Stories from the Sales Frontlines

mark156

Kirstie started a Motorhomes thread called, Purchasing Motorhomes.

Mark

michaellno

I am currently driving a car in which I had custom leather seating installed.

The car, as delivered from the factory, came with a black cloth interior. I, however, was determined to have leather, and so I had it installed. I was given a palette of about 20-30 colors to choose from (bumblebee yellow, anyone?) and chose a color that happened to match the headliner almost exactly. Turned out better than I had hoped.

I am still driving the car today, so I don't know what will happen to the resale value when the time comes to sell it.

I do know that I talked with the dealer that I bought the car from (well, a satellite location) and they offered me book value in trade, should I be so inclined.

One man's experience ... your mileage may vary.

PS. My cousin and I installed a sunroof (not electric, just the flip-up kind) into one of the first cars I owned. Was a very scary feeling putting that jigsaw into the roof and flipping the switch.

Of course, that car got totalled so I suppose the jury was out in regards to value.

snakeweasel

A good installer would know better than to compromise structural supports. And they certainly wouldn't unknowingly hack through wires. Heck, even a cutrate installer should know better than that.

Not saying they will (even though there is a chance as everyone makes mistakes) but the fact remains that no manufacturer is going to warranty anything that is out of their control. A major modification (even little ones) can affect the car. Punch a hole in your roof don't expect the factory to say "thats ok we will fix any problem that might cause".

snakeweasel

About your seats did they replace the whole seat or just replace the cloth with leather?

michaellno

From what I can tell, they simply recovered the seats with leather. They did the inserts on the doors as well (which was also cloth).

mazda6iguy

Aftermarket wheels are a huge detractor on the cars value. Whenever we get a car with aftermarket wheels whatever number we put on the car is totally dependant on getting the factory wheels put back on the car.

I would think that aftermarket wheels would be ok... but I guess it depends on the dealer. Where I live, there is a Ford dealer up the street that has all sorts of unusual cars in the used car section. These are some classic cars and customized cars (some with NOS, lowered,etc.) and he gets a premium for them. He sells them both on his lot and on Ebay. Guess it depends on who youre dealing with.

snakeweasel

It totally depends on who you're dealing with. A 19 year old kid might want that two door coupe that is lowered and has that big spoiler with the expensive spinning wheels and the lighting package. However that won't be desirable to the 45 year old businessman. Now guess who usually has the most spending bucks.

mazda6iguy

I know what you mean, I am that 44 year old businesman. But a couple of the cars this place had looked ok. Like the '64 Chevy Impala and the '64 Ford Galaxie he was selling a few months ago.

mazda6iguy

Not saying they will (even though there is a chance as everyone makes mistakes) but the fact remains that no manufacturer is going to warranty anything that is out of their control. A major modification (even little ones) can affect the car. Punch a hole in your roof don't expect the factory to say "thats ok we will fix any problem that might cause".

What about conversion vans? I remember that not too long ago a local chevy dealer was selling sport trucks made by Mark III (I think is out of business now). Who warranted those?

isellhondas

If it's done right, most people will assume the car came from the factory like that. People also like to say their cars are ALL leather. They might be surprised about how little is really leather. I don't know how they can get vinyl to match the leather inserts perfectly?

We no longer let the customers pick their own leather colors from the samples after a couple of bad experiences.

The leather company knows best!

Aftermarket sunroofs are another story. They never are as good as the factory ones.

socala4

The aftermarket sunroof should have deducted value from the car, and a dealer would certainly be wary of it or demand a discount on a trade-in because of it. A lot of private party buyers might be hesitant as well.

That being said, you only need one buyer, and if your buyer was willing to pay for it, then more power to you. (Since you're not selling cars in volume, you can afford to wait for that buyer.) And yes, ASC is a reputable provider, which should have helped.

biancar

Aftermarket sunroofs are another story. They never are as good as the factory ones.

That is pure baloney, friend. I found the ASC sunroof to be equal to if not better than any factory one I've had, and I've had sunroofs in my cars since the early 1980's.

I'm sure it depends on the product and on the installation. For me, the product and the installation both were fine. And it was backed up by its own warranty. In fact, the dealership where I bought the car also arranged for the sunroof installation, and I specifically asked at the time if it would interfere with any Toyota warranty, and was told no, it would not.

ASC has been around a long time. They wouldn't have survived if they turned out crappy products that wrecked consumers' cars.

biancar

Kirstie started a Motorhomes thread called, Purchasing Motorhomes.


Mark, there doesn't seem to be a link and when I did a search for "motorhomes" or "motor homes" got back a "none found." Does the topic really exist?

tsgeisel

I was not especially young, but especially naive when I bought my next-to-last most recent car. I fell for every trick the dealer threw at me - some salesman made good commission from me.

So when I got my '96 Civic, I never thought that the sunroof might not be factory installed. And, in fact, now that I'm selling the car, I only *just* discovered that it wasn't an option in the original.

It's worked as designed since I've had it, hasn't leaked, and unless you're familiar with Honda design, you really wouldn't know that it wasn't factory installed.

And it doesn't seem to be hurting the resale value either (the 169k miles is doing that...).

tsgeisel

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0d34dd/0

I can see it under the Smart Shopper forums.

theflush

I think that tasteful, conservative (not Pimp My Ride)after-market alloy wheels would be more valuable than factory steel wheels.

isellhondas

I agree, the ASC aftermarket sunroofs are the best on the market but given a choice, I would go with a factory unit.

They are definatly not "better".

qbrozen

Punch a hole in your roof don't expect the factory to say "thats ok we will fix any problem that might cause".

Well, of course not, but it won't cause any problems if done properly. I'm sure there has got to be a case out there where Zeke hacked a hole in the roof, then it leaked and caused the radio to short out, in which case the dealer refused to replace it under warranty. The fact is, a good aftermarket moonroof, put in by a good installer, will do nothing to hurt the car in any way that would void your warranty.

qbrozen

i guess that depends on how you define "better."

The ASC we had installed in our Pilot was far bigger than the unit the factory now offers. Plus it closed on its own after you turned off the car and got out. So it was better in those respects.

However, like you, given the choice, I'd still rather have a factory unit. Although I'm not sure I can say why.

mac24

The trouble is that the wheels that appear conservative and tasteful to you, might be seen as 'Pimp My Ride' by the next guy.

qbrozen

that's absolutely true.

I recently learned to KEEP your stock wheels! Even if you get new ones, keep the old ones stored somewhere so you can put them back on when you sell the car.

I replaced my stock volvo wheels with an aftermarket set that I thought were very understated and clean. I then sold the stock ones on Ebay. When I finally went to sell the car, I received very firm opinions on the non-stock wheels. Some hated them and would not consider the car because of them, others thought they were great. It certainly cut down on the buyers for the car. I had to wait for just the right person to come along who liked the car, AND the wheels, AND had the money.

geo9

MOST "factory" sunroofs are actually made/engineered
by ASC. Most early sunroof/convt. cars were sent to
the ASC company directly for installations direct from
the factory then to the dealers.................

jmurman42

Honda has already given it's dealers notice that we are NOT to do any aftermarket installs on moon roofs, or after market leather installs.

Anything that might interfere with any of the safety systems cannot be touched without voiding your warranty.

We used to send cars out for leather and moon roofs...no longer.

qbrozen

voiding the warranty on what exactly?

Aftermarket leather has always been a bad idea where side airbags are concerned.

robr2

voiding the warranty on what exactly?

It's probably a way for Honda to CYA themselves due to their new ACE body structure. They want it known upfront that they've told everybody that no aftermarket accessories should be installed that could compromise that structure.

Basically it'll cover them should anyone sue them because nobody told them they couldn't modify the structure.

biancar

So far no one has touched on radios/stereo systems. Any comment on whether pulling out the stock system and putting in something better is a good idea or not?

(Purely hypothetical question by the way, I wouldn't do it on either car I have now.)

jmurman42

for one thing the side curtain air bags and the moon roof.

The drains for moon roofs normally go down the A pillars and through the body...to install an aftermarket moon roof you need to remove the side curtian air bags to install the drains...with leather seats you have side air bags which would be covered with the leather covering.

Honda is definately covering their collective *selves* If we send out a car to have aftermarket equipment installed and the installers mess up and you get into an accident, who are you gonna sue? The installation company, us and Honda.

We don't even give out the comapny names any longer...we just say that they can find them on the Internet or Yellow Pages.

snakeweasel

Honda has already given it's dealers notice that we are NOT to do any aftermarket installs on moon roofs, or after market leather installs.

The last 3 or 4 cars I have bought I was warned not to do such modifications as it would void the warranty and might negatively affect the car.

robr2

So far no one has touched on radios/stereo systems. Any comment on whether pulling out the stock system and putting in something better is a good idea or not?

AFAIK, when it comes to warranty issues, dealers are not obligated to replace any item under warranty as long as they can prove that the aftermarket item caused what you want covered to fail. If stock speakers are ruined by your aftermarket radio, it's your issue. If the tranny is bad, they can't blame it on the the radio.

As for resale, you have to find somebody who would assign some value to an aftermarket audio system. To me, it's a reason to walk away.

Another thing, the dealer isn't obligated to put back your modifications if they need to take them apart in order to fix a warrantied item. They can charge you for that ie if they need to get into the trunk panels to fix light wiring under warranty and your have a big giant subwoofer system/NOS bottle/strut tower brace there, you can't expect them to pull that out and put it back in for free.

mac24

I always stick with the standard system. Firstly, I'm one of those boring people that focus on driving, the road, the big picture, to the exclusion of almost everything else. I rarely have the radio on, never have the phone on, and seldom engage in extended conversation. So the sound system is the least important option for me.

Second (because, as I can observe from the other vehicles I share the road with, the above really only applies to me), I would worry that an expensive high quality sound/nav/video system would also be attractive to the kind of people that use a crowbar to enter a vehicle.

wibble

Non factory wheels can make a car ineligible for some manufacturers certified pre-owned programs.

audia8q

with leather seats you have side air bags which would be covered with the leather covering.

I can't speak for all aftermarket leather companies but the one we use actually has different leather covers for cars with side airbags...they split open just like the fatory seat...The potential liability is huge, so I suspect that quality, established leather companies take the side airbags into consideration.

qbrozen

for one thing the side curtain air bags and the moon roof.

Well, this is what I'm trying to get at. It CAN mean you get denied a warranty claim on something very specific and related only to what you have modified. Some people are simply stating "it voids the warranty," without being specific. It does NOT void the entire car's warranty, which is all I'm trying to say. And, thanks to magnussen-moss, dealers can't just deny claims because they "feel" you've modified the car in a way that caused the failure. They have to be able to prove it.

mac24

.......dealers can't just deny claims because they "feel" you've modified the car in a way that caused the failure. They have to be able to prove it.

In theory that's true, but in practice the situation is reversed.

Say you fit wider wheels with a non-standard backspacing and 500 miles later a wheel bearing fails. There's no question that the wheels you fitted will impose a greater loading on the wheel bearings than they were designed for, however it's unlikely that they would fail so quickly, so it's reasonable to assume that the bearing is faulty.

The dealer denies your warranty claim for parts and labor on a new bearing based on the non-OE wheels. You say "Prove it". He says "Sure, take me to court and I'll prove it there". See where this is going? You go to court and dealer brings his expert witness, probably a one of his most qualified factory trained technicians, to confirm dealer's original theory.

So, now the onus is on you to disprove the dealer's expert. It's going to be much harder to disprove that the modification didn't cause the problem. It's also unlikely to be financially viable to get this far.

In practice, if you want to fix something that could possibly connected with any modification that's been made, you're pretty much on your own.

tsgeisel

So far no one has touched on radios/stereo systems. Any comment on whether pulling out the stock system and putting in something better is a good idea or not?

It depends on the quality of the stereo installed. And the condition of it.

My '96 Civic, the stereo gave out after some number of years, and rather than pay the dealer to have it replaced, I just got a cheap one, with a CD player this time, and had that put in. I then replaced that after it had been stolen, and got one with a removable faceplate. I have no doubt that that stereo would only increase the value.

My new car, which *is* a new car, has the standard Hyundai radio in it, which doesn't play burned CDs (well, the one I tried), much less mp3s, and doesn't have an audio-in or anything. I plan on upgrading that to something that's iPod compatible (now that I have one), and that also should increase the value - or at least not hurt the value, and improve my driving experience.

The radio is a functional component that is independent from the operation of the car. It's one of the few mods you can make that might actually increase the value, but certainly shouldn't decrease it.

On the other hand, don't expect an increase in value anywhere close to what you paid for it. People who think "a radio is a radio" won't care about the quality, and audiophiles will likely not be impressed by anything other than *their* ideal radio, and might well plan on replacing anything you put in anyway.

snakeweasel

It's one of the few mods you can make that might actually increase the value, but certainly shouldn't decrease it.

Oh I don't know, I have seen way to many stereos that are the wrong fit altogether and are either sticking out of the dash, reset way to far in, have gaps or are sitting in crooked. Usually just a case of forcing a round peg into a square hole.

qbrozen

Nobody said life was easy.

larryallen707

It's one of the few mods you can make that might actually increase the value, but certainly shouldn't decrease it.

I love big, high quality, after market stereos. I have had every high end brand from Alpine, Fosgate, Zapco and the list goes on. However, when looking at used M3's last year I was turned off by people who had pulled the factory system and went after market. In fact, didn't buy one solely because of that. Just me.

prosa

I sometimes see flyers from local used car dealers - usually dealers of the We Finance Everyone variety - that advertise "reprocessed" cars. These are usually fairly expensive models no more than a few years old, with suspiciously low prices.
Is "reprocessed" just a nicer-sounding variation of "repossessed," or does it mean something else? Just curious.

moparchrisks

The Chrysler 300s are a perfect example of a car that gets the dubs. Thankfully here in Kansas I haven't seen many 300s with the 20" or 22" wheels. Style wise, to each his own, but it is something that firmly breaks the warranty on these cars in several different ways.

DaimlerChrylser, last I heard, allowed aftermarket wheels up to 18" but after that they voided warranty mainly due to the Traction Control which is based in some part on the size and weighting of the wheels. It seems like traction control comes on a lot of new cars. They leave the factory tuned for a certain type of wheel and are unpredictable with aftermarkets. Plus the strain on the wheel bearings and the entire suspension up front. But mainly I would worry for the driver in a troubled driving scenario needing that traction control or any of the electronic stability systems installed to do their thing.

For the record I like driving my 64 Chrysler New Yorker. The warranty is long since dead, it ain't safe but it also doesn't speak C++ or track satellites to bring me music. And my wife does a pretty mean Nav impression when I miss my exits.

I guess that makes me the air bag in the car, too.

bolivar

"The radio is a functional component that is independent from the operation of the car. It's one of the few mods you can make that might actually increase the value, but certainly shouldn't decrease it."

Well, I'm not an expert, but, for example, Cadillac.

It's my understanding that starting in about 2003/2004, the factory radio is a very intergrated part of the electronics of the car. If the radio fails or is removed, the dash dies. Everything on the dash.

Cadillacs since 1996 have had 'serial port' communications between many parts of the car. The trick that after market radio installers do is to leave the orginial radio in the dash, just cram it back into the dash somewhere, and then install their XM-9000ZOOM model in the hole.

I think a lot of other models in GM (and others?) lineup would have the same kind of electronics, with the radio intergrated into the other computerized components.

For me - keep it stock. I would never put an aftermarket radio, alarm system, or remote start in a late model automobile I own. You are asking for trouble in the future. Electronic trouble, probably one of the toughest to track down and repair.

tsgeisel

It's my understanding that starting in about 2003/2004, the factory radio is a very intergrated part of the electronics of the car. If the radio fails or is removed, the dash dies. Everything on the dash.

Ah. I sit corrected. (Well, slouched a bit, but you know what I mean.)

But, as I said, there are a lot of cars where the stock radio is just miserable. Or it fails. And in that situation, definitely better to go after-market than broken.

corvette

I put an aftermarket MP3-CD player radio in the Jetta I owned. The car had a standard DIN slot and removing the factory radio caused no ill effects. Crutchfield supplied a wiring harness that plugged in to the factory harness. No splicing into the factory wires required. When I sold the car, I replaced the factory radio and sold the aftermarket radio for about half what I paid for it.

cadillacmike

Most dealers will not give any allowance for an upgraded aidio system.

When the AM/FM Cassette in my 92 LeSabre started hanging up ewhile playing tapes in 1998, I had a Fujistu system put in with a 6 disc changer in the trunk and 4 new speakers (same size as originals). I kept all the OEM stuff.

Later, when I was trading this car in for a 1995 Fleetwood, durng the "negotiation" over the trade allowance, I mentioned the Cd changer, etc, and the salesman said that that wouldn't matter in the trade value. So i said I have the original equipment, should I have it put back, he said that would be better. So I paid the audio shop to re-install the all OEM stuff.

Then I had the Fujistu system sans speakers put in my 1968 DeVille Convertible as an under dash radio/tape with the CD changer in the trunk. I kept the original radio in the car and the original speakers. (had some round speakers installed).

I still have the speakers in case something on another car blows - they wouldn't fit in the DeVille. Since then I have tried to buy cars with the best factory audio available.

biancar

And my wife does a pretty mean Nav impression when I miss my exits.

I guess that makes me the air bag in the car, too.

Good one! Hope your wife laughs at your jokes, too.

kyfdx

Hope your wife laughs at your jokes, too.


Not likely... my wife never does..

pat

Maybe it's because you're not funny? :shades:

snakeweasel

Or maybe she is his Margaret Dumont.

kyfdx

You know... that is exactly what she says.. :surprise:

But, I always tell her the problem is with her sense of humor... because, I know that I'm funny..

pat

Hmm, you may be on to something. kyfdx looks exactly like Groucho Marx!