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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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Little "thank you for coming, but I don't think I could sell you this car at this price" should be a bare minimum of service regardless of whether the sale is made or not.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I went in there with a buddy of mine because he wanted to buy a projector these guys happen to sell, and I knew we could get a MUCH better deal from them than the big box stores.
However, once we got inside it was clear my friend did not have the stomach for it. Once the high pressure started, he buckled and wanted to leave. I took control of the situation and offered a OTD price, which the salesman had to go to "the tower" for. My friend at that point lost his mind, and I dropped a few things for him to think about.
The fact of the matter is that if you see something with a price tag on it, it's not a "good deal" for anyone but the owner of the store. It doesn't matter if it's "on sale". If you pay the price the store sets, you left money on the table.
"But", my friend said, "I feel abused by this place. They are like sharks that smell blood, and they think I'm an idiot."
My response is that the people who persevere in high pressure sales situations learn several valuable life lessons in the process. The skill of negotiating is a good one to have. Not only that, but you come out of the store knowing that you paid FAR less than the thousands of people who buy electronics at the "big box" places (for the record my friend saved $300 even over the Internet vendors), all because they didn't have the skill or stomach for negotiation.
The price for saving this money is the time spent negotiating, and subjecting yourself to questionable sales tactics. Some people say that playing with the snakes makes you slimey; in my opinion, if you can game the snakes, you beat the devil.
The point I'm making is that maybe the best deals can be had at the slimiest of car dealerships, because those salespeople have the least pride. You can look at it as giving money to the "bad guys", or you can look at it as saving the "good guys" a minimum commission.
Am I off the wall? I feel much better slamming a slimeball liar of a salesperson for every last penny, rather than a salesperson who is kind and patient. I know if I was dealing with isell or any of the folks on here, I'd probably end up paying sticker. :P
One topic that I don't think has ever been brought up in the 5 years I've been reading the "Inconsiderate Buyers" [non-permissible content removed] "Stories from the Sales Frontlines" is how salespeople are able to detect someone's 'slime-o-meter'. In other words, how do they know how much pressure to apply before someone snaps and bolts due to discomfort with the process?
These salespeople usually don't change their approach from customer to customer anymore than a right handed batter would swing left handed.
There are precious few switch hitters in the sales game.
Stores tend to hire the kind of salesperson they want based on the stores sales philosophy.
So, in a high pressure store,the salespeople will put buying pressure on everyone,figuring that the odds will be in their favor. Yes,they will blow some people out the door,but they will make up for it by slamming other people in cars that they may not have gotten by being kind.
It is more a myth than anything else that this kind of dealer will give you a better deal than a nicer retailer.
I am glad that your friend saved $300,but electronics are different than cars.
Obviously most of them don't - your friend would have been out of there long time ago, if not for you. The most successful ones are those who can mix a charm, plain good manners, enough product knowledge and ability to apply just right amount of push at right pressure point to get a deal. They also know when to accept a mini deal, when to try for more and when not to even bother try closing. The can smell low CSI mile away and cut it. They can also smell an informed focused but reasonable buyer and move quickly enough to close him/her and move to the next one.
It's the rest of them, most I would say - they are "either/or" people, it's a jackpot or nothing for them. They end up mistreating their customers or get unfocused that let a real buyer pass by cause don't want to appear too pushy. Many chase a wild goose and end up getting fired or burn up after short awhile.
Their managers are not helpful in that, either - putting forward unrealistic expectations and idiotic advice.
Did I miss anything, guys?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
No problem. If a sales person refuses to present my written offer to the sales manager, we are perfectly capable of giving it to the sales manager ourselves.
If an offer is presented that's nowhere close to anything doable, then I will not present it to a manager, because I know it's way off, and I know the manager will say no, so what's the point.
At my previous store we were discounting new Civics about $300-$500. I had people that presented offers of $2000-$4000 off.
Why would I even bother taking them to my manager, if our counteroffer would have been $500 off and it still wouldn't work.
Whenever people presented crazy offers that are not doable at ANY Honda dealer like $4k off a Civic, I'd let them walk.
Usually afterwards when they ask what's my best price, I tell them it doesn't matter because it's not going to be $4k off.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
In my card analogy, in which madmanmoo was a couple cards short of a full deck, it is necessary to remember that you the consumer have the winning hand... at least 95% of the time (less products in unusually high demand). If you're not satisfied with the pace of negotiations... walk. The dealership will call this "bluff" the vast majority of times. After the dealership has blinked first, just slowly reel him in and tighten that noose. Right moo?
When I work the desk (about 20% of the time I am on the desk) and a sales person brings me a stupid offer I tell him his first mistake was getting up and even giving the customer the slightest idea we would entertain anything close to it.
The top 10 dumbest reasons given as a basis for a stupid offer are:
10: My friend told me he bought for this price a couple of years ago.
9: The other dealer said they could do this deal.
8: Because another brand is giving this much off their model.
7: Somebody on the internet somewhere said it can be done.
6: Because you have 30% markup in your prices.
5: Because I'm a real buyer and will buy within a month.
4: You can make up the loss in service
3: You can make up the loss on another customer
2: I'm poor and don't have much money.
Number one dumbest reason I ever ran across is:
1: I'm "good friends" with the owner of another dealer and he can sell it for this much but I'm still shopping him.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Yeah, what's the point?
That's kinda like when a dealer bumps up the price on a new car by $2500 by pasting an "Additional Dealer Profit" or "Market Adjustment" sticker next to the MSRP sticker. How about a charge of $2000 for trade-in assistance?
Just as bad are addendums for a $750 wax job and a $300 can of Scotchguard sprayed on the seats and a vinyl pinstipe for $349 and door edge guards for $198 and window tint for $399 and $300 window etching and a $700 alarm and and and...
A shopper seeing that may think its a ripoff joint so why even talk to a salesman? Why deal with a place like that?
He just drives away to another dealer who does not automatically add profit packs to every car.
Damn! There goes my entire buying plan...
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
He just drives away to another dealer who does not automatically add profit packs to every car.
That's exactly how I feel everytime I enter a lot with those "profit packs" installed. I know there won't be a deal (or it is not likely to be precise). If I'm in perversly good mood, I fantasize about actually starting enjoying myself into getting a test drives, acting all interested with no intention of following through, just to take some of their precious time (provided I had plenty at the moment and they have something I may enjoy driving).
If people treat me like I'm that stupid, watch me returning the favor. :P
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I wouldn't know we don't do that, with the exception of when we put in a bed liner/running boards/ factory option. That and on the Ford GT's. We put a $10K addendum on those.
But don't forget
11. I know my trade is worth $10K because thats what I owe on it.
12. The other dealer will do it, the only thing different between yours and theres is yours has a Moon Roof, Leather, and a Nav System.
13. Well I don't really want a Moon Roof or 20" wheels so I don't think I should have to pay for them
14. Because my family has 10 Fords that we bought from the other guys.
And the best that I have ever personaly heard is
15. God told me this is the most I should have to pay. I asked where god got his figures from because they are a little off, and I swear she replied, "Only God knows".
When a customer gets a dealer who doesn't want to negotiate and even adds silly extras to the price tag, that means the customer should ask the dealer to define what they base their pricing on?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thats easy..... Cost
Side note:
I made my decsion on what we were talking about the other day Cliff.
We car buyers are not as knowledgable as the professionals who sell cars and we do not know what price will be accepted. We are definitely ignorant but we are not stupid.
In our attempt to buy a car for a low price, we sometimes make offers that are much lower than a dealer will accept. In that case, just tell us that our offer has been refused and we will be on our way.
When we bought our last car, we made an offer that I thought was much too low. Someone on the Prices Paid forum claimed they had gotten that price, so we figured we would try it ourselves. I was amazed when the offer was accepted.
In fact, much of the hubub about pricing, addons, fluff and puff, etc., are intended to confuse the issue about equitable pricing on the part of the customer. I don't think the customer is at fault for an offer the dealer wants to ridicule.
It's like comparing pricing on a computer for most people; the more variations that can be added, the more uncertain a customer is about the real value in the computer box.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Paint sealant: cost $10.99+1 hr undocumented labor, price $199
Fabric protection: cost $15.99+0.5 hr undocumented labor, price $299
19" wheels, cost $500, price $2359
extended warranty: cost $600, price $1199
wheel locks: cost $25, price $199
You're killing me, Joel
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Really!!!
Now how much does a can of Scotchguard costs..
And do you really believe your dealership can offer a product that protects the exterior paint better than the factory's paint job.
Now, now... I am looking at an invoice for 19 inch wheels and tires right now. My cost from the parts department is 700 dollars a wheel not including labor and tire pressure monitors that are required on all our cars now.
So figure 2,800 dollars total for all four wheels. The TPM sensors are around 40 bucks eash so another 160 dollars for those. Then labor to take off the old wheels and put the new ones on of an hour or so at 100 dollars an hour.
A little over 3,000 dollars plus tax.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
its a business, and there are markups involved. you should post the costs and retail values of things like TV's, sofas, entertainment centers, etc and you'll see similar markups, if not more so. thats what a business is there to do - make money. if you don't want those items, don't buy them. but they have every right to try to sell these items as you have every right to not buy them.
i don't necessarily agree with some of the ways these things are sold (im not big into high pressure) but that doesn't mean i don't think they should not be sold at all.
there's always two sides to the story, but sometimes we forget to tell the other side
-thene
But isn't that because dealers look at parts, service and sales as different when they are really part of the same operation? I mean, the owner still makes the same profit if parts sells wheels to you for $1 and you then you charge the customer $700 as he would if parts charged you $700 and you gave them to the customer for "cost".
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
No, you missed my point completely. Joel was claiming the base of his pricing is cost. You, I and everybody else here know it's not true for those precious aftermarkets - base of their pricing is how much they think they can get, not how much they paid.
I have no problem of charging anything you can think of - if there is a buyer of a Focus for $100K, so be it - I don't care. If there is anyone willing to pay $199 or $2099 for wheel locks, fine with me too. I simply won't buy them for that much and if you try to bundle that price with another product that I actually want, I would not buy that product (enough people willing to sell it to me without that silly ad-on or with a price that is more reasonable to me). So it's your choice - either no sale, or sale at price point that reflects my liking. It's a business, so let it be your busisess decision.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That is exactly what I do. When I see the ADM sticker I get back in my car and drive off the lot. I had a salesman stop me once and ask why as he was saying they would knock the ADM off. I told him that ADM sticker tells me you are "old school" and I won't reward any "old school" dealers with my business at any price. This dealer also runs those screamer ads on the radio.
So if it is not true then your saying I am lying :confuse: I think not.
The poster said that the consumer should ask the dealer what they base there price off of. I said thats easy...Cost. Which is true. Every item has a cost, that cost dictates what we sell the car for. If there are after market items then they also have a cost.
To say they don't because we buy them from parts is crazy. Each operation stands on its own. I am sure that the parts MGR would have plenty to say if the owner told him to sell the sales department $1200 worth of wheels for a $1, thats $1199.00 of his bottom line he gets paid on each month.
I also liked whoever it was that said that they the customer have no idea what the cost on stuff is. People here cannot have it both ways. You can't say that you know everything about the pricing of cars and always get a great deal in one breath, but when it fits the conversation say the big bad dealer has all this info we don't have.
Parts charges us 10 or 15 percent over there cost.
What people have to remember is dealerships are a business. Service charges sales retail when they do the work on used and new cars. Service in itself is a business. Why shouldn't they charge sales retail if they are usin their mechanics to do the work. They could easily take another service customer and make the same money.
Parts is another side of the business were they do the same thing charge retail to the sales department.
Eevryone is quick to say the owner is already making a profit on the car. But... The owner isn't the only one who gets a patcheck evry week. If the sales dept. charges service only the cost of parts at whole sale to change a muffler then how do you pay the parts counter guy and then how do pay the mechanic for his time. On top of all that how do you afford to pay the rent,utilities, etc. etc..
I know I'm ranting and this started with all the add ons for that car sitting in the showroom with simmoniz, pinstripping, Autobahn, what ever might be added including ADM... But you shouldn't be afraid of oh thats old school.
People buy these products because they see some value to it. Every one is different. If people weren't buying it then dealerships wouldn't do it. And why shouldn't a dealership make profit? Thats why people get in business.
You don't have to buy that car and you don't have to run when you see those things. Everyone should be adult come in and get the information you are looking for on what ever vehicle that interests you. If the dealer presents a price and you think it's to high than you can negotiate. You are not required to buy anything. If you get treated with disrespect or you feel bullied than I would understand than why someone would run away. If you had a bad experience at the store why would you go back?
Also while I am ranting Every one seems to say the owner is making profit on parts, sefvice, and sales. Why should pay three? Well the owner ivested in all three why shouldn't he make money on all three and all three departments make money to pay employees so they support their families.
This rant is directed to oldfarmer I think I'm just a little burnt out... 47 ups... 18 deals... pretty good month but still burnt out, gotta go another customer
Same here. Hell our Used Car Department pay the same labor rates as joe consumer
That is a good ratio there. I can get up over 30 percent sometimes but I struggle to stay there for the long haul.
As I said before - you can do what you want. If there are enough suckers buying that junk, good for you. However, if you give ME no "opt-out" choice, there is no deal - as they represent no value to ME, or at least not at your pricing point.
So were you lying? Not exactly - you just chose to use "cost" in context of that bundled deal, where indeed one could still argue it's based on a "cost plus" pricing. However, on their own merit (w/o context of the vehicle) their pricing has no basis on cost. You are right - I don't know your exact costs of acquisition. But I do know a value to me. Assuming for a moment both of us are reasonable (which of course is a big assumption
No the side note, I probably should not have mentioned the wheels, as they may actually be sold on cost plus basis by retailers, indeed.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It's not about being afraid - it's about making a small contribution to shaping marketplace that discourages those practices. It's like with voting - one vote seems like too small contribution, but in numbers it does matter.
2018 430i Gran Coupe