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It could take awhile....GM dealers are going to be busy fixing lots of cars for the next few months!
I found the Edmunds price for a 2014 Focus was about $5k less than MSRP. $1500 off on a Mazda doesn't sound that exciting. See what you would save on Edmunds!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I have to laugh - just looked at my profile and saw "ancient badge" - I guess I have been here for some time. Too bad they don't have a badge for lurking. I used to read the daily blog Carl on Cars - I very much enjoyed his updates, however he is long gone from Edmunds.
I'm already seeing craigslist ads claiming all the things wrong with the seller's car will be fixed free on recall.
http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/4433211000.html
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'd be foolish to trust any faceless corporation but Ford gets points for not getting too far in bed with the government. At least they haven't been caught recently like GM covering up stuff.
When I said Ford is a different story I was referring more to having a product I liked at a price I MIGHT be able to reach.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
What models were they? I rented a Fusion a few years ago and it seemed pretty good. Reviews for the Taurus sound pretty good, though it sure doesn't seem to be a car made for enjoyment. Mustang seems to fill that niche market as well if not better than the competitors. I had a Focus loaner and it was many generations ago....seemed very minimal, but, they must be much better now.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Not to mention how ridiculously strong $3K is for a car sitting for a year (translation it barely runs) and just happens to be one of most lame offerings from GM in the 2000s. The original S-series Saturns were competitive, but the brand started going downhill in a hurry by then.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
I was hesitant to buy the Fords this time because of the continual low level of talk about problems with certain of their turbo engines.
Amen! I see all this for GM as the pendulum having swung to the safe side of recalls.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why is GM not required to pay back the last 10 billion? Since I had to pay $25k in taxes for the 2011 tax year I think a new Camaro would even it out.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
GM repaid the $6.7 billion borrowed plus interest at 7%. However, as part of the bailout plan the Government accepted stock in exchange for the money it gave to GM. And here is the irrational plot, in structuring the deal, the stock was overvalued by a magnitude of 200%. Stock is equity and as such GM does NOT have to repay the shareholder/s i.e. the U.S. and Canadian governments.
Still, the shareholder may hold these shares in perpetuity and from time to time receive dividends when declared and paid. Since political pressure forced the feds to sell their shares early, they (we) in effect took a haircut to the tune of $10.5 billion. Not very smart for the men running the U.S. Treasury.
Trust me - the man running the U.S. Treasury would never be able to sell GM Stock unless the White House approved the sale - meaning the chief advisors and the chief of staff - if not the man himself.
Pressure came from the unions and the congress. Besides, the government sure could use a few billion dollars here and there with the deficits they've been running.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
This makes me wonder (from the AP Press)
General Motors recalls Malibu, Lacrosse midsize cars to fix problem with brakes
Associated Press May 16, 2014 Leave a Comment SHARE
DETROIT (AP) — General Motors is recalling about 8,200 midsize cars to fix a problem with the front brakes.
It's the sixth recall announced by the company this week and the 24th this year. Since January, GM has recalled about 11.2 million cars and trucks.
The latest recall affects 2014 Buick Lacrosse and Chevrolet Malibu models.
**GM says in documents posted Friday by U.S. safety regulators that rear brake rotors were mistakenly installed on the front. **The rear rotors are thinner, so brake pads will wear faster and could lose contact with the brake calipers. That could cause longer stopping distances and brake failure.
The company says it has no reports of crashes or injuries due to the problem.
Dealers were told to stop delivering the cars on May 1. Owners will get letters starting May 29. Dealers will inspect the brakes and replace rotors and pads if needed at no cost to owners.
Just a few random thoughts;
How does something like that happen? (wrong brakes put on)
6th recall this week!
24th recall this year!
Would these cars have been recalled if the government didn't find the ignition problems?
People who have unsafe GM cars are told to park their cars until they can be repaired, what good is that?
Once again, what will happen to used car values...do you want to buy a car that needs to be fixed to bring it up to acceptable standards.
The company's new safety chief says GM is now recalling cars much faster if there's a safety problem.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
What a shame - brand new 2014 Buicks and Chevrolets recalled because they put the wrong brakes on the front of the car. Sure took them long enough to figure that out! These cars have been on the road since September, 2013. I would have assumed that someone would have noticed the error much sooner. The computers at the factory that deliver parts to the assembly line for installation on the each car should have alerted those on the assembly line that they were the wrong rotors - even if the computers were programmed incorrectly. At least the workers on the line should have noticed - someone in quality control should have noticed. Or is quality control no longer used on GM assembly lines?
I just find it difficult to sympathize with GM at this moment. Something is obviously "seriously" wrong on some of these assembly lines. I wonder how many more recalls are we going to hear about? How can people trust GM after this mess? It changed my mind about possibly buying a Cadillac XTS - no way!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
This issue is a combination of both GM and the supplier. Rhe brake systems are manufactured by someone else and delivered to GM as an assembly. With six sigma quality initiatives prevalent in manufacturing, quality assurance is pushed as far down the process as possible. It's essentially the suppliers job to make sure the product is perfect. Samples are tested and checked but the goal is to foolproof the manufacturing process so mistakes don't happen.
In the real world, &(^$ happens and in this case the fault lies with GM as their name is on the product. The issue should have been caught at the supplier - it could be something as simple as the cartons marked with the wrong model number of brake rotors put on work cell where the assembly is made.
OK, I'll buy the explanation...I just think GM lost credibility though. I would have considered a Cadillac next time around, though it is a long shot, but, how could I even consider an XTS or ATS at this point in time. How could I trust the car was put together right, how could I be sure there won't be numerous recalls, how can I trust GM will be there if I need them?
I really wanted GM to succeed, and I hope they do. But, I won't be going along for the ride.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
One is a Ranger 4WD pickup, the other a Focus wagon. Each is the second one of these they have purchased. The Ranger has rusted incredibly in the frame/chassis area - the body is actually in good condition but the rear half of the frame is essentially gone. He had to get some outfit to splice in new sections somehow to hold the shock mounts, the gas tank, and spare tire carrier. Unbelievable. The Focus has body rust thanks to poor paint prep. He took it to a shop to have them fix some rust spots (surface only luckily) and they called to tell him that on certain parts they were finding no primer under the paint. Plus the gas tank has rusted through and needed to be replaced - amazed they still use metal tanks, thought most had gone to plastic. The previous Focus had water leaks galore and the dealer ended up removing the seats and carpet, only to find no seam sealer anywhere on the floorpan. That was the reason they traded it on the current one as they figured with all that water that had gotten in things would go bad in a hurry. They were already having some intermittent electrical problems that they figured were a result of connectors getting wet, etc.
These sort of things scare me away from Ford. Almost all of their interiors all look very cheap and plasticky, and bear the symptoms of dramatic cost-cutting. On the current Mustang the interior is enough to drive me away. I think it goes well beyond that and now I really question the overall quality of their product.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
They way recalls work is that the component with a problem is tracked to VINs of vehicles assembled. The components are tracked according to shipments received, not usually at the individual item level. So one car turns up with the wrong part installed, but the manufacturer can't tell if a lot of cars have the same problem or just that one, because all they can determine is that a batch of components in that shipment were installed on a bunch of cars - in this case, 8200 cars. It may be that all 8200 have the wrong parts installed, or it may also be that only one car has the wrong part installed. They usually can't trace it back beyond that level of detail.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
I think every car maker builds its share of lemons; what makes or breaks the ownership experience is -in most cases- the overall competence and support of the selling/servicing dealer. That is why, as I've said before, I'm extremely reluctant to look outside the BMW, Jeep, or Mazda brands...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'm ashamed to admit I like the style of the old SL sedan but I would really like to buy one of the later SC 3 door coupes, manual tranny. Quirky looks.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Thanks for the rundown ab. I thought Ford was doing better than that lately. Guess a short stint in a rental car is a lot different than owning one. I'll beware!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I have a friend who bought a new Honda Accord for himself and a Civic for his wife. Both look beautiful inside and out. Hope to get a ride in it soon. I don't hear about too many recalls or problems with Hondas. If I was looking for a good reliable car in the mid price range I would certainly consider a Honda. I have heard some people love their Nissans and Hyundais and Kias too....so lots of good reliable makes of cars to choose from.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"Thanks for the rundown ab. I thought Ford was doing better than that lately. Guess a short stint in a rental car is a lot different than owning one. I'll beware!"
Driver, we are all aware that many recalls for most vehicles are done quietly without the hooplah that GM is experiencing. That's because BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, etc., identify a problem and quickly take corrective action well before that problem negatively affects public relations. But when a manufacturer hides the problem for 10+ years like GM and Toyota did (Toyota just denied it was a problem for many years and did not respond assertively to correct it), it creates significant negative publicity.
Ford and Firestone had that same problem with the Explorer. Ford did not respond decisively or assertively to the roll-over problem until it was too late.
My 2009 Mercedes had a recall for what it called a potential steering problem in some of its E Class vehicles. I received a letter and I made an appointment. My car did not have the specific defective parts installed, so it only resulted in a quick inspection. But there was no hooplah because of the manner in which Mercedes handled it.
It's when a company intentionally hides or refuses to respond to a potential problem that trouble ensues.
Like I previously posted, due to major problems I had with Audi and BMW, I have lost trust in those companies and due to GM's behavior in this series of recalls accounting for almost 12 million vehicles in just 3 months, it will take a long time before I could bring myself to buy a GM product.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
" I don't hear about too many recalls or problems with Hondas. If I was looking for a good reliable car in the mid price range I would certainly consider a Honda. I have heard some people love their Nissans and Hyundais and Kias too....so lots of good reliable makes of cars to choose from."
Honda has had several recall recently, however the reason you don't hear much about them is because they handle things adroitly at Honda.
You also forgot about Kia and Hyundai being chastised by the EPA for falsely claiming MPG averages well above actual average MPG. I am not positive, but weren't Genesis models recently recalled?
There is no such thing as a perfectly manufactured car - most of them at one time or another have defects or problems. That's the reason for the warranty. It's how the manufacturers handle widespread vehicle problems that gets all the attention.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
>
Keep in mind that Ranger could be a 20 year old example and there hasn't been a focus wagon in 5 or so years.
If you want a focus group of 1, my 2011 Explorer has been perfect. 38K miles and only minor warranty issues. Turns 25 mpg on highway trips and IMHO, high quality materials.
"If you want a focus group of 1, my 2011 Explorer has been perfect. 38K miles and only minor warranty issues. Turns 25 mpg on highway trips and IMHO, high quality materials."
The Explorer is, without doubt, one of the best SUV's on the road today. Ford has put tremendous engineering and technical advances into that vehicle. If I was in the market for an SUV, that would be my choice!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Agreed. I have nothing against recalls....they are a good thing up to a point. Anyone and any company can make a mistake, it is in how the mistake is rectified.
I know Honda has had recalls as have almost all car makers, but, I still trust the Honda name....I know of several people who have had good reliable service from their Hondas.
Rob, thanks for those added comments about Ford. Those were obviously older Ford models being referred to and any reviews of newer models I have read seem to be pretty positive (possible exception is MKZ but it gets pretty high ratings from the owners at Edmunds). I just read a review of Hyundai Tuson and though the review was positive it mentioned the Escape was the leader in smaller CUVs.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"Those were obviously older Ford models being referred to and any reviews of newer models I have read seem to be pretty positive (possible exception is MKZ but it gets pretty high ratings from the owners at Edmunds)"
I don't know how many Lincoln's they sell a year, but I don't think very many compared to Cadillac. Lincoln needs to be freshened up to compete well with other luxury cars.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
As the original post said, one is a 2006 and the other is a 2007. Both are junk.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Lincoln sells about 90K a year and Cadillac almost double. Lincolns numbers aren't too bad really. They have a prestigious nameplate, at a low price. Sales numbers aren't always the most important number, profit can be more important and Ford doesn't spend big bucks developing Lincoln....just use Ford designs with new skin.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I was just browsing web and came across Lexus of Tampa Bay. $910 delivery fee. This must be a record, at least it's highest I've seen so far. Wow, just ridiculous, no shame. Car retail industry will never cease to amaze me. Florida sets no legal limits on those fees, so it seems sky is one for Lexus of Tampa Bay. Government says there is no inflation... Right.
I thought I got over that issue already, but no, they will alway find a way to get my blood pressure up.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"I was just browsing web and came across Lexus of Tampa Bay. $910 delivery fee."
Yep, Florida puts no limits on dealer fees. The last dealership I worked for had a $799 dealer fee on every car sold - new or used! Outrageous is the word for those fees.
My Mercedes dealership has a $699 dealer fee - still no fun - but if you buy a car for an out-the-door price (includes fees, taxes, title, tags), you have some negotiating ability on those fees. But they cannot reduce the fee for one customer - it must be equally applied to every sale - that Florida requires.
The fees are pre- printed on every buyer's order - every dealer must comply if they charge dealer fees.
Several dealers down here have no fees, but when you check their prices, the out-the-door price is no better than the dealers with fees. Interesting, isn't it?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
ab said his Ford Ranger 4X4 is rusty junk. But the resale value on them is strong since they are no longer produced. Drive it down here and it will be scooped up quickly, rust or not.
Also said Mustang interior made him walk away. Try driving one, they are very comfortable. My back used to give me fits, but the Mustang...I can drive all day with no problems. My only complaint is the steering wheel doesn't telescope. Tilt yes, tele no. And there is no place to put stuff. Tiny console and no cubby holes for small items. If you mean the back seat, forget it. Just act like it's not even there, however it does fold down to make a large trunk. Count me still happy with the Mustang.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
"If you mean the back seat, forget it. Just act like it's not even there, however it does fold down to make a large trunk. Count me still happy with the Mustang."
Making believe the rear seat isn't there is hilarious! I have similar thoughts about the rear seat in my 4-door coupe - seats fold down also but the trunk is huge in its own right.
I have tried twice to get into the back seat (remember it has it's own entry door) but to no avail. I just can't seem to get my feet inside (size 12) no matter how hard I try. Kids and small people will fit, but no 6 footers, that's for sure.
As for the Mustang, so long as you enjoy them, Mako, then the car is perfect for you - no matter what others say. Oldfarmer would love to get his hands on one and so long as the 2015's are reasonably priced, he'll be driving one before the year is out.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I would expect it in case of knowledgeable and skilled buyer, as money is fongible. If one knows how much it should cost, it doesn't matter where it comes from. It really is about those who know less, they basically get skinned.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I seem to remember one of the sales dudes saying the dealer fees were just one way of re figuring the gross profit on the deal and thus screwing the salesman out of some commission. Otherwise why do something so hokey it will obviously tick off customers when it gets sprung on them. Or do customers just roll over and accept them?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
My Eclipse also does not have a telescoping wheel and if ever a car needed one this is it. You have to be part ape when the seat is a far back as I put it. My old Lincoln has the wheel right up in front of you which I like much better. The 2005 Mustang I rented was also ok without a telescoping wheel.
The 2015 Mustang will have one. Mako1a, have you seen the new yellow color for the 2015. I read it's a special three step paint. Looks good in pictures. That color with a few black accent stripes should be killer.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Even though from what my wife says I may be driving it to meetings with my divorce attorney.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
lol, but at least you will enjoy the drive!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It's my brother's truck, not mine. I doubt it will pass inspection next time unless he finds a friendly shop. Frame rustout tends to get noticed.
I did drive one, a GT, a couple of years ago. It was a gas and I had no issue with the comfort. I just couldn't see myself being happy with the materials over the long term. Lots of hard black plastic that was not very welcoming.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Boy, miss a day.... I was up in Wapppinger's Falls, NY visiting and letting my friend and his son work on the Mazda. At 101K replaced the original plugs... One of those darn cars where you have to open the manifold to get to the back plugs. Not me, thanks. Had to replace the slave cylinder for the clutch. You'd think in this day and age they'd have a better name for it, maybe the domestic servant cylinder of for a more elegant touch, the butler cylinder.... Anyway, that and some touchup paint work and for 101K the car looks and runs remarkably fine. The son says he can hear the starter going and may want ne coil packs on the plugs. We will see.
On all these car issues I do find that how badly or well we think of a particular experience tends to come from personal experience, thus my very negative feelings toward Ford and VW. I will grant you that these were old issues. Once I see some folks talking about VW's that have remarkably dependable electrical systems I'll have to pass. Both companies had corporate customer service that was torture that ended in no resolution.
Honda had been great for me. Toyota and Nissan have been fine for me but I never had an issue reach far, I had one Chrysler and not a problem other than for six months of the year it felt like a rental with a fantastic sound system. In the warm weather and the top down it could do no wrong. No mechanical issues. I showed the dealer peel on a wheel and he replaced all four wheels so they'd match perfectly. Didn't cost a cent.
I love the Mazda. I feel good that at least one of my cars is a make that's made roadburner's garage.... No issues with Mazda corporate and on a ten year old car with 101K not expecting any.
Just on appearance I'll take a Ford over almost any competing Chevy, but I'd take a Buick or an ATS over any Lincoln. The fact that Lincoln only sells half of what Caddy does is the smallest part of their problem. They've got no product. Gussied up Fords. Anyone who is even remotely a car person knows that. I think the fact that they sell as many as they do is living proof that you can indeed fool some of the people all of the time.
I heard similar things, as commission was traditionally based on "price" without fees. Another reason is probably ability to run ads with screamer price that is not such a screamer when you add the fee. Basically selling "at invoice" and still collecting a nice profit, so "everybody wins".
I have always classified businesses into two categories: one sells a product/service at a transparent price (because they are confident enough in
it, they don't need games), another sells illusion of lower cost. Slight of hand here, little shuffle there. They know, if they showed you true cost, you may walk away. The effort goes not to show the product virtues (the manufacturers would take care of that) but to obscuring its real cost, so it looks less expensive. Car dealers are not the only ones. Telecoms come in mind. Manufacturers do that, too, when they sometimes advertise "starting at" price that does not include their destination charge, which we all know is not an optional item, it can only vary by the region. That is even more dishonest than dealers, in my opinion.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
>
Interesting that you mentioned that. The cell phone business is filled with those hidden fees and charges. Start-up fee, integration fee, maintenance fee, etc. My $50.00 a month T-Mobile bill runs $62.00 because of federal and state taxes and fees - not T-Mobile's fault. But I have had bad experiences with other cell phone providers.
When I worked at the Lexus Dealership, the salesmen were paid on the total net profit, which included the dealer fee. That was fair. The second dealership I worked for did not pay the salesmen on the dealer fee profit, which in my opinion was very unfair considering the fee was $799.00!
I am very aware that I end up paying for the dealer fees at my Mercedes Dealership, but they have to make something on my purchase - only right and fair. They get reimbursed from MBUSA for my USAA discount ($3500+, depending on the model) and the Mercedes Benz Club of America discount ($500.00), so I know they are not losing that money.
If a dealer fee is to be charged, I firmly believe that $199 should easily cover the cost of doing the paperwork for the office staff (like applying for the titles, tags and registration, mailing expenses, etc.) It really is about those who know less, they basically get skinned.. Anything more than that is unfair.
@dino001 said: It really is about those who know less, they basically get skinned.
I agree. Most of us here on this forum are pretty savvy when it comes to buying cars. We know exactly how to go about purchasing/leasing a new car with little or no concerns. It's the buyers who do not know how to buy a new car that these fees affect.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
A local dealer is advertising "A new way to drive a new Buick for only $10,000. Just come on in and let us explain all the details". I don't suppose this could be a lease, duh ?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree, 200 bucks would be more than enough to cover actual cost of delivery pertaining to clerical work and other small things that may not be covered in the basic gross markup of the product. Anything beyond that is simply another form of old ADP (ADM) sticker that was so common in 80s and 90s. And it has just the same effect, btw - no net effect on the informed, but nicely marking up the naive.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Who knows, maybe the owner's covers pays the rest. Or Fairy Grandmother. You never know
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Try to find out if it is a lease....I am betting that it is (they must have details in fine print or on website). I have seen leases advertised that way, Lincoln being the most recent, something like $350 a month for 36 months or one time payment of $12000 if my memory is correct. Actually sounded like a pretty good deal, especially for a business person who could write it off.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Of course, fees charged by the telecons are real Government fees. Document fees by dealers are not real fees. Rather, they are a deception to entice unsophisticated buyers into believing a lower price. And Florida is by far the most deceptive state. Makes a person wonder about Florida's elected officials.
Even at $50 a month, I would think that most of that is profit for T-Mobile. The cell business is mostly fixed-cost based, with infrastructure costs being the main part. Once that is built it gets amortized over time, and once that is done, then it becomes profit. Their variable costs are marketing, tech support, etc, so it is not pure profit for them, but I am pricing mobile plans right now and the cost is just ridiculous. And based on how much all the cell companies spend on marketing, they must be swamped with cash.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
"And Florida is by far the most deceptive state. Makes a person wonder about Florida's elected officials."
You would think that these fees charged by Florida dealers would negatively affect car sales - but it doesn't! The world's highest volume dealers for Lexus, BMW, Volkswagen, Hyuandai, Kia, Toyota, Infiniti and Audi are located here in Southeastern Florida. There may be others, but these dealerships have been tops in sales for years.
I believe the reason for this phenomena I due to their out-the-door pricing being better than in the other regions. Sales taxes are around 6% - 6,5%, which are quite low when compared to most states. Also, vehicle registration and plates run less than $50 a year.
That's why so many snowbirds buy and register their vehicles in Florida rather than the Northeast.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
well, most of Florida is not convenient to other states. Plus quite often you get screwed on taxes or DMV if you go out of state and bring it back. Not sure if that plays in Florida
but since from what you are saying it is more of a ploy to shaft salesmen out of commissions, and to let them deceptively advertise (which does get people in the door), as long as the OTD cost is good, no reason the fee should matter to buyers.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Ths may be true. While annoying with their deceptiveness, the total costs of purchase might as well still be low enogh. It's just that - annoying.
2018 430i Gran Coupe