Stories from the Sales Frontlines

graphicguy

Off topic, but I had a similar experience when trying to cancel my AOL account. The AOL person kept trying to switch me to a different service, pleading with me to keep my AOL e-mail account (even though I hadn't used it in a year), trying to get me to admit that I somehow "loved" AOL. He still persisted even after I told him the computer that had AOL installed on it was long gone.

Those guys just refused to cancel the account until I finally got mad after about 30 minutes of his garbage and said "just cancel the gd account....I don't want your service anymore...."

Then the AOL guy said I was obnoxious. They must all go through the same training.

graphicguy

Don't know how many dealerships do this, but I got an invitation to play in a golf outing sponsored by the local Lexus franchise.

Probably about 75 people showed up for it. Before the outing began, they offered test drives of all the Lexi. Some took advantage of the test drives, some just wanted to play golf and declined. I went for a spin in an IS 350. I just bought an Acura TL several months ago. But that IS 350 is a very nice vehicle.

TLs are very nice cars, but the IS I drove handled better, rode better, is faster, had a nicer interior.......

Hmmmmmmmmmm! I'm definitely becoming a strong dandidate for "chronic car buyers".

snakeweasel

Back when I had AOL (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth) I knew people had this trouble so I took a prememtive strike and stopped the payments to them. Then I called to cancel the account and got the same stuff you did I basically said close it or keep it open I don't care I already stopped the payments.

A few years ago after my mom died we called and told them that she had passed away and would be closing the account. The idiot actually told me that if they closed the account my mom wouldn't be able to access her e-mail or chat with us on line. :confuse:

Anyways back to your regually scheduled rants.

hipfan77

:surprise: That is the highlight of my otherwise slow day. So much for salespeople not having scripts!

I did get an online request for a car with a manuel transmission.

qbrozen

I've never dealt with AOL, but the folks at the Discover card calling center are easily the most difficult I've ever dealth with. My wife couldn't even handle it and I had to get on the phone and YELL at the guy to cancel the account. After that one, I went and dug up all cards we had with Discover and called to cancel ALL of them. And I made sure they knew why I was doing this. We'll never have another Discover card.

british_rover

Oh my smart mouth has got me in trouble before I just held my tongue this time.

At a friend of my wife's wedding I said to the bride something along the lines of...

"Hey did you have to have the Army Corps of Engineers design and test the top of that dress for structural integrity?"

In my defense everyone else was thinking I was just the only one to say it.

corvette

The idiot actually told me that if they closed the account my mom wouldn't be able to access her e-mail or chat with us on line.

Others have reported that AOL will usually tell you that the deceased person will need to call themselves to cancel the account. AOL is notoriously difficult to cancel, and if you try to cancel via fax or mail (to avoid their sales pitch), they will send back a card claiming you forgot to include all of the required information. Easiest way to get out is to report your credit card as lost or stolen, and don't give them the new account number. They will send collections notices, but I've never heard of the bills actually proceeding to collections.

You can also haggle with the CSR to get them to give you six months of free service instead of cancelling. You get free service with little haggling, and the CSR doesn't get dinged for losing a customer. In five months, three weeks, repeat the process.

snakeweasel

OH BR you would fit right in with my family. We all have smart mouths and in that siutuation we most likely would have beat you to the line.

graphicguy

Several years ago I was trying to buy a new Toyota and had a trade-in. We all know the drill, salesperson takes my car keys to evaluate my trade-in. We sit down at his desk to go over the numbers on the new car. In short order it became clear we weren't close on numbers, I thanked him for his time and asked for my car keys back. He kept insisting that the trade numbers would make the deal more palattable.

He went to get the "trade numbers" from the used car manager. When he didn't come back for about 15 minutes, I finally went to the receptionist to see if she could find my salesperson. She paged him, and on my insistence, finally went looking for him. After waiting another 30 minutes, she came back and told me the salesperson was gone. The guy left for lunch...with my keys.

No one knew where he went to lunch. They ended up giving me a new car to drive until they tracked him down. He finally returned and called me to tell me he had my keys. I told him I'd return his car the next day, after work. He said he needed the car back immediately. I didn't return it until after work the next day.

The General Manager met with me, appologizing profusely and said they fired the sales person for going on a break in the middle of a deal. He asked me if I still wanted the new car "at invoice". I said thanks, but no thanks.

I'm sure the sales guy just forgot that he had my keys in his pocket, but to take a break in the middle of a deal is something that would be a "fireable offense".

raybear

I meant the dealership can't do it? Sometimes a little giveaway replaces a bigger discount.

raybear

My worst offense came on my wedding anniversary; I had a sweet lil'o'lady from down the line who showed up late on that particular Saturday for a test drive that turned into a sale. She left right at closing and as we were just locking up the Business Manager handed me her driver's license that I had left on the copier. Since she had already left and wasn't home yet I had to wait to reach her, when I confessed my mistake she was very nice about it but inisted on having the license right away...which made me late for my date with the missus. I managed to inconvenience my wife, my customer and my Sales Manager as well as myself just for being careless.

ateixeira

That's hilarious. Obnoxious, too.

-juice

tsgeisel

I did get an online request for a car with a manuel transmission.

Well...aren't a lot of cars assembled in Mexico?

bobst

Except for the ones made by Otto Mechanic in Germany.

moparchrisks

Did someone here actually reference the Marx Bros? I am in some heavy company!

Actually the wife hasn't even found out I bought the car yet. I hid it at my dealership. I get old hot rodders on demo drives and swing them by it; yesterday, in a Charger SRT8 (you guys should demo one sometime). It is part of my "evidence book".

cccompson

A hail storm came through the area last Thursday and today one of the big stores is advertising "up to 50% off MSRP" on 1900 (nineteen hundred) damaged new cars from seven different manufacturers.

How does the insurer calculate the dealer's damage claim in such circumstances? How should a potential buyer calculate a fair price and are such cars a good value for buyers? How much horizontal surface damage can the dentless repair places fix?

mac24

First rule, always buy the car and not the deal. So if the vehicle that's your heart's desire really is among the 1900, and if it hasn't aquired a salvage title, I'd value it at the lowest price you could have bought it for undamaged, less the cost of repair, less say 10% for the aggravation of performing this whole dance.

Dentless repair artists vary greatly in their skills, but I doubt that any wil give a firm price without seeing the damage in person. Remember also that dentless repair doesn't mean invisible repair. Evidence of the repairs will often be visible at the rear of the damaged panels and may well affect resale value in the future.

On balance, you need to make a really great deal to equal an averagely good deal on an undamaged vehicle.

corvette

As mac24 said, repairs are visible from the inside of a damaged panel. Often, the tools they use scrape the paint and primer off the inside of the panel, making it more vulnerable to rust in that spot. If I were planning to keep the car forever, I'd apply some touch-up primer if I could see bare metal on the inside of any panels. And there may be some you can't see.

rrsafety

Buying etiquette advice...

If I do a round of internet emailing, does that mean I have to continue to deal with the internet salesman at each dealer? If I get an internet quote , can I bring that into any salesman at the dealership and start the process or am I the internet salesman's "customer"? Thanks.

mac24

Don't know what the salespeople will say, but personally I'd start the conversation with "John Smith and I have been emailing about the '06 XLZ. Is he here or should I speak to someone else?".

Although there's no 'rule' it just seems like the polite thing to do.

snakeweasel

Etiquette would say that you should stay with the same salesman during the sales process unless there is an overwhelming reason not to. Such things would be not feeling comfortable with the salesperson, they are rude or abusive or they simply are not there.

cccompson

I thank you and corvette for your comments. Actually, I've started shopping a bit for one of the makes the store carries and was planning on going there anyway. Your point about "invisible" repair evidence is particularly appreciated.

And, yes, I quite agree that the value of ANY damaged item is always less than the original price less the cost of any needed repairs.

tucson_girl

Don't bother with salesmen in the store. Get the internet managers bidding against eachother. That's what we did for our new Tucson. All you have to do is email the other offerers the lowest price and ask if they are willing to beat it. One of them usually will.

steine13

(i) The 'internet manager' at almost every store is just another salesperson. What else could (s)he be?

(ii) you still have to go to the store eventually

(iii) staying with your contact at the store, regardless of title or label, is just common courtesy.

-Mathias
(not in the business, not in sales)

rrsafety

Sent out a quick email to some local Honda dealers to see who had what colors available.... one place responds with the colors they have, but the other responds with:

I tried to call you a bit earlier. Please call me at your earliest convenience. Thank you for choosing XXXX XXXXXX Honda of XXXXXXXX!

Best regards,
XXX XXXXXX
Internet Manager

First, they didn't answer my question. Second, I asked that they email me with a response (so I could easily keep track of who had what).

LOL... I have $27,000 to spend and they won't even answer the first question I ask ... you truly can't make this stuff up....

heel2toe

Based on discussing it with a few internet salespeople at various Dallas/Fort Worth dealerships, it seems that a lot of them are paid comissions on volume rather than dealer profit.

In my opinion, that makes a *huge* difference in the quality of the experience. I would not even attempt to deal with a walk-up salesman...

mikefm58

" First, they didn't answer my question. Second, I asked that they email me with a response (so I could easily keep track of who had what).

LOL... I have $27,000 to spend and they won't even answer the first question I ask ... you truly can't make this stuff up.... "

LOL, I had almost the same experience with a BMW salesman. I asked him for a quote giving the details of what I was looking for. He responded with a number but didn't say if that number included destination, fees, TTL.

When I asked him for an OTD number itemizing everything, we played email tag for a week trying to get him the details he needed. He said he needed my complete address, not just my county to figure the sales tax, which I know is wrong.

He never asked me to call him, just sending question after question via email. I finally gave up and never responded to his last question. You would think someone selling high end vehicles like Beemers would be better.

mac24

When I asked him for an OTD number itemizing everything,........

The beauty of an OTD figure is that nothing needs to be itemized. Doesn't matter what they choose to include by way of mop'n glo, processing fees, etc., etc., it's only the final figure you're interested in.

This vehicle, this color, this spec., what's the price for me to drive it away? It's the easiest of all ways to compare prices from a selection of dealers on a specific vehicle.

mikefm58

" The beauty of an OTD figure is that nothing needs to be itemized "

Yeah, I know but he wouldn't even give me an OTD number.

snakeweasel

The beauty of an OTD figure is that nothing needs to be itemized. Doesn't matter what they choose to include by way of mop'n glo, processing fees, etc., etc., it's only the final figure you're interested in.

I don't know about that, if the OTD price is the lowest but they charged me $300 for scotch guarding the car you bet your life I am going to get that brought down.

mac24

I doubt it, and why would you care? If they give the best price on the vehicle you want, what does it matter how they allocate the pricing on the various line items? $26,600 + $300 Scotchguard or $26,875 + $25 Scotchguard, it's all the same. If the OTD price is the best you can get why would you be unhappy at how it's broken down? Surely the final amount that comes out of your pocket is what counts, rather than how it's calculated.

jmurman42

Where do I begin here?

Ok, I stared our Internet Dept about 6 years ago. At that time we would give a selling price and indicate that taxes, tags etc were not included. Times change and so did we. We went from not incliuding Destination to including destination...it was really the price of the month club. We listed pricing on the web, emailed coupons etc.

Finally at the close of l;ast year I decided...against the advice of my sales team...to give a detailed and itemized price to every customer on every car that they inquire about.

I heard "they'll shop us" Yeah...so what

I heard "The other dealers will beat our prices by $25 and we'll lose the deal" Yeah, we'll maybe so, but those people I don't really care about selling to and the crummy surveys and hassles that they bring.

After one month, the results were excellent. We heard stories about dealers that won't give out pricing, to the dealers that respond with just a price not including this or that...finally we started getting customers who said that because of HOW we responded, we earned their business.

That is our business model and that's what we are sticking with...we quote the lowest price we'll sell for and we stay with it.

Sure we get people that say..."Dealer X (they NEVER say WHICH dealer it is) has your price beat. Our response is "Thanks for considering us...please feel free to contact us if things don't work out."

snakeweasel

I doubt it, and why would you care?

I care because if I am being charged $300 for $1 worth of scotchguard applied to my car I am not getting the best price. If I pay $100 for floor mats I can get at wally world for $30 or for wheel locks I can get at NAPA for $25 then I am not getting the best deal.

If their OTD price is $26,600 + $300 scotchguard then the deal I will pay for will be $26,600 + $X for scotchguard where X is much less than $300.

And FWIW you may doubt it, I would not.

dino001

OTD has an advantage that if you shop competitively, you are likely not be charged $300 for scotchguard, as another place may not ask for it.

Another way to see it is that in "honest" place your OTD pricing may reflect real cost structure whereas at "dishonest" place they may assign large profit to one part of the deal and take a hit on another. Advantage of it (for them, not the customer) is that it lets them advertize unrealistic unit prices and many customers actually believe they got the product "below invoice". However, if you call them on it, you may simply not get the OTD minus inflated scotchguard. OTD takes car of it as your total is still lower than the competition (assuming that's the case) and both sides remain "happy" regardless of structure.

As far as I am concerned, it could even be $1 for the car and $25K doc fee and $1000 for mud flaps plus applicable taxes, as long as it's lower than another guy's real price. I'll likely let them know what I think about it one way or another, but it is not likely to be alone deal killer (but it would certainly raise my alert level as indicator that other tricks are likely to come)

mikefm58

You have an excellent internet business model, very similar to the dealer that I bought the 05 Civic from last September. And I commend you for that.

I'm finding out that there isn't much dealer competition here in central Florida for BMWs. Just one dealer who has a store in Orlando and Lakeland, which covers all of the in-land part of central Florida. There's a couple dealers on the east coast in Daytona and Melbourne, and there's probably a couple in Tampa.

I guess they think there's no competition.

snakeweasel

Another way to see it is that in "honest" place your OTD pricing may reflect real cost structure whereas at "dishonest" place they may assign large profit to one part of the deal and take a hit on another.

You hit an another reason why to get an itemized listing, I don't play games with the dealers I will not let them play games with me. If they are going to offer a good deal on the car don't insult me by adding on things that are pure profit onto it to sweeten it for yourself.

tamaraster

When I went to buy my CR-V, I emailed several dealerships asking for a price by email. Most of them replied by asking for my phone number or trying to set up an appointment, etc. One guy wrote back with a price. It seemed like a reasonable price, and I bought my CR-V from him the next day. I really resented that the other dealerships wouldn't just give me a price. (I think some of them I contacted via the forms here, which are specifically about getting a quote, so that really irked me.) I know they have to do whatever they think is best for their business, but I was willing to drive ~40 miles (despite having a Honda dealership practically next door to me) to complete a deal with someone who gave me what I asked for.

slaterac

You know you can by scotch guard at any automotive store and just spray it on yourself. That's all the dealers do anyway.

rrsafety

jmur.... great post.

Even though I got some non-responses from some dealers yesterday ("call me and I'll tell you the colors I have"..lol) I did get one response that had a price quote in it that was actually a very respectable first offer (about $3k off of MSRP) so at least we aren't starting off playing the game of "these are all going for sticker..." lol...

There seems to be a wide disparity between the customer service one gets online.... I think I'll shop the offer I got around a bit and see what happens, but I'll give last chance to the guy that gave me the first offer and hope he comes in with something good, 'cause I'll go with him for getting the ball rolling so aggressively with his first (and unrequested) quote.

rrsafety

I haven't bought a car in three years, and back then interest rates were LOW!!

There was company back then, (people's auto loans, maybe) that had great rates and they'd mail you a blank check that you could use. My dealer actually beat it by half a point (somewhere around 3%, nonpromotional rate as I got all the dealer cash incentives, etc.) So that is what I'm used too.

I was pretty stunned then to find rates so high, even from supposedly inexpensive online auto loaners. Capital One is at 6.25 for 48 months!! My local bank is at 6% and my Credit Union is less than that.(EDIT: Credit union is at 5%)

I guess I have two questions:

Who else online is there to give inexpensive loans? Is Capital One the cheapest and what happened to all the other companies that were out there three years ago?

Any thoughts as to the (nonpromotional) rates Honda is giving to buyers now? (EDIT: can they beat 5%?)

I have perfect credit and always get the lowest available rates....

Thanks for any insight....

wlbrown9

One simple reason rates have gone up is that the FED has raised rates something like 17 times over the past couple of years. This is supposedly to keep inflation down or fight inflation.

albell

I dont see many interest rate "bargains" out there from non-manufacturer finance arms...in fact, its likely to get worse as the summer progresses.

I was shopping this weekend for a used Audi cabriolet and walked into the dealer with the blank check from Capital One Auto (bought PeopleFirst a year or two back.) I used this as a negotiating tool, as dealer said he thought he could beat both the Capital One rate and the rate from Audi, by at least a 1/2 percent.

Information is your best bargaining chip.

Kirstie_H

Hey folks, let's leave this discussion for Sales stories and take the questions to the purchasing strategies or buying tips discussions. It's getting a little too muddy here

isellhondas

I'm sorry but an interest rate in the 6% range is a GREAT rate at this time!

I'm surprised you are "stunned". As the feds raise their rates these simply get passed on.

What happened to those cut rate companies that were out there a few years ago?

Most of them discounted themselves out of business.

moparchrisks

You might look at the window sticker that came out of your Chrysler. We do give a year of service on some DaimlerChrysler vehicles but there is a charge for the year of service. It is posted on the sticker. Unless of couse, you somehow negotiated it into your final contract.

Correct me if I am wrong; I am often enough.

Most of our customers just ask how to preset the local AM radio Classic Country station during the delivery. There is no annual fees for that one.

Satellite radio is awesome though. Our owner was helping a delivery to a couple in their 70s and pointed out the Playboy channel to them. He must know something I missed out on during the presentation.

isellhondas

" We do give a year of service, but there is a charge for the year of service"

What am I missing? It sounds like you don't "give" anything if you are charging for it.

Honda gives a three month no charge trial.

qbrozen

Yeah, but Honda's is XM. eh.

i've got XM and sirius running in my new Accord for the time being. I will NOT be picking up the XM tab when the 3 months expires.

I'll have to check the Chrysler's window sticker and report back ... if I remember to dig it up tonight. At the time, I really wasn't interested in it and even told them to take it off the price of the car because I didn't want to pay for something that I wasn't interested it, but just happened to already be installed in the car. I would think killing the subscription would have come up at that point if it were an option. Unless Chrysler prepays for it and passes that through to the customer??? Whatever the case, having that subscription in the Chrysler has made me a believer and I bought a portable radio with a 2nd subscription for myself (hence my ability to have it in the Honda).

mac24

riposte

I'm posting this for all the sales folks who wonder why their customers walk into the store assuming the dealer is going to try to rip them off...



N.C. Auto Dealer Sentenced After Massive Loan Fraud

June 24, 2006

STATESVILLE, N.C. -- A former Charlotte-area auto dealer and 10 of his employees were sentenced for their roles in years of fraudulent loans that cheated lenders and stuck some customers with inflated vehicle payments they couldn't meet.

James F. Keating, 42, of Charlotte owned and operated the Five Star, South Boulevard and Monroe auto malls using widespread corrupt practices, prosecutors said.

Keating was sentenced Thursday to three years in federal prison after pleading guilty in November to conspiracy to commit mail fraud, U.S. Attorney Gretchen Shappert said Friday.

Robert Stamper, 36, of Charlotte, the former general manager of South Boulevard Auto Mall Inc., was sentenced to two years in prison by Judge Lacy Thornburg in Statesville.

Keating, Stamper and the nine others sentenced were each ordered to pay restitution of more than $1.5 million. The nine other Keating employees were sentenced to between a year of probation and 366 days in prison.

Shappert said the two men were sent to prison despite their "extensive cooperation" in an investigation "of fraud-related activities in the automotive industry."

"We hope this case sends a message to the automotive industry that it's time to clean up their act," she said.

An indictment charging Keating and 30 auto dealership employees last July said between $6 million and $15 million in fraudulent loan applications were created and processed by the defendants between January 1998 and February 2004.

"Fraud permeated the Keating dealerships and all employees were expected to do whatever was necessary to make a sale," the indictment said. "Keating pressured his finance managers and salespeople to do whatever was necessary to sell cars, even if the customers did not meet the financial qualifications to purchase a vehicle."

Stamper was accused of using his laptop computer to generate false pay stubs, Social Security benefits letters, tax returns and other documents that could be used to support inflated claims about a buyer's income. Stamper also sold fake documents to co-workers preparing loan applications, prosecutors said. He charged $25 for a false pay stub and $100 for two year's worth of faked tax returns, the indictment said.

The charges involved both sales in which car buyers were aware of the fraud and some in which they did not know what was being done, Shappert said. The indictment alleged that when dealership employees met customers who refused to participate in fraud, they forged the customer signatures and continued with the sales.

In some cases, customers who bought vehicles with inflated loans were unable to keep up with their payments and had their vehicles repossessed and their credit damaged, prosecutors said.

bigdveedubgirl

Things like that do not happen to people who are educated, have excellent credit.

The people who were screwed and exploited were ignorant people who did not pay their bills and wanted more car than they could afford.

Hate to be cold. But when someone who makes less than me, and cant pay their bills and want a car payment twice to three times what I pay there is a problem.

Yes those people were scum and they should be punished and I pity the families who [non-permissible content removed] husband or wife is in the pokey out of greed.

But the whole industry should not be punished for a few scumbags.