Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Stories from the Sales Frontlines

1198319841986198819892003

Comments

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited May 2014

    Something is wrong with this editor window. When typing quickly on my desktop, it clearly skips characters. It's is not the keyboard - I tried same typing on my Word editor and it doesn't skip, the text comes out fine. It's just inside of this edit window, only when typing fairly quick. The characters are random, very frequent, almost every word typed, when typing at decent speed.

    If it keeps doing that, I will quit using my desktop for Edmunds posts. Does anybody else experience this? It is beyond annoying. Absolutely atrocious. Can't stand it.

    I think it may have to do with speed of the server (program) inside of this editor window and the autosave feature. Just seems can't handle the speed.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386

    I have a theory about document fees here anyway. I've gotten the "law says we have to charge everyone the same," which herein NJ is a flat out lie. I've gotten the"it's there to keep us from charging white people less than,blacks." Oh, so you're telling me you're a racist but the state is preventing you from doing that?

    I look at the fee ( say it's $350) I'll say I do t care what that number is but this here number at the bottom, of the contract has to be $350 less or I'm gone. It's never failed.

    Mostly I buy used cars from places that don't do doc fees. If they try to throw one on there I say give me the paperwork; I'll do it myself.

    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805

    @ab348 said:
    Even at $50 a month, I would think that most of that is profit for T-Mobile. The cell business is mostly fixed-cost based, with infrastructure costs being the main part. Once that is built it gets amortized over time, and once that is done, then it becomes profit. Their variable costs are marketing, tech support, etc, so it is not pure profit for them, but I am pricing mobile plans right now and the cost is just ridiculous. And based on how much all the cell companies spend on marketing, they must be swamped with cash.

    Except that every 2-3 years technology changes and the cell companies have to upgrade their equipment or add new equipment to keep up with demand for bandwidth.

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @dino001‌ said:

    "I think it may have to do with speed of the server (program) inside of this editor window and the autosave feature. Just seems can't handle the speed."

    I would imagine you are just too fast for the program. Every so often I'll use my PC to post to the forums, but mostly I use my iPhone. The program does not function well with mobile apps - that's why you will notice I have to respond manually with quotation marks since the (") doesn't work with a mobile phone. But it could be due to the tremendous numbers of posts SFTSF has saved. Remember Kirstie said they are going to eliminate this thread because it is slowing down all the other threads. I think she said she will let the 10,000th post apply and then they are eradicating it.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191

    I see, that must be it.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618

    @abacomike said:
    You would think that these fees charged by Florida dealers would negatively affect car sales - but it doesn't! The world's highest volume dealers for Lexus, BMW, Volkswagen, Hyuandai, Kia, Toyota, Infiniti and Audi are located here in Southeastern Florida.

    Absolutely. The folks in God's waiting room often have quite a bit of change in their accounts and don't wish to be bothered with actual thinking. Go figure.

    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @cdnpinhead‌ said:

    "Absolutely. The folks in God's waiting room often have quite a bit of change in their accounts and don't wish to be bothered with actual thinking. Go figure."

    if you truly believe that, then you've never tried to sell cars to them. They are the most difficult group to negotiate a deal with. They "penny pinch" every dollar they can.

    I remember losing a sale to an older couple because the manager refused to take another $50 off the price of the car. They had gotten their initial price, but then wanted more.

    So you need to realize that the customers down here are tough negotiators - tough indeed!!!

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    "FAILURE TO RECALL - GM"

    CNBC is running a new investigative report right now and will be repeated at 11:00 PM EDT tonight. It accuses GM of refusing to come clean as of this date. GM refuses to call a death caused by the faulty ignition switch "a death".

    So it appears that GM is still concealing the truth as of this date. They are still hiding the truth.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,588
    edited May 2014

    @abacomike said:
    You would think that these fees charged by Florida dealers would negatively affect car sales - but it doesn't! The world's highest volume dealers for Lexus, BMW, Volkswagen, Hyuandai, Kia, Toyota, Infiniti and Audi are located here in Southeastern Florida. There may be others, but these dealerships have been tops in sales for years.

    Do you think the older demographic ages make a difference in the number of car buyers in Florida? They may be tight with their money but they buy a lot of cars.

    Check this, it is surprising:

    An analysis of new vehicle buyers shows that their average age was 51 years old in 2011, three years older than buyers in 2007. In 2011, 40% of all buyers were aged 55 years or older, up from about 30% just four years earlier. And, in keeping with much commentary about today’s youth, in 2011, only 11% of all new vehicle buyers were aged 34 years or younger, down from almost 16% four years earlier. Perhaps today’s young people indeed do have less interest in cars or perhaps they don’t have the money for a new car, or both.

    Among the makes on the market today, every OEM is now catering to an older buyer than back in 2007, with the exception of Buick. This OEM has lowered the average age of its buyers from 62 to 59, though the current age is still the second oldest after Lincoln buyers (60 years). Buick has brought in more young buyers by dramatically altering its product portfolio, adding the Regal and placing much greater emphasis on the Enclave (average age: 56 for both) while discontinuing the Lucerne (average age: 70 years). In 2011, the Regal and Enclave accounted for more than half of all Buick retail deliveries. Going forward, Buick will benefit from the recently-launched compact Verano, though the age of the Verano buyer so far (59 years) is higher than the Buick team probably would like. Polk’s Automotive Forecast indicates Buick has additional new products and powertrain enhancements in the pipeline, which should attract younger buyers.

    Here's the rest of the article:
    Age of car buyers
    It is surprising how many new cars us older people buy!!!!

    I think if you buy a car out of state you will have a lot of extra work lining up insurance and you may end up paying Florida state taxes on top of that anyway.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    @abacomike said:
    CNBC is running a new investigative report right now and will be repeated at 11:00 PM EDT tonight. It accuses GM of refusing to come clean as of this date. GM refuses to call a death caused by the faulty ignition switch "a death".
    So it appears that GM is still concealing the truth as of this date. They are still hiding the truth.

    Sounds like sensationalism journalism on their part. The whole ignition switch thing has been treated to a good amount of transparency--much more than NBC's big friends have shown us.

    I know CNBC is trying to turn themselves from having no worthwhile programming after the markets go off in o a cable channel with some interesting shows, but this isn't the way to do it.

    The recalls have come fast and furious as GM is making sure that each and every minor thing is being handled fully. Other companies have recalls and proportionally they may be just as high a percentage of annual output as GM's (and Toyota) in normal years.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @imidazol97‌ said:

    "Sounds like sensationalism journalism on their part. "

    Obviously you are not watching this. You pass it off as sensationalism!! It sure isn't!!!

    Perhaps you should first watch the program at 11:00 PM EDT before passing it off as something less than it is. You surprise me, imid!!!!!!!!

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited May 2014

    I disagree. There would have been no case if GM did what was right. The issue is not the defect, it's GM knowing and doing nothing. They're not first, not last, but they clearly did not do the right thing and now paying. The argument about others is irrelevant at this time. I'm no big fan of personal injury attorneys, but this is one of the few recent cases they deserve all the suits. When you redesign a part without part number change, you deserve to be plundered and somebody should go to prison. It's a clear coverup.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913

    @driver100 said:
    And, in keeping with much commentary about today’s youth, in 2011, only 11% of all new vehicle buyers were aged 34 years or younger, down from almost 16% four years earlier. Perhaps today’s young people indeed do have less interest in cars or perhaps they don’t have the money for a new car, or both.

    And here is a related story but with a twist, a little long but please read to the end.

    A young man was getting ready to graduate from college. For many months he had admired a beautiful sports car in a dealer’s showroom, and knowing his father could well afford it, he told him that was all he wanted.

    As Graduation Day approached, the young man awaited signs that his father had purchased the car. Finally, on the morning of his graduation, his father called him into his private study, told him how proud he was to have such a fine son, and how much he loved him. He handed him a beautifully wrapped gift box.

    Curious, but somewhat disappointed, the young man opened the box and found a lovely, leather-bound Bible, with his name embossed in gold. Angrily, he raised his voice to his father and said, "With all your money you give me a Bible?" He stormed out of the house, leaving the Bible behind.

    Many years passed and the young man was very successful in business. He had a beautiful home and wonderful family, but realized his father was very old. He thought perhaps he should go to him. He had not seen him since that graduation day. But before he could make arrangements, he received a telegram telling him his father had passed away, and willed all of his possessions to him. He needed to come home immediately and take care of things.

    When he arrived at his father's house, sadness and regret filled his heart. He began to search through his father's important documents and saw the Bible, new, just as he had left it years ago. With tears, he opened the Bible and began to turn the pages. His father had carefully underlined a verse, Matt 7:11, "And if ye, being evil, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father which is in Heaven, give to those who ask Him?"

    As he read those words, a car key dropped from the back of the Bible. It had a tag with the dealers name, the same dealer who had the sports car he had desired. On the tag was the date of his graduation, and the words... PAID IN FULL.

    How many times do we miss God's blessings because they are not packaged as we expected?

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    @abacomike said:

    Obviously you are not watching this.

    I try to avoid watching NBC programs because of their lack of true journalism.
    Walter Cronkite they are not. Recall the pickup saddle tanks where the TV
    crew rigged little rocket motors to ignite on impact to be sure any spill from the
    side tanks in the collision caught fire. That was NBC, nicht wahr?

    As for GM, I've watched the scapegoating here as well as toyota's. First, Both are
    large producers of automobiles. They will have defects from suppliers as
    well as defects of design. Because they are large there will be more. The GM
    problems are being handled capably by Mary Barra. Second, many recalls are
    to check a number of cars for a defect when only a few may have it.

    Often a smaller producer will be able to cover up defects with what has been
    called a secret recall. This works really well when the owners have been
    scared into thinking they can only have their car serviced at the company
    store, meaning the dealership. Honda and toyo were especially effective at
    this thinking during the 90s. Hence they garnered a reputation of high reliability
    because many people never knew of flaws fixed on their vehicle. Along with
    this they had a higher profit margin and could service failures even out of warranty
    with their dealer's cooperation. Look at how many Hondas/Accords had
    transmission problems through the long period. But they kept customers happy.

    I won't go through a search for recalls for the smaller producers, including the
    premium autos, and post them here, but let's find a source for the data for
    the percentage of cars recalled excluding the current GM year where they
    are recalling everything to be extra careful, as they should be doing. I suspect
    someone knows the source for that data on the net: I don't find it.

    And there are some things like the BMW doors that lock someone inside
    the vehicle and they can't get out unless they are able to use something to
    break glass. No horn even!!! Ridiculous. Imagine the awful death suffering due to heat for that young
    girl trapped inside a German vehicle. How long did it take before she passed
    out sitting there in a public parking area? Is there an outcry for recalling and
    replacing the controls for those "double-locking" doors and horn.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191

    Phil Lebeau (the reporter on the CNBC piece) is one of the most respected journalists when it comes to automotive industry reporting. His pieces are usually thorough and for years he actually was showing good partiality to US manufacturers. This was not a "hit piece". It was a piece about something important that happened and is a subject of conversations on Wall Street, Congress and many homes.

    BTW, the CNBC piece did not put sole blame on GM. They pointed at NHTSA as a second big culprit (because NHTSA had dots in front of them years ago and seems it simply refused to connect them). But yes, they listed number of things your precious darling did that were simply unconscionable for a normal human being. Like getting having an already signed contract reneged at the last minute by demanding 50% (FIFTY PERCENT) price cut on (unrelated to the recall) part. This is not "just business" aggressive price control - it is ransom. Even "most evil of them all" Walmart doesn't demand 50% price cuts AFTER they sign the deal.

    If I knew any of my business associate did anything close to that, I would definitely walk away from such a partner. You know if it can happen to somebody else, it can happen to you. As I mentioned already, the most damning of all is the fact that the part was redesigned without assigning a new part number. That is a clear cover up, even Mary Barra said in front of Congress that such a thing simply doesn't happen. Well, it did. BTW, Delphi in original submittal pointed to GM that the part did not meet GMs own specifications, but GM then told them to make it anyway. As a structural engineer, I will tell you it is absolutely beyond shocking to me.

    The excuses like "look at others, they did it, too"... Then of course, we look at details, they did not exactly do this, too. They actually did something else. "Secret recall" as you called it, nevertheless a recall. GM would not do even a secret recall. Best they could do is a service bulletin.

    Post-warranty service by Honda or others - yeah, and what did GM do at the same time? Often denied even valid warranty claims, try to get a goodwill repair on something like $40K-50K Cadillac, let alone $15K Cobalt. Hondas/Toyo deep pockets, you say? Whose fault was that GM was broke long before it was legally bankrupt, but the management and unions acted like everything is fine? In fact, managers were getting nice "performance" bonuses and unions constantly claimed the money is in this big vault and they're here to help you get it.

    I was just warming up to GM as a possibility. Would have been a long shot, but at least some of their product might get on the "long list". Guess where it's going. Back to waiting room. Let's see what they'll do with it.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    @dino001 said:

    they listed number of things ****your precious darling ****did that were simply unconscionable for a normal human being.

    That seems to have been directed at me.

    It's best to disagree without being disagreeable. B)
    End of discussion. :(

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855

    This is the second time in as many days I've see this about unsold cars sitting in large holding areas waiting to go to buyers only there are few buyers so they continue to sit.
    vincelewis.net/unsoldcars.html

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674

    @mako1a said:
    This is the second time in as many days I've see this about unsold cars sitting in large holding areas waiting to go to buyers only there are few buyers so they continue to sit.
    vincelewis.net/unsoldcars.html

    I'm having trouble getting that link to open in Mozilla. It keeps saying Problem Loading Page.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    Had an rare experience Friday. Ate with family at the historic Golden Lamb hotel restaurant in Lebanon that GG had mentioned a week ago. Thought of Abaco's luck at the casino as we passed the Racino near the interstate, but didn't stop to try out our luck.

    http://www.goldenlamb.com/pages/inn/

    Went to Cincinnati Premium Outlets which is an outdoor mall with walkways between shops with a metal roof over part of the walkway. Rain just started as son and I left one store to meet wife. Heard a crack and saw a blue flash overhead. Then a part of second later more flash and thunder almost immediately. The metal roof had been hit by lightning. We didn't feel any of the usual hair-raising tingle associated with being near the strike because we were under and inside the tent-like roofing which acted as a Faraday cage.

    My wife was standing under the awning of The North Face and saw the balls of fire moving on the next metal roofing area. Scary.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278

    I did not see the CNBC item and other than a promo it is not yet up on their website. However I would say at this stage any "investigation" by a journalist is going to be speculative and sensationalistic at best since nobody yet knows all the facts of how this came to be, and so an easy villain like big bad GM will by necessity have to be created.

    Mike, of course GM is not going to take responsibility for a death. What company would? What were the other factors involved? Was the driver drunk or stoned? Were they wearing a seat belt? Were they speeding? While there are certainly circumstances where the engine shutting off would cause an accident, there are a lot of others where it doesn't. The steering still works, the brakes still work, they just take a bit more effort. There are all sorts of factors that would need to be discovered in a court of law before that conclusion could be reached.

    As fr the bean counters running the old GM, that is hardly news. Everyone knows that. Just look at Lutz's books.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191

    @imidazol97 said:

    Sorry, got a bit excited. You do tend to defend GM more than others, but it was a cheap shot. I apologize. Should have kept that for myself.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited May 2014

    @ab348 said:
    The steering still works, the brakes still work, they just take a bit more effort.

    That would have been true 30 years ago, when so-called small cars weighed less than 2000 lbs. Today it is very hard to stop and steer those vehicles without help of hydraulic power. BTW, it would be even worse with newest models, as many vehicles today have electromechanical power steering (drive by wire), i.e. it would have near zero steering if car shuts off. This is price we pay in our quest for efficiency (fuel savings) and convenience (computers). This would be comparable to situation when old World War II fighter loses power, it can still glide of a while, whereas newest F22 (or even F16, or F18) would crash down, as they can't even fly without computer (their aerodynamic profile is unstable).

    Moreover, sudden change in vehicle handling characteristics can be dangerous for even experienced driver. Most of those shown there seems very young (not a surprise, as Cobalt, Ion were intended for that population segment), probably very inexperienced, so such change in characteristic would be a major, if not decisive factor in their demise.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    @ab348 said:
    Mike, of course GM is not going to take responsibility for a death. What company would?

    The first thing an attorney will tell someone is not to admit fault. Auto accident, e.g.. School district with all the things their principals and administrators do that are improper. Police department where one of its officers caused an auto accident leaving an elementary-aged child next to helpless being schooled on a cot in the classroom. The Church moving assets to avoid payment for its pedophile priests.

    GM is handling this very well. I'd not be surprised to see criminal charges for a few decisions by certain people long ago. And I'd expect more shifts.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191

    @imidazol97 said:
    I'd not be surprised to see criminal charges for a few decisions by certain people long ago.

    I think that chief engineer that approved the new part without new part number is as good as in prison, unless he rolls over on higher level execs.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    @dino001 said:
    Sorry, got a bit excited. You do tend to defend GM more than others, but it was a cheap shot. I apologize. Should have kept that for myself.

    Thanks. I understand. I have no ties to GM other than having had several good vehicles, and I believe they are scapegoated beyond their culpability level for past sins. It's like chickens pecking a chicken which has a bloody area showing for some reason.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120

    @imidazol97 said:
    Had an rare experience Friday. Ate with family at the historic Golden Lamb hotel restaurant in Lebanon that GG had mentioned a week ago. Thought of Abaco's luck at the casino as we passed the Racino near the interstate, but didn't stop to try out our luck.

    http://www.goldenlamb.com/pages/inn/

    Went to Cincinnati Premium Outlets which is an outdoor mall with walkways between shops with a metal roof over part of the walkway. Rain just started as son and I left one store to meet wife. Heard a crack and saw a blue flash overhead. Then a part of second later more flash and thunder almost immediately. The metal roof had been hit by lightning. We didn't feel any of the usual hair-raising tingle associated with being near the strike because we were under and inside the tent-like roofing which acted as a Faraday cage.

    My wife was standing under the awning of The North Face and saw the balls of fire moving on the next metal roofing area. Scary.

    Imid....that is "hair raising". That whole area you were around has really grown in the last 2-3 years. As you mentioned, there is the "casino" (I haven't been in it, yet), the "Premium" outlet mall, and it's all close to Lebanon, Ohio. We like going up there. How was the food at the Golden Lamb? Did you look through the place and see all the rooms the President's and 19th and 20th century "celebs" stayed?

    There also happens to be a prison not far from there. Obviously, we don't heear much about it (unless it's "bad news").

    One of my favorite cars shows is held up there, too. It's also a Blues Festival, a BBQ festival, all sort of rolled up into one. It's usually in August. Well worth the trip.

    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278

    @dino001 said:
    BTW, it would be even worse with newest models, as many vehicles today have electromechanical power steering (drive by wire), i.e. it would have near zero steering if car shuts off. This is price we pay in our quest for efficiency (fuel savings) and convenience (computers).

    I don't know how electric power steering works. I assume there is still some mechanical connection to the steering gear? If not, if it is truly drive by wire, it would be interesting to see what kind of redundancy is built in.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388

    @ab348 said:
    I don't know how electric power steering works. I assume there is still some mechanical connection to the steering gear? If not, if it is truly drive by wire, it would be interesting to see what kind of redundancy is built in.

    Most of the cases that CNBC investigated involving deaths or serious injuries were all either women or teenage girls. They do not have the same leg and arm strength as men in trying to keep a car going in a straight line without power steering or power brakes. The cases identified resulted in serious injuries or death because the air bags did not deploy since the ignition was not on.

    The CNBC piece aired twice last night was not sensationalized journalism! I found it fair, objective and quite probing. The investigative reporter did not villainize GM - but brought out the fact that one of their engineers changed one of the ignition parts but did not change the part number. When he testified before Congress, he denied making that decision - but CNBC had a copy of the order signed by that same man. So he downright lied.

    CNBC also showed how the NTHSA is also at fault for not identifying the problem by putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. When NTHSA found repeated crashes with air bags not deploying, they opened up an investigation. When it was brought to their attention by families whose children or parents were killed or injured in those accidents and that the ignition was in "ACC" in stead of "ON", in all of those accidents, the NTHSA said that it was not part of their investigation and that they should contact GM for possible recall. They claimed their investigation was centered around air-bags not deploying, not ignition problems. Unbelievable!!!

    The major thrust of the CNBC piece was mostly historical in bringing people up to date as to what happened and why.

    As for corrective action, dealerships claimed that they are not getting the needed parts to correct the problem, thus they are "slowly" correcting the problem as parts become available. Many owners of cars that were included in the recalls did not even know about the recall (25%) since they had not received a letter from GM, at least that's what was claimed.

    CNBC did not accuse GM or the NTHSA or anyone else - they merely reported facts, data, and interviews with current and former GM employees.

    One part that was interesting was the fact that Delphi or something like that (the company producing the defective or incorrect part) informed GM that the part did not meet GM's specifications and needed to be changed. The response from GM was - the part is satisfactory - we will continue to use them. Eventually, the part was changed, but no one knew outside the company (except for Delphi or something like that name - the company producing the ignition part(s)) that it had been changed and no new part number was issued.

    Once you view the CNBC program "with an objective demeanor", you will see what I am talking about. I found the piece interesting, informative, unfortunate, and well presented.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388

    @ab348 said:
    I did not see the CNBC item and other than a promo it is not yet up on their website. However I would say at this stage any "investigation" by a journalist is going to be speculative and sensationalistic at best since nobody yet knows all the facts of how this came to be, and so an easy villain like big bad GM will by necessity have to be created.

    Mike, of course GM is not going to take responsibility for a death. What company would?

    There were other factors, according to the report, but the ignition setting was in "ACC", not "ON", and the air-bags did not deploy. So GM did not count that as a death in their reports because of other factors. So you are correct in that assumption.

    As for you opinion that "...any investigation by a journalist is going to be speculative and sensationalistic at best since nobody yet knows all the facts of how this came to be..." is fine - it's your opinion. But I totally disagree with that point of view. Until you see the CNBC piece, your comments are opinions - and you are entitled to your own opinion. After you see the CNBC piece, it is "my opinion" that your comments and opinions will continue to be skewed because of your statements, opinions, and comments prior to seeing the piece. You will be looking for contradictions and "sensationalism" as you watch the piece.

    So, please, be as objective as you possibly can while watching the presentation. I would appreciate that, thanks.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited May 2014

    Yes, it was Delphi. It's one of the largest automotive part supplier in the US. I agree with you, Mike. The piece was quite thorough. Again, Phil Lebeau is not known for sensationalistic pieces. He is a respected financial news reporter in machinery (automotive, aerospace, and such). He's done a very sympathetic GM piece for CNBC in 2007 or 2008, it was a few months before bankruptcy about their possible way out of the rut. Similar with Ford - he's done one about them, too. Both of those were actually very sympathetic. I think he might have done one on Toyota's problems, too, but not so sure about that one.

    BTW, the issue with those girls may have to do not just with their body strength, but also with their experience and skills. Any driver dealing with loss of over 80% of steering and braking would find it difficult, let alone a 17-year-old girl who just learned driving.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191

    @ab348 said:
    I don't know how electric power steering works. I assume there is still some mechanical connection to the steering gear? If not, if it is truly drive by wire, it would be interesting to see what kind of redundancy is built in.

    I think there may not be anymore, but can't tell for sure. I only remember seeing those test electric vehicles 10 years ago with steering shown as it can be placed anywhere exactly because it works like a joystick. Not sure if that's the same thing, or some hybrid.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    edited May 2014

    I believe this is a short version of Phil Lebeau CNBC story. After watching this, I believe the best solution would be a keyless Push-Start system. Might be expensive yes, but it would be a permanent solution.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqRhRdwLrI

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191

    There may of course be new issues with that. What I heard the most scary thing about electronics in cars is their vulnerability to a hacker attack. It's not hard to imagine car shutting off in the middle of intersection, or worse steering toward opposite traffic, or applying brakes at wrong time. If all is now controlled by a computer and more and more new cars have wireless connections, this is next threat that will become more pronounced in next few years.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    edited May 2014

    @bwia said:
    I believe this is a short version of Phil Lebeau CNBC story.

    Thanks for posting a link. I will not watch NBC if I can avoid it despite being a part owner.

    I watched the video impartially, of course. The drama queen quickly showed up in having the person pull hard to turn the key to ACC from the ON position. This is not a minor force shown in addition to the reportedly "heavy" stuff already on the key ring. Physically there is not a lot of torque due to the weight of what was on the key ring. Although I assume it has been found possible, I do not in any way believe the stuff on the ring they show would cause movement to the ACC position even in a switch with a weak detent, which they were. I also have the advantage of a real Cobalt with a switch to test the feel on how much gravitational pull would have to be present to move the switch. Only a small fraction of the down force would be applying a forward pull on the key. Notice the drama queen pulls toward on the key toward the front to assist in the rotation of the key.

    Then the drama queen showed he couldn't do the slalom. But I can't recall doing a slalom when I've been driving. If he had tried to show that he couldn't turn the wheel enough to change lanes onto an exit ramp vector, then it might have credibility.

    Alleging that the brakes may not be there is exaggeration also. The brake booster retains power for several applications with assist of the brake pedal.

    I was almost done when they talked about this being a demo by the "highly regarded" CR. They have been biased since the Corvair and Ralph Nader on their staff. Note the drama queen also labeled CR "nonprofit." And that is important how? Having read their reports through the years (at the library) it's easy to see how they treat similar characteristics in cars differently depending on whether it's one of their favored cars or not.

    I kept expecting Al Sharpton to show up to give his opinion in the NBC report! :laughing with an open mind.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242

    @dino001 - that character skipping problem - is that only in this particular discussion? If so, abacomike's explanation is probably correct. I type rather quickly, usually 80-100 WPM, and I'm not able to replicate that problem using my PC.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited May 2014

    @Kirstie_H said:

    dino001 - that character skipping problem - is that only in this particular discussion?

    I tried to type on this discussion only. But funny, it works fine for my workplace desktop. The one difference I can think of is my home PC uses wireless keyboard. The computer itself is a little slower, but it's not slow at all (an older i7 processor). And again, the typing works fine on other applications, so it's definitely not the hardware, the problems were just inside of this window (and they were, indeed unbearable). It works fine on my iPad, it's fine on my workplace PC. A bit dumbfounding. BTW, the draft autosave is incessant - perhaps related, but maybe not. I may give a few different tries when I get a next chance, from different boards, to a different web browser. I have an old wired keyboard, I may try that, too.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388

    @bwia said:
    I believe this is a short version of Phil Lebeau CNBC story. After watching this, I believe the best solution would be a keyless Push-Start system. Might be expensive yes, but it would be a permanent solution.

    I have the keyless start button in my car - but - I can disable that function by pulling on the "start button" and removing the button completely from the cylinder. I can then use my key (which is all plastic) by inserting it into the cylinder and turning the key to either ACC or ON or START. So it can function with a key or without a key if the Start Button is pushed into the cylinder.

    That's a nice feature. When I pull into valet parking, I usually pull the start button out of the cylinder which then enables the car to be started and shut off using the key only. The car came with two "start buttons" so if one gets damaged, I can use the other one.

    It seems there is a transmitter in the key and the button is a "receiver" and by pushing the button (so long as the key is in the car with you in your pocket) the car can be started.

    They should make this feature standard in all cars - the ability to either have push button start or insert your key to turn on the ignition and start the car.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388

    @imidazol97 said:
    Thanks for posting a link. I will not watch NBC if I can avoid it despite being a part owner.

    I feel the same way about NBC, CNBC and MSNBC. I just don't like the skew of their reporting. I have similar feelings about CNN and CBS, but they are not as far to the left. ABC is a fairly good news operation. For "real" news, not opinions, I watch ABC or Fox News Channel. For Fox, I mainly watch Shepherd Smith at 3:00 PM. because he is not biased and does not present the news from a left or right perspective.

    ABC nightly news is also better than most. But I find the rest of them especially the NBC stations to be very biased, especially MSNBC - the very worst of all.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805

    We're getting political again....

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,588

    @imidazol97 said: I watched the video impartially, of course. The drama queen quickly showed up in having the person pull hard to turn the key to ACC from the ON position.

    There is an oxymoron in that statement....I'll watch the video impartially....drama queen!

    Some people are reporting a problem when just one key is involved. Whether you believe the program or not, even if you think it is a conspiracy against GM, certain facts can't be disputed.

    The company says at least 13 people have died in crashes linked to the problem, but trial lawyers suing the company say the death toll is at least 53. Ignition switches on Chevrolet Cobalts and Saturn Ions can slip out of the "run" position and shut off the engine. That cuts off the power steering and brakes, potentially causing drivers to lose control. It also disables the car's air bags.

    "Literally silence can kill,", "GM did not act and did not alert us in a timely manner. What GM did was break the law."

    General Motors knew about the faulty parts from their supplier and General Motors never shared with the Safety Agency,"

    Automakers are required to report safety defects within five days of discovering them.

    Whether NBC is left wing, is corporate America, is prejudice against GM, or sensationalizes it's news doesn't matter....facts are facts. There is no defence for the company to try to avoid a recall.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    edited May 2014
    @driver100 said:

    "There is an oxymoron in that statement....I'll watch the video impartially....drama queen!"

    Driver - you also have to realize he never saw the whole program - just the part the link provided - 2 or 3 minutes. What he needs to do is watch the full hour program - but he won't watch it because it's NBC.

    So, if he won't watch the entire program, the best thing to do is ignore his comments - why aggravate yourself?

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386

    I'd feel better if this was the first year that GM recalled more vehicles than they produced but it's not. I'll grant you that inn the late 70s when it happened it was a completely different company. How this shakes out will make or break GM.

    They actually do produce some cars that I could consider. My killer is the mid sized sedan. I don't like the front of the current Malibu much at all but the tail looks great. The Fusion is exactly the opposite. Great front, Meh rear. Don't thing taking half of each would work...

    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278

    @driver100 said:
    There is no defence for the company to try to avoid a recall.

    I didn't know they were looking for one.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278
    edited May 2014

    @abacomike said:
    As for corrective action, dealerships claimed that they are not getting the needed parts to correct the problem, thus they are "slowly" correcting the problem as parts become available. Many owners of cars that were included in the recalls did not even know about the recall (25%) since they had not received a letter from GM, at least that's what was claimed.

    Neither is newsworthy. There are millions of units required from what I understand, so those need to be manufactured. They are not just sitting on a shelf somewhere. I read something recently that said October is the likely date for completion or near-completion. As for some of the owners not knowing, again, no surprise. These vehicles date back to 2004 so many of those cars have been sold multiple times, assuming they are even still on the road. It will take a while for the mail trail to catch up.

    One part that was interesting was the fact that Delphi or something like that (the company producing the defective or incorrect part) informed GM that the part did not meet GM's specifications and needed to be changed. The response from GM was - the part is satisfactory - we will continue to use them. Eventually, the part was changed, but no one knew outside the company (except for Delphi or something like that name - the company producing the ignition part(s)) that it had been changed and no new part number was issued.

    Yes, this was reported some time ago. I guess perhaps I am a bit better informed than some people on this matter since I read Automotive News daily and they have done a fine job of reporting on the progress in this case. They ran a story to that effect a few weeks ago.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,588
    @driver100 said
         There is no defence for the company to try to avoid a recall.
    

    @ab348 said:I didn't know they were looking for one.

    One poster doesn't seem to think GM has done anything wrong....says all car companies would have done the same.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,588

    @abacomike said:


    So, if he won't watch the entire program, the best thing to do is ignore his comments - why aggravate yourself?

    True. Imid says "Although I assume it has been found possible, I do not in any way believe the stuff on the ring they show would cause movement to the ACC position even in a switch with a weak detent, which they were."

    Thing is, in 2006 they changed the spring so would be harder to rotate the key into the ACC position. What year is his Cobalt?

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,194

    @mako1a said:
    This is the second time in as many days I've see this about unsold cars sitting in large holding areas waiting to go to buyers only there are few buyers so they continue to sit.

    That may be a bit of hysterical pot stirring. 83 days supply for bread and butter vehicles is not that unusual. IIRC a really hot car might only have 30 days supply while a dog could build up 120 day inventory.

    In my research mania when buying my Eclipse I discovered that they had 7000 unsold units sitting in a lot outside there Normal IL. plant. I figured they be desperate to sell me one. Not so.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,278

    @mako1a said:
    This is the second time in as many days I've see this about unsold cars sitting in large holding areas waiting to go to buyers only there are few buyers so they continue to sit.
    vincelewis.net/unsoldcars.html

    I saw this yesterday and it really comes across as uninformed, if not downright hysterical. The photos seem to be in many cases taken at shipping locations where there are usually thousands of vehicles awaiting transport. Some of the others are apparently inventory that was made in preparation for a plant changeover or other reasons. It is a bit reminiscent of Chrysler's infamous "sales bank" in the '60s and '70s, but that does not happen like that these days nearly as much as production planning is much better and there is less incentive to keep the plants running due to inflexible UAW labor agreements.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @driver100 said:

    "True. Imid says "Although I assume it has been found possible, I do not in any way believe the stuff on the ring they show would cause movement to the ACC position even in a switch with a weak detent, which they were."

    If you missed last night's two airings of this show on CNBC, it is being shown again on CNBC at 10:00 PM EDT tonight. Definitely with a look for those who are unfamiliar with the report, "FAILURE TO RECALL: GM"

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674

    @abacomike said:
    I feel the same way about NBC, CNBC and MSNBC. I just don't like the skew...

    Exactly the way I see it. We agree.

    I missed your post the first time through. I found it because I was looking back
    to see who didn't believe there was any problem with the ignition switches as
    another poster had claimed. I couldn't find anyone who said that, but I did
    find your post.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

This discussion has been closed.