That is not just banking. Most businesses I've dealt with treat customer loyalty as a permission to charge higher price and be less attentive. It is almost the reciprocal - the more they feel the customer is captive, the less they care about performance and the more they think their product/service is worth without actually adding anything to it. Then of course they act all hurt and surprised when you tell them you chose somebody else. "but I thought you liked us ...", "Isn't the relationship worth anything to you...?". Well, I like you, and the relationship was worth something to me, but it seems it was not anything to YOU, mr. Existing Business. To be fair, that's not always the case, I also experienced better treatment as a long-term existing customer, but it is increasingly rare. So why shouldn't I chase proverbial 50 bucks, if the other side does exactly the same?
So, you make a huge political statement and then whine about the forum being political ?
Thanks Houdini...you saved me from looking up Mike's post to see what this was referring to. We've had about 50 car posts in a row and no political posts, so must be too many meds!
Dealer trading is the lifeblood of the car business -
Just out of curiosity, does the dealer giving up the car get anything at all for their trouble? Do they even get credit for moving a car...may add to monthly quota?
Does the selling dealer absorb the transportation fee?
I once test drove a 95 Jeep. Got a lease price and I was ready to buy. Then got a much lower price at another dealer. That dealer ordered the Jeep from the first dealer. I did call the first guy and said I was sorry but I got it from another dealer. I imagine he knew where that Jeep was going.
#91692 of 91700 Re: Thank you [abacomike] by sandman_6472 May 18, 2013 (10:38 am) Replying to: abacomike (Mar 12, 2013 10:08 am)
You can't possibly blame this guy for the situation right now...that's just STUPID!!! Considering the right is doing everything they can and hurting us, the middle class people! Last time I looked, the president of the United States doesn't have all the power you think he does. Personally, I like this guy...the economy is doing better, my investments are doing great and folks are out their with increased spending confidence! I hate all this political [non-permissible content removed]...it really has ruined this forum for me. Time for a break as talking about cars seems to have disappeared!
Later all!
I responded to this from sandman. What a nasty post - calling me stupid - not nice - and after two months! Why?
Since you shopped that price, did you at least call the first store and give them a chance to match the otehr guy's price
I didn't, and I will explain why, though you may not agree with the way it happened, but, i try to be as fair and ethical as I can be in every situation.
I really was ready to buy from the first salesman, he was good and he let us test drive the car on our own. He came up with a lease price that seemed to be pretty good at the time...Chrysler had 30 month leases and the buy backs were very reasonable. I did ask if he could lower the price by $10 a month, just testing....he said no.
Then, I was looking through my AAA magazine and I saw an ad that said, get the best deal you can on any car you like, then call us and we will give you a dealer with an even lower price. I went to the closest dealer they gave me, and within a few minutes they gave me a deal significantly less.
I think at that point I was obligated morally and ethically to go with the 2nd dealer...that was the way the program worked. In some situations I would give the first dealer a call back to match....but, in this case this was the way the program worked.......it would defeat the purpose to go back to the original guy and ask him to match...besides, he got his chance really.
I did feel obligated to tell him he was an excellent salesman, but, the there was just too big of a difference. Money was tight then, I was getting unemployment insurance and just starting my business. I believe it was about $22 a month difference in monthly payments, but the buy back was about $800, so close to $1500 total difference.
I know what you would like to happen, but, no, I would do it the same if I was to do it again. The first dealer is in a high income area, the 2nd dealer in a much lower income area, I think that was a factor too.
Thanks for clearing up what happens in a dealer trade. I guess in the end it works to every ones advantage to trade cars - though, it must be upsetting at times.
That was one stupid dealer to allow that Jeep to be traded especially when they had someone "on" it!
Maybe in 1995 they really didn't catch on. It felt like maybe they couldn't lock it in. Also, that was quite a while ago and though we wrote it up I don't know if we even mentioned color with the first dealer. So, the second dealer may have scooped the car without the first dealer knowing it was for me. I think I looked at the red model at the first dealer, so I knew it was there, but I don't think the first dealer knew that was the color I wanted.
isell....just a very general observation, but I've noticed the premium lux dealers seem more than happy to do dealer trades to get the color/model/options combo I would want.
Could it be partly to the fact that there's less dealerships to begin with, so they have a more cooperative approach rather than seeing each other as competitors?
verdugo...you're probably right. The fewer the amount of dealers, the more they're forced to cooperate.
Just looking at who I've dealt with over the past 10 years....there are only 2 Acura dealers, 2 Audi dealers, 2 Lexus dealers (although owned by the same person), 2 BMW dealers.
On the other hand, there are 5 Honda dealers, 5 Toyota dealers...probably at least as many Ford dealers.
Just noticing, Lincoln dealers around here are shrivelling up like a raison.
Off hand I can't think of ANY Mazda since the early Miatas that have been in especially high demand but I could be wrong I suppose.
The 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 was a hot seller. The local idiot Mazda dealers all wanted thousands over MSRP- and wouldn't give a test drive without a signed buyers offer and a deposit. I ended up buying from a dealer in Cincinnati(@125 miles away). I was offered a test drive and they found the car I wanted in Cleveland and worked out a dealer trade that resulted in my car being flatbedded to Cinci at no added charge.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Just noticing, Lincoln dealers around here are shrivelling up like a raison
Had a ride in a 2 year old MKZ and it seemed to be about the same as the owners previous car, a Fusion. Why pay a premium price for a standard car, especially when Cadillac has some exciting new models.
Also, makes me think, saw an ad for the 2014 Impala. It is supposed to be greatly improved, but, it just seems pretty generic. They tried to renew it with some bolder lines, but, looks like same old same old to me. Also, the ad shows more mature people watching a new Impala at what appears to be a country club, and the music is Frank Sinatras Take me to the Moon...not exactly aiming this car for the younger crowd.
The new Impala is based off the LaCrosse and Caddy XTS platform. This is a much better performing car than the rental car fodder current Impala. I recently checked it out on Chevy's site and it looks impressive to me. I was able to option it out over 40K. It included a few things my fully optioned LaCrosse doesn't have.
Oh, it's "Fly Me to the Moon" Frank plays to all ages. (At least to Italians in Jersey! )
This is what Edmunds said about the 2007 Mazdaspeed 3, it might explain why there was a shortage, especially the performance combined with the fact only 5000 were available. Pros
Immense torque, superb balance of handling and ride comfort, semi-sleeper styling, top-notch build and materials quality, hatchback utility. Cons
Vague shifter action, tight rear legroom for taller passengers, only 5,000 available in the U.S.
My Mazda 5 rental is a good car for someone who needs basic transportation and has 3 or 4 kids. There is a backseat and then a seat behind that. Fair amount of seating for up to 4 passengers. I also like the fact the remote locks the doors and there are no beeps or extra noise, just a small clunk noise. It would also be ideal for a little city car for picking up groceries and just for getting around. Easy to park...just not much fun.
I don't think you did anything "wrong". You were just being a typical customer. Before I was in the business, I probably would have done the same thing.
It was the dealer's fault for "letting you out" wrong. Before a customer leaves, saying the right words means everything. If a salesperson fails to do this there is probably a 90% chance he will never see that person again.
I would have said..." Mr. Driver, I don't know if I can get my boss to shave another 10.00 off those payments, do we have a deal?"
If you waffled or wouldn't commit to that I would have said.." I'm on your side here (and I would be)..heck, I'll even ask for another 30.00 less a month"
If you agreed to the 30.00 I would write that up..." Will buy and drive home NOW with that amount and have you sign it.
When it was rejected I would cme back and say.." I think we both knew that wouldn't work but I tried...is there a number you would agree to and I'll try again"
If I had a solid commitment at SOME number I could usually make a deal work.
A lot of Sales Managers will agree to a skinny deal if they know they have a committed buyer and a salesperson who is trying to make a deal happen.
That store simply let you out wrong.
" You don't count the BE-BACKS you count the GREENBACKS"
I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you are a savvy buyer there is little to no need to go to multiple dealers. Know the market for both the new car and the trade and simply "play ball". Heck you could do most of it over the phone if you've already test drove it.
Am I correct in saying that for all except maybe the "hottest" models, as long as there is a little profit the dealer will jump on the sale?
I know when I got the Lacrosse the selling price was under invoice, the MF and residual were using the published numbers, and no "extras" so somewhere that dealer made a buck or he wouldn't have sold it to me. It also was mid month so I doubt he was chasing a bonus.
In a lot (most?) modern cars that is a customizable setting.
My 2000 Jeep Cherokee had a loud beep from the horn I think...it actually scared people who were walking by it.
I eventually had it taken out. I didn't think it was programmable because in their words, "They thought they could remove it". That made it sound like it was something they had to look into.
There's no need for a loud noise...people should have enough energy that they can turn their heads and watch the lights to flash.
If I had a solid commitment at SOME number I could usually make a deal work
In sales, and especially car sales your chances of selling a car must go down a huge amount once a potential customer leaves without buying. Like you said, I gave them a chance to come down, but they said that was a firm price.
When I got the AAA price and it was considerably less I would have been a moron to take the higher price just to be loyal or a nice guy. I don't think I would have bought from the second dealer if the price was $10 more, but if it is significantly more I can justify it pretty easily - they weren't acting in my best interest, so I will have to act in my own best interest.
There was a $1500 difference, so I think some dealers just accept they can make more profit from the cars they do sell, and if they only sell 1/2 the cars they still come out ahead. Just a different business model - you can make a profit on high margin, or you can do it based on volume. I much prefer the 2nd method, as a business owner and as a customer.
suppose they HAD been willing to come down 10.00/mo.?
Would you have bought that day or still shopped that number?
I would doubt that he can accurately answer that question at this late date. If he’s anything like me, then emotions do play a part. You can be as logical as you want, you can crunch the numbers in a spreadsheet, you can read online reviews and compare the specs until your head spins, but a lot of it will still come down to how you feel at that moment.
The biggest problem I have with the dealers is how crooked most of them are. (Please note that I said “most”, not “all”). In years past, I tended to buy based on newspaper ads. Walk into the dealership with their full page ad in hand, and tell the salesman, “I want to see THAT car (or truck), and if I like it, I’ll take it home.” I purchase a 1989 Ford F150, a 1990 Ford Mustang, a 1993 Chevy custom van, a 1995 Dodge Lancer (turbo), a 1998 Ford F250, a 2000 Ford F150, a 2000 Ford F250 (diesel), a 2005 Mazda Tribute, a 2008 Volkswagen Passat, and a 2011 Chevy Silverado Crew Cab. Every single one was purchased from a large dealership ad in the Houston Chronicle.
But those days are gone, or so it would seem. So now you have to negotiate, and the dealers seem to be every bit as crooked as ever. My latest round, I had been to the dealership, looked, driven, talked, argued, and left ($500 apart). Two days later, the salesman calls and emails, saying he will accept my offer for $500 less. But when I show up to sign the papers, it’s “Oh, we made a mistake, and it’s $750 more.” Then, “Okay, we’ll split the difference.” And then finally, as I’m leaving, “Okay, we will honor the deal we made earlier.” And then, when I go to the finance office to sign the papers, they have slipped an additional $270 in the bottom line. “Oh, I’m sorry, an error in my math. Let me correct that and reprint the forms.”
This is why most people HATE, absolutely HATE, buying new cars. If the factory took over the dealerships, and sold cars to everyone at the same price, clearly listed on each unit, the same way Walmart sells, I expect they would move a lot more cars.
So, I'm curious now....suppose they HAD been willing to come down 10.00/mo.?
This is hard to explain, but I had trouble making a large purchase on the spur of the moment. Especially at that time, when money was pretty tight. I wasn't holding out to try to get $10 off, I just wanted to think it over. It was a big step for me at the time, I was collecting unemployment insurance, starting a new business, and the payments were about $325 a month.
They already said they wouldn't lower the price. I didn't even plan on shopping around. I just remembered the AAA ad and thought I would give it a shot, expecting there to be a slight difference in price, probably not enough to actually switch dealers at that point.
But, when I went in, and the price was significantly lower, and it only took 15 minutes to give me that price, it confirmed for me that this must be a good price....and I just wanted the Jeep for that price, I was pretty certain I wouldn't do better.
But, if I hadn't called and got an AAA dealer, I wouldn't have shopped around, I would have bought the car from the first salesman - I liked him and trusted him.
When I bought my 2nd Jeep 5 years later, I went in with an ad from another dealer offering new Jeeps for what I thought was a really low price. I asked the salesman if he could match the clearance price...thinking if I can get a new Jeep for that price I would buy it for sure...by then I could easily afford it.
He said, not only can I match it, I can do quite a bit better! So, I think it really ended up as well as it could for me.
Someone once told me the easiest person to sell to is a salesperson (which I was and have mostly ever been), because they can't play games with other salespeople - they know what it is like. I really try to be as fair as I can to salespeople, because I like to be treated fairly.
Next post I'll remind you about buying my wife's Audi......
I explained before how we set out to buy a 328 in the morning, and I didn't like what they were offering for the trade, so decided to stop at an Audi dealer on the way home.
The salesman was a young guy, but they were so busy that day he was selling new cars even though he was the used car salesman.
He was the best salesman. Easy going, understood what we wanted. He was enthusiastic about Audis and liked the dealership. We tried out the cars and liked it better than the 328. He told us he would give us to another salesman because he was leaving the dealership the next morning because he wanted to look after his aging parents.
He gave us exactly what I wanted for our trade in....he gave me the number, I didn't tell him. Then he matched the 4% discount bmw would have given us. He said we could think about it the following week and he would give us another salesperson to work with. We said we wanted to buy the car from him, we'll buy it on the spot. We bought the car at 5 p.m. on a Saturday just at closing time.
I value a good honest salesman and will go out of my way to work with them. I think the Jeep was just a fluke that I remembered the AAA pricing and I checked out the 2nd dealer...and it was much less. I did apologize to the first salesman, called him and told him what I paid for my new Jeep.
My question to you is...should I have called him back or just have left it? I think I owed him the courtesy of calling back, but it isn't nice having to do that.
but a lot of it will still come down to how you feel at that moment.
That is basically true. I know though, the big difference was I did remember the AAA ad that said, find the best price you can, call us, we will give you a dealer who will give you the lowest price possible. I don't think AAA does that anymore.
The other factor like I explained was I did want to think it over, it was a big purchase and decision for me at the time. But, I think I would have bought from the first dealer at the time....I thought their price seemed in the range and was actually lower than I expected......those were the glory days for leasing a vehicle.
I think you are correct that there is a fair bit of dishonesty in the car selling business. Occasionally, you get a a good salesperson like our Audi guy. Even then you have to be careful, because the 2nd time they might take advantage, so you have to be prepared before going. I have more bad experiences than good basically...just have to keep one step ahead.
my BIL recently bought a slightly used Cobra (don't call it a kit car!). From a dealer in LA that specializes in these (he lives in NY). Met the guy at B-J auction in AZ back in January, and bought the car from pictures, etc. Eventually arrived by truck from CA. Funny part of the story is the original buy was in Maine. He sold it to the dealer in CA, so it was shipped all the way out there then sent back to NY. And the same driver remembered picking it up, so some dude drove it cross country, twice.
anyway, the sale worked out, but then the state of NY and their DMV got involved. It took him about 3 months before he could finally drive it, and he had to haul it 2 times to different facilities to look at. then multiple trips to the DMV office. by the end, he had the direct line # for the guy in Albany that managed custom car registrations. Seemed to be really Kafkaesque by the end. But, worked out, because it finally has a NY approved VIN, stickers, and plates.
Agree, but this is a different animal from the previous generation Impala. In an earlier post I mentioned that the Impala was so upscale that I thought it belonged in the Cadillac or Buick line up. Nonetheless, the new Impala is a worthy candidate as the Chevy flagship sedan.
Like the new Avalon, the 2014 Impala will not be part of fleet sales but instead the 2013 will carry over for the fleet and rental markets.
Furthermore, I read yesterday the average transaction price of a new car is now $31K. The new Impala is way above average and a well equipped 2LT model should be in the $36K range.
Try to take an extended test drive in one of those F-150's. It is a very large vehicle. A friend of mine bought one and only kept it about 6 months. Nothing wrong with the truck but said it was just too big to be practical for him. Hard to park, garage, and just get around in etc. He traded it for a new Explorer.
tjc...couldn't agree more with you on buying a car. I think most of us in this thread have bought (and sold) so many cars in the past, we pretty much know what it takes to buy a car. As you say, looking at demand, stock levels, looking on line, local newspaper ads....I think you get a pretty good idea what a vehicle will sell for.
Now, the dealerships are in the business to bump up from that "bottom line" sell price. But again, I think most here know those games, too.
As isellhondas used to say, it's incredible what some people will put themselves through to buy a car....most of it unnecessary. Saw this over in the Accord forums a couple of months ago before my sister landed on the Acura TL.
mako...my best friend just bought a Platimun F150. Don't know the difference between it and the King Ranch, but he sure has been bemoaning his MPG. I think he has the V6 turbo, which he says averages about 13MPG-14MPG. They are big and heavy, so don't know how much he can do about it.
I will say, they are very nice inside. But, unless you're towing or hauling a lot, I can't think of a reason to have one, as they are hard to park and maneuver. I didn't realize they could get that pricey, either.
Also I'm making rear camera a must have since tailgate blocks view
That's an option that came with a package on my 535 and my wife's 04.
The rental Mazda 5 doesn't have one, but rear view is pretty good.
Still, a rear camera is a must, you know exactly where your rear bumper is and you can see everything going on behind you. They are inexpensive and worth every penny.
Not sure how those after market cameras would be though.
I had the exact same experience as RB in the spring of 2007. The dealer I went to wouldn't budge off of MSRP, which wasn't a problem for me. What really bugged me was their complete disinterest in letting me drive the one on the lot as I had made an internet appointment to do so. In the end, unlike RB, I bought the weak sister, regular 3 hatch, which has proven to be an excellent vehicle despite its propensity for attracting hail (doesn't help that I live in OK) and other drivers to smack it (twice).
I can understand filtering out joy riders, but who makes an appointment to travel 55 miles just to waste a salesman' time? The car only stickered at $23K so it wasn't like some exotic.
"This is why most people HATE, absolutely HATE, buying new cars. If the factory took over the dealerships, and sold cars to everyone at the same price, clearly listed on each unit, the same way Walmart sells, I expect they would move a lot more cars."
Don't know if you saw this, but your salvation has arisen and you can now avoid this vicious cycle by buying a Tesla.
I see that their business model calls for stores where you basically can test drive, but must order--at full MSRP--using the store or internet. Servicing is done elsewhere. Cars at the store are limited to one or two for test drives and are not for sale. As the cars are selling well, the company owned stores are not pressuring buyers, not even asking for phone numbers or calling back customers. According to the article I read, their approach is causing paroxysms of fear in places like Texas and NC where dealer groups--with the support of NADA--are battling to prevent the cars from being sold or even ordered.
I'm not advocating the Tesla approach, merely repeating that it is out there for those who wish to avoid the adversarial dance at the dealership, but it comes at a steep price. Then again, you could just test drive cars, figure out what you want, return home and then work with the dealership's internet sales to get a written price for a unit on the lot. Another option is one of those buying services. Don't Costco and Trucar offer them?
Best I can tell is that the current sales paradigm has little to do with how much gets sold, but has everything to do with who sells it.
You could also spend $700 for a company highlighted by Edmunds to do all the negotiating including the finance doc and mop and glo fees. They say they can save more than the fee. If you HATE to car shop -- sounds like an option.
Another option is one of those buying services. Don't Costco and Trucar offer them?
Yes Costco has a buying service, sort of. You provide your name, phone number, email, and Costco card number along with your zip code.
In no time you are bombarded by hounds of dealers with annoying phone calls. The prices offered are below MSRP but perhaps not better than what you could negotiate on your own. And by the way, the program is not available for certain brands.
They are playing games with the trade difference. Bottom line, an F-150 in the King Ranch/Platinum/Limited range should get you a minimum of 10K off MSRP in today's market and with current incentives. This should be your starting point, and then you can talk trade for the Mustang.
I posted here in March when I purchased my King Ranch for $10,243 off MSRP.
It is a huge vehicle, largest I've ever owned and parking can be a challenge. However, for what it is I love the truck. Put a Borla exhaust on it this weekend so now it sounds like it's supposed to! And today I towed my boat with it for the first time and the truck was just as impressive as I expected.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
Fixed price doesn't work, unless every dealer in the area does it. The store that is fixed will get beat by $100 every time. What about the trade? There is no way to fix price that, so there is still negotiation to be done.
My store was a Costco store and we quickly found out that the deeply discounted Costco price STILL wasn't enough for most shoppers.
They would test drive the cars, we would sit down with them according to Costco's instructions and go over the pricing.
It wasn't often that the shopper would say.." Gee, that sounds great and what a hassel free experience this has been" Let's write it up!
Nope, they would usually write the price down, smile and say " Sounds good, I'll get back to you" Or....Can't you do any better"?
Sure they would! They would take that number and shop it everywhere in their frantic attempt to "save" another hundred dollars.
So, again we had to "let them out right"
I would tell them..." Now, according to our agreement with Costco, this is the MOST we can charge you for this car. If you want ot offer even less or you hear something elsewhere at least give me the courtesy to respond. We are not going to lose your business over a few dollars"
Yet I think most of these people HATE the process too!
They bring the pain on themselves. It doesn't have to be difficult.
I can understand filtering out joy riders, but who makes an appointment to travel 55 miles just to waste a salesman' time? The car only stickered at $23K so it wasn't like some exotic.
Exactly; the dealers in the Louisville areas were just arrogant and obnoxious. Oxmoor(ons) had a used MS3 and they were asking $2k over sticker for it. The dealer I eventually bought from couldn't have been nicer. I've permanently removed the Louisville Mazda dealers(and their dealer groups) from consideration whenever I look for a new/used car...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I lot of these "musts" are what has driven car prices to what they are.
A car was $4000, Bread 27 cents, Annual salary $13622 Min Wage $1.60.
Avg car (mentioned here the other day is $31,000 so it has gone up about 8X. Most other things went up 6 to 8X as well (surprisingly avg salary maybe 5 or 6X).
So cars have gone up in relation, but look at what you get on todays cars for that price. Air conditioning, power windows, Bluetooth, Satellite radio, air bags, ABS, Traction Control, much better transmissions and engines, not to mention better interiors.
So, a car is still a good value, and things like rear camera and lane changers make driving a lot safer.
You are complaining about power windows, no one would consider a car today that didn't have power windows, even the most inexpensive cars have it.
The former GF and I couldn't get close to making a deal on the Audi visiting the local dealers. However, we saved $4K by buying it in Chicago. We got a nice dinner from the dealer by making the trip to Chicago.
For $4K, I'll make the 5 hour drive.
The interesting point was I told the local dealers we were making a deal in Chicago because of the $4K delta. They (both of them) said they doubted the deal. One asked me to show them the deal, which I did when I took the S4 in for its first oil chiange. They said we should have let them match the deal.
Well, they wouldn't make the deal when given the chance. Don't know how many more chances they needed?
mako...I'd have no problem whatsoever driving a couple of hours to save a grand or more.
Comments
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Ready to do some pullups yet?
Thanks Houdini...you saved me from looking up Mike's post to see what this was referring to. We've had about 50 car posts in a row and no political posts, so must be too many meds!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Just out of curiosity, does the dealer giving up the car get anything at all for their trouble? Do they even get credit for moving a car...may add to monthly quota?
Does the selling dealer absorb the transportation fee?
I once test drove a 95 Jeep. Got a lease price and I was ready to buy. Then got a much lower price at another dealer. That dealer ordered the Jeep from the first dealer. I did call the first guy and said I was sorry but I got it from another dealer. I imagine he knew where that Jeep was going.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In this case we hadn't even landed on a price. Some nosy neighbor told the customer " I hear XXX Honda sells for less money than the other places".
So, he went there and bought without ever even checking to see if we could have matched or even beat that price.
Which we certainly would have!
May 18, 2013 (10:38 am)
Replying to: abacomike (Mar 12, 2013 10:08 am)
You can't possibly blame this guy for the situation right now...that's just STUPID!!! Considering the right is doing everything they can and hurting us, the middle class people! Last time I looked, the president of the United States doesn't have all the power you think he does. Personally, I like this guy...the economy is doing better, my investments are doing great and folks are out their with increased spending confidence! I hate all this political [non-permissible content removed]...it really has ruined this forum for me. Time for a break as talking about cars seems to have disappeared!
Later all!
I responded to this from sandman. What a nasty post - calling me stupid - not nice - and after two months! Why?
The Sandman
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Since you shopped that price, did you at least call the first store and give them a chance to match the otehr guy's price?
To answer your question..No the dealer "giving up" a car get's nothing except maybe a car that they need more than the one they are giving up.
The selling dealer PAYS the transportation fee.
I didn't, and I will explain why, though you may not agree with the way it happened, but, i try to be as fair and ethical as I can be in every situation.
I really was ready to buy from the first salesman, he was good and he let us test drive the car on our own. He came up with a lease price that seemed to be pretty good at the time...Chrysler had 30 month leases and the buy backs were very reasonable. I did ask if he could lower the price by $10 a month, just testing....he said no.
Then, I was looking through my AAA magazine and I saw an ad that said, get the best deal you can on any car you like, then call us and we will give you a dealer with an even lower price. I went to the closest dealer they gave me, and within a few minutes they gave me a deal significantly less.
I think at that point I was obligated morally and ethically to go with the 2nd dealer...that was the way the program worked. In some situations I would give the first dealer a call back to match....but, in this case this was the way the program worked.......it would defeat the purpose to go back to the original guy and ask him to match...besides, he got his chance really.
I did feel obligated to tell him he was an excellent salesman, but, the there was just too big of a difference. Money was tight then, I was getting unemployment insurance and just starting my business. I believe it was about $22 a month difference in monthly payments, but the buy back was about $800, so close to $1500 total difference.
I know what you would like to happen, but, no, I would do it the same if I was to do it again. The first dealer is in a high income area, the 2nd dealer in a much lower income area, I think that was a factor too.
Thanks for clearing up what happens in a dealer trade. I guess in the end it works to every ones advantage to trade cars - though, it must be upsetting at times.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Maybe in 1995 they really didn't catch on. It felt like maybe they couldn't lock it in. Also, that was quite a while ago and though we wrote it up I don't know if we even mentioned color with the first dealer. So, the second dealer may have scooped the car without the first dealer knowing it was for me. I think I looked at the red model at the first dealer, so I knew it was there, but I don't think the first dealer knew that was the color I wanted.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Could it be partly to the fact that there's less dealerships to begin with, so they have a more cooperative approach rather than seeing each other as competitors?
Just looking at who I've dealt with over the past 10 years....there are only 2 Acura dealers, 2 Audi dealers, 2 Lexus dealers (although owned by the same person), 2 BMW dealers.
On the other hand, there are 5 Honda dealers, 5 Toyota dealers...probably at least as many Ford dealers.
Just noticing, Lincoln dealers around here are shrivelling up like a raison.
The 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 was a hot seller. The local idiot Mazda dealers all wanted thousands over MSRP- and wouldn't give a test drive without a signed buyers offer and a deposit. I ended up buying from a dealer in Cincinnati(@125 miles away). I was offered a test drive and they found the car I wanted in Cleveland and worked out a dealer trade that resulted in my car being flatbedded to Cinci at no added charge.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Had a ride in a 2 year old MKZ and it seemed to be about the same as the owners previous car, a Fusion. Why pay a premium price for a standard car, especially when Cadillac has some exciting new models.
Also, makes me think, saw an ad for the 2014 Impala. It is supposed to be greatly improved, but, it just seems pretty generic. They tried to renew it with some bolder lines, but, looks like same old same old to me. Also, the ad shows more mature people watching a new Impala at what appears to be a country club, and the music is Frank Sinatras Take me to the Moon...not exactly aiming this car for the younger crowd.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Oh, it's "Fly Me to the Moon" Frank plays to all ages. (At least to Italians in Jersey!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
This is what Edmunds said about the 2007 Mazdaspeed 3, it might explain why there was a shortage, especially the performance combined with the fact only 5000 were available.
Pros
Immense torque, superb balance of handling and ride comfort, semi-sleeper styling, top-notch build and materials quality, hatchback utility.
Cons
Vague shifter action, tight rear legroom for taller passengers, only 5,000 available in the U.S.
My Mazda 5 rental is a good car for someone who needs basic transportation and has 3 or 4 kids. There is a backseat and then a seat behind that. Fair amount of seating for up to 4 passengers. I also like the fact the remote locks the doors and there are no beeps or extra noise, just a small clunk noise.
It would also be ideal for a little city car for picking up groceries and just for getting around. Easy to park...just not much fun.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In a lot (most?) modern cars that is a customizable setting.
It was the dealer's fault for "letting you out" wrong. Before a customer leaves, saying the right words means everything. If a salesperson fails to do this there is probably a 90% chance he will never see that person again.
I would have said..." Mr. Driver, I don't know if I can get my boss to shave another 10.00 off those payments, do we have a deal?"
If you waffled or wouldn't commit to that I would have said.." I'm on your side here (and I would be)..heck, I'll even ask for another 30.00 less a month"
If you agreed to the 30.00 I would write that up..." Will buy and drive home NOW with that amount and have you sign it.
When it was rejected I would cme back and say.." I think we both knew that wouldn't work but I tried...is there a number you would agree to and I'll try again"
If I had a solid commitment at SOME number I could usually make a deal work.
A lot of Sales Managers will agree to a skinny deal if they know they have a committed buyer and a salesperson who is trying to make a deal happen.
That store simply let you out wrong.
" You don't count the BE-BACKS you count the GREENBACKS"
Am I correct in saying that for all except maybe the "hottest" models, as long as there is a little profit the dealer will jump on the sale?
I know when I got the Lacrosse the selling price was under invoice, the MF and residual were using the published numbers, and no "extras" so somewhere that dealer made a buck or he wouldn't have sold it to me. It also was mid month so I doubt he was chasing a bonus.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
My 2000 Jeep Cherokee had a loud beep from the horn I think...it actually scared people who were walking by it.
I eventually had it taken out. I didn't think it was programmable because in their words, "They thought they could remove it". That made it sound like it was something they had to look into.
There's no need for a loud noise...people should have enough energy that they can turn their heads and watch the lights to flash.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In sales, and especially car sales your chances of selling a car must go down a huge amount once a potential customer leaves without buying. Like you said, I gave them a chance to come down, but they said that was a firm price.
When I got the AAA price and it was considerably less I would have been a moron to take the higher price just to be loyal or a nice guy. I don't think I would have bought from the second dealer if the price was $10 more, but if it is significantly more I can justify it pretty easily - they weren't acting in my best interest, so I will have to act in my own best interest.
There was a $1500 difference, so I think some dealers just accept they can make more profit from the cars they do sell, and if they only sell 1/2 the cars they still come out ahead. Just a different business model - you can make a profit on high margin, or you can do it based on volume. I much prefer the 2nd method, as a business owner and as a customer.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Would you have bought that day or still shopped that number?
Would you have bought that day or still shopped that number?
I would doubt that he can accurately answer that question at this late date. If he’s anything like me, then emotions do play a part. You can be as logical as you want, you can crunch the numbers in a spreadsheet, you can read online reviews and compare the specs until your head spins, but a lot of it will still come down to how you feel at that moment.
The biggest problem I have with the dealers is how crooked most of them are. (Please note that I said “most”, not “all”). In years past, I tended to buy based on newspaper ads. Walk into the dealership with their full page ad in hand, and tell the salesman, “I want to see THAT car (or truck), and if I like it, I’ll take it home.” I purchase a 1989 Ford F150, a 1990 Ford Mustang, a 1993 Chevy custom van, a 1995 Dodge Lancer (turbo), a 1998 Ford F250, a 2000 Ford F150, a 2000 Ford F250 (diesel), a 2005 Mazda Tribute, a 2008 Volkswagen Passat, and a 2011 Chevy Silverado Crew Cab. Every single one was purchased from a large dealership ad in the Houston Chronicle.
But those days are gone, or so it would seem. So now you have to negotiate, and the dealers seem to be every bit as crooked as ever. My latest round, I had been to the dealership, looked, driven, talked, argued, and left ($500 apart). Two days later, the salesman calls and emails, saying he will accept my offer for $500 less. But when I show up to sign the papers, it’s “Oh, we made a mistake, and it’s $750 more.” Then, “Okay, we’ll split the difference.” And then finally, as I’m leaving, “Okay, we will honor the deal we made earlier.” And then, when I go to the finance office to sign the papers, they have slipped an additional $270 in the bottom line. “Oh, I’m sorry, an error in my math. Let me correct that and reprint the forms.”
This is why most people HATE, absolutely HATE, buying new cars. If the factory took over the dealerships, and sold cars to everyone at the same price, clearly listed on each unit, the same way Walmart sells, I expect they would move a lot more cars.
This is hard to explain, but I had trouble making a large purchase on the spur of the moment. Especially at that time, when money was pretty tight. I wasn't holding out to try to get $10 off, I just wanted to think it over. It was a big step for me at the time, I was collecting unemployment insurance, starting a new business, and the payments were about $325 a month.
They already said they wouldn't lower the price. I didn't even plan on shopping around. I just remembered the AAA ad and thought I would give it a shot, expecting there to be a slight difference in price, probably not enough to actually switch dealers at that point.
But, when I went in, and the price was significantly lower, and it only took 15 minutes to give me that price, it confirmed for me that this must be a good price....and I just wanted the Jeep for that price, I was pretty certain I wouldn't do better.
But, if I hadn't called and got an AAA dealer, I wouldn't have shopped around, I would have bought the car from the first salesman - I liked him and trusted him.
When I bought my 2nd Jeep 5 years later, I went in with an ad from another dealer offering new Jeeps for what I thought was a really low price.
I asked the salesman if he could match the clearance price...thinking if I can get a new Jeep for that price I would buy it for sure...by then I could easily afford it.
He said, not only can I match it, I can do quite a bit better! So, I think it really ended up as well as it could for me.
Someone once told me the easiest person to sell to is a salesperson (which I was and have mostly ever been), because they can't play games with other salespeople - they know what it is like. I really try to be as fair as I can to salespeople, because I like to be treated fairly.
Next post I'll remind you about buying my wife's Audi......
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The salesman was a young guy, but they were so busy that day he was selling new cars even though he was the used car salesman.
He was the best salesman. Easy going, understood what we wanted. He was enthusiastic about Audis and liked the dealership. We tried out the cars and liked it better than the 328. He told us he would give us to another salesman because he was leaving the dealership the next morning because he wanted to look after his aging parents.
He gave us exactly what I wanted for our trade in....he gave me the number, I didn't tell him. Then he matched the 4% discount bmw would have given us. He said we could think about it the following week and he would give us another salesperson to work with. We said we wanted to buy the car from him, we'll buy it on the spot. We bought the car at 5 p.m. on a Saturday just at closing time.
I value a good honest salesman and will go out of my way to work with them. I think the Jeep was just a fluke that I remembered the AAA pricing and I checked out the 2nd dealer...and it was much less. I did apologize to the first salesman, called him and told him what I paid for my new Jeep.
My question to you is...should I have called him back or just have left it? I think I owed him the courtesy of calling back, but it isn't nice having to do that.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That is basically true. I know though, the big difference was I did remember the AAA ad that said, find the best price you can, call us, we will give you a dealer who will give you the lowest price possible. I don't think AAA does that anymore.
The other factor like I explained was I did want to think it over, it was a big purchase and decision for me at the time. But, I think I would have bought from the first dealer at the time....I thought their price seemed in the range and was actually lower than I expected......those were the glory days for leasing a vehicle.
I think you are correct that there is a fair bit of dishonesty in the car selling business. Occasionally, you get a a good salesperson like our Audi guy. Even then you have to be careful, because the 2nd time they might take advantage, so you have to be prepared before going. I have more bad experiences than good basically...just have to keep one step ahead.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
anyway, the sale worked out, but then the state of NY and their DMV got involved. It took him about 3 months before he could finally drive it, and he had to haul it 2 times to different facilities to look at. then multiple trips to the DMV office. by the end, he had the direct line # for the guy in Albany that managed custom car registrations. Seemed to be really Kafkaesque by the end. But, worked out, because it finally has a NY approved VIN, stickers, and plates.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Over $40K sounds like a lot for an Impala. It is a much improved car, but that's getting into Caddie territory, without a lot of bling factor.
Watch for big reductions, too many great cars with a much better track record in that price range.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Another DMV thing. My buddy from work bought a first year Mustang.
He got talking to the DMV manager (also an old Mustang affection-ado)
and they decided that since it was Mfd before April of 1964 it could get
a 1964 1/2 year designation. Making it a very sought after Title year.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Agree, but this is a different animal from the previous generation Impala. In an earlier post I mentioned that the Impala was so upscale that I thought it belonged in the Cadillac or Buick line up. Nonetheless, the new Impala is a worthy candidate as the Chevy flagship sedan.
Like the new Avalon, the 2014 Impala will not be part of fleet sales but instead the 2013 will carry over for the fleet and rental markets.
Furthermore, I read yesterday the average transaction price of a new car is now $31K. The new Impala is way above average and a well equipped 2LT model should be in the $36K range.
Dealer wants to use MSRP even though he has a King Ranch listed for $44,410 from a $5k more
MSRP. I offered $12,410 difference, but he wants $16k diff. I said I just don't love it that much.
My thinking is give me a buy bid on the 2013 Mustang with 4k miles and I'll add my $12k to it
and buy at ad price. They want to trade giving me more for the Mustang, but going back to MSRP
on the truck. Those loaded up F-150s can be pricy. As in $40-53k. Mustang will bring $33-34k.
Here are my choices from dealers 2 hours away to 3 1/2 hours away.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-F-150-Lariat-2013-Lariat-New-5L-V8-32V-Autom- atic-4WD-Moonroof-/321080587328?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item4ac1e4f440
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2013-Platinum-New-5L-V8-32V-Automatic-4WD-Moonroo- f-/281093138320?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item417274e790
Haven't tried those far away dealers yet as it's a hassle to get away for that long drive and local
dealer is reluctant to use their numbers while selling from their lot. I need a local buy bid and a
ride to Charlotte to arrive as a cash buyer to get best deal.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
for it's ease of parking since it was 6 inches narrower than other vehicles.
Also I'm making rear camera a must have since tailgate blocks view.
I don't mind parking in the toolies as I'm supposed to walk more anyway.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Now, the dealerships are in the business to bump up from that "bottom line" sell price. But again, I think most here know those games, too.
As isellhondas used to say, it's incredible what some people will put themselves through to buy a car....most of it unnecessary. Saw this over in the Accord forums a couple of months ago before my sister landed on the Acura TL.
mako...my best friend just bought a Platimun F150. Don't know the difference between it and the King Ranch, but he sure has been bemoaning his MPG. I think he has the V6 turbo, which he says averages about 13MPG-14MPG. They are big and heavy, so don't know how much he can do about it.
I will say, they are very nice inside. But, unless you're towing or hauling a lot, I can't think of a reason to have one, as they are hard to park and maneuver. I didn't realize they could get that pricey, either.
Yep, Loaded F-150s are in E and C Benz territory. I am still trying to figure out
what FX4 is as compared to 4X4. FX4 can get every option, but XL and XLT
4X4 can't. Confusing? I'd like King Ranch options, Platinum 2 tone seats, and
FX4 suspension. Must have V8 as I don't want a truck sounding like a weed
wacker with 6 cylinders and a wind up turbo. Mileage is irrelevant to me.
Too bad it'll have to sit outside as garage setup won't allow with workbench.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
That's an option that came with a package on my 535 and my wife's 04.
The rental Mazda 5 doesn't have one, but rear view is pretty good.
Still, a rear camera is a must, you know exactly where your rear bumper is and you can see everything going on behind you. They are inexpensive and worth every penny.
Not sure how those after market cameras would be though.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Really?
I lot of these "musts" are what has driven car prices to what they are.
Back in the "old days" if a car had power windows that was considered a rare, unnecessary option.
These things along with all of the goverment required emission and safety equipment have pushed prices up and up.
But...that's a good thing, I suppose.
I had the exact same experience as RB in the spring of 2007. The dealer I went to wouldn't budge off of MSRP, which wasn't a problem for me. What really bugged me was their complete disinterest in letting me drive the one on the lot as I had made an internet appointment to do so. In the end, unlike RB, I bought the weak sister, regular 3 hatch, which has proven to be an excellent vehicle despite its propensity for attracting hail (doesn't help that I live in OK) and other drivers to smack it (twice).
I can understand filtering out joy riders, but who makes an appointment to travel 55 miles just to waste a salesman' time? The car only stickered at $23K so it wasn't like some exotic.
Gogiboy
Don't know if you saw this, but your salvation has arisen and you can now avoid this vicious cycle by buying a Tesla.
I see that their business model calls for stores where you basically can test drive, but must order--at full MSRP--using the store or internet. Servicing is done elsewhere. Cars at the store are limited to one or two for test drives and are not for sale. As the cars are selling well, the company owned stores are not pressuring buyers, not even asking for phone numbers or calling back customers. According to the article I read, their approach is causing paroxysms of fear in places like Texas and NC where dealer groups--with the support of NADA--are battling to prevent the cars from being sold or even ordered.
I'm not advocating the Tesla approach, merely repeating that it is out there for those who wish to avoid the adversarial dance at the dealership, but it comes at a steep price. Then again, you could just test drive cars, figure out what you want, return home and then work with the dealership's internet sales to get a written price for a unit on the lot. Another option is one of those buying services. Don't Costco and Trucar offer them?
Best I can tell is that the current sales paradigm has little to do with how much gets sold, but has everything to do with who sells it.
Gogiboy
Yes Costco has a buying service, sort of. You provide your name, phone number, email, and Costco card number along with your zip code.
In no time you are bombarded by hounds of dealers with annoying phone calls. The prices offered are below MSRP but perhaps not better than what you could negotiate on your own. And by the way, the program is not available for certain brands.
I posted here in March when I purchased my King Ranch for $10,243 off MSRP.
It is a huge vehicle, largest I've ever owned and parking can be a challenge. However, for what it is I love the truck. Put a Borla exhaust on it this weekend so now it sounds like it's supposed to! And today I towed my boat with it for the first time and the truck was just as impressive as I expected.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
Just pay MSRP and leave happy instead of HATING the experience.
So, go buy a Saturn!
Ah....I believe Saturn folded a few years ago!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
My store was a Costco store and we quickly found out that the deeply discounted Costco price STILL wasn't enough for most shoppers.
They would test drive the cars, we would sit down with them according to Costco's instructions and go over the pricing.
It wasn't often that the shopper would say.." Gee, that sounds great and what a hassel free experience this has been" Let's write it up!
Nope, they would usually write the price down, smile and say " Sounds good, I'll get back to you" Or....Can't you do any better"?
Sure they would! They would take that number and shop it everywhere in their frantic attempt to "save" another hundred dollars.
So, again we had to "let them out right"
I would tell them..." Now, according to our agreement with Costco, this is the MOST we can charge you for this car. If you want ot offer even less or you hear something elsewhere at least give me the courtesy to respond. We are not going to lose your business over a few dollars"
Yet I think most of these people HATE the process too!
They bring the pain on themselves. It doesn't have to be difficult.
Exactly; the dealers in the Louisville areas were just arrogant and obnoxious. Oxmoor(ons) had a used MS3 and they were asking $2k over sticker for it. The dealer I eventually bought from couldn't have been nicer. I've permanently removed the Louisville Mazda dealers(and their dealer groups) from consideration whenever I look for a new/used car...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yep, The Charlotte dealer lists the window sticker and price approx $10 lower
on ebay so I like their prices. Not sure what they would do for trade. Mustang
is 9 months old with 4k miles, but Charlotte is 3 hours away. I'd like to get a
buy bid locally and go to Charlotte and surely come back with a good one.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Work them a bit, then tell them Hendrick is going to give you another 2K if you buy a Chevy.
A car was $4000, Bread 27 cents, Annual salary $13622 Min Wage $1.60.
Avg car (mentioned here the other day is $31,000 so it has gone up about 8X.
Most other things went up 6 to 8X as well (surprisingly avg salary maybe 5 or 6X).
So cars have gone up in relation, but look at what you get on todays cars for that price. Air conditioning, power windows, Bluetooth, Satellite radio, air bags, ABS, Traction Control, much better transmissions and engines, not to mention better interiors.
So, a car is still a good value, and things like rear camera and lane changers make driving a lot safer.
You are complaining about power windows, no one would consider a car today that didn't have power windows, even the most inexpensive cars have it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
is 9 months old with 4k miles, but Charlotte is 3 hours away
What's going on with the Mustang? You're worse than Mike. Is it time for an oil change?
Or, do you just want a truck really badly?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
For $4K, I'll make the 5 hour drive.
The interesting point was I told the local dealers we were making a deal in Chicago because of the $4K delta. They (both of them) said they doubted the deal. One asked me to show them the deal, which I did when I took the S4 in for its first oil chiange. They said we should have let them match the deal.
Well, they wouldn't make the deal when given the chance. Don't know how many more chances they needed?
mako...I'd have no problem whatsoever driving a couple of hours to save a grand or more.