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To answer another question... get ready! because almost every single dealership in the united states is going to pull your credit bureau because YOUR government wants to know if YOU are a terrorist!
And Chuck... I went by what was stated. No difinitive agreement was made. (So communication WAS clear) so they came to you with a proposal! How is a "Proposal" an ethical decision???
The Anonymous Dealer
LOL. Is that what you tell your customers when they want to pay cash for a vehicle?
Maybe they were just about near a loser and so tried to offer the loan as a compromise if they thought you were limited by the avaliablity of cash on hand.
You cannot say if the dealership was making any profit off of you at all. They had probably stretched on your trade cut the new car down to about invoice and in attempt to make the deal just break even offered you a loan.
When that wouldn't fly they considered that after the amount of time they had spent with you and to move one more unit, this is a toyota store you know they are all about moving volume and grabbing more allocation, they decided to sell you the car as a loser.
They might have even been at a some kind of bonus point from toyota that if they sold X number of 4Runners that month they get a something extra either in the form of cash or more allocation.
I'm trying to get my arms around this statement. I dont know diddly about homeland security, but are you saying that the government REQUIRES you to pull a credit report to determine if I'M A TERRORIST?
Yeah, that's true if a buyer pays with cash, but not many of us have that much in our wallet.
We pay with a piece of paper (i.e. a personal check). Since I am offering to exchange my piece of paper for a nice new car, I think it is reasonable to let the dealer do a credit check on us.
Any large cash transaction puts one even more under the radar for those looking for terrorists. Fact of life since 9/11.
And I don't see any ethical issues with chuck1's post here. Making loans is just another way for the dealer to make money. And why not allow them to run your credit with a 780 FICO score? It shows them you're smart with your money, so hopefully they can stop all the BS that gets pulled on people with FICO scores in the low 400's.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
IMHO this is more of a "good manners" issue rather than hard ethical. No court or board would convict them of anything, but it simply leaves bad taste and I would not blame Chuck if he walked away just to make a point.
Some people find it appropriate to ask for more after the deal is done. They just agreed on price and everything else and at the time of paperwork signing they requested floor mats, trailer hitch and 2 years of oil changes thrown in, or they threaten to walk away. Not my style, but I heard some people do it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I bet the middle 150 pages are just random gibberish. The state of CT says we must collect the SS number and put it on such and such forms in order to sell a vehicle to anyone. If we do not complay bad things will happen to us. Not really my job to go look up what particular part of what law they are refering to.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BTW, reportedly in France when you buy a new TV set (you read it right - TV!), your tax data is pulled, as they have a tax to support state-run tv, so the seller gathers your info so they can send you a bill.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
What do you think your dealer will do? Check against a massive list that takes FOREVER to come up or just pull a bureau?
The GOVERNMENT REQUIRES That we determine whether or not you are a TERRORIST! As a Dealer we have clearly determined that pulling a credit file is much faster, more efficient, and has almost NO effect on the consumer. So that is what we are going to do. (If you don't buy a car from us and refuse so be it. The penalties are SEVERE if a dealer does not comply) I love how everything we say is suspect even though we are just talking! LOL
:P
I don't think it is unethical for a dealer to try and get you to pay as much as possible, as long as they don't commmit fraud (such as hiding bogus fees in your paperwork).
If someone walks into a Ford dealer and asks how much for a Focus, and they point to the sticker, and the buyer says OK, is that unethical, since most everyone else is paying 2-3K below sticker?
Also, as to running credit, I agree with Bobst. You aren't giving them negotiable tender. You are giving them a personal check, and a car that you claim to own (the trade). If I was the seller, I certainly would like to have an idea that you were legit, hence running the credit.
besides, offering to finance was a normal thing, considering a large % of buyers are payment buyers.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats a law that predates the Patriot act by many decades and applies to financial institutions only.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats why God created picture ID's.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Which is why the dealership has every reason to verify the funds in the checking account. A credit score doesn't affect whether the check is going to clear.
And again, if the dealership would prefer a cashier's check, that's fine, too. But a credit score doesn't change the validity of a cashier's check, either.
As for this Patriot Act claim, I'd like to see a citation of the law that requires this. The author of theCar Buying Tips website labels this as a scam:
We are getting complaints from car buyers who have their own car financing from a credit union or an online lender, and the car dealer forces them to sign a credit application anyway, falsely claiming "it's required by the Patriot Act". There is no verse in the Patriot Act that I can find requiring you fill out a credit application, or allowing dealers to run credit checks on you when you bring your own car financing. Their bogus claim sounds believable, but armed with verbiage of the law, you can stop them. Here's a link to the Patriot Act: http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/highlights.htm. Ask the car dealer to tell you which exact section of the Patriot Act requires them to make you fill out a credit application when you have your own financing, and collect your Social Security number, and run your credit report. Since they claim it's required, they should be able to show you the verbiage (HINT: They can't). The Patriot Act (H.R. 3162), Section 326 "Verification of identification" requires banks and financial institutions to verify your ID before you open an account. Since you are not opening an account with the dealer and they are not a bank, they don't need you to fill out a credit application or a Patriot Act form.
Unless the dealers can provide the actual text of the law, I'm inclined to believe otherwise. Using "the law" as an excuse smacks of a tactic, nothing more.
A tactic for what? We don't have people sign any form or any credit app anything. We just need the SS# to be put on a couple of state forms. I am pretty sure they are electronic and not even printed out. This is how I handle the SS# issue. I write down the SS# on a bit of paper. I give it to our F&I manager who loads it into a particular screen. Then I take the scrap of paper and shred it. That is the end of it. What the state does with it after that I have no idea. I belive this part of the law was left up to the states to interperut so perhaps some states have set up different procedures for verifying the identity and SS#.
Here's the text of the Patriot Act: www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html I've searched it using various terms, such as "dealer", "vehicle", "automobile", "car", and several others, and found nothing.
As for Section 326 (entitled "VERIFICATION OF IDENTIFICATION"), Car Buying Tips is correct -- this relates to bank accounts, and says nothing about car purchases.
To be fair, perhaps the salespeople have been misled by their management, and are simply repeating what they've been told. But that doesn't prove that it's legal.
Section 365 deals with providing information about cash purchases, but that only includes the use of coins or currency in an amount above $10,000, not checks. And this requirement includes obtaining identification (presumably a driver's license, passport, etc.), not the buyer's credit report.
We just need the SS# to be put on a couple of state forms.
The Patriot Act is a federal law. Perhaps your state requires a SSN for a car sale, I don't know, but that is not the same as claiming that you require to pull the buyer's credit report for a cash sale.
The state requires us to give them the SS# for a car sale and they reference the patriot act in the letter they sent us back last September/October when the law went into effect. From what I remember when I read it that in order to comply with certain sections of the law the SS# must be taken down and given to the state. CT tried to fight this particular portion of the law but eventually lost on appeals and is now forced to comply. Rarely do we have anyone have a problem with us taking their SS# and we probably get more cash buyers for Land Rovers then any other make of vehicle.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In other words, you can't prove it, yet you want to still claim that it's true. Interesting...
How could the dealer verify the funds in our checking account?
The buyer could bring yesterday's statement from the bank, but that would not verify anything. The buyer could have withdrawn all of their money just before coming to the dealer.
I don't think there is any reasonable way for the dealer to verify the funds in our checking account, except driving to the bank with us and checking with a teller.
Actually, he already said its his state that requires it. so what proof are you looking for? The state tells you to do something as a business or you'll be fined/shut down/what have you, then you do it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Even if I have to go in "debt" to do it? Granted, the amount where talking about is not that great. What if it was more?
$2,000.00/$3000.00/or more?
Mind you, I am in a good position to take on debt. A lot of people are not. To pay more profit to a dealer, and then finance it (the extra profit)? Something looks just a little wrong with that picture.
Most accounts are going to have something called "merchant check verification." You phone the bank, provide the account number, provide a dollar amount that you want to verify, and you'll find out whether the account balance is sufficient to pay the amount of the check.
He claimed that his state requires an SSN, not a credit report.
Let's not mix apples and oranges here. The issue raised earlier was whether a credit report was a required form of ID under the Patriot Act, as claimed by DWilliam. So far, it sounds like a false statement.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well you could always give a certified check or a Money Order (although I have seen MO's come back NSF)
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A money order or orders exceeding 10k
A cashiers check or check(S) exceeding 10k
A postal money order(s)
A wad of $100s with a rubber band around it. (If your dealer gets any of these in excess of 10k he has some reporting requirements. Whether they did or do it now I guess depends on the dealership.
Bank checks from an account in your name or traceable to someone with a ss# or tax id or foreign bank do not I believe count for reporting as a cash transaction.
If you go to your bank with a wad of cash totalling 11000 your teller will warn you of the paperwork involved. This goes back years. Probably depositing it over a month will do it but theoretically they are required to report cash deposits from ALL BRANCHES to all accounts you have at the same bank totalling 10k over 30 days.
I recall numerous articles years ago reporting that even by the strict definition, banks, car dealers etc reporting transactions over 10k were so numerous (in a 8 trillion dollar economy of 300 million people) the IRS at least found them of limited use. This may have changed with terrorist searches, but 10k has been the standard for over 18 years and is a constantly shrinking amount by inflation. This will eventually be a deposit of some 15 year old to his account from cutting grass over the summer (if it isn't already).
I would think any 9/11 style new restrictions on cash transaction financing would involve financing of heavy equipment and tractor trailers. As the rules for just car purchsases for Drug money laundering and IRS surveillance were probably for years adequate.
--jjf
If they said "OK, let be X" (did they?) and then after acquiring new info on you, came back and say "Since we think you're well-off to pay Y and you handle your money well, you should finance that Y-X" that is contentious. It was not really illegal or even unethical to say that, as no papers were signed on the price. People back off all the time. But I would say it was just a sign of poor judgment and character - I would likely walk away, just to demostrate I don't like these kind of surprises. But would not call Attorney General or FTD, if you know what I mean.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Jeff Ostroff runs it. I spoke to Jeff a couple of times a few years ago when he was just getting the site off the ground. He put a lot of work into it.....putting up "buy offer" spreadsheets.....leasing spreadsheets, etc. He also had planned (don't know if it ever got off the ground) a "wedding planning" WEB site. Haven't spoken to him in years, though.
He was a nice enough guy. Understand, he makes money off that WEB site by advertising on-line car buying service links. I don't know if Edmunds pays him for advertising, but they are also mentioned on his site. He also makes money by linking to car loan sites.
He focuses more on "unscupulous dealers" and how not to be ripped off. But, he also emphasises being prepared, having your ducks in a row about leasing, financing, what a car costs a dealer, etc which in my opinion, is generally a good thing (as long his info is partnered with correct expectations) He's enamored with Lexus and admites he knows he's paying more for a Lexus to get the extra "perks" that go along with high line model ownership.
So how much of the profit to the dealer is it ethical to finance. Should it be a dollar amount or a percentage? How about the portion of the sale amount that represents a profit to the manufacturer?
Even if I have to go in "debt" to do it? Granted, the amount where talking about is not that great. What if it was more? $2,000.00/$3000.00/or more?
Ok, I'm buying a $90k vehicle, the profit to the dealer is $15k and I'm financing 95% of the amount i.e. part of the 'debt' I'm going into represents a good chunk of the dealer's profit. If I'd negotiated harder the dealer may have relinquished some of his profit, but I'm happy with the deal as it is. Is this an ethically questionable transation?
What if my offer is not accepted? Then my getting a certified check or money order was a waste of time.
A personal check has always worked for me.
The Dealership is within its rights to pull a credit file on anyone it chooses once a buying commitment is reached. Read the Fair Credit Reporting Act! As far as the "Patriot Act" is concerned it is a matter of CONVENIENCE to pull a file rather than dig through the endless names in the database! (That thing takes forever to come up)
It is NOT a LAW that a dealer pull a credit file but is within their rights to refuse sale to you if you decline. (And we have before!)
The bottom line: You are not buying a snickers bar. Dealerships are a HUGE target for FRAUD! and we WILL do what is necessary to protect ourselves. As someone stated earlier in this forum... Salespeople have the advantage because they sell cars everyday. Thieves have the advantage because salespeople are eager for the sale and too often overlook protocol!
The Anonymous Dealer
Customer paid for brand new vehicle with money orders. Staff disobeyed me by accepting said money orders and not not running credit report. (I was off that day and they wanted all that profit the customer offered!)
Bought the car back from the Courts. Money was stolen from relative. Cost to dealership? $8,500.00
One less employee here.
The Anonymous Dealer
That particular comment was (paraphrasing) "Ok so they pull your credit to verify your identity... (as in repeating his individual circumstance, not stating LAW)"
That sounds like what bobst presents and it's certainly what I presented when I bought my last car. No one asked me for a social security number or anything else, as I recall. They took my check, I took my car and we were all happy. :shades:
However, you are quoting Fair Credit or Patriot Acts without any appropriate section passages other than "I say so, so it must be there".
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Nope only if that person is financing and that credit file is needed to secure credit. Any other reason is a gross violation of privacy.
As far as the "Patriot Act" is concerned it is a matter of CONVENIENCE to pull a file rather than dig through the endless names in the database! (That thing takes forever to come up)
My response in one word is "tough". Your convenience or lack thereof is of no concern to me. My privacy is of concern to me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Like what...carpet bombing by B-52's of all known dealerships that sponsor terrorism by not running a credit check?
Let's stop pretending "we're" in the CIA and get back to salesmen stories(i.e beer, dead customers, our days as a green pea being bullied by the salesmanager) All of this TERRORIST stuff is nonsense. :sick:
Unless someone walks into a dealer with cash, the dealer assumes a risk by letting someone drive away with the car on a personal check. There is no way to guarantee the funds will be there. Even if you call the bank directly before the consumer drives away, the possibility of things like outstanding checks and stop payments exist. A hold contract(or double contract)allows you to take the car without the dealer having any risk of not getting paid. What happens is they get you financed, and you sign two sets of paperwork. One is the cash amount(which they will cash in as long as your check clears, the other is a finance deal that they will cash in if your check bounces.
Here's a direct quote from you:
"The patriot act requires we verify you are who you say you are. They had given a moratorium on checking your name against a register of possible terrorists/those known to aid terrorists and I am pretty sure the time is about to run out on it. Equifax has a bureau which will check against the list."
I provided a link to the text of the Patriot Act and cited sections of it, and your claim is false. Pretty simple -- if you can prove it, then tell us where the laws says what you claim. If you can't prove it, then tell your manager and stop making claims to your customers and to posters n this board that aren't accurate.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I previously posted a link to a memo from the Federal Trade Commission that showed that this isn't correct. The dealer can't just pull a credit report "just because", it needs written consent and a reason that relates to financing the purchase through them. Taking a test drive or making a cash purchase are not justifications under federal law to pull a credit report.
Again, these guys want a credit report just to gain an advantage over you, nothing more. Unless you are financing your purchase through the dealership, it is none of their business and you are free to refuse to consent to it.
I actually had one guy who came in and wanted to pay $45000 cash for an FX45. He didn't know anything about the car and didn't want a test drive or to haggle over the price. He didn't want the sale recorded with the state because he said he was shipping the car directly overseas. The whoe thing smelled more than a 10 day old halibut. Luckily, for once, the boss agreed with me and we said thanks but no thanks.