Stories from the Sales Frontlines

tamaraster

Fraud is bad, and I'm not justifying what the dealership did, but they weren't actually defrauding customers for the most part - they were defrauding the banks that lent the money for the purchases. Most of the customers probably thought they were doing them a favor.

corvette

Sounds like Jerry Lundegaard in Fargo. Great movie, although it's not really car-related.

tsgeisel

Heh. Some favor. "Sure, here's your car. Your monthly payment is only half again what you can really afford, but you're getting the brand new vehicular monster you wanted."

tucson_girl

(i) The 'internet manager' at almost every store is just another salesperson. What else could (s)he be?

(ii) you still have to go to the store eventually

(iii) staying with your contact at the store, regardless of title or label, is just common courtesy.

-Mathias
(not in the business, not in sales)

Internet Sales Managers - based on my experience - have a different pay structure as was mentioned. I dealt with Internet Managers from Honda, Ford, and Hyundai. All operated in essentially the same manner. Most were very helpful via email too. Only a couple tried traditional sales approaches by calling me on the phone and trying to get me to walk on the lot. I nipped that in the bud pretty quickly.

Of course I eventually had to go to the store to test drive the actual vehicle I was being quoted as well as sign the papers. I would never buy any car sight unseen. But I was sure treated without any of the usual nonsense - very matter-of-fact.

I was totally impressed by the dealership and how pleasant the process ended up being. Never thought I'd buy brand new - but now I may never go back to used. Sure is nice having an untouched car.

steine13

Things like that do not happen to people who are educated, have excellent credit.

Not to disagree with your statement, but that's hardly relevant. We have laws in place to protect everyone, most of all -- not least of all -- the vulnerable and those who don't know better.

I usually don't have a problem educating myself, but I really hate it when every little thing becomes a dissertation.

A great counterexample is the mortgage laws in the U.S. -- and absolute dream compared to Germany.

Level rates, everything spelled out for you, no prepayment penalty (usually), it's wonderful. And strict protections.

So the only place people regularly get nailed on is shenanigans with escrow... no escrow, no problem.

If everything was as easy as mortgages, it wouldn't matter much how smart the customer is.

... so long as they stay away from the interest-only ARM... I guess it was a bad example after all... I'll go away now... sheesh

-Mathias

biancar

Jmurman, thanks for having that business model! That's exactly what internet shoppers want, and it's a smart dealership that realizes it. Glad it has been successful for you.

jmurman42

it sure is and dangerous too...you need both hands on the steering wheel.

moparchrisks

" We do give a year of service, but there is a charge for the year of service"

What am I missing? It sounds like you don't "give" anything if you are charging for it.

I agree. We charge for it. There is no free service. Just wanted to clarify it for the Chrysler buyers. I popped a pic here of a 300C window sticker...



I am seriously considering what gbrozen did in regards to purchasing portable and possibly both services. It's good stuff.

And for disclosure, this vehicle was hit by dime sized hail six weeks ago. Our dealership pays to repair it when sold.

Kirstie_H

I think some people mistake the word "included" to mean "free." This vehicle does, in fact, have one year of Sirius service included.

I can see how a consumer could quite easily translate that to mean "at no charge to me." But it's just pre-paid.

british_rover

It is just like the free preventative maintance that many euro vehicles come with now.

It is not free it is just pre-paid and already worked into the cost of the vehicle.

qbrozen

ummmm... are you referring to the $195 charge? Isn't that for the radio itself? An in-dash Sirius unit easily costs that much (with installation). So I still think the subscription is free. If not free, VERY cheap. Or, even if you consider paying full price, at $12.95/mo, that's $156. So if I only paid $40 for having an in-dash sirius receiver factory installed, then that's a steal. Either way you slice it, you're getting a discount in there somewhere.

moparchrisks

Hmm. I agree it is a great/fair deal. I think the $195 charge is for the black bump receiving unit that attaches to the roof and attached wiring to the head unit. So maybe the subscription service portion is comped.
But if it is installed, the customer is paying for it as an option clearly marked on sticker. I would guess that aftermarket would cost a lot more for the unit, black bump and subscription costs. So yes, IMHO a fair/great deal, but not a free one. Most customers love it and I recommend it.

Another nice note is that it will include Internet radio as well so you can Sirius out at your desktop when not outside in your car. They issue a username/password to log into their website with and tune in.

gbrozen have you used the internet radio yet?

qbrozen

gbrozen have you used the internet radio yet?

almost every day at work.

corvette

I am shocked (in a bad way) that a 300C can be optioned to over $40k, but at the same time, shocked (in a good way) that it includes xenons and headlight washers--I think GM only offers that on Cadillacs.

british_rover

There is a lot of old body E-Class in the 300C. It is actually a pretty good vehicle. I have driven several 6 cyl and one V8 model since we have a chrysler store and I was impressed.

rrsafety

Looking to buy a car this week, and get a nice opening quote from an internet salesman at a local dealer, so I stop by to have my trade-in appraised.

I'm there (the internet guy isn't) but no problem, right? Just need the trade-in valued. Manager and a salesman come out and start filling out a P and S before the trade-in is even valued (which annoys me) and they come back with a value that is $1000 lower than the lowest of the NADA, KBB, Edmund's. Compared to the Fair Trade-In Forum number I got, their offer was $1300 lower.

I say its not good enough and I need an extra $1000 and the salesman says, "We already gave you $1000 and points to the MSRP number!!

I say, "wait a second" the quote I have for the new car is one deal, now we are talking about the trade-in. The manager says to me, "that's just not an intelligent way of looking at it" Everytime I tell him that I'm not interested in talking about the price of the new car but am only interested at that point in talking about the trade in, he says something like, "that's just illogical".. like I'm an effing idiot and don't know anything about how car dealers operate.

So I get up to leave... the manager tries to grab my papers out of my hand. Huge scene at the front door.

Nightmare.... as bad as a bad Hollywood movie. :mad:

jipster

Huge scene at the front door...Nightmare...as bad as a bad Hollywood movie.

Well? Let's have the sordid ugly details man! Unless you plan on writing a movie script over the incident, let's pick it up from when the manager grabbed the papers out of your hand. Soooo, we can all learn from your experience.

sgtslate

I was recently involved in a blow out scene with a salesman and manager at a local honda dealer. I was looking for a new 06 Civic for my mother. After test driving the vehicle and evaluating the ride the salesman asks if we would like to buy. I said sure if you give us a good price. He then points to the sticker and MSRP and says "There is your price". I chuckled and figured lets see what they would give on our trade and gave them the keys to get the info. They came back about 1k low on the trade. I told them I will not pay MSRP and the trade value is low. The salesman then stands up and waves his arms above his head and says "Ok we are done then" We decide to leave because the salesman is shady. Of course he has to get the manager who comes over and tries to schmooze us. I told the manager your salesman stood up and said we are done so then we are in fact done with your dealership. Then I ask for the keys back and they start playing games. "Oh well we are just trying to save you money". I tell them to return the keys. He continues rambling. I ask again as a jesture to my cell phone and indicate I am calling the police now. I then call the salesman and manager "sharks". There is a mjor comotion now and customers are all focused upon us. The manager then yells "You hear that people, I am a shark" I couldn't believe this!

After we left, we kind of chuckled. In a weird way, it was fun calling them sharks and creating the comotion but also very sad on how the car buying process works. Please beware of the old key holding scam where they don't return your keys.

socala4

That's a great story. I would post that on the Purchasing Strategies or Buying Tips threads.

Suggestion for next time -- if you need to give them a key, make it either a copy or, if you can't make a copy, the valet key, and keep a set of keys for yourself. If worst comes to worst, you can drive away using your own set of keys.

Kirstie_H

That's a shame - the one thing I'd say is that we've seen a lot of reports of people paying MSRP for the new Civic right now, because it's a "hot" vehicle. So, I can understand why they may not have wanted to sell it for less.

However, the ridiculous key holding trick is just plain wrong. I don't think you should have to compensate by having an extra key - if that happened to me, I would immediately let them know in plain English that they have exactly 30 seconds to return the key before I call the police.

isellhondas

Wow...I guess stores like that still exist?

ateixeira

Wow, that's pretty arrogant...

-juice

danf1

No disrespect intended for isell, but that is what we hear about the Honda and Toyota dealers around here. Now to be clear, I'm quite sure that they don't do that to everybody, but we only see the people who don't like the way that they were treated at the previous dealer they visited. I'm quite certain that when people leave my store, they probably complain about something at the next place they stop. It makes it fairly easy to sell someone a car when they tell you up front what bothers them.

robr2

I've negotiated at plenty of dealers and have never had my keys become lost. I can't believe in this day and age that it still happens - I'm sure it does but it's hard to fathom.

biancar

Just one more of the many reasons why I've never traded in a car at a dealership. I've always sold my cars privately, no problems, and since I know exactly how much I've sold the old car for, no problem or game-playing with the numbers when I buy the new car. At least no game-playing as related to the trade...

sgtslate

It is rather simple to deal with the key holders but I didn't realize it at the time. Once they ask for the key to get vin and miliage, I will immediately stop all negotiating and go silent. Once the keys are returned to my hand will I began speaking to them again. I was naive and didn't even think about it at the time. It is a rather simple plan but should work just fine.

This happened to us at another dealer where they held my keys and then claimed they forgot to give them back to us. I do not know if this is true or a stratagy that car dealers use to keep people negotiating.

dino001

Consumer Reports have repeatedly ranked Honda/Toyota/Nissan store purchasing experiences at bottom (just the process, not the product). No wonder: generally superior product, high demand, low nominal margins (difference between retail price and invoice), environment with customers trained to expect haggling/discount. On top of it you have manufacturer rewarding volume more than anything else.

All that them incentive to become even more creative with "cash extraction/cost obscuring" techniques, as the pressure mounts to sell more. It also allows them to be more obnoxious ("like you are gonna buy a Chevy, LOL!") or more pressing ("man, I had minis only this week, I need to score bad").

Of course there is another part of the equation - consumers. If the product sells for X, there is no reason to sell it for X-$1000. Just because they don't give a discount, it does not mean they are crooks. It just means they think they can sell it for X. Our part is just to find out if this is really the case. If not, good for us, if yes, we either change our expectations or change the product.

ateixeira

I still can't believe they hold the keys hostage. If they told me the keys were lost I would stand up right then and there and say "Let's go find them, and then I'm leaving". The deal would be off no matter how good the terms.

I'm sure it's a stall tactic. They want to frustate the sale out of you, given the time you've invested.

-juice

grandtotal

That would work. Alternatively have them supply you with a loaner until they "find" the keys.

biancar

Consumer Reports have repeatedly ranked Honda/Toyota/Nissan store purchasing experiences at bottom (just the process, not the product).

Interesting. For the most part, that has not been my experience. I've test-driven at one Honda store (in Michigan) and was treated very well. Of Toyotas, there is one dealership (in Virginia) where they outright lied to me about the availability of a certain color, but there's another dealer 10 miles away where I bought my Camry (back in the mid-90's), and I would go there again if I wanted a Toyota.

I've had the most experience with Nissans. There is one store where I will never darken their door again, as they "took advantage of my youth" a long time ago, and inflated the price and added on every surcharge known to sleaze-world. However, the dealership in Michigan where I bought my Maxima and my local dealer where I recently bought my Z both rate very highly for customer service, professional and helpful attitude, fair prices, good experience all around.

Around here (Northern Virginia), it's the Volkswagen and Acura dealers that have the terrible reputations, so much so that the local car columnist talks about it quite often. People on his on-line chats have come in with some doozies of stories about mistreatment by the VW dealers, especially.

He is positive about VW cars, by the way, but keeps up the refrain of "VW HAS to do better by its customers in order to improve their reputation."

[Deleted User]

I almost went through that a few years ago. We were miles apart from the numbers I felt were acceptable and wasn't going to waste a lot of time, so I thanked him for his time and would be on my way if I could get my keys. Well, he wasn't sure who had them at the time, if I wantesd to chat a little more about the numbers he'd hunt them down. I stood up and said, "when you find them, give me a call," and walked to the door. Of course the salesman sarcastically said "you're gonna walk home?" I kept quiet and walked out to the parking lot and proceeded to get into the car I was looking at, as I STILL HAD THEIR KEYS! Never knew someone could run that fast, out the door he came with my keys, saying he would see what he could do with the trade, come back in. I said I didn't have time and went to another dealer and bought from them.

biancar

That's funny! Great way to handle it.

geo9

SGT lives in the Philly area...............No wonder!

stickguy

Well, I bought 2 Honda's in the last 2 years, at 2 different dealers (the big 2 just outside Phila in NJ). Excellent customer service at both, greeted promtly, treated well, good experience (after the sale too). I actually referred friends to both salespeople, and wouldn't hesitate to go back to either dealer if I needed another car.

Did well on price too (I think) with minimal but normal negotiations. Of course they started high and all that, but we pretty quickly got down to the bottom line (a lot closer to my number than thiers!).

I'm sure there are poor dealers for Honda, but not these IMO. I also did OK with the local Toyota dealers, especially the smaller, locally owned place. Nice people.

Only real bad experiences have been domestic. I was completely ignored at the GMC/Potiac place (That was an intential typo for the old timers here..), and the Chevy place was a sleaze shop, that also did not seem to want to bother to talk to me.

Funny that I walked into the BMW dealer (where I actually did a deal on a 5 series) after driving up in a Mystique, and was treated like royalty (drive anything!) but the Chevy dealer wouldn't give me the time of day!

jipster

I kept quiet and walked out to the parking lot and proceeded to get into the car I was looking at, as I STILL HAD THEIR KEYS!

LOL...smart move dad. What were you planning to do had they not run out with your keys? Drive the car around the lot till they come out with your keys...honking the horn all the while.

[Deleted User]

I probably would have just sat there for a while or like you said, drove the lot. I hadn't thought that far ahead. In fact, I was actually surprised that I made it all the way to the car and had it unlocked before he came running. I just wish I could have seen his initial reaction...another time maybe

gsemike

My experiences at Paragon Honda in Queens NY drove me to buy a Nissan. I leased a Civic from them despite some underhanded tactics, and then gave them a shot at selling me an Accord when the Civic lease. It was another subpar experience but this time I didn't let them get away with it. Koeppel Nissan who is a just a couple of blocks from Paragon was much better to deal with.

snakeweasel

Well, I bought 2 Honda's in the last 2 years, at 2 different dealers (the big 2 just outside Phila in NJ). Excellent customer service at both,

Seems like every Honda dealership I have gone into around here the sales people seemed to have the attitude that a customer was an inconvience. And in the few times they actually came up to me and I told them right off the bat that I was just looking they became very rude.

1racefan

I bought a Honda back in March at a Honda dealership that had only been open for 5 months. I went in expecting arrogance (per some of the stories that I had heard), and it ended up being the best buying experience I have ever had. Salesman was super laid back and friendly. The negotiations took all of 15 minutes, and the deal was done very quickly. Never even met the sales manager, handled the deal with the salesman, and the paperwork with the F&I guy. Salesman has even contacted me a couple of times since then to touch base.

Maybe this dealership was different since they had only been open for a few months?

gsemike

Try as we might, I don't think that we can make generalizations that entire networks of dealers are either good or bad. Paragon Honda sucks. The 2 around Philly are good. That's the way it is.

What was astounding to me, was that the answer to practically every question I asked about the Accord was "are you going to do something today?" I was a returning customer with an expiring lease. I hate that crap.

ateixeira

Amen to that.

No 2 dealers are the same, I've found. Most are independently owned.

I happen to like the no-haggle ones because you don't focus on wheeling and dealing, but instead on finding the right car.

-juice

sgtslate

Well I held back stating the name of the Honda dealer who treated me like crap but what I have noticed is the smaller family owned dealers tend to treat the customer better. The big dealers with acres of land and huge inventories tend to treat me like crap.

chris2max3

Is this Honda dealership near Jacksonville, NC? I've been researching vehicles lately. I have a 97 Quest right now but we are thinking of downsizing to a sedan or wagon since the kids(3) are out of carseats and have a f150 if we need to haul big stuff. I've been researching everything-accord,fusion,matrix,camry,odyssey, sienna. Just can't decide yet. Thanx

1racefan

This was a larger Honda dealer, but I went in on a Friday night. I only saw 1 other customer out on the lot, the whole time I was there. I also overheard some salesmen talking about how Friday nights were typically slow - maybe they figured they needed to make me a deal as they didn't have much other hope of one at the time!!!

1racefan

General Charlotte area.

chris2max3

Thank you

mikefm58

It happenned to me about 5 yrs ago at the dealership here in Orlando "Where everybody rides". I was astonished and laughed at them.....they didn't like that.

au1994

I've had one dealer (Chrysler) do the key trick on me. He left me sitting for 45 min. while the trade was "being appraised". On the off chance it took that long, common courtesy would have been to come by and check on us to see if we had any questions, give us an update etc. From then on I only give them the ignition key and I bring a spare set with me. I'll go find that sucker and drive off if the stall tactic is used.

As for some of the other dealer experiences that have been posted, mine will bolster the theory that its all makes and all dealer sizes that can treat you good or bad.

2 Toyotas - First new car buying experience, I don't recall it being particullarly bad. But I was very nervous. First time's never good right. Second experience was in 04 and was very positive. Agreed on trade number quickly, but took about a day on their 4 Runner.

1 Honda - Did the deal over the internet. Back and fourth once and the deal was done. Painless.

1 Ford - Typical stuff, hit me high with the first number, something like $700/mo on a 99 Explorer. Tried to sell me every aftermarket accesory in the book, but not too bad once we agreed on a #.

Most of the others deals were fine. While shopping I've had to put up with the typical "one day only prices" "are you going to do business today" etc. What ever, we've all got to make a buck.

div2

Back in 2001, my wife and I went to the Louisville Audi dealer to look at a couple of pre-owned Audi A4Qs(we had even called ahead and set up an appointment). My wife and I had already decided to buy one if we could get @$14000 for our car and if they would come down $500-$1000 from their asking price-which was full NADA retail. After the test drive, it took them nearly one hour to appraise our car and work up a deal(I had already told them we would buy within the week if the numbers were right). They came back with $12500(@$1000 under the auction price) for our car and their full asking price for their A4-a BRIGHT green lease return which had been sitting on their lot for at least six weeks. After all this the guy has the nerve to say: "Our used car manager is out. When he gets back next week maybe he can get you some more for your trade and maybe I can get a little off the A4." We did buy a pre-owned German car the next day, but needless to say it didn't come from Ingolstadt. When the Audi salesman called to follow up I let him know that we would have bought the A4 that day if they hadn't jerked us around and then tried to gig us on the trade. The Kermit Green A4 sat on the lot for at least another three weeks.

dino001

I think many people confuse two things. One is being out of touch by asking too much, another is being rude or deceiptful about it.

Many people would be steaming just because they don't get a discount - and that's clearly wrong attitude, because there is really nothing wrong with wanting too much - everybody does that, including consumers who want too deep price cuts. Just say no and walk away.

However, if someone hijacks our keys, misrepresents numbers on financing, pushes unwanted equipment/services, appears to threaten or is just a jerk, it's completely out of line.

Some of those low Honda/Toyota scores may come just becuase people didn't get price they wanted. Not all, though...