Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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the bottom line is that it doesn't have to be true. If his dealership will not sell a vehicle without someone giving their SSN then either give the number or find another dealer.
It is also on the title application. The only time you are NOT required to give your SSN to a TX dealer is if you actually DO NOT HAVE ONE. And even then you are required to sign a state document certifying that you truly do not have a SSN
Wait a few posts ago you posted that:
""[A]n automobile dealer may obtain a report only in those circumstances in which the consumer clearly understands that he or she is initiating the purchase or lease of a vehicle and [emphasis mine] the seller has a legitimate business need for the consumer report to complete the transaction."
Now you say its required?
Which is it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Federal Vs. State
Also... perhaps you may like this site:
link title
Dealership attorneys have consistantly stated better safe than sorry when dealing with these guys!
Can we PLEASE agree that there is at least a strong enough base of knowledge for the Dealerhip to interpret the NEED for this information? You guys are acting like we are just making this up! The Fair credit reporting act supports pulling credit when there is a clear need (HOT CHECKS gives us all the rights we need to pull every cash paying consumer... NOT that we DO! We just can!)
The SDN list (the last link) Look at the fines! Every Dealership in the country is essentially "THE BANK" in a lending transaction until we "sell" the loan to the ultimate finance company. And there is gray area I admit... but what would YOU do with the choice of complying or facing the fines and jail time? As I have stated before... The Dealer would rather to the "easy" thing and pull a bureau rather than sift through a list. doesn't make it right... makes it easy. (path of least resistance) We are just people too!
Well, for some of us the 90K vehicle is an extreme example. I think the point is the dealer was making money at my offer (granted not very much ). They used one excuse to pull my credit - and (as someone said earlier) then used my good credit towards a negotiating tactic to get more profit. I started to walk and they excepted my (initial)offer.
That is the point of Ethics were talking about here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0256.htm
All credit reports are now filters through the govts lists.
Most people who write me a check for $20+ understand this and it goes no further than this.
However there are occaisions when a customer will not want to give me their SSN for a check. We call the bank at that point and have the funds electronically transferred to our account immediately.
Not really...
Motor vehicle dealerships must comply with the international emergency economic powers act and executive order 13224. This prohibits US citizens from entering into any transaction or dealing with individuals or entities identified either by executive order, treasury department, or sec of state as posing significant risk of committing terrorist acts or providing support to these organizations or individuals.
The office of foreign asset control maintains a list of designated nationals and blocked persons.
This requires the dealer to be 100% sure who they are selling the car to....or face significant fines and jail
All this is in addition to each states rules....
Please try to see it from our point of view. We must constantly battle with misperceptions about what is and what isn't required. We dislike the process as much as you and it isn't going to get any better. Try having this same conversation day-in and day-out with people like yourselves behind the scenes saying "DON'T DO IT!"
I know you are standing up for the consumer and that is GREAT! Hopefully you can see a little more of where the dealer is coming from. We are also under federal law to protect the very information we gather. (also laden with hefty fines for non-compliance
http://www.ftc.gov/privacy/glbact/glbsub1.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/privacy/glbact/glbsub2.htm
Why? because I ask for people to support what they say? If I believed everything anyone told me I would believe that Elvis is alive and that the Masons are running the world.
As for the form, I looked following your directions and even poked around a bit, but time is short and I couldn't find it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/services/vehicle_titles_and_registration/title_your_v- - - ehicle.htm
I thought elvis was alive. He isn't?
The Masons only run the DMV
If nothing else we have the most active forum again.
When they asked how I would be paying tax, tag, and title on the vehicle I told them with a credit card. I specifically requested that they tell me if they are going to be running my credit because there was no need since it was an even trade. Salesman told me they would not need to..
Guess what.. Yep, sure enough I got a monitoring alert on my credit (I recently was the victim of fraud) and the friggin dealer pulled my credit report. I have bought multiple cars from this dealer, and have had all of my services done through them.. They know who I am.. I have no idea why in the world they would need to run my credit since the car I traded in was paid off and I had the title in hand. Pisses me off that they ran my credit anyway.
I am going to send an letter to the general manager and will most likely no longer take my vehicle there for service.
That is the point of Ethics were talking about here.
I still don't see this "point of Ethics."
As previously established, dealerships can run a credit check on you prior to agreeing to accept a personal check. Noting your high credit score they see an opportunity to offer you financing to bridge the gap between your offer and their counter offer. Smart gamesmanship in my opinion. They gave it a shot. You said no. End of story.
Is the part that bothers you about this the fact that the whole 1500 represented profit since they ultimately accepted your lower offer? This is an unfounded assumption BTW. You can't know what if any profit they would make on the transaction. It has been firmly established here an elsewhere that dealers will sometimes accept losses on individual sales to meet some other bonus targets.
But for the sake of argument let's say that the 1500 represents pure, unadulterated profit. So what? You didn't end up paying it. You were prepared to walk and they wanted the sale more than they wanted the extra 1500. So you did well.
The only way your scenario would rise to the status of a "point of Ethics" for me would be if there was something fraudulent about the loan. They offeredy you a higher rate than you qualified for, but said it was the lowest rate, for example.
If the price was already agreed, it was not a smart tactics, it was a sleazeball tactics - like telling over the phone it was 25K and then saying: "Sir because your clothes are from Nordstroom, we would like to offer you a special $1500 extra price for nothing".
If the price was not set yet and he agreed on the credit check for "future check verification", I would say tough life, Chuck - just uncovered your cards too early
2018 430i Gran Coupe
This may be true to a degree. Dealers are not charitable organizations. If they decide to "loose" money on a deal, to help them make a bonus for the dealership, to get an extra allocation, FOR WHATEVER REASON they are in effect using a particular deal to make money.
If only I had the money value of all the time that was spent to post on that topic!!!
THIS IS CORRECT!
tidester, host
That is if people don't call it bashing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I sat in the back and let the customers take the front seats. Lots of wood and leather and that "just detailed smell". We pull off the lot and around the first corner and I notice there is definitely something that is not the sort of smell you want in a luxury car. The smell hits the customers in the front and they take on a decidely green hue. They make their execuses, make a square and just out of the car as soon as it hits the lot, only pausing to give me looks that would have killed from 50 yards.
Well, it's time for a little investigation. This is obviously something that the 160 point pre-owned certified problem didn't cover, or our crack team of detailers. Checked the trunk - nothing, under the seats - nothing, the door pockets - nothing. Finally I get to the rear seat center arm rest. Fold it down, open the lid and there is, not one, but two extremely pre-owned diapers crammed in there. Why? i'm not even going to think about that one but it took a long time to get the smell out of that puppy.
Yes, there are other ways. What about buying the very same car from a different dealer?
"USE OF INFORMATION.—Information received by a financial institution pursuant to this section shall not be used for any purpose other than identifying and reporting on activities that may involve terrorist acts or money laundering activities."
The above is from the act. So, with you car sellers astute investigative abilities, you 'reasonably suspect' someone of 'terrorist acts' or 'money laundering activities', can inquire into a database furnished by regulatory authorities or law enforcement authorities. Having to guess at this, I then think our government (regulatory and law enforcement) would want to be notified if this inquiry finds someone.
No, no. Can't use this info to run a credit check.
So, in a cash transaction if you ask for my SSN, you must have already decided I may be a terrorist or money laundering.
RE-reading this gooblie goop, I don't think this is what it says. All it says is the govmnt can give a list of potential bad guys to financial institutions. I see no real guidelines about how this info is to be used. Nothing about what you have to gather or when the list is to be queried.
Republican open-ended crap.
Then I must side with the dealers on this one - by giving away your personal info (credit check) prior final agreement you simply handed to them them one more shot, which they took (and they missed). In their spin the $1500 bridge financing was a way to "help you" in buying the product. At the moment the price was still $1500 more than you "had", so they said "how about financing the difference, MR. Customer?". Legitimate offer - not that you had to agree on it (you always can walk away from the price you don't like), but it was legitimate when presented at the time. And eventually no harm was done anyway since eventually you got the price you wanted.
There is no ethic issue here, whatsoever. Asking for more is not unethical, using information that was handed to you is not unethical.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Unfortunately there are skunks in my neighborhood an a few times each summer something sets one off and you can get the slight scent of skunk over the entire neighborhood. Usually it only lasts a few hours. Anyway one foggy night something set off a skunk and I noticed it driving home. Well the scent got into my car and was there for about a week. Even with the windows open almost all the time (and it was cold out) it took a while for that scent to go away.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually my concern is privacy and identity theft.
Also if you really wanted to you could get any name and SSN and present that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Personally, I don't understand the paranoia. Everytime you apply for a job, apply for a credit card, apply for insurance coverage, etc., they will pull your credit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
So do insurance companies; they've found out that good credit scores=fewer claims.
Quick story for you. Two weeks ago I sold a guy a Supercharged Range Rover Sport. We actually had more then one in stock which is a first for us and they of course wanted a discount. Normally we do not discount those vehicles at all because we normally have either one or none but this time we had three.
We eventually offered them about a 1000 dollars off the vehicle of their choice. It was a father and son team and the father said basically, "well if that is the best you can do on left over 2006 models I guess we will have to wait till the 2007 MY vehicles come out and use our X-Plan PIN."
Now I am a little confused because our model year still has about six months left in it. I explain to them that unlike most other makes our model year actually lasts the whole year. We don't release our 2007 MY vehicles in the second quarter of the year. We won't get 2007 MY cars until nov./dec. and we will not have them in any real numbers until Jan. of 2007.
Even then with the Supercharged Range Rover Sport being such a limited production vehicle, only about 2,000 imported per year, we will not have several of them on the lot to sell and we will not give any let alone X-Plan discounts. Our first 2007 MY Supercharged Sport is already pre-sold and has been for months as the person who bought our first 2006 HSE Range Rover Sport wanted to get the first 2007 Supercharged Sport.
His response: "Well you have to give me X-Plan I qualify for it. All you do is just put in my X-Plan PIN and they will give you another vehicle it does not effect your allocation."
ME: "We are not required to accept X-Plan on any vehicle it is at the dealers discretion. As far as allocation in concerned while that might be true on normal production vehicles but for limited production cars there are not extra vehicles for us to get. We only get 10-12 Supercharged Sports a year based on our allocation and unless we happen to have three of them in stock we are not going to offer discounts."
At that point he was pretty upset that we would not give him thousands of dollars in discount on what he considered a year old vehicle. The son was just sitting there looking kind of embarrassed as the car was actually for him and I think he was about 23 or so.
I did what I rarely do I turned him over to our Centre manager to see if we could unravel the mess. He re-explained what I said and did the unprecented thing of actually accepting an X-Plan offer on one of our in stock Supercharged Sports.
I really couldn't believe he did that as we normally sell the thigns for full MSRP but it was his call to make.
Ahh but the story is not over... tune in next time.
i guess thats the canton/avon/simsbury area for ya...
sheesh!
I was selling Mazdas when the RX-8 launched and during its 2 month hot streak I was actually assaulted by a man when I told him that we would not be offering the S plan on the car. He got so angry with me that he threw his pen at me (I always thought it was my job to do that to him :P )
My new posistion in an online only car sales environment has taken me off the "Frontlines" but I have loved all of the stories so far. Especaially from you Brit, as I am comforted to know that there are customers that drive you to drinking in highline sales as well as volume dealers!
Oh, and I am not 100% sure what a "lot assassin" is.
I would think the idea behind those plans (X, S GMS, etc.) was exactly to prevent dealers from cherry-picking both customers and models. The dealers could decline program participation, but could not elect in partial participation. Now your Rover might have been ineligible for X-plan, but not because you say so, but because Ford/LR say so. You guys might get in trouble with them if someone reports conduct like that.
But what do I know - would have to read the fine print and I'm too lazy to do that. Perhaps some other Ford group dealers could say something about that.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I don't even want to think what would happen if we were required to sell Supercharged Range Rovers at Z-plan which is just invoice plus RAG and destination charges.
Here is a portiono of the bulletin on X-Plan BOLD is my emphasis.
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PROGRAM SPECIFIC NOTES:
DEALER ELIGIBILITY:
1. X Plan retail sales are eligible for retail incentives programs in effect at the time of retail posting (APR,
Lease, Cash Rebates, etc.). Retailer Cash (flat payments) must be transferred to the X plan participant
(unless otherwise noted) according to the following:
• Retailer Cash that is announced as compatible with subvened LRCG programs – In this instance the
participant is eligible for the subvened LRCG program and the announced Retailer Cash amount.
• Retailer Cash that is announced in lieu of subvened LRCG programs (ATS Cash) – In this case the
participant is only eligible for the Retailer Cash if they have opted not to take advantage of a subvened LRCG
program.
2. Under reasonable circumstances, a Retailer is not obligated to sell X Plan vehicles from their inventory.
However, every reasonable effort should be made to obtain a vehicle through other channels – national
reserve, vehicle order process (OFF ROAD) or dealer trade.
3. Sales guides are eligible for any Sales Guide incentive monies in effect at the time of the retail posting
date. If there is no Sales Guide incentive program at the time of sale, LRNA expects the retailer to
compensate the Sales Guide from the 4% (Invoice, before freight) Retailer profit.
4. X Plan retails will count towards objectives in any objective based program in effect at the time of retail
posting.
5. Financing can be from any source.
6. X Plan vehicles are eligible for Business Builder.
- All authorized Land Rover North America Retailers (Excluding Puerto Rico)
- Dealers may choose not to participate
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Perhaps you need to make that a 161 point pre-owned certification - because there could be anything in those handy pockets and such.