Does it make a difference (in YOUR opinion) whether the 3.4 or the 3.8 engine is used in the Impala in terms of reliability? Friends are looking for a good used midsizer here in Minneapolis.
and kia..........
Maybe. The Hertz lot in Tuscon, AZ had Camrys, Mazda6-s, Legacys, Sonatas, Tauri, etc. I was given a G6 and tried as I did, could not swap it for a Mazda or a Subaru.
As for the 3.4 vs. the 3.8, I don't have an opinion. My mechanic LIKES the 3.8L a lot for its reliability. We have had no problems with the 3.4L. Granted, remember that generally, I don't see cars (other than my personal drive) past 60k miles.
Early 90s GMC Sierra with a canopy that catches speeders
Early Caravans, Accords, Ford Contours!
The best one was an unmarked blue Subaru Impreza 2 door, which was used to clamp down on street racing. I don't think they use it anymore as everyone is aware of that car.
In North Vancouver (more affluent district) the cops were driving luxury cars donated by dealers (fully marked with Police insignia, and delaer's name). These included a VW Beetle, Jaguar S Type, Land Rover Dicovery, H2
and I think some BMW and MB models.
Honda also donated the use of some 2003 Civic SiRs (Si for you guys) hatchbacks for use in street racing education programs.
When these came back to us we could pick them up for a song as they all had less than 5000kms on the odo after 2 years of use. Most of these were just parked at various events.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I believe the implication, or assumption, would be that these cars would be sold at invoice or better... that was my assumption from what I have read about fleet sales before.
I'm sure you've heard the old saw about what happens when you assume something?
I'm sure 'fleet' price varies from day to day, fleet to fleet, purchaser to purchaser, and salesperson to sales person. At least 'invoice' has a figure allocated to it, however inaccurate that figure may be.
My guess is that 'fleet price' can mean whatever it's required to mean for any particular deal.
You buy in bulk you get a discount. Isn't that how Sam and JohnBoy Walton got rich?
If you go into a dealership looking to buy a new stripped down "BIG AD" mobile with manual door cranks, the smaller engine and a stick and end up nuying the same vehicle fully loaded, is that the dealer's fault??
Now if they NEVER had the unit in stock, then you are correct.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It says 2007 HHR, $5000 cash, Dell computer, $1000 shopping spree, or $100 cash will be given if your lucky number matches the scratchoff on the front of the mailer. Guess what it does.
The fine print says chances of winning 41000 internet shopping spree is $134,996 out of 135,000. What's the catch on the $1000 shopping spree. They also say only the first 50 customers per day but it's only good on 2/26. Of course the flyer will be in our business mailbox and will have the same lucky number scratchoff...
What is the catch on the $1000 shopping spree? Why can't dealers just give out blankets, water cups, tool sets???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
out of Daytona (darn weather up north!)
Had lots of time to eyeball the rental lots..............
ROWS of Hundais (spl again). The brand X rental cos. had
kias !
Hertz collection area had some NICE rides to rent tho !
'Buying in bulk puts you in a better position to negotiate a discount' would be a more accurate way to put it.
However, in regard to your original post, it would be reasonable to expect that the itemized vehicles were being sold at some discount in relation to MSRP. If when you enquire what that price is it turns out to be higher than invoice, it doesn't mean it's a scam. It just means that the dealer is trying to get the best price possible and you need to start negotiating.
As you say, it's a cloudy situation........until someone comes out with a dollar amount.