Stories from the Sales Frontlines

snakeweasel

I would say that you think wrong. While I do try to get a good deal I don't try to squeeze every last nickel out of a deal. I know that there is a relationship between time and money and I don't spend a lot of time saving a little money.

If I am going to go 753 miles to get a new car it that sucker better be free. I just don't get emotional over a car purchase.

snakeweasel

Likewise I am sure.

lrguy44

Granted, many sales people (especially at low end like Hyundai dealerships) that are totally incompetent. I also know that there are things that my years in the biz, and 6 years with LR and volvomax and isell and madman know that only being in the biz teaches about the product, people, and the biz. If you don't want to find sales people like that, then spend your hours researching and not trusting anybody. But if you find a good salesperson, use them. You might even learn something. Now we will sit back in our own small small part of the real world and wait for the know it all superior response.

boomchek

Granted, many sales people (especially at low end like Hyundai dealerships) that are totally incompetent

It's funny what my manager once said, if you pay peanuts, you get monekys.

And thanks for the encouragment guys, we'll see what happens.

If worst comes to worst I'm not too worried because in this business you can find 3 jobs tommorow without any trouble.

If I do get canned I will probably leave Honda, and might consider Toyota.

fitrn

Question.... I test drove a scion today and asked the salesman to see the invoice (actually I wanted a copy if possible so I could take it to compare the dealer option add ons, with the Fit I already have a deposit on but have been waiting along time to get). I simply asked if I could see the invoice for the car. The salesman got very jerky and said, Do you have a dealers license? Its law only dealers can see the invoice, I mean cmon. I told him to take a hike and instantly left the dealership. I thought the customer has the right to see the dealer invoice for the purchase of the car from manufacturer? Is this a courtesy or legal obligation??

jmonroe

But if you find a good salesperson, use them.

I don’t think anyone will argue with that but how do you know you have found a good salesperson if you are not informed? If you go into a dealership without some knowledge, you’re at the mercy of that salesperson. This is not a good way to do business for anything not just cars. Unfortunately, your profession is at the top of the list for people who are skeptical of your advice. From reading the posts of most of you guys in the biz that come here, I know that you are not the ones who have created the problem but I’m sure you can understand why car buyers are on guard when they walk into your store. I’ve said this before, I think car salesman in general are much better than years ago but your reputation lives on.

To answer your original question, I agree that when you find a good one you should use them.

I found a very good one with my last purchase and I will definitely use him again.

jmonroe

explorerx4

consider this, there is just about nothing to work with on a scion invoice. i have never seen an actual one, but you can see what it is on many sites.

snakeweasel

Granted, many sales people (especially at low end like Hyundai dealerships) that are totally incompetent.

And there are many people in high end dealerships that are totally incompetent. I remember asking one BMW salesman what the joys stick thing (I think they call it I-drive but not sure) and he said he didn't know.

I won't mention brand name on this but I once did the taxes of a salesman of a high end brand once when I asked them about the new model that was to be coming out real soon. They sat there with a blank look on their face and had no ideal of what I was talking about.

But if you find a good salesperson, use them.

Here in lies the issue. Unless I am a well informed buyer I don't know if I have found a good salesperson. But if I am a well informed person I really don't need a salesperson.

I will wait in my own larger part of the real world and wait your superior response.

tidester

I'm sure he would try and correct Stephen Hawkings in a discussion on quantum physics.

And the good professor would likely thank SW for pointing out the error of his ways as he's made a good number of mistakes. http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=en&newwindow=1&q=steven+hawking+mistake&b- tnG=Search

In any case, I think it's a mistake to make any member here the topic of discussion and suggest that we avoid that.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

snakeweasel

Most likely not as I don't know the first thing of quantum physics. Ok I know the first thing, something about the second thing (but don't really understand it) but after that I am lost.

user777

Here in lies the issue. Unless I am a well informed buyer I don't know if I have found a good salesperson. But if I am a well informed person I really don't need a salesperson.

i agree with this.

with all due respect to the salespeople that contribute to these forums and my understanding of their profession, i really want to know what the salesperson is doing for me as a consumer, if it appears that he or she is merely a go-between me and the person in the position to say yes or no to the number / deal proposed.

unfortunately, but in all honesty, it's been very rare that the salesperson has known more about the vehicle that i was trying to purchase than myself, and twice this also extended to incentives as well. :sick:

in general, it seemed it was the salesperson's raison d'etre to confuse an otherwise straight-forward transaction.

mako1a

I see a lot of hands out between me and the robot building my new car. Why can't I just pay the robot?

User777, you won't be answered here. This seems to be a salesperson "only" site. Maybe a host can direct buyers to a customer "only" site as we too are on the frontlines, however without profit motivation.

Greed, deception and dishonest tactics just seem to be blatant in the auto sales market. It will be eliminated by the purveyors or by the government. But it must change as buyers are sick of it.

mikefm58

Why do you want to see the invoice of a Scion? I believe the Scion business model is quite like a Saturn. There is the price of the vehicle and no negotiations, everyone pays the same list price. Granted there are accessories that could get added on, but I'm sure those are on the sticker.

oldfarmer50

"...quantum physics...don't really understand it..."

That's kinda like I feel when buying a car. Particles that can be in two places at once or can be different depending on who the observer is. Sounds like some of the sales presentations I've been given.

For really wierd though, try string theory.

imidazol97

There's not one price. The local Toyo dealer has $900-$1900 addons to everything I looked at. I assume he added them to the Scions, if not more. I'll check when I go look at Camrys.

kyfdx

2006 Scion xA:Invoice Pricing


You don't even have to ask the dealer..

fitrn

I wasn't looking to work the price I was hoping to get a better idea of what was being charged because the dealer threw on their own ADD ON package which substantially increased the cost of the vehicle. I wanted to cost compare the car with the ADD ONS with another vehicle I was looking at but did not tell him this.

fitrn

Thank you for the link.. off I go :shades:

isellhondas

I have to ask you...

Don't you think it was rude to ask a salesperson to see an invoice?

Would you do that in a furniture store?

Why in the world would a customer have a "right" to see an invoice???

It sounds like you put a deposit on the Fit so that you could secure a car while you continue to shop?

I just don't understand this mentality...maybe it's just me?

madmanmoo

Haha, Tidester.

I love the fact that you googled that. I'm just having fun with snakeweasel. I think we have a mutual feeling for each other.

Members are bound to come up though as a point of discussion on the forum. Bobst is a virtual celebrity here. GG, Jipster, thenebean, and a bunch of others here have great personalities that tend to come through.

Just having fun.

-Moo

madmanmoo

I don't really care if someone wants to see an invoice on a vehicle. The information is so prevalent everywhere that there is no sense in me withholding information if they want to see.

I don't think it is their "right", but with the fact that I know they can immediately pull it up in front of me on the computer..... well, I could care less about showing it to them. It doesn't mean that they will be paying that!

I do my best to make my customers feel as welcome as possible when I am with them. I remind myself to treat them as if they were a guest in my own home.

I got a kiss from a 77 yr old woman yesterday who purchased a Sentra from me. She pretty much rules. (Incidentally, she didn't ask to see the invoice. She wanted to talk about my wife and new baby.) :surprise:

-Moo

isellhondas

I don't know, I guess I grew up in a different time or something.

Yes, all of that invoice information is easilly accessible through the internet and othr sources. I still think it would be rude for a customer to ask me to show them an invoice. I have had this happen maybe three times in 12 years. Sometimes, I will pull the invoice and show it to them if they are making a ridiculous offer. Even then, some customers think somehow, they should buy the cars for less.

I guess the part that bothered me about that post was the comment about showing the invoice to somehow be a "right" or an "obligation".

We are looking at a new couch and some tables right now, and I don't care what the furniture store paid for them. I sure wouldn't ask to see the invoice.

I like my customers too. At this point, about a third of my business comes from previous owners and through referrals. I have watched their toddlers turn into drivers.

I try not to think about the small percentage that I hope I never see again and tha is a VERY small percentage.

snakeweasel

Don't you think it was rude to ask a salesperson to see an invoice?

I don't, car dealers always talk about invoice so its not rude to do so.

Would you do that in a furniture store?

I would if furniture stores operated in the same way that car dealers do. But since they don't thats comparing apples to Las Angles class submarines.

Why in the world would a customer have a "right" to see an invoice???

They have the right since the industry is always promoting invoice plus $X. The auto sales industry created this so I wouldn't complain

mikefm58

Doesn't the sticker on the vehicle list the MSRP, which is not negotiable on a Scion (I think), and then add ons? I must be dense today as I don't see what use asking for the invoice accomplishes on a Scion. But anyway, our gracious host pointed out the invoice price for you.

fitrn

if the furniture stores of america were known for some of the same sales behaviors of dealerships, then yes I would. No I dont feel it's rude and I feel it is good practice as a buyer, and aparently so does Edmunds.COM and everyother car buying website I have visited. Would you buy the first couch you saw or compare prices at other stores to make sue you're not going to pay $2000 more than you should? I dont understand the mentality of the questions, but to each his own I guess. And Yes, I have a deposit on a fit but if the deal is not kosher I know my options. Sorry if an informed consumer offends you.

lonforu07

Hi,Im new here. I'm sure that my question has been asked here before. Im looking into purchasing a used vehicle preferably a 03 or 04 Honda Accord Ex Sedan. I have a found a couple of really nice looking ones but they have over 100,000 miles on them. So, im wondering if anyone has purchased this kind of car with high mileage like this? If so, what was your experience? I was also wondering if i would just be wasting my time on purchasing a car with this kind of mileage? How much longer will it prob last? Im only looking to have the car maybe a couple of years or so but i would want to make sure it would last that long first. Would love to hear personal experiences. Thanks

fitrn

very well said, and that is the service I look for. If the salesman had chosen a different way to say "no" I would have considered the dealer in the future. However, his nasty attitude was not that of a salesman worth my business. I was not nasty to him so why should I be treated any other way? I have done my homework and I continue to before I purchase my first new car, I am a woman and, alas, as we know there is potential for me to looked upon as an easy ride. So, If my request to see an invoice on a Scion was askew, as I was hoping to view price comparisons of the dealer installed add ons verses the manufacturers price, then he could have politely discussed it with me. In todays market, the buyer can obviously find anything they want at any time and if the sales rep handles themself with class and respect for the buyer, then for this consumer, that far outweighs most other variables. I could have handled a professional "NO" not a chastising attitude. Hence, this dealership will never ever get my business and I will feel free to share my opinion about the lack of service when I am asked. On the other hand, I look forward to starting a relationship for current and future business with a respectable dealership represented by a careful and professional sales crew.

user777

They have the right since the industry is always promoting invoice plus $X. The auto sales industry created this so I wouldn't complain

me either, specially when i show them numbers reflecting what i know to be invoice and we add in such things as destination, and fill in the blank.

if a salesman says my invoice number is incorrect, i'm calling him on it (if i decide not to walk that is).

the fact that an identical vehicle at two stores doesn't cost the stores the same is not of the same world most of us live in.

fitrn

the sticker only shows what the dealer is charging for those over priced accessories they have installed.. it doesn't show what the true price the dealer paid for them was and often there is a large percentage mark up on thse items. Can't blame the dealership for trying to make profit, but more often that profit is waayy too high for my taste as a consumer. I don't plan to knickel and dime, I just want a fair price.

fitrn

um, I thought forums were to find answers? I was asking as I felt maybe I was misinformed as to my right to the invoice. I should have actually asked, Isn't it good selling practice to show the invoice upon request since the customer can get the information anyway and many other dealerships either offer the invoice or display it upon request as good cutomer service? Yes, the old day of dealerships being able to overprice everything is fading away with the age of the internet and informed consumers. I don't mean to attack all sales reps or dealers. Just the small few that are offended by informed consumers who expect quality service for their purchase.

fitrn

much agreed

isellhondas

I don't talk about invoices, the customers are the onew who do.

I don't know what a "Las Angles" class submarine is so I guess I'[l have to look that one up.

I suppose if a particular store advertised 100.00 over invoice! then I suppose the customer would have every right to ask to see it. Otherwise I just think it's rude..sorry.

user777

this reminds me once i had to replace a bent alloy rim for a VW. this is many years ago. price to me on the parts dept slip was something like $300. they had a problem with their multi-part form printer, and so i saw their cost: $115 or so. that was an eye opener.

i think a person has a legitimate reason to ask what the costs of these add-on items are as well. often times, they can be purchased for far less outside of the car purchase transaction.

now, labor for installation has to be factored in, but how much profit is too much? 100%, 200%, 300%?

then there's the infinite % markup; the one where you find the dealer has marked up the MSRP because of additional add-ons that AREN'T ACTUALLY ON THE VEHICLE!

or when some try to convince you they're doing you a favor and offering you the car for less because they are going to scratch those items and the associated "costs" off the dealer applied sticker. like you're being rewared for being observant and vigilant.

geesh.

isellhondas

Oh, I'm not offended. Not at all. After being in retail all of my life, nothing offends or really surprises me.

But I do think it is RUDE to ask a merchant, ANY merchant to show a customer an invoice. I am sorry but that's just the way I feel, ESPECIALLY when that information is available from a variety of sources.

But, that's me...maybe I'm old fashioned or something.

And, of course we will shop around and compare prices before we lay out thousands of dollars on new furniture.

We will probably end up at the small mom and pop furniture store that is in our town.

isellhondas

There was no reason for you to be mistreated. I would have shown you the invoice without complaint and you would not have known that I thought your request was rude.

I'm a better actor than that.

I sell a LOT of cars to people who have stormed out of other stores.

isellhondas

Honda lists accessory prices on their website but people often fail to read the part about labor being additionsl.

At 100.00 per hour, tha labor can often equal or exceed the price of the part!

Speking of furniture and markups, I understand a 100% markup on furniture is pretty common. I wish we could do that with cars!

fitrn

That's good practice. Everyday things are done that other people see rude. But in sales and service, private opinion loses $$. Sorry, I DONT feel it is rude to be on fair playing ground with the dealership and we will just have to differ on that opinion, which I can respect. I wouldn't have asked for the invoice if the Sticker price wasn't $2000 over MSRP for a stereo system and floor mats. I don't plan on asking for the invoice on the fit if it comes in as I feel the Honda dealership has been more "NO Haggle" than the scion dealer. I truly want the FIT, Im fearful of a let down because it has been soo easy so far. The salesman was respectful, nonintrusive and agreed to $250 below MSRP without haggle and took $100 refundable deposit all in writing in Feb. It has been about 5 weeks and vehicle is overdue and I had to call a few times to get he VIN which I finally obtained last week. But so far easy dealings. Another reason why I test drove the scion, I dont want to be haggled if the deal is not what is appears to be. It seems too good to be true but Im hopeful this sales rep is really as good as he appears so far. If he is, and the dealership is true, then I will be a longstanding customer and spread the word. I'm fearful to get my hopes up to find yet another false pretense. I have yet to have even test drove a Fit, so Im doing my homework so I can be sure and have no indecision about this large purchase. I bought a couch a few months ago and looked at several different stores and ended up buying at a Mom and Pop store, which di dthe old bait and switch with the couch,, they told us new couch from wharehouse but delivered the battered floor model. No wonder im jaded :P

mikefm58

the sticker only shows what the dealer is charging for those over priced accessories they have installed.. it doesn't show what the true price the dealer paid for them was and often there is a large percentage mark up on thse items

Oh, OK, sorry I misunderstood your post, you were more interested in the invoice of the add-ons. That is good to know as the markup is usually significant on dealer add-ons.

snakeweasel

I don't talk about invoices, the customers are the onew who do.

Since I have never seen you selling I cannot say what you do or don't bring up. However dealerships promoting the ideal of $x over invoice should not be a surprise to anyone. It is done all the time over here and I would believe where you are too. If I wait long enough (within two weeks) I will hear some dealership advertising selling some car for $99 over invoice.

I suppose if a particular store advertised 100.00 over invoice! then I suppose the customer would have every right to ask to see it. Otherwise I just think it's rude..sorry.

Its not just A particular store its that it is a common practice in the industry. If you think its rude to play by the rules that your industry established so be it. But in reality the auto sales industry has brought it on themselves, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

fitrn

NP

stewardrobbins

When I was shopping for a new Toyota Sienna, I found the car I was looking for at Bellevue Toyota. They listed the MSRP AND the invoice price on their inventory website. The invoice matched the KBB. Edmunds, prices.

I found this very handy when I called the dealer and was offered the Sienna at invoice, less the rebate.

Information makes shopping MUCH easier.

BTW, this was the best purchase experience of my life - it was definitely worth flying to Seattle from Spokane to pick up the van.

tidester

This seems to be a salesperson "only" site.

Hardly. We have well over 7,000 active discusssions here with only a very small number "dedicated" to dealers or salespeople.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

tidester

Try this: Honda Accord High Mileage Success Stories

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

madmanmoo

Fitrn,

I wouldn't worry about that Fit. The reason why it was so easy, is because there is absolutely no pressure on the salesman or you. There is so little markup in that Fit. The deal is a mini. You can't haggle on price because they are all pre-ordered. If you don't buy it, someone else will.

Wait on your Fit, you may like it very much. If you don't, they will be happy to refund your deposit and put the Fit on the lot. Right?

Or, check out the Nissan Versa! That car is awesome. (Nissan plug here.)

As far as the salesman from Scion. You said it, it's all in the presentation. How do you want to say something?

-Moo

fitrn

nor would I care to know if the seller thinks my request is rude, he or she is not the one making the purchase.

fitrn

I truly Hope this is true Moo.. I really liked his style and I would love for this to be a true deal. I will hang in there for the Fit and see what happens, I'll be sure to update as well. He did say that the profit to himself and the store is so little that price didn't matter and he signed the sales slip for $16,245 for Sport Automatic. Although Honda approved me for lowest financing he encourgaed me to shop elsewhere as well and told me not to feel pressured to use financing through Honda. I was very impressed but Im still cautious, I was taken for a ride when I purchased my used Mits Eclipse. Thanks for the encouraging words, it's nice to see. The Versa is on my list of "back up" cars if the Fit falls through. Im economical and never thought I'd get a NEW car but the Fit and other subcompact cars are a great price for what they provide. SOo it's off to new car owner land (I hope)...

madmanmoo

As best as you can trust someone typing to you on a forum, trust me. I sold Hondas for about a year and the Fit deals went exactly like that.

If he has a VIN for you, then the vehicle is close. You only get a VIN once the vehicle hits the states. Right Isell?

Good luck and enjoy.

-Moo

P.S. If you really like your salesman, kiss him after the deal is done. My 77 yr old customer has just earned every perk she could possibly hope for from me. :P

fitrn

LOL... Ok I'll make sure I wear RED Lipstick so He will have a mark of "Happy Consumer" to bear on his cheek all day... :P .. and congrats on your New baby by the way! Your input has been taken to heart and I appreciate you sharig your knowledge

user777

true. true. and the handa site for example is really good in this regard for those shopping hondas. and for those shopping replacement parts, i like the majestic site. these help someone know approximately what the parts can go for if they want to DIY.

roof rails, mud guards, cargo trays and nets. it's all there. but i'd have to say, it is the stupid consumer who doesn't know flaps mean wheel removal. if they think it's going to be at cost to the purchaser, they aren't being savvy... and there's no excuse for that.

what kills me is like i said, the dealer doing ADM bumps / etc, and there being a big disco between say a tray or net and the price directly to us. i mean, let's face it, that doesn't involve any installation labor. and I have seen it isel. and in ATL, i have seen two different honda dealerships with add-ons on the window, and lo-and-behold, the items weren't on the car!

or there's the mega ATL dealership which shall go un-named, but easily deduced that was advertising LX ODYs at invoice, and what do you know, they wouldn't sell one unbumped, even when i was watching them being off-loaded from the trailer in un-bumped condition.

ha ha ha to me.

now, regarding furniture markups, what would be truly rude is if you went to a custom cabinet maker and you asked to see the invoice of the raw wood and stain and sanding product purchases the person paid before setting out to build your custom table or hutch or (insert piece). THAT would be rude!

otherwise, i politely disagree with your argument, and here's why:

sir, you deal with a commodity product, plain and simple as that. you add value on that, sure, and are deserving to be compensated for it, sure, but that's a different subject w.r.t. if invoice should be disclosed to customer and if it's rude to be asked.

isellhondas

Wow...250.00 UNDER MSRP ???

That means they made about 250.00 on that Fit! Hardly worth the effort.

Maybe they don't sell well in your neck of the woods?

We definatly disagree on the rudeness element. Even if it's sales or service situation.