"...a lifetime loyalty to Honda and Toyota and that's all there is to it..."
Isn't that the same problem those die-hard domestic fans had? They were so devoted to "their" brand that they bought junk long after the competitors were building superior cars.
I guess I was lucky, the one Toyota I owned was not very good so I never developed the fanatical devotion that some folks have for all things Japanese.
When I buy my next car it will not be limited to any particular brand. I currently own cars/truck from all three domestics but I am considering a Japanese brand for my next one.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Well let's face it. From what I read, it is pretty rare that people keep cars past 100,000 miles. It seems to be the minority, and not the majority that do this.
With that said, with today's engineering, isn't it safe to assume that most any new Honda / Toyota / Hyundai / GM / Ford / Chrysler / Mazda / Nissan / Mitsubishi is going to at least last you that long, and be relatively trouble free as long as you maintain it properly?
I guess I am in the minority that plans on keeping my current fleet for a while, so I do look at the long term reliability stats. Hoewever, if I was going to buy a car with the intentions of getting rid of it before 100,000 miles, I would probably buy based off of a) what gives me the most features for the money at the time of purchase, and b) potential resale values.
While its rare for people to keep a car for over 100K miles I do think more and more people are doing it. 20+ years ago it was rare to see someone with high mileage cars like that now it seems like there are far more.
I agree almost every car will go the distance if well maintained. I have seen GM's go 300K or more miles and I have seen Hondas falling apart after 50K miles.
As for reliability studies for cars with 100-150K miles on it I would think there are just to many variables to do that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In no way do I believe that this one report is going to be the demise of all Imports and make Ford the #1 auto maker in the world by next Tuesday. I am just ecstatic that we finally got some positive press. This, the Road Track comparison with the Fusion against its competitors, the continued leading in the truck segment, all the little things add up and before you know it you are bringing a good competitive product to the table across the board that sells its self.
I don't want the whole market segment, I just want my own unfair share of it
Well let's face it. From what I read, it is pretty rare that people keep cars past 100,000 miles. It seems to be the minority, and not the majority that do this.
Depends on who you hang with. Most of my family and friends keep their vehicles until 150k+ ***IF*** the car makes it that long. Why get rid of a car that is NOT causing you many problems? Thta is a complete waste since the dealers not going to give you much for your used car.
If you are looking for a TRACK toy why not a TRACK 350Z or at least a base/enthusiast with some mods??
Nice car, but only two seats. If I could get away with two seats I'd have an ///M Coupe or Elise. Or maybe even a Z06.
As an aside, one reason I tend to stay with Bimmers is the fact that my local dealer doesn't hassle me about track use. Several of the salespeople do BMW CCA HPDEs frequently. My service advisor runs an E36 M3, a Z4, and a Triumph Bonnie. And the owner of the indie shop that I also use is a CCA club racer. It's nice to deal with true enthusiasts.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I wasn't trying to knock Ford(I grew up in a "Ford family"). I think that they build some excellent products, and I've recommended the Fusion/Milan to friends who aren't car nuts. However, with the exception of the Ford GT, nothing from Dearborn makes me think "I gotta have it".
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think all the domestics have made progress in the last 10 years. Now if you can just convince the American public...
Now all the Big 2.5 has to do is start selling a product that I want to own...
Amen, and they are getting closer I miss the Contour. It had like 17X hp and a 5 speed stick, very supportive seats, fun suspension, was cheap to buy and maintain, as was a lot of fun on track days and HPDEs. I also think the E36 M3/4 was one of the peaks of automotive design. I can't think of anything that car didn't do well.
We have some 07 E 350 with P2 However, it is NOT leather .. it is called MB tex (read: VINYL) Looks like Leather and fools 98% of the people
I wanted real leather actually, but alas it is hard to find on a $50k MB. Only option is to order a 08 or take a vinyl one.
Anyways, since there was no reponse to my question, I take it that having an easy sale in the bag even though it may turn out to be mini is not that appealling. You guys would rather grind it down to a mini through the "normal" process?
For me, I'd take the easy mini in the bank and focus my energy on other opportunities. I guess I would not make a good salesperson
I'd take the easy mini in the bank and focus my energy on other opportunities
It depends on the vehicle and allocation. If it is a MSRP or close car with tight allocation, there is no way I am taking a mini now on an stock or ordered car until conditions change. If it is an abundant vehicle with plenty of allocation, I would negotiate (in a friendly, non confrontational manner) a mini. If you grind with attitude, you can buy elsewhere.
I would negotiate (in a friendly, non confrontational manner) a mini.
To be clear, I would never expect anything more than a very good market price. I was wondering more if a deal could be done by cutting to the chase in a polite and civil manner. I know I could email 10 dealers, waste their time and mine and play multiple offers. Or I could hire Car Bargains, the Checkbook service to get quotes. This may seem wierd to you guys, but I actually much prefer to buy from the guy that takes me for a test drive and spends the time. I don't want to call or step into another dealer.
But I guess it's too naive to think we could agree on a deal without the back and forth and perhaps walking out. Too bad.
I live by the fact that you have to leave the customer room to win.
Talk about cutting to the chase I also put a for sale sign on one of our vehicles in case anyone was interested. We had a couple of people ask a few questions, but nothing serious so I put it on Craigslist for a little over $9000 giving me some room to play. The first email I received was "Would you take $8500?" Not can I see it, or any other questions, LOL. I wrote back and said sure, we have a deal!
"Would you take $8500?", does not really have the same meaning as "If you'll take $8500 then I will buy your car." Do you see the difference? Tomorrow he may email you and ask if you'd take $7600. Let us know if he actually buys it for $8500. (or maybe he already did?)
"Would you take $8500?", does not really have the same meaning as "If you'll take $8500 then I will buy your car." Do you see the difference? Tomorrow he may email you and ask if you'd take $7600.
Oh I understand completely. My point was he hasn't even seen the car or asked any questions about it, just wanted to know if I'd come down in price...maybe closer to what he's looking to spend. It just seemed odd, maybe it's me, maybe I'm in dire need of a weekend :sick:
Not odd at all. People won't buy a $300 lounge chair with out sitting there butt in it first but want you to cut a $28K car before they ever see it. :confuse:
Today at the farmers' market: Two women looking at two IDENTICAL plants. One woman makes up her mind first, selects her plant, pays, and leaves. The next woman comes up to me and asks: "will you give me a 40% discount on this remaining plant because I liked the other one better?"
You car sales guys have it easy.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
When your plants are picked over, and only one of a specific type remains, you may need to reduce its price.
When a car lot is picked over, with only one of a specific car model remaining, the dealer may feel the need to sell it near MSRP. I also wouldn't be surprised if some sales manager feels the "need" to add some special rims and bling to it!
1) Most people don't keep cars anywhere near 100K miles (those who got the car new, that is -- lots of people buy used cars & drive them way past 100K).
2) Nearly all of today's cars will go beyond 100K miles without breaking a sweat. The bar has been raised. . .a lot.
I've driven (or presided over (wife's car)) four vehicles bought new that have gone over 100K miles. My favorite was my '73 240Z (223K), but the two minivans (143K & 129K) & my present Lincoln LS (111K) figure into the mix as well. I've endured what I consider a typical amount of grief from these cars, but none of them has been a horror show. I had a Chrysler LH car with 95K miles that had more problems than three of the others put together, as counterpoint.
The fact remains that reliability beyond 100K miles for a vehicle bought (none who lease go here) new addresses a very small cohort. You & me for starters, it sounds like.
I'm sure the manufacturers carefully monitor & analyze this data. The odds that we'll ever see it are somewhere between zero & none.
I also wouldn't be surprised if some sales manager feels the "need" to add some special rims and bling to it!
That reminds me. Last night while driving by the local Chevy dealer, they had two cars parked out in what I call the "feature car area" on the front lawn...with spotlights... one was a Cobalt LS coupe tarted up with special rims and a wing and racing stripe, and the other was a Cobalt sedan LS with similar 'bling'.
My point was he hasn't even seen the car or asked any questions about it, just wanted to know if I'd come down in price...
A few years ago we were getting rid of some living room furniture that was still in pretty good condition and I thought I could get $100 for the three pieces along with a couple tables and lamps. I didn’t think that was asking too much and it would save my back taking it to the curb. The first caller says, without asking a single question, "will you take $35 dollars for everything” :sick: I said NO and he said, “why not, it’s used isn’t it”? I politely thanked him for calling and hung up. You guessed it, he called right back and said, “ok, will you take $50”, again not asking a single question. :sick: :sick: I repeated the process and wouldn’t answer the phone for about an hour. Who knows how much he would have finally offered and worse yet, how many real buyers did I lose? In the end I called Goodwill. I should have done that first and saved myself the $15 I spent for an ad.
It just seemed odd, maybe it's me,
Nah that’s the way a lot of people buy used items. You guys in the biz don’t have a lock on this type of behavior, you just see it everyday.
...I'm in dire need of a weekend.
You’re starting to sound like the ‘bean’ now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well, he came and saw it tonight, didn't drive it, but walked around and around and asked questions, and opened doors, etc. He seemed interested, asked again if $8500 would be my bottom price, which I said yes. He said he'd talk to the boss his wife and call me about coming out tomorrow so they could both drive it. It's almost 10:30, no call, so we'll see...
I own a 2004 Volvo XC90 and was thinking about trading in for a Buick Enclave. I went to Hub Buick in Houston to look at the car. I liked what I saw and asked for a test drive. They refused saying they only had one car. I asked if they expected someone to but a $40000 car without test drivng one. They told me I can buy it, drive it with a salesman, and then if I didn't like the way it drove I could return it. BTW it was the dealership owner who told me this.
I thought it was the craziest thing I have ever heard. I personally think they didn't think I was serious and didn't want to be bothered with me. What do you think.
We sold an Edge last weekend because the Honda Dealer in town would not let the folks drive what ever the SUV thing they have is. They told them they only had two and could not let them off the lot because of all the people wanting to look at it. The customer said he looked around and he could have fired a shot gun in any direction with out hitting another customer.
He told the sales guy that his intentions for the day were to drive the Honda and the Ford in the morning and to be back home drinking a beer by 3:00 PM looking at his new car.
The Honda guy told him "Ford don't scare me". So when the guy got here I happened to be walking the floor to see if everyone was working, the guy asked if he could drive an Edge. I told him that we have around 20 in stock and he can could drive them all twice if we would like. He then said to bring a Tungsten color around and he would take it for a drive and probably take it home.
If I knew the Honda guy name I would mail him a Thank You letter
I know we try to keep at least one of everything for people to drive. Honda Fits are almost always presold before they arrive so we don't keep a Fit demo.
We do tell people that they can put a deposit on one and when it arrives, they can certainly drive it before signing anything. If they don't like it, we will be happy to return their deposit. So far, this hasn't happened.
If this Enclave is something rare or special, it may attract joyriders who have no intension of buying it. Cars like this will rack up miles from non serious buyers so a dealer may be reluctant to allow test drives.
Since I haven't the foggiest idea what an Enclave is, I don't know.
I will admit that we do not allow people to test drive our specialty cars, i.e SVT Mustangs, Lightning Trucks, Shelbys, etc until we have agreed that the price is on the window and that the customer has the ability to buy the vehicle. Serious buyers on those cars understand and appreciate it.
Exactly I couldnt agree more, I'd drive it up to the dealership and show him what you just purchased and tell him it was his missed opportunity to make a sale.
From a car guys stand point you have to be careful with stuff like that because we all have been on both ends of the stick at one point or another in our careers.
I will let anyone drive any of our cars as long as they are serious, over 18 and the car is not sold.
Craig the Enclave is a badge engineered GM product that shares its platform with the GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook and a future Chevy product called the Traverse.
Maybe badge engineering is too harsh as they are supposed to be fairly good products but I have no personal experience with them.
From a car guys stand point you have to be careful...
I'm sure you have but aren't you the one that would have sent a card if you had the guys name?
The buyer would have saved you that expense (postage alone ain't free these days) and he would have looked like the bad guy. He would have done your dirty work and you would have been out of it completely.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
If we have only one Supercharged car on the lot, and the customer is not a previous customer, we are selective on test drives - do not want to mile up a specialty car. Anything else can be test driven all day.
I saw a Land Rover commercial today with the car driving over lava or some such nonsense. What caught my eye was the color of the car--bright orange. Does Land Rover sell many in that color?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That is the nice thing about Volvo. They always provide us with at least 1 dedicated demo of their new product. We had an XC90 demo for 3 months before we had cars to sell. We had a C70 demo for 6 months.
I understand not wanting to waste time w/ joyriders on a hot,rare car. But, I wasn't under the impression that the Enclave qualified.
Comments
Good Lord.
-Mathias
Actually, I've had the Three since new(11/95) and I've had the Wrangler since 5/02. The X3 is a newbie-11/04, as is the T3-9/05.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
However, it is NOT leather .. it is called MB tex
(read: VINYL)
Looks like Leather and fools 98% of the people
REAL leather is an OPTION but it is STANDARD on the E500
Sport is a NO cost option (included in $$ of car or with P1 and above package) - has dual exhaust and 18" tires
If you are in/around the West Cost .. we got 'em
Great power, not too fat, decent chasis .. and Japanese reliability (yeah, yeah I know NISSAN & reliability; they are the lowest of the Japanese 3)
Isn't that the same problem those die-hard domestic fans had? They were so devoted to "their" brand that they bought junk long after the competitors were building superior cars.
I guess I was lucky, the one Toyota I owned was not very good so I never developed the fanatical devotion that some folks have for all things Japanese.
When I buy my next car it will not be limited to any particular brand. I currently own cars/truck from all three domestics but I am considering a Japanese brand for my next one.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
With that said, with today's engineering, isn't it safe to assume that most any new Honda / Toyota / Hyundai / GM / Ford / Chrysler / Mazda / Nissan / Mitsubishi is going to at least last you that long, and be relatively trouble free as long as you maintain it properly?
I guess I am in the minority that plans on keeping my current fleet for a while, so I do look at the long term reliability stats. Hoewever, if I was going to buy a car with the intentions of getting rid of it before 100,000 miles, I would probably buy based off of a) what gives me the most features for the money at the time of purchase, and b) potential resale values.
I agree almost every car will go the distance if well maintained. I have seen GM's go 300K or more miles and I have seen Hondas falling apart after 50K miles.
As for reliability studies for cars with 100-150K miles on it I would think there are just to many variables to do that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
BR, you owe a couple that you keep dangling in front of us!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't want the whole market segment, I just want my own unfair share of it
Depends on who you hang with. Most of my family and friends keep their vehicles until 150k+ ***IF*** the car makes it that long. Why get rid of a car that is NOT causing you many problems? Thta is a complete waste since the dealers not going to give you much for your used car.
Nice car, but only two seats. If I could get away with two seats I'd have an ///M Coupe or Elise. Or maybe even a Z06.
As an aside, one reason I tend to stay with Bimmers is the fact that my local dealer doesn't hassle me about track use. Several of the salespeople do BMW CCA HPDEs frequently. My service advisor runs an E36 M3, a Z4, and a Triumph Bonnie. And the owner of the indie shop that I also use is a CCA club racer. It's nice to deal with true enthusiasts.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Now all the Big 2.5 has to do is start selling a product that I want to own...
Amen, and they are getting closer
I also think the E36 M3/4 was one of the peaks of automotive design. I can't think of anything that car didn't do well.
However, it is NOT leather .. it is called MB tex
(read: VINYL)
Looks like Leather and fools 98% of the people
I wanted real leather actually, but alas it is hard to find on a $50k MB. Only option is to order a 08 or take a vinyl one.
Anyways, since there was no reponse to my question, I take it that having an easy sale in the bag even though it may turn out to be mini is not that appealling. You guys would rather grind it down to a mini through the "normal" process?
For me, I'd take the easy mini in the bank and focus my energy on other opportunities. I guess I would not make a good salesperson
It depends on the vehicle and allocation. If it is a MSRP or close car with tight allocation, there is no way I am taking a mini now on an stock or ordered car until conditions change. If it is an abundant vehicle with plenty of allocation, I would negotiate (in a friendly, non confrontational manner) a mini. If you grind with attitude, you can buy elsewhere.
To be clear, I would never expect anything more than a very good market price. I was wondering more if a deal could be done by cutting to the chase in a polite and civil manner. I know I could email 10 dealers, waste their time and mine and play multiple offers. Or I could hire Car Bargains, the Checkbook service to get quotes. This may seem wierd to you guys, but I actually much prefer to buy from the guy that takes me for a test drive and spends the time. I don't want to call or step into another dealer.
But I guess it's too naive to think we could agree on a deal without the back and forth and perhaps walking out. Too bad.
Talk about cutting to the chase
Let us know if he actually buys it for $8500. (or maybe he already did?)
Oh I understand completely. My point was he hasn't even seen the car or asked any questions about it, just wanted to know if I'd come down in price...maybe closer to what he's looking to spend. It just seemed odd, maybe it's me, maybe I'm in dire need of a weekend :sick:
You car sales guys have it easy.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
When your plants are picked over, and only one of a specific type remains, you may need to reduce its price.
When a car lot is picked over, with only one of a specific car model remaining, the dealer may feel the need to sell it near MSRP. I also wouldn't be surprised if some sales manager feels the "need" to add some special rims and bling to it!
1) Most people don't keep cars anywhere near 100K miles (those who got the car new, that is -- lots of people buy used cars & drive them way past 100K).
2) Nearly all of today's cars will go beyond 100K miles without breaking a sweat. The bar has been raised. . .a lot.
I've driven (or presided over (wife's car)) four vehicles bought new that have gone over 100K miles. My favorite was my '73 240Z (223K), but the two minivans (143K & 129K) & my present Lincoln LS (111K) figure into the mix as well. I've endured what I consider a typical amount of grief from these cars, but none of them has been a horror show. I had a Chrysler LH car with 95K miles that had more problems than three of the others put together, as counterpoint.
The fact remains that reliability beyond 100K miles for a vehicle bought (none who lease go here) new addresses a very small cohort. You & me for starters, it sounds like.
I'm sure the manufacturers carefully monitor & analyze this data. The odds that we'll ever see it are somewhere between zero & none.
That reminds me. Last night while driving by the local Chevy dealer, they had two cars parked out in what I call the "feature car area" on the front lawn...with spotlights... one was a Cobalt LS coupe tarted up with special rims and a wing and racing stripe, and the other was a Cobalt sedan LS with similar 'bling'.
Old phrase, but apparently still valid.
A few years ago we were getting rid of some living room furniture that was still in pretty good condition and I thought I could get $100 for the three pieces along with a couple tables and lamps. I didn’t think that was asking too much and it would save my back taking it to the curb. The first caller says, without asking a single question, "will you take $35 dollars for everything” :sick: I said NO and he said, “why not, it’s used isn’t it”? I politely thanked him for calling and hung up. You guessed it, he called right back and said, “ok, will you take $50”, again not asking a single question. :sick: :sick: I repeated the process and wouldn’t answer the phone for about an hour. Who knows how much he would have finally offered and worse yet, how many real buyers did I lose? In the end I called Goodwill. I should have done that first and saved myself the $15 I spent for an ad.
It just seemed odd, maybe it's me,
Nah that’s the way a lot of people buy used items. You guys in the biz don’t have a lock on this type of behavior, you just see it everyday.
...I'm in dire need of a weekend.
You’re starting to sound like the ‘bean’ now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
the bosshis wife and call me about coming out tomorrow so they could both drive it. It's almost 10:30, no call, so we'll see...I thought it was the craziest thing I have ever heard. I personally think they didn't think I was serious and didn't want to be bothered with me. What do you think.
Go to another dealer.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
-Moo
He told the sales guy that his intentions for the day were to drive the Honda and the Ford in the morning and to be back home drinking a beer by 3:00 PM looking at his new car.
The Honda guy told him "Ford don't scare me". So when the guy got here I happened to be walking the floor to see if everyone was working, the guy asked if he could drive an Edge. I told him that we have around 20 in stock and he can could drive them all twice if we would like. He then said to bring a Tungsten color around and he would take it for a drive and probably take it home.
If I knew the Honda guy name I would mail him a Thank You letter
How do they come up with these stupid names?
I know we try to keep at least one of everything for people to drive. Honda Fits are almost always presold before they arrive so we don't keep a Fit demo.
We do tell people that they can put a deposit on one and when it arrives, they can certainly drive it before signing anything. If they don't like it, we will be happy to return their deposit. So far, this hasn't happened.
If this Enclave is something rare or special, it may attract joyriders who have no intension of buying it. Cars like this will rack up miles from non serious buyers so a dealer may be reluctant to allow test drives.
Since I haven't the foggiest idea what an Enclave is, I don't know.
Better yet, ask your customer to drive it over and show the guy his new wheels. Maybe he'll be more afraid of Fords after the visit.
I'm sure they're not beer drinking buddies so no friendship will be lost.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Craig the Enclave is a badge engineered GM product that shares its platform with the GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook and a future Chevy product called the Traverse.
Maybe badge engineering is too harsh as they are supposed to be fairly good products but I have no personal experience with them.
Outlook
Enclave
Acadia
I'm sure you have but aren't you the one that would have sent a card if you had the guys name?
The buyer would have saved you that expense (postage alone ain't free these days) and he would have looked like the bad guy. He would have done your dirty work and you would have been out of it completely.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
-Moo
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
They always provide us with at least 1 dedicated demo of their new product.
We had an XC90 demo for 3 months before we had cars to sell.
We had a C70 demo for 6 months.
I understand not wanting to waste time w/ joyriders on a hot,rare car. But, I wasn't under the impression that the Enclave qualified.