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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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You "tip" the receptionist when she/he phones and gives messages promptly. You " tip" the lot boy when he promptly delivers your vehicle clean and on time. That is part of their job for which they get paid. Providing superior service to you, at the expense of the other workers, and accepting your "bribe" is not what they signed up for.
If getting and protecting revenue is acceptable as long as no laws are broken, then you may want to rethink your position on your moms Cadillac. Seems to me the dealership
is following your rules on how to get ahead. It's all good, as long as no laws are broken, the sale is made and the revenue is abundant.
Interesting that the two guys here that have been "very successful" in sales see no ethical problems in this situation. I think it's pretty sad.
This week in Memphis we have a court case going that is similar in some ways to this discussion. A "Business Consultant" who is a "part-time" state Senator is on trial for accepting money to help a company (FBI Sting) get legislation passed to ensure this company gets state business. That is his claim, FBI claims he sold his political power for $55,000. Hours of tapes with him discussing the details and accepting the cash, even stating that he would shoot an informant... Here are the details:
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_5472373,00.html
So is this that much different from the discussion and who is correct?
stories like that though make me question what democracy has turned into...however, i do not want to open yet another can of worms, so i'll leave it at that!
-thene :sick:
Also who would take a payoff for $55k? Jeez, if I'm going to take a payoff it better be well over $3M cash
-mike
I dunno, I don't live or work in a vacum it seems like we are saying each salesman should have exactly the same set of rules, same "level playing field" as everyone else. While a lofty goal I don't think that it's realistic, at least not in the real world. Now if there are contracts that the salesmen or receptionist signed (such as an employee handbook, etc) then we are in a different realm, but I doubt most sales guys sign much of a contract like that.
-mike
I believe there is a class that use to be taught in our college and universities.... called "Business Ethics". Any of you guys ever take such a class? I recall the first chapter discussing the differences between a "bribe" and a "tip". :P
-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host
I taught one a few years ago. I agree with GG with this one. If someone gives me a referral that leads to significant business, I will reward the person from the gain from the transaction.
Now, "some" people in the business world may call it being resourceful... and label this practice as "tipping". But, I see it as a smokescreen. People who justify the way they do business with such actions are posturing, and using this "intellectualising" as a means of quieting their conscience.
I think you look at this situation and think the "tipping" salesmen is being resourceful and is being a hard worker to put "food on the table". But, I see it as he is taking food off the table of his co-workers families.
I can see why you no longer teach that class.
What kind of world do we live in that uprighteousness and honesty is "unrealistic?" :sick:
But that logic could work for just about any kind of job other than one that pays a fixed salary with no incentives to move higher other than time in your job. Any job where you are working on an incentive basis, against your co-workers, or one that pays a bonus, or one where your advancement is measured against your co-workers. As I said before, if the sales guys were salaried, then yeah everything should be on a flat surface, however they aren't and must use resources to their advantage.
I'm not saying that one should go nutz and do physical harm or what not against their co-workers, however, as I said above anytime you work in a competative environment, you need to take advantage of any situation that you can to get ahead that doesn't physically harm someone or is illegal.
-mike
What if a second salesperson offers a higher amount than the first? Would it be unethical for him to offer, and would it also be unethical for her to accept?
Would these payments be a tip, bribe, or maybe just part of her income?
Maybe she could hold an auction every Monday to secure her services for the week? :shades:
What kind of world do we live in that uprighteousness and honesty is "unrealistic?"
I didn't say anything about honesty, nothing dishonest going on here as there is no hard-and-fast rule of who gets the calls. Or did I miss something where this company's rules set a black and white rule of who gets which customers?
-mike
Hee Hee :shades:
She could e-bay them! haaaaaa :P
-mike
you *think* you may be doing the receptionist (in the example) a favor or a niceity by offering monetary compensation, but what you're really doing is encouraging and rewarding behaviors which not only undermine the working relationship of this individual and others at the dealership (insert working environment of your choice).
these people work for the owner of the establishment. if it were my store, you'd be tossed without hesitation, no matter how many sales you were making.
who knows what other unethical behaviors you might be encouraging or imposing in your relationships with the other staff and customers.
you're a loner.
"In addition to bribery charges in Memphis, Ford faces six corruption counts in federal court in Nashville for allegedly taking $800,000 in kickbacks from state contractors. "
Back on the discussion, IMHO if there is ever any understanding that the distribution of cold calls is somewhat even, then to allow that to be weighted by 'tips' would not be ethical. Would you want to work at a place that told you one thing (implied contract perhaps?) and really did something else?
In actuality such a guy would probably not last very long cause he would run out of $20 bills before he made a sale!
Everything in moderation, including what we are talking about here.
-mike
Why pound the lot taking ups, sending out letters/emails to potential customers and making hundreds of phone calls? That's hard work and takes to much time. Just slip the receptionist a Benjamin every week, sit back... and let the good times roll.
How many sales inquires does a receptionist usually take in a given day? Sounds like she could make a killing by auctioning out her services... playing the field...being a double agent. i.e "No, I'm only providing you with leads isell, that moo guy isn't paying me off".
As for the phone calls, letters and pounding the parking lot pavement, all those methods will not be effected by this at all as those folks will come seeking you out directly!
I just get pictures of the movie Glengary Glenross whenever I'm reading this topic.
-mike
No but I would do what some other hosts do when being a poster and not a host: preface your post with the phrase "Not The Host".
I think most people here would not agree that the money the receptionist is getting is a tip. And while it might not be illegal, it's def. unethical.
Wanna be my new best friend?
I just lost one .... he was getting to be a little too expensive and I figure a new best friend wouldn't cost me so much.
You can never have too many friends.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I don't know about that. When I'm out to buy a car, it doesn't make a bit of difference if the salesman is good or bad in whether I buy.
Your comment on phone calls and letters doesn't make any sense.
But, thanks for keeping the conversation lively.
So then you are saying that car sales is a non-skilled labor job and as such, should not work on commission, just an hourly salary should do. Right?
Your comment on phone calls and letters doesn't make any sense.
The point of mailing out letters and making phone calls is so the customer comes in to buy a car from you specifically, no?
But, thanks for keeping the conversation lively.
Anything for the cause! I love a good debate and never take it in any malice if someone doesn't agree with me. I routinely debate some of my best friends! :shades:
-mike
Nice try. No... I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying I am not influenced to buy based on a sales pitch.
Being a good salesman certainly takes talent, good people and communication skills... but if I'm not ready to buy, then I'm not buying...even if the worlds greatest car salesmen (ala madmanmoo) is making the presentation.
The point of mailing out letters and making phone calls...
True. But, I also included pounding the lot in search of ups...where the customer would not know you. The point was that all the traditional ways of making a sales contact are hard work, as opposed to paying off someone to funnel all the work to you.
Promptness just doesn't have the credit rating to be insurable these days.
common, yes. annoying, yes
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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But, if I'm in sales at a dealership, and the receptionist, service person, lot boy, etc is throwing leads my way, you can bet I want them to keep doing it. I WILL reward them to do so....whether it's cash, perfume, bottle of booze....
The more sales I get as a result of their lead, the more they get.
I can tell you point blank, even in my business, which has nothing to do with cars, we reward people all the time for throwing business our way. The first thing I tell my sales guys when they make a sale..."ask the customer if they were happy with our products, our installation, our support". If they are, ask for a recommendation from them regarding someone else who could use what we offer. I also ask them how we can improve (which usually leads to follow-on sales as it gives us a chance to tell them how their suggestions make us better).
Our technology usually runs into 100s of thousands, even millions upon completion. After everything is done, I ask the sales person to invite the customer to a luncheon or dinner. Usually, after spending so much time with the customer, we find out a lot about them...about their personal life. If they like a Callaway Driver, for example, I present them with that as a "gift" for their business during the luncheon/dinner. If they recommend another company that my people close, I send them dinner for two at the nicest restaurant in their area.
If one of my support people turn up a lead that a sales guy closes, I personally send them out to dinner at their favorite restaurant. I present the "free dinner" in front of everyone at company meetings. It keeps eveyone on the lookout for more business by doing that.
A quick story...during my brief sales career, I closed the biggest sale in the company's history (at that time). I actually bought my first house with that commission....in cash. I wasn't able to close the deal without tech support, marketing, even the tech writers' help (and I include the receptionist...she kept me abreast of many things before, during and after the sale). I took everyone in the entire company out for dinner (over 40 people back then).....on my dime, as a result. Guess who got called when another business opportunity was uncovered by someone outside of sales?
Good sales people don't wait for business to come to them. They actually go out and find ways to get it.
Amen, Brother!! That's a fact that I could never express enough to my real estate broker ex-girlfriend! She still doesn't get motivated to pound the pavement. The listings that she gets, I'd almost call them dumb luck.
My problem is with how these leads are obtained. A lot boy throws you a customer... sure buy him a bottle of Maddog 20/20. A friend sends you 20 referrals, sure buy him a steak dinner. But, make an arrangement for the receptionist to send most of the cold sales calls your way, in exchange for cash, then it goes from rewarding them to "paying them off".. or a bribe.
Now, you train the receptionist(like Pavlovs dog) by rewarding her with cash every time she sends a call your way... well, then you may have found a loophole. Most of it is on her. But, that's a lot different than how this case was originally presented.
Bribes, to me, imply that money (or goods, or services) changes hands before something is done.
"I'll give you X if you do this for me"
Tips, generally, are given after the service is rendered.
"Thanks for that lead; it lead to a sale. Here's x as a token of appreciation"
So, are 'bird dog' fees the same thing as a bribe?
"I'll pay you $50 for every referral that leads to a sale"
just my .02
Bribes, to me, imply that money (or goods, or services) changes hands before something is done.
Tips, generally, are given after the service is rendered.
Actually, I'd say that money/goods exchanging hand after the fact can also be a kickback, rather than just a tip. And in most cases kickbacks are illegal/unethical.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
NEW BEST FRIEND FEE SCHEDULE:
Hanging out with you--$10
Hanging out with you when the beer runs out--$20
Lying to your wife about where you've been--$50
Lying to your wife if she is bigger than me--$100
The above fees can be considered tips not bribes.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
But only if you get the money after the fact ;-)
your company probably doesn't do business overseas or for the government. if it did, you'd be gone (long gone) by now.
even a hint of unethical behavior... sales particularly.
I did work with state auditors, auditing the company 'books'. One nice lady was in the company for months and months, almost every day. (Nothing actually wrong, it just takes a long time to look at the amount of transactions, across multiple years, she was auditing.) She did not even drink a free cup of coffee from the 'community' coffee pot. She paid for each cup.
Now, about the receptionist and these 'tips'. Are these going to be included on her federal and state income tax returns? See how quick this business of 'tips' leads to other questionable actions.
Rewarding that person after the fact for doing what they normally would do is different that a promise in advance to pay to do something they should not be doing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
NEW BEST FRIEND FEE SCHEDULE:
Yikes .... and I thought I couldn't afford the other guy. Never mind.
Lying to your wife if she is bigger than me--$100
She was 2nd team linebacker in high school so, you're probably no match here (to be honest, neither am I). Remember, it's not the size of the dog in the fight ... it's the size of the fight in the dog.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yes, in car sales we go have birddogs that we pay to anyone who refers us clients that buy.
We could go out and distribute flyers in the neighbourhood to get more leads and business.
We could do our own advertising to get extra leads and exposure.
However when a dealership hires a receptionist, to answer and evenly distribute calls to the salestaff, then that's the job she has to do.
Once the customer walks through the door, or connects with our dealership on the phone, it's all fair game. Everyone is supposed to get equal opportunity, because the dealership invested money in advertising so that all of us can get leads.
Not so that Joe Payoff gets the leads, and not so that Johnny Briber can get them, but for all of us to get them.
Each dealerhsip is a team, and we can't be paying off and backstabbing each other to try and end up on top. Other wise it makes for an unpleasant working environment in which the staff suffer, and eventually business drops.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
But thats the way to bet.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Perhaps giving the secretary flowers, tickets to a show, a dinner out for her and a date would be a better show of appreciation. Handing someone a $50 bill seems like you're paying them or doing a kickback. Giving a moderate, non-cash gift just doesn't leave the same taste in my mouth for some reason.
In this case what would I be thinking if I am one of the other salesmen and found out about this?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I like to go with a proven track record. Especially when I have first hand knowledge. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl