Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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Usually in those cases you can get the situation resolved in 6 months or so and have their credit repaired within two years.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
regardless of "Patterns" MOST people are inherently good. We can all get into situations regardless of fault. Bad business decision (opening a business that failed) Health issues, loss of job, bad divorce, depression, etc.
It is the Finance Managers job to interview the customer immediately upon finding negatives on a credit file. One he/she has had the opportunity to interview the customer the decision can THEN be made as to which lenders to submit their application. The Dealership should never make credit decisions and if they do they are required by LAW to send the customer a declination letter. Better to just submit the loan app.
We have financed several people with "$20,000 +" collections with HONDA, TOYOTA, and NISSAN! I have done this personally. The lender is concerned with only ONE thing. Will THIS be a good loan and will THEY get paid back? Look for the positives NOT the negatives. The lender will see all of the negatives already, it is our job to find out why it happened, what has changed, and how it will be better in the future.
Nuff Said
The Anonymous Dealer
p.s. Kudo's for the customer for being straightforward. It takes courage to tell someone they have failed obligations. How many people do you tell your mistakes to?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
About a year or two later they are back refinancing again with ...you guessed it... more credit card bills..
It is amazing how people mismanage their monies.
Unfortunately, I found out, they will not be back anytime soon. The images didn't map properly with the new page format to the extent you may not even recognize your own flag!
tidester, host
I miss the flags, too, they were a cool feature. Esp. for us furners.
-Mathias
[who sometimes gets to be a programmer]
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Got mine back!
The Anonymous Dealer
Slow day at the moment... lunch lull
The Anonymous Dealer
comment: Show-off
additional comment: why didn't I think of that?
Through the camera: walking off in shame
Your enjoyment: Priceless
After all, the dealer shouldn't have any interest charges in that case as he would have for a car sitting on the lot.
Any comments?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And if you will excuse me I have to leave now... I have to get to the grist mill.
The Anonymous Dealer
(where is my coonskin cap?)
Sorry - I couldn't get the whole alphabet in there.
tidester, host
um... did you say you didn't show for the appt.? Because there is a charge when you don't show and the bill was probably legit. Doesn't matter if the Dr. retired, your appt was with the office. (just going by what you said) Apparently they didn't know how to explain the charge.
You got paid (according to your post) for not showing up for your appt. Now that is FUNNY!
As a "newbie" I had one GREAT Manager and one B A D Manager.
Unfortunately I was assigned to the bad one. everytime I waited on a client it was "Switch em to the green one" "get em to buy the damaged one" "Tell 'em $550 per month for the Corolla" "Stop wasting your time on that stroke!" "Don't wait on that guy... he ain't buyin'" "You need to stop caring and start selling!" (p.s. there aren't many of this guy left)
I was probably the nightmare hire for this guy because I have a pretty (Um... EXTREMELY) strong sense of ethics. He tried everything to get rid of me because I would not pull the bunk tactics he tried to get me to do and I still kept selling cars. My grosses were not as high as he wanted and he kept "browning me out" with all of the other managers. I was also pretty darn sure I was good at this and kept talking about how successful I would be (Bad Mistake since most of the sales staff hated me for my achievements) My life was MISERABLE and I almost quit several times. then the month came where I could do nothing right. The manager accepted maybe 10% of my offers and I was convinced he was trying to rid himself of me. (I was right) Then I came down with pneumonia. Out for 2 1/2 weeks and sold 3 1/2 cars for the month. My "supervising manager" told me I would be fired if I did not sell 18 cars the next month. This was a mid size store and flooded floor and there was almost no chance. (This is when his famous quote came out... "Is there something else you are good at too? Can you get a job doing that?") I appealed to the other manager as well as the general sales manager but I had no sympathy as I was "branded".
I worked every day "bell to bell" with no days off except for sunday when the store was closed. I turned every single customer to a manager regardless of circumstance... (I was chastised by the owner for making a service customer talk to the sales manager when all he was trying to do was find the bathroom (TRUE STORY!)) (that guy was MAD!!!)
At month end I SHATTERED the store record with 38 sales (signed and delivered) Previous record was 24
The manager who did everything he could to get rid of me had nothing to say. I told him "I did what you asked... and I didn't do it for YOU!"
The other manager? One of my best friends for LIFE and the best man at my wedding. The B A D Manager... Fired at the end of my record month. Why I don't know to this day but extremely happy he was gone. The best thing I learned from him is how NOT to sell cars.
The biggest compliment I have ever received in the Car Business.. (Tied for the record actually):
The used car manager told me (About 6 months later)
"I owe you an apology."
I had no clue as to why so I asked "Um... Why?"
"I told every manager at this dealership that you would NEVER make it as a car salesman and you should be fired." He replied, "and you have proven me dead wrong... to my surprise and satisfaction"
I cried... seriously... because I had experienced nothing but animosity since my arrival. (Since then my wife went to graduate school in TX and I had to resign. Left a 6 month notice and worked every day of it. Was offered a promotion to stay but my wife's career was more important no matter what they offered. Otherwise I would have NEVER left. Great Dealer and Owner)
the second biggest was just a few days ago when my finance manager (who is my employee) told me "you are NOT a good general sales manager. You are too good for the position and you should be running your own store or owning one"
I realize these seem self-gratifying but they are true statements. I post them not to make myself "feel" good but to relay the sentiment... you can be ethical, you can be right, and you can stand by the statement "I am honest" and still sell cars.
(By the way... to the NON CAR people... It is why I take a hard line with you. I am an ethical car dealer and I am the "Boss". So I know that we will never play the games you have experienced. You want to bash a dealer? Name the Dealer, date, and occurrence. Don't have the cowardice to throw us all into the mix.)
The Anonymous Dealer :shades:
Clear your credit cards each month, max your retirement contributions, pay your mortgage off on a 15-20 year schedule, and only buy cars for which you can pay cash...it is pretty simple, really.
Yes, it is.......but it requires a recognition of the difference between 'want' and 'need', a concept that seems to be beyond the majority of the population.
Brief story...again, several years ago. Shopping with a family member for a new Accord. Sales guy we had was clearly beleagured.
We came to a number that any other Honda dealership in my 'burg would have approved, but it wasn't a big gross deal...it would have been a mini for the sales guy, for sure.
This was at a store where they posted the monthly/weekly/daily sales of each sales person right on a graph on the dealership's front window. My sales person was dead last on that list.
The salesperson was knowledgeable about the product and seemed to be a genuinely nice person who probably wasn't really in the right career. During the test drive, I learned he had been at the dealership for 3 months and didn't do well in any of those months. He was an "ex" bartender who thought he could make more money selling cars.
The salesperson took our offer to the "tower" for approval. SM very distinctly and loudly chastised the sales person for bringing my "no sale" offer to him. Everyone in the dealership could hear him being dressed up one side and down the other by the SM.
Didn't make the deal. Sales person thanked us for our time. Before leaving, we went to get a soda from their vending machine. Sales person saw us at the vending machine, came over and appologized. I said "for what....we just couldn't make a deal....the sky isn't falling". He said that he had just quit (must have been a very brief conversation as we had just left his desk no more than 10 minutes prior).
I told him that I hoped we weren't the catalyst that caused him to quit. He said...."no, I was going to be fired anyway......you could have added a $1,000 more on your offer. My SM still wouldn't have accepted it because he wanted me gone."
I wished him well and we left feeling a little pity for the guy.
It's not so much as to WHO is ETHICAL, as to what is ETHICAL.
Please comment on the "ethics" of the following true story:
A year ago I went in to buy a new '05 Toyota 4Runner. I had an '02 Ford Explorer, but needed a tow vehicle for a small 21" foot 5,000 pound trailer. The Explorer had one of those 6 cylinder motors, couldn't tow anything.
I told them I would be cutting a check for the cash difference between the two vehicles, however I would be bringing the check the next day. I forgot the check book. So towards the end of the negotiations, we were $1,500.00 apart. They said (and I agreed) that they had to run my credit, if I was to bring the check the next day. They said it was an identity thing. I said fine. So I have a 780 FICO, and they came back to me and said, you know with your good credit, you could finance the $1,500.00 we are apart on. I said maybe so, but there is no deal if you do not meet my terms. My wife and I got up and started to walk out. When I had my hand on the door, they said OK, forget about the $1,500.00 you got your deal, bring your check tomorrow. So here I am, I have great credit, and would of paid $1,500.00 more (plus interest), if I would have financed the amount we were in disagreement over.
IS THIS ETHICAL? They used my excellent credit to try to get me to pay more. Your comments are welcome.
If it was a skinny deal on the new car, I'm not sure I blame them for the $1,500 underallowance... it's a bit much for my taste, but there's always room in their first offer. There has to be, because most people feel they have to haggle and get somewhere. If you accepted their first offer, they must have felt like Christmas came early.
I agree with you that that's a lot of money to be messing around with, but there's a certain rythm and dynamic to all this haggling, so I can see this happening without any intent to "rob" the customer. And $1,000 "underallowance" with a good deal on the new car is quite OK in my book. Somebody's gotta pay the expenses, and new cars is usually not who.
-Mathias
(Not In The Car Business)
I'm not sure I see an ethical issue here. You were trying to get the lowest OTD price and they were trying to get the highest. In the end, both parties agree on a price.
tidester, host
You said a mouthful!!!
More folks need to visit a third world country to understand the concept.
Seems like everybody was hating on you saying you would never make it...yet you were selling. Isn't that the name of the game(selling) or am I missing something?
As far as the price, trade-in value, etc., the dealer isn't being unethical by trying to earn as much as possible, just as it is perfectly acceptable for you to pay as little as possible. Your situation offers a perfect example of why you should rely on pricing research and negotiation skills, not faux "relationships" and happy talk to get you the best deal. If some of the dealers want to shout you down because you care about pricing, let's remember that they are in it for the money, too.
But this was certainly unethical:
They said...that they had to run my credit, if I was to bring the check the next day.
That's sheer nonsense, and the dealership was obviously just looking for a weak excuse to pull your credit report and try to run your deal through the F&I department for what was supposed to be a cash purchase.
A merchant check verification should have been sufficient to determine whether you had the paltry sum of $1500 in the bank. If a personal check wasn't good enough, they could have demanded a cashier's check in lieu of a personal one. There's simply no good reason to demand a credit check when the buyer is paying cash and taking delivery the next day, and any seller who would make excuses for it doesn't have the buyer's best interests at heart.
First off telling a story of a negative experience with a dealer isn't exactly bashing as it is a truthful experience. Secondly unless there is an absolutely compelling reason to do so it is best to leave names out of it.
Tell me any negative story about a customer you have will you give that customers name and address?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
All of our 6 cyl cars are retired service loaners with 5,000-7,000 miles on them. They are untitled demos that have been used by our customers when they need a car during a service visit.
We look at one of 6 cyl cars and he looks it over loves the improvements from the old disco. Before we even take a ride he makes me an offer. I tell him lets take a ride first before we start talking about price. We take a quick ride he is still impressed but not impressed enough to back off from his original offer.
That is fine his offer is not entirely unreasonable as it is right at the bottom dollar price we would let that car go for.
We go inside sit down and talk a little bit. I ask him if he is going to trade in his disco he says he is not sure. I try to bump him but he sticks with his original offer. He has some finance questions so I use that chance to confer with our F&I manager. I try to give him another little bump but he is still sticking by his number. He did a very good job of pulling a semi-bobst method.
We talk for a few more minutes ans I agree to his original offer. From the time I first greeted him outside we have spent maybe 45 minutes together.
Now remember how were were talking about hiding the trade till the end and how that is normally a bad way to negotiate?
Well now that we have agreed on a price he springs out his trade.
We have already settled on a fianance term and an aproximate rate and we are doing premilary numbers. I ask him how much he wants to put down. He says well I am just going to use my trade as a down payment. OOokkk well let me see your keys and I will get a number for you.
Talk a walk around the disco it is a 2002 with nearly 90,000 miles on it. Fresh tires, questionable brakes, lots of dents scratches including one fist sized one in the rear passenger quarter. It actually looks like someone punched the aluminum panel.
This isn't looking good. We start it up and tick tick tick tick tack tack tack. Hmhhh normaly amount of valve clatter from that engine at start up considering the age and a cold engine. Problem is this engine is still warm. The tick doesn't go away as it heats up either I think it actually got worse.
So we got a pretty beat up high mileage disco in the market of 3 dollar plus gas. Yeah it is not going to be pretty.
Me and our centre manger always try to guess on the value of car just by walking around it and looking at the mileage. It is kind of like a game we play to see who will be closest without looking at auction books are making any calls.
He guesses 8,500 and I guess 8,000.
After making a couple of calls 7,500 is all the money in the world.
I go back to the customer tell him the good news that even with the body damage and all of the miles his disco is still worth a solid 7,500 dollars.
He just gets up and walks out without saying a word. I follow him out to ask him what his thoughts are what he thought it was worth. He won't tell me right off the bat but eventually his buddy blurts out.
"The state assesed it at 15,000 dollars you should be giving us close to that and stop trying to steal a person's car."
The state uses the average of NADA retail to get the number for assesment and it does not even know what the mileage is. I tried to explain that to them but they would not hear any of it.
First, he professes to know nothing about the new lineup, but then hits the bottom dollar price spot on. Then, having spent time in negotiation with you, he refuses to say another word after you give the him the value of his trade. Sounds to me like he knew the value of both vehicles before he came in. As for the buddy sticking his oar in, where does that come from?!!!
That guy is one of many reasons why I could never be in sales on a daily basis.
Right.
If I have a trade -which is rare- I always make a point of knowing its auction value. If I can get within a couple of hundred of that I'm good.
Just to let everyone know and before this escalates we aren't going to let names of individuals -- buyers or sellers -- and their addresses to be posted in these Forums. So, you can all stand down.
tidester, host
We had one disco that was the same year as his but with only 30,000 miles on it and a nearly perfect body that we were asking $14,500 for. It was right out front and even after seeing that disco he still was adamant on the $15,000 value.
He only paid $32,000 for it when it was brand new cause I looked up his old deal. Honestly for the mileage and condition of the car $7,500 is strong money.
I'm not sure I see an ethical issue here. You were trying to get the lowest OTD price and they were trying to get the highest. In the end, both parties agree on a price.
tidester, host
ditto
p.s. in response
"You want to bash a dealer? Name the Dealer, date, and occurrence. Don't have the cowardice to throw us all into the mix."I apologize for the comment. So i'm touchy!
Thank you tidster
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So - it's OK for the dealer to put someone who is not looking for a loan, to be put in to one for the dealer to make to make MORE PROFIT?
Please don't misunderstand. I am just trying to figure it out from a Salesman (or Sales Manager's)point of view. I really don't see a middle ground here. If I would have gone for the loan, I would ended up paying more. If you can explain it to me that's fine.
From my perspective, this is why there is the "great divide" between the car buying public, and those that sell 'em.
I don't see what your issue is. You let them run your credit. You even agreed that that was appropriate since you had forgotten your checkbook. To me all you had to do was sign the papers and make an appointment for delivery the next day. A signed purchase agreement seems binding enough to me.
The problem is that the sales team lied about their reasons for demanding the credit report. They claimed it was to facilitate the cash sale, when their real intent was to sell a loan to a cash buyer.
What the dealership really wanted was negotiation leverage, when the buyer's credit report was completely irrelevant to the transaction. (Even if he had horrendous credit, that had no bearing on his making a cash purchase.) The dealer's willingness to use lies to justify pulling a credit report is the ethical issue here.
First, no one put you into a loan nor did they have the power to do so as capitano pointed out. But, if we accept and apply your premise generally, then isn't it unethical for a dealer to "put" anyone into a loan for the purpose of making a profit, particularly when the OTD price ends up being higher than what the buyer intended in the first place?
Just a thought.
tidester, host
I agree with you if the OTD price is MORE than the buyer anticipated. However, if done for ONLY making more profit, then we have a different interpretation of Ethics.
I agree with you if the OTD price is MORE than the buyer anticipated.
This happens quite frequently, I'm sure. That's part of the reason why the "four square" is used as a tool of the trade. Here's Edmunds' take on it.
If it was YOUR business and YOUR money (As a Business)... you know you would prefer a higher profit margin! We put ourselves in your shoes every day. Maybe try putting yourselves in ours every once in a while.
The Anonymous Dealer
p.s. don't get so hung up on the dealer trying to make a profit! It is not a non-profit organization.
A credit report is not an identification document. For a cash purchase, the credit of the buyer is none of the dealership's business.
They do not yet know why you insist on a $1,500 discrepancy and are now able to ascertain that the amount may be financed.
The buyer had no desire to borrow the money or to pay that to the dealership. No need to check for a loan that he didn't want for money that he didn't want to pay.
Maybe try putting yourselves in ours every once in a while.
I'll keep that in mind. Next time I go to buy a car, I'll pull a Dun & Bradstreet report on the dealership, and demand to see its financing agreement for its floor plan. Put yourself in my shoes, I'm sure you'll understand...
I like that!
tidester, host
It appears that in my circumstances (since my communication was VERY CLEAR) I give you this if the cash difference is XXX-that I would have FINANCED additional profit for the dealership.
This is the very thin line of Ethics....