I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year
To the Sales folks, may all your customers be 720+ credit scores and all your deals be home runs.
To the Consumers may all your deals be mini's and trade ins be clean book.
I personaly am very excited about what 2009 is going to bring for Ford Motor Company. I belive we are on the road to being a driving force in the industry and back to the good times.
Had my first BMW in the late '80....a 325i (as opposed to the 325e, which was the "budget" 3er). Nice car. Kept it for several years. But, unlike other's experiences, as the miles piled up, the repair bills became pretty staggering.
Next one was an '06 330i. Again, very nice car. Got the price of way south of it's $40K sticker, all loaded up. But, was it worth it?
Hmmmmm.....that's a good question.
I can say that my current Accord was worth the "mid-$20s" I paid for it. Don't know that the BMW was worth nearly twice that amount, though.
Is the Accord as entertaining to drive as the BMW? No. But, it is entertaining in an entirely different way. It doesn't stand out in any one particular way, but does just about everything well.
Truth told, I bought the Accord for my son...when he graduates college next year. Now, I'm not so sure I'll give it to him. I enjoy driving it that much. Besides, I can see another Hyundai Elantra, or maybe a FIT in his future.
Happy Holidays and Best Wishes to all my friends/hosts here at Edmunds. It's been a very strange year.....2008. And, there's only one way to go from here. That's "UP"!
To the Sales folks, may all your customers be 720+ credit scores and all your deals be home runs.
To the Consumers may all your deals be mini's and trade ins be clean book.
But what if the two should meet? :surprise:
Have a friend who works at the Ford plant here in Louisville, happened to mention to him a few days ago, via e-mail, that the Ford Fusion was on my short list for possible new vehicle purchase in 0-2 years. The other day we're having lunch at a place called Roosters, similar to Hooters but the waitresses are fully clothed. Anyhow, he brings in all these brochures and good reviews about the Fusion, how well it stacks up against the competition and is a class leader. Have to say I was impressed with him going beyond his job description to help Ford increase market share. Does seem the media has given the auto workers a bad rap... extremely one sided.
Me too.....Happy Holidays to all my friends at Edmunds. Your comments and insights are enjoyable to share. Hopefully, there will be some good positive news coming in the New Year. I really do hope the B3 find a way to survive. I grew up always wanting to be able to buy a Lincoln, Caddie or a Deluxe Chrysler and now that I can do it I have other cars on my wish list. I hope Ford keeps going too and I agree Joel, they do have some innovative designs that should work. I am hoping I won't be living in a cardboard box and eating cat food. One year, when things get better we should all get together in Phoenix or something Driver
Wishing you and your families a Merry Christmas, a Happy Holidays, and a prosperous 2009. May every mini be followed be a a deal that gets you the premium monthly parking space!
I enjoy your stories, and thanks for all your insights. They have helped me understand your side of the desk and allowed me to treat every salesman professionally.
Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a For
To all the posters, lurkers, and critics, and prancers To Dixens, and Trolls, the Rudolphs, and Lancers :confuse: To the Hosts, and Hostesses, to salesmen city slickers To the shoppers, and grinders, and all tire kickers To the buyers, and even the thinkers-about-it To the sub-primers too, to naysayers and doubters To the buyers who are liars, to looky loos too To the Finance Managers and, from me straight to you To this Edmunds family, where for each other we care Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Merry Christmas to my "extended" Edmunds family, especially all of you here on the Sales Frontlines. See you next year. Enjoy your time with your families.
I agree with the general sentiment, and wish everyone a safe and happy holiday (Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus, Solstice, or whatever else you may celebrate - celebrate with joy!)
For all those days when I need a good, funny, sad, or just plain interesting story, I have never been disappointed here. Thank you all so much!
And to you a very Merry Christmas, a happy Hanukah, Happy Kwansa, Happy New year, Happy Festivus, Happy Sadie Hawkins day, Happy Make an Oyster Happy day, Happy pack your own parachute day, Happy W. H. Taft Birthday, Happy Feb. 30th and happy peal an M & M day (Did I miss anything?).
To the Consumers may all your deals be mini's and trade ins be clean book.
Looks like my next car purchase will be a few years from now (knock on wood) and my trade in will most likely be worthless (as I plan on driving it into the ground).
I personally am very excited about what 2009 is going to bring for Ford Motor Company.
I think you are right, Ford does stand on good ground for that. I only hope they can bring some of their European models over here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Joel, if Mulally reads this forum, I think a job with corporate may be coming your way! I appreciate your enthusiasm for your product and while I don't know if there's a Ford vehicle in my future (although my 10 y.o. son is enamored of the 'Stang), I think that I may just become an owner of the company!
But, if I was in Nashvegas and wanted me a Ford, I'd most surely come a' callin' to your lil' ol' store! Hey, at the New England Auto Show, Ford gave the best SWAG: A cool, black F-150 hat! Although, I'm not really built, "Ford Tough."
Happy, merry, healthy, prosperous and lucky everything to everyone.
GreenPea: Pats crush Bills, Jets squish Fish and the '08 Pats go on to win the one game that the '07 team couldn't... Stupid non-holding call and helmet catch... Yeah, still just slightly bitter...
Here's hoping for a surprising, blindingly brilliant economic, housing and stock market recovery much sooner than later!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Is the Accord as entertaining to drive as the BMW? No. But, it is entertaining in an entirely different way. It doesn't stand out in any one particular way, but does just about everything well.
It all comes down to your priorities and what you really like. In my case I enjoy the driving experience most any BMW provides, along with their ability to be tracked without much concern for equipment failure- unlike a certain Asian :lemon: that is also in my garage. I have a great dealer, a great indie tech, and I belong to the Best Damn Car Club in the world. I strayed from the Munich path once, and I'm not about to repeat my error...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
if you drive a car to get from a to b, an accord is a very reasonble choice. push a car over the normal driving limits and the bmw is the better selection. even my rwd biased explorer is more fun to drive than a fwd. i do notice that the awd bmw's are pretty popular, too.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Saw an online ad from a Toyota dealer in NH - new 2009 Camry starting at $14990*. (* - plus tax, tag, title). Now, the assumption is that is the lowest model created with a manual transmission, but that is still a great deal of car for the money.
if you drive a car to get from a to b, an accord is a very reasonble choice. push a car over the normal driving limits and the bmw is the better selection. even my rwd biased explorer is more fun to drive than a fwd. i do notice that the awd bmw's are pretty popular, too.
Like I said, it's a matter of preference, not right or wrong. Hondas are great cars. I'd have an S2000 if a coupe version was available.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That is not exactly correct. "Regular working man" at D3 who happens to be in UAW has been receiving benefits and pay that was way in excess of pay for comparable work elsewhere for often even worse quality and less dedication. Union workers would not lift a log blocking the entrance if that was not in their job description. "Regular working man" employed in D3 could get laid off and go into "job bank", which literally meant sitting on a couch, watching TV for 8 hours and being paid full rate - for months. "Regular working man" at D3 got health insurance with no premiums and copays and covered Viagra prescription (did you know that GM was the largest signle payer of Viagra in the country?), wheareas I'm content to pay fifty-hundred bucks a month and pay copays. "Regular working man" at D3 would refuse to learn new technologies or techniques that would allow his company retool the factory more often (which of course would bring more product flexibility).
Finally, "regular working man" refused to listen when scores of people were telling him such situation was unsustainable and has to change if he were to keep his job for long term. No, he'd rather milk benefits as long as they last, prolong them beyond any reason and go on strike if anybody dared to propose even a small reduction, and when the company run out of cash, he sent Gettlefinger to Congress first to beg, then to scare, last to bash and blame everybody else.
No - I would say that "regular working man" at D3 is to blame in about the same extent as his, boss, the bosses boss and Rick Wagoner.
Wow man. richard64 was talking about a couple of salesman at a dealership along with the service guy. What does that have to do with the UAW and Chrysler is beyond me? Does your hatred for the D3 and the UAW extend so deep as to blind you to the fact that yes, salespeople and their service department are suffering and that it has nothing to do with the D3 except for the fact that they sell the product?
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds than to read some of the crap that's posted here.
Saw an online ad from a Toyota dealer in NH - new 2009 Camry starting at $14990*.
Never believe what you see until you find out what the * asterick actually means.
* could mean anything; with down payment with $10000 trade in Lease plan for 3 years slightly damaged (fell off the truck) etc.
Got to give them points for creativity. Might turn some people off when they find they are not driving away in a new Camry for $15,000, less the discount the customer will demand = $14,000.
First step GM should do is fire all there designers. Just pay BMW to hand over the blueprints for these models.
Boy, I hope not.
I can’t remember the last time I rode in a BMW (never drove one) and I’m sure the “driving experience” is as great as everyone says it is. I know that beauty is in the eye of the looker but my first car, a used 56’ Chevy, had more eye appeal than those boxes I’ve seen posted here. I doubt that kind of styling is going to appeal to many of us sophisticated American buyers.
If that kind of styling is going to save the American car builders, I think the 52’ Nash has a chance of a comeback.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
j.....I'm addicted to those "Mecam Auto Auctions" marathon shows on HDNet. There are plenty of cars that cross their auction blocks that I consider a styling tour de force. And most are 35-40 year old designs. They're almost entirely made up of Detroit designs, too.
To my eyes the last great design from Detroit was a mid-90s Buick Riviera. Last great design from BMW was a mid-late 80s 6 series.
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds than to read some of the crap that's posted here.
I am really sorry to see you go oby, I liked reading your comments.
But, I don't think dino said anything that wasn't true, he even cross referenced all his thoughts. It's just one persons opinion, some will agree and some will disagree. Hope you check in again some time. Good luck, and have a Happy New Year.
I am not surprised. You can get base Hyundai Sonata with A/T for $15K or Ford Fusion S with A/T for $15.5. Base Camry is just another appliance that has to compete in this environment.
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping
‘obey’, calm down.
I agree that the union is part of the problem here, a BIG part and the management of these corporations should have seen it coming. Should have learned from the Steel Industry but I’m guessing that they probably knew that. Because of the very lesson that we as a country didn’t learn from that failure, we can’t let the Auto Industry go without a fight.
I, like most of us here, feel for the guys who are going to suffer the collateral damage that was caused by those that put this mess in place.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
To my eyes the last great design from Detroit was a mid-90s Buick Riviera. Last great design from BMW was a mid-late 80s 6 series.
I liked the first generation Aurora, and probably would have bought one if it had been RWD. The E24 6 Series was one of Paul Bracq's designs. I had a 1988 M6:
Yet another BMW I regret selling. Are you beginning to notice a pattern here?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds than to read some of the crap that's posted here.
I am really sorry to see you go oby, I liked reading your comments.
Maybe he's upset because dino pays less for Viagra than he does. :confuse:
He'll be back... no one escapes!
Odd that he would post his resignation late evening Christmas day. I'll try to open a line of communication with him and get to the bottom of this.
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds than to read some of the crap that's posted here.
Well he does say this is his last post on this subject.... Yep.... right there in black and white
phew... I am glad Obyone isn't going anywhere soon.
Keep up the good work guys. Hope everyone has a great New Year!
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds than to read some of the crap that's posted here.
I still think he means he it's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds and he is finished with this entire topic....."sales frontlines". Hope I am wrong.
Oby, how about clarification on what your intentions are?
On another topic...I get two newspapers every day (in Canada). There has been a full page ad in both every day for why GM is thankful we are supporting them and explaining the reasons we should all be behind GM. Full page ads every day in papers across the country has got to cost big bucks...I hope they use the rest of the money wisely because it won't stretch too far at this rate....and I don't know if the ads would convince anyone to buy a GM car.
Another thing is they had a picture of the new Chev Cruze due to come out in 2010 I think. It looks pretty good, 4 cyl turbo which sounds like it has potential. They do have some pretty good product in the pipeline, but the clock is ticking.......
Hi, I have a query regarding the trade-in discussion when buying a used/new car.The first thing the car salesman asks you - Do you have a trade in?. So how do I reply? I personally would like to keep the purchase price and the trade in separate.Do you tell him that you DO have a trade in but want to discuss it separately or do you tell him that the trade in would be dependent on the purchase price? If you tell him there is no trade in,then finalize the price and then suddenly bring up the trade in,,the salesman would say I am a liar. So how do you respond to his initial first question - Do you have a trade in?- --- assuming that I plan to trade in my existing car. Your thoughts?
So how do you respond to his initial first question
"Yes I have a car I will be trading but before we get to that I would like to discuss the selling price. If I think you have offered me a good price then we can discuss the trade."
If I say I have a trade,would he be really flexible on the purchase price?What if he says,based on the trade in vehicle,we can give you a really good deal?What if he really insists on seeing the trade in car before we negotiate the purchasing car`s price? Is it better to go to the dealership in a different car than the one I would be trading? And the consensus is -- I must inform him that I DO have a trade but I want to discuss the price separately ??
I don't really see a reason to keep it separate. If math skills above 5th grade, you know: all mastery of addition, subtraction, multiplication and fractions, why would you be afraid to talk about it at the same time? (X-Y)*Z+T is not that hard as long as all disclosure is kept (i.e. you know ingredients and have a good idea what they actually should be).
Yes, these are two transactions, but not really. They would be if and only if you were ready to buy the new car without trading the old in or if they were ready to take your trade without selling you a new car. I find whole notion of "I can get a better price if I do it separately" totally bogus. The entire reason of trading is buying another car and you will not be able to buy one without trading one in. Moreover, in many states those two transactions combined generate a different tax than when taken separately. Why would you waste all that time getting great "tripple net" price if later you learn your trade is "worth" three grand below lowest book? And now you stand up, walk away and start over in a new place. If done at the same time, you would have known three hours ago and been already there instead of here.
If played right, it can be leveraged for your advantage: you like the car, you buy it today, but only if trade offer is good enough. If not - you walk away and there is no transaction at all. It works as long as you know what both prices should be, keep your head is cool and eyes on the total deal, not just one part.
I'm not in the biz, but when I did have a trade in, I was always up front and told the sales person of that. Obviously, I did my homework to determine what I could expect for both the trade and purchase, subtract them and make an offer. I believe someone else said it best, "The only difference that makes a difference is the difference".
Reasonable purchase price of $25K minus reasonable trade in of $10K, equals "I'll give you my car plus $15K plus state fees for tax tag & title, and I have my own financing at my local credit union".
So say as per your example,,you offer 15k + trade in car +ttl ,,do you say it is your final offer and walk if not agreed to?Or if you want to negotiate that 15k price,,do you try to negotiate to increase the trade in offer or try to reduce the purchase price . So it is better if I negotiate both prices simultaneously and instead focus on the OTD price for the new car which has included the trade in value??
Comments
To the Sales folks, may all your customers be 720+ credit scores and all your deals be home runs.
To the Consumers may all your deals be mini's and trade ins be clean book.
I personaly am very excited about what 2009 is going to bring for Ford Motor Company. I belive we are on the road to being a driving force in the industry and back to the good times.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
I do agree that 2009 will be a much better year for our industry!
Next one was an '06 330i. Again, very nice car. Got the price of way south of it's $40K sticker, all loaded up. But, was it worth it?
Hmmmmm.....that's a good question.
I can say that my current Accord was worth the "mid-$20s" I paid for it. Don't know that the BMW was worth nearly twice that amount, though.
Is the Accord as entertaining to drive as the BMW? No. But, it is entertaining in an entirely different way. It doesn't stand out in any one particular way, but does just about everything well.
Truth told, I bought the Accord for my son...when he graduates college next year. Now, I'm not so sure I'll give it to him. I enjoy driving it that much. Besides, I can see another Hyundai Elantra, or maybe a FIT in his future.
Happy Holidays and Best Wishes to all my friends/hosts here at Edmunds. It's been a very strange year.....2008. And, there's only one way to go from here. That's "UP"!
To the Consumers may all your deals be mini's and trade ins be clean book.
But what if the two should meet? :surprise:
Have a friend who works at the Ford plant here in Louisville, happened to mention to him a few days ago, via e-mail, that the Ford Fusion was on my short list for possible new vehicle purchase in 0-2 years. The other day we're having lunch at a place called Roosters, similar to Hooters but the waitresses are fully clothed. Anyhow, he brings in all these brochures and good reviews about the Fusion, how well it stacks up against the competition and is a class leader. Have to say I was impressed with him going beyond his job description to help Ford increase market share. Does seem the media has given the auto workers a bad rap... extremely one sided.
Anyhow... Merry Christmas to all ! :shades:
Richard
Me too.....Happy Holidays to all my friends at Edmunds. Your comments and insights are enjoyable to share. Hopefully, there will be some good positive news coming in the New Year. I really do hope the B3 find a way to survive. I grew up always wanting to be able to buy a Lincoln, Caddie or a Deluxe Chrysler and now that I can do it I have other cars on my wish list. I hope Ford keeps going too and I agree Joel, they do have some innovative designs that should work. I am hoping I won't be living in a cardboard box and eating cat food. One year, when things get better we should all get together in Phoenix or something
Driver
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I enjoy your stories, and thanks for all your insights. They have helped me understand your side of the desk and allowed me to treat every salesman professionally.
Happy Holidays to all...
Golic
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a For
To all the posters, lurkers, and critics, and prancers
To Dixens, and Trolls, the Rudolphs, and Lancers :confuse:
To the Hosts, and Hostesses, to salesmen city slickers
To the shoppers, and grinders, and all tire kickers
To the buyers, and even the thinkers-about-it
To the sub-primers too, to naysayers and doubters
To the buyers who are liars, to looky loos too
To the Finance Managers and, from me straight to you
To this Edmunds family, where for each other we care
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Merry Christmas to my "extended" Edmunds family, especially all of you here on the Sales Frontlines. See you next year. Enjoy your time with your families.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I agree with the general sentiment, and wish everyone a safe and happy holiday (Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus, Solstice, or whatever else you may celebrate - celebrate with joy!)
For all those days when I need a good, funny, sad, or just plain interesting story, I have never been disappointed here. Thank you all so much!
Message sent.... please reply whne you get it. Thanks buddy!
GP
To the Consumers may all your deals be mini's and trade ins be clean book.
Looks like my next car purchase will be a few years from now (knock on wood) and my trade in will most likely be worthless (as I plan on driving it into the ground).
I personally am very excited about what 2009 is going to bring for Ford Motor Company.
I think you are right, Ford does stand on good ground for that. I only hope they can bring some of their European models over here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But, if I was in Nashvegas and wanted me a Ford, I'd most surely come a' callin' to your lil' ol' store! Hey, at the New England Auto Show, Ford gave the best SWAG: A cool, black F-150 hat! Although, I'm not really built, "Ford Tough."
Happy, merry, healthy, prosperous and lucky everything to everyone.
GreenPea: Pats crush Bills, Jets squish Fish and the '08 Pats go on to win the one game that the '07 team couldn't... Stupid non-holding call and helmet catch... Yeah, still just slightly bitter...
Here's hoping for a surprising, blindingly brilliant economic, housing and stock market recovery much sooner than later!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If I could write it off as a charitable deduction I'd think about it!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
It all comes down to your priorities and what you really like. In my case I enjoy the driving experience most any BMW provides, along with their ability to be tracked without much concern for equipment failure- unlike a certain Asian :lemon: that is also in my garage. I have a great dealer, a great indie tech, and I belong to the Best Damn Car Club in the world. I strayed from the Munich path once, and I'm not about to repeat my error...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"And here's hoping for a prosperous new year. "
Amen , Merry Christmas all.
push a car over the normal driving limits and the bmw is the better selection.
even my rwd biased explorer is more fun to drive than a fwd.
i do notice that the awd bmw's are pretty popular, too.
I'll see what I can do...I am employed at my church part time! :shades:
...or I could just give you the tax deduction value...Snake, help me out here with the tax info!
So, how does a dealer afford that deal?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
push a car over the normal driving limits and the bmw is the better selection.
even my rwd biased explorer is more fun to drive than a fwd.
i do notice that the awd bmw's are pretty popular, too.
Like I said, it's a matter of preference, not right or wrong. Hondas are great cars. I'd have an S2000 if a coupe version was available.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Finally, "regular working man" refused to listen when scores of people were telling him such situation was unsustainable and has to change if he were to keep his job for long term. No, he'd rather milk benefits as long as they last, prolong them beyond any reason and go on strike if anybody dared to propose even a small reduction, and when the company run out of cash, he sent Gettlefinger to Congress first to beg, then to scare, last to bash and blame everybody else.
No - I would say that "regular working man" at D3 is to blame in about the same extent as his, boss, the bosses boss and Rick Wagoner.
Wow man. richard64 was talking about a couple of salesman at a dealership along with the service guy. What does that have to do with the UAW and Chrysler is beyond me? Does your hatred for the D3 and the UAW extend so deep as to blind you to the fact that yes, salespeople and their service department are suffering and that it has nothing to do with the D3 except for the fact that they sell the product?
This is my last post on this topic. It's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds than to read some of the crap that's posted here.
By making you put $5K down.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Never believe what you see until you find out what the * asterick actually means.
* could mean anything;
with down payment
with $10000 trade in
Lease plan for 3 years
slightly damaged (fell off the truck)
etc.
Got to give them points for creativity. Might turn some people off when they find they are not driving away in a new Camry for $15,000, less the discount the customer will demand = $14,000.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Boy, I hope not.
I can’t remember the last time I rode in a BMW (never drove one) and I’m sure the “driving experience” is as great as everyone says it is. I know that beauty is in the eye of the looker but my first car, a used 56’ Chevy, had more eye appeal than those boxes I’ve seen posted here. I doubt that kind of styling is going to appeal to many of us sophisticated American buyers.
If that kind of styling is going to save the American car builders, I think the 52’ Nash has a chance of a comeback.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
To my eyes the last great design from Detroit was a mid-90s Buick Riviera. Last great design from BMW was a mid-late 80s 6 series.
I am really sorry to see you go oby, I liked reading your comments.
But, I don't think dino said anything that wasn't true, he even cross referenced all his thoughts. It's just one persons opinion, some will agree and some will disagree. Hope you check in again some time. Good luck, and have a Happy New Year.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
‘obey’, calm down.
I agree that the union is part of the problem here, a BIG part and the management of these corporations should have seen it coming. Should have learned from the Steel Industry but I’m guessing that they probably knew that. Because of the very lesson that we as a country didn’t learn from that failure, we can’t let the Auto Industry go without a fight.
I, like most of us here, feel for the guys who are going to suffer the collateral damage that was caused by those that put this mess in place.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I liked the first generation Aurora, and probably would have bought one if it had been RWD. The E24 6 Series was one of Paul Bracq's designs. I had a 1988 M6:
Yet another BMW I regret selling. Are you beginning to notice a pattern here?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I am really sorry to see you go oby, I liked reading your comments.
Maybe he's upset because dino pays less for Viagra than he does. :confuse:
He'll be back... no one escapes!
Odd that he would post his resignation late evening Christmas day. I'll try to open a line of communication with him and get to the bottom of this.
This is my last post on this topic.
You could be right Joel, but he does post on other sights too, so I took "this topic" to mean this sight. :confuse:
I feel bad, just like you guys do when you lose an "up".
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Compare to a 1988 Caprice:
1988 Caprice
The M6 looks way nicer than ta 1988 Caprice and is probably worth a lot more today. It looks a lot better than that new Buick behind it too.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Sure, those after market wheels ruined that classic. :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I thought they helped! :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Well he does say this is his last post on this subject.... Yep.... right there in black and white
phew... I am glad Obyone isn't going anywhere soon.
Keep up the good work guys. Hope everyone has a great New Year!
GP
I still think he means he it's much easier helping people with car problems in the answer section of Edmunds and he is finished with this entire topic....."sales frontlines". Hope I am wrong.
Oby, how about clarification on what your intentions are?
On another topic...I get two newspapers every day (in Canada). There has been a full page ad in both every day for why GM is thankful we are supporting them and explaining the reasons we should all be behind GM. Full page ads every day in papers across the country has got to cost big bucks...I hope they use the rest of the money wisely because it won't stretch too far at this rate....and I don't know if the ads would convince anyone to buy a GM car.
Another thing is they had a picture of the new Chev Cruze due to come out in 2010 I think. It looks pretty good, 4 cyl turbo which sounds like it has potential. They do have some pretty good product in the pipeline, but the clock is ticking.......
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I have a query regarding the trade-in discussion when buying a used/new car.The first thing the car salesman asks you - Do you have a trade in?. So how do I reply?
I personally would like to keep the purchase price and the trade in separate.Do you tell him that you DO have a trade in but want to discuss it separately or do you tell him that the trade in would be dependent on the purchase price?
If you tell him there is no trade in,then finalize the price and then suddenly bring up the trade in,,the salesman would say I am a liar.
So how do you respond to his initial first question - Do you have a trade in?- --- assuming that I plan to trade in my existing car.
Your thoughts?
"Yes I have a car I will be trading but before we get to that I would like to discuss the selling price. If I think you have offered me a good price then we can discuss the trade."
Is it better to go to the dealership in a different car than the one I would be trading?
And the consensus is -- I must inform him that I DO have a trade but I want to discuss the price separately ??
Yes, these are two transactions, but not really. They would be if and only if you were ready to buy the new car without trading the old in or if they were ready to take your trade without selling you a new car. I find whole notion of "I can get a better price if I do it separately" totally bogus. The entire reason of trading is buying another car and you will not be able to buy one without trading one in. Moreover, in many states those two transactions combined generate a different tax than when taken separately. Why would you waste all that time getting great "tripple net" price if later you learn your trade is "worth" three grand below lowest book? And now you stand up, walk away and start over in a new place. If done at the same time, you would have known three hours ago and been already there instead of here.
If played right, it can be leveraged for your advantage: you like the car, you buy it today, but only if trade offer is good enough. If not - you walk away and there is no transaction at all. It works as long as you know what both prices should be, keep your head is cool and eyes on the total deal, not just one part.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Reasonable purchase price of $25K minus reasonable trade in of $10K, equals "I'll give you my car plus $15K plus state fees for tax tag & title, and I have my own financing at my local credit union".
So it is better if I negotiate both prices simultaneously and instead focus on the OTD
price for the new car which has included the trade in value??