White Castle has been in Columbus and Cincinnati for at least 40-50 years... Always good for the way home, after a night of bar-hopping (or, so I seem to remember.. :surprise: ). IIRC, St.Louis has White Castle, as well? Or, maybe it's some other midwest city?
Isell.. Washington Court House survived whatever company that was... The Honda plants up the road a couple of hours have spawned a lot of supplier business in all of those little towns within a couple of hours of Marysville.. What will hurt more now, is DHL/Airborne going out of business.. Wash CH easy accessibility to their soon-to-close hub in Wilmington will kill a lot of distribution/logistics businesses..
strange coincidence today, although i will start a couple days back. the other day my wife came home complaining the the windshield washer in her vehicle had stopped working, so i checked the filler tube(you can't see the reservoir ). couldn't see anything so i went the store and bought some washer fluid and filled it up, then filled my car. the explorer was outside, it was cold and my daughter(primary driver) didn't complain, so i let it wait. today i decided to check it, since it was saturday, i was home and it was a nice warm 7 degrees out. with 2 differentials, an engine, transmission, and transfer case, it needs a couple of minutes to warm up before going anywhere. anyways, after topping off the washer fluid, i decided to check the oil. it was down less than a quart, but since i had some 5w20 on the shelf, i decided to put in the partial quart i had left. it didn't flow like molasses, but not like it does the 70 degrees higher temperature either.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Shows how much I know. Here I thought White Castle was a northeastern thing. I went over to their page and I find out that it's a midwestern thing and that I happened to live in one of only two eastern states where they have restaurants.
Learn something new every day.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
“the girls at the office said the oils today are much bettering than in the past”
I could be wrong (not good mechanically) but I think the idea is that if you start driving the oil gets pushed up into the cylinders and coats them faster...than if you let the engine idle and the oil sits at the bottom. It isn't just the viscosity of the oil itself it is that todays engines are made to close tolerances, and the faster the oil coats the surface, the more protection you'll have.
I know us guys have to stick together, but I think the "girls at the office are correct".
Watch out. I feel some physics jargon coming your way with a few sarcastic remarks. :P Wait! I see it now more clearly than ever. It's a large cloud of dust and smoke coming from---yes, that's it---out of Pittsburgh.
too bad you don't have time to delete you post. lol
Actually, I did come in from working all day and read the posts quickly, there were 16 of them. I might have missed the point, but I don't doubt JMs technical knowledge or the fact that todays oils are superior, or that frozen oil doesn't flow too well, but everything I have read says that letting your car warm up isn't necessary, and is actually not good for the engine. These are the points I usually see. Hope there isn't too much smoke on the horizon.
What! Here is what I have found;
IDLING GETS US NOWHERE!
1. Every ten minutes of idling costs at least 1/10th of a liter in fuel - up to 4/10th if your vehicle has an eight cylinder engine.
2. In winter, emissions from an idling engine are more than double the normal level after a cold start.
3. The catalytic converter ( the device that cleans pollutants from your exhaust) does not function at it's peak until it reaches temperatures of at least 400 C. The best way to warm the catalytic converter is to drive the vehicle.
4. Idling is hard on your engine. Because it is not working at peak operating temperatures, fuel combustion is incomplete, leaving residues that contaminate engine oil and foul spark plugs.
5. Restarting a car numerous times has little impact on engine components like the battery and starting motor.
6. If you are going to be parked more that ten seconds, turn off the engine! Ten seconds of idling can use more fuel than turning off the engine and restarting it.
The first thing you need to do in cold weather get out of the habit of letting your car warm up when you start it. Old cars may have needed some warm up time, today's cars don't.
i think the first part of your first sentence is correct. "I could be wrong (not good mechanically)" this part is not correct: "but I think the idea is that if you start driving the oil gets pushed up into the cylinders and coats them faster...than if you let the engine idle and the oil sits at the bottom." the purpose of the oil getting pushed up the the top of the engine is to lubricate the cam(s) and valves, not the cylinders(pistons), although the pistons do need some oil lubrication. tell me there is not a difference in how you car runs in the first few minutes between staying in the garage or leaving it outside after a cold night.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
1. Every ten minutes of idling costs at least 1/10th of a liter in fuel - up to 4/10th if your vehicle has an eight cylinder engine.
The first thing you need to do in cold weather get out of the habit of letting your car warm up when you start it. Old cars may have needed some warm up time, today's cars don't.
I don't know, what do you think?
Well, I don’t think like that.
I just returned to this forum for a night cap (I was with the family all day) and I see THIS. It’s getting late here in the Burgh so I don’t have time to debate every point. I’ve got to get my handsome rest, you know.
About a decade ago I had the occasion to speak with a few automotive engineers and engine designers and this is what I got:
I asked them if cars need warmed up in cold weather like they used to and one of the guys asked me if the laws of physics had changed where I live. :surprise: He said, “cold engines ALWAYS need a warm up period. While the engines and oils are much better today than years ago, they still need warmed up”. So, I said, “what’s all this talk about starting up and driving off”. He said, “that’s the environmentalist side of our industry that’s saying that. We're trying to do our part to encourage people to save energy and since we don’t want to be seen as the bad guys and since the cars today don’t need as much warming up like years ago, we go along with the talk because there isn’t as much engine damage today. Now ask me what I do with my cars and I’ll tell you I warm them up for a few minutes before I drive off and I make sure all the drivers in my house understand this”. I looked at the other guys and I see heads bobbing up and down.
Sometimes you have to be standing at a tall table with a brewsky to get a straight answer.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
one of the guys asked me if the laws of physics had changed
It always amazes me how few people I ever saw in all the physics courses I took (yes, that was my major) yet the world is overflowing with people who will invoke the great laws as if they had intimate knowledge of them. It's a great way to end a debate when you effectively end it with "Who are you to question high authority?"
While automotive designers and engineers are not physicists, they should certainly know better. Yes, you burn more fuel when the engine is under load but more combustion means more heating. Idling consumes less fuel and less combustion means less heating.
Your engine will heat up more quickly when you drive off (with minimal idling) because you're loading the engine. Invocation of "environmentalists" is misdirection and simply reveals the speaker's political inclinations. It is a physics issue and not a political one.
Yes, you burn more fuel when the engine is under load but more combustion means more heating. Idling consumes less fuel and less combustion means less heating.
Tidester, Great explanation, and nicely put so even I can understand it......did you also take English courses. Good to get the issue resolved sensibly, and one of the great things about this sight is that although we go off course a bit at times (not too many car sales these days anyway), you can learn some valuable information! Glad you took those Physics courses!
Seems the woes of the Dealmaker auto group in northern NY just keep on mounting! NY Attorney General is investigating complaints that they didn't pay off the loan balances of customers trade ins: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/media_center/2009/jan/jan16a_09.html
i think the first part of your first sentence is correct. "I could be wrong (not good mechanically)"
Thanks, I needed that! lol
Old cars may have needed some warm up time, today's cars don't.
Maybe some new cars like Explorers have old style engines :confuse: Ha ha -just joking a bit.
But I do appreciate the explanation about how the oil is mostly supposed to get to the cams and valves. I do think it is hard to break old habits especially if it doesn't seem logical. My car gets it's first oil change at 15,000 miles and it goes against all my beliefs......I always thought the more oil changes the longer the engine would last and I changed oil at 5000 miles even when it called for 10000 miles. Well, the dealer won't give me my free oil changes earlier than called for, and I just have to accept the car (service light comes on) and manufacturer know what they are doing. I think it's the same with warm ups....it goes against what we were taught and was logically explained to us for so long, that it is like heresy to change our thinking. I can't find any scientific or expert evidence to prove that it is better to let a car idle to warm up.
Watch out. I feel some physics jargon coming your way with a few sarcastic remarks. Wait! I see it now more clearly than ever. It's a large cloud of dust and smoke coming from---yes, that's it---out of Pittsburgh.
That was one of the funniest posts I have read in a long time. Can't stop laughing!
Your engine will heat up more quickly when you drive off (with minimal idling) because you're loading the engine.
I won’t argue that with more loading comes more heat. Now that’s physics, right? The problem is that too much loading on a cold engine is where the problem comes in. If everyone knew to start out slowly and not drive off like they were driving a warm engine, damage would be avoided but with how well cars run today when cold, not too many people think twice about the problem. A few minutes to warm up the oil when an engine is started up at temperatures below plus 20 F will help engine longevity.
Where I’m working now, I take the PA Turnpike for about 20 miles. I only have about 2 miles before I get on it after work. With the temperature below 15 F the last few days when I left work, by the time I got to the pike the engine had just gotten to its normal operating temperature and that was after I allowed the car to warm up for those precious 2 minutes. If I had started out immediately, the car would not have been completely warmed up and when you have to accelerate to get into traffic and then maintain turnpike speed, that is too much to ask of an engine that isn’t up to its normal temperature.
Invocation of "environmentalists" is misdirection and simply reveals the speaker's political inclinations.
I had long thought that the auto industry was doing its part with endorsing the saving of energy and when this guy made his comment, my thoughts were confirmed at least from him. I’m all for doing what I can to save energy (just this past summer I had a very efficient furnace and AC installed), but like most everything, issues can get out of hand because things are taken out of context.
It is a physics issue and not a political one.
That’s the part that some people get carried away with.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
This is actually about buying a car. There is a consumer show in Canada called Marketplace and it is very well done. Well, they went to a used car dealership in Vancouver and tried out a few cars, had hidden cameras and a police forensic car specialist. The salesman -owner of the dealership printed off the Carfax report and stated these cars were never in an accident. The police expert showed where the two front doors had different colors of red on them, and the original labels on the trunk were painted over. One car that had a perfect Carfax report needed $2100 worth of work to get it aligned properly...it was unsafe to drive and was about an inch out of alignment. Using a Carfax competitor to check these cars they found that these cars had been in serious accidents. When they confronted the smiley guy at Carfax he said, "Our information is only as good as the garages or police who send us reports". There are lawsuits against Carfax at this time. The lesson was the Carfax reports are almost useless, still take a used car to a mechanic before buying.
"...Using a Carfax competitior...they found these cars had been in serious accidents..."
Do you know the names of those competitors? Might be nice to use two or more services to get a complete picture of a car.
I'm sure Carfax picks up some things that their competitors miss as well, none of them is perfect.
I think I posted my story of how I purchased a car from my father. When it was only a month or two old he was T-boned and had $8000 worth of damage. When I bought the car 7 years later there was no record of the accident on Carfax.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Do you know the names of those competitors? Might be nice to use two or more services to get a complete picture of a car.
For some reason they didn't mention the competitor by name. They reporters went to Carfax's head office, which looked really nice, and they talked about how they put together 100s of thousands of bits of information every day...but they didn't record the damage on these cars for over 2 years. It looks like they do a bit of a check just from information that they request, but it is more of a selling tool for the car dealer, and probably 98% of the customers believe it is good useful information.
You can actually watch the whole half hour show at: Marketplace It is really worthwhile and very interesting!
I asked them if cars need warmed up in cold weather like they used to
I asked my mechanic that same question. His response was that engines, then and now, only really need to have the oil flowing throughout the engine. He said depending on the weather that could be anywhere from 30 seconds to two minutes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Carfax on their main page states "CARFAX does not have the complete history of every vehicle." They also state on another page "Before you buy a used car, we recommend that you get a CARFAX Report, take a test drive, and have the vehicle inspected by a qualified mechanic."
I would suspect that anyone suing Carfax for missing information is going to have a tough time winning.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
He said depending on the weather that could be anywhere from 30 seconds to two minutes.
There goes that "2 minute thing again". :surprise:
I'm thinking that 30 second thing is during warm weather. By the time you get your car out of the garage/driveway/parking spot/etc. in warm weather you've satisfied that criteria. :surprise: :surprise:
Back to physics.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Oh yeh, forgot, let's get back to installing wide screen TVs again.
And the physics about the flow of oil.
Good clip about that Carfax stuff. Like we've all learned over the years...nothing is perfect. It never hurts to use empirical data, like a trusted mechanic in these cases.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
isell....I have been to Seattle. Great city. A little dismal weatherwise, but nice.
I think that there are many companies out there that have openings. And, they're testing the "break point" of what people will, or will not do, when it comes to taking a position. I've never been one to gravitate towards companies who want to do things "on the cheap"! Frugally is fine. Cheap? NO!
I've got my little contract business. Not really rolling in the dough. But, it's paying the bills.
White Castle.....I have to be WAY OVERSERVED to imbibe in those. It's been decades since I've eaten any of their cuisine.
Columbus isn't a bad place. Last summer wasn't so bad. We're now in the depths of the winter months. But, usually by the end of March things become relatively pleasant, again. It didn't start getting really cold here until last week.
Central OH is feeling the pinch with DHL leaving. But, as kyfdx stated, Honda and their suppliers hopefully can pick up some of that slack.
Back to cars (and only something kyfdx will relate to). After wasting 1 1/2 days getting my heater fixed, I found there was a recall out on the Tahoe to fix the windshield washer heater. Since I was already in "fix my car" mode, upon returning home, I took it in for the recall (why the remote dealership didn't do this when the heater needed a fix, is beyond me).
A local and long time radio sports talk show host called me yesterday (Fuhrman). I don't know him. Never met him. Have only heard him on the radio.
He's now the customer service representative for the Chevy dealership where I have my service work done. He called just to make sure my service was done right, and that I was satisfied.
Do you know the names of those competitors? Might be nice to use two or more services to get a complete picture of a car.
Autocheck.com is a competitor to carfax and is part of Experian, the credit bureau. It might be wise to buy a report from both to cover your bases. What I think might be most informative would be a report from the insurance industry but I don't think that information is publicly available. If a car has had significant monetary damage, an insurance claim would most likely be associated with the VIN. You would think the insurance industry would see the potential profit to be made but there must be a bigger reason why they keep it secret.
Carfax and autocheck might not find the accident data but I am guessing the insurance companies would have something to say about most accidents.
Carfax and autocheck might not find the accident data but I am guessing the insurance companies would have something to say about most accidents.
Damn, I always thought (because that is what I heard and it made sense to me) that insurance companies provided input for those types of reports. Now I can't believe anything I hear.
I guess I'm going to have to become a full time investigator to get my own facts or stayed tuned to this site for them. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I have always thought CARFAX was useless, it does mean a car has a clean bill of health just cause it says so, and they are to vauge when there is damage. I have had it report collision damage on cars before that had $400 worth of paint work done.
It has always amazed me that customers will take the time to go to a mechanic but won't take 5 minutes to swing by a body shop and ask someone to run there hand down the side of a car. A good body man can run his hand down the car and tell you if it has had paint work, they can pop the hood and trunk and tell you in 30 seconds if there has been any collision damage.
Carfax on their main page states "CARFAX does not have the complete history of every vehicle." They also state on another page "Before you buy a used car, we recommend that you get a CARFAX Report, take a test drive, and have the vehicle inspected by a qualified mechanic
Obviously, they do this to cover their own butt. But, what it really means is the report is just about useless, and is only used by the car dealer to their advantage. They don't even have to say anything that could be illegal...they just say, "Here's the Carfax report and you know how good they are", and most consumers who aren't as knowledgeable as the people that come to Edmunds will think a Carfax report is 100% accurate.
Like you said, hard to sue, but there is some fraud going on, so it is possible something could be done.
I am so glad that I am enrolled at Edmunds University. I used to think that Carfax meant something. We learn each and every day. I'll be wiser in the future.
If someone depends totally on CarFax, that would be silly, but there is a lot of useful information..
You can find out if the car was leased, owned or even used as a rental. If the CarFax shows it suffered accident damage, that would be a useful bit of info, as well.. I've looked at CarFax reports that show a car has been through the auction three times in five months, with one of those auctions in Texas.. That's info you can't get anywhere else.
The report is there to disqualify used cars from consideration, not to give them a clean bill of health.. Tools only work when used properly.. If you use a hammer to open your window, that doesn't make the hammer a bad tool.
The report is there to disqualify used cars from consideration, not to give them a clean bill of health.. Tools only work when used properly.
I agree 100%. We all use various tools when buying. You phone and ask questions, if you don't like the answers you walk. If you like the answers you go and look at the car. If you don't like what you see, you walk... The CarFax report is just another worthwhile step but is not the only step.
Carfax is like anything else...not perfect...but it is useful. Buying a used car you have to do all your homework.
I wonder how good some of the Certified labels are? I have bought a couple of certified Lexuses or Lexi, whichever the case, and have had very good luck with them. Go Cardinals !!
"The report is there to disqualify used cars from consideration, not to give them a clean bill of health." :confuse:
You should be in Congress. That's how THEY talk. :P If Carfax gives no clean bills of health, then all used cars reported by them are disqualified for consideration. In high school geometry, we were taught that this is called "deductive reasoning".
"The report is there to disqualify used cars from consideration, not to give them a clean bill of health."
And another thing is that's not what they claim. They claim they will tell you the true history of the car (providing they can obtain all the facts from garages, insurance companies, and whoever else they claim hands over information). Also, I believe you pay $30 for this useless information. :sick:
For an English teacher, you've done a pretty good job of missing the point..
Bad stuff in CarFax = Run away
Good stuff in CarFax = Continue to do your due diligence (Test drive, mechanic inspection, etc.)
Not sure how that makes CarFax bad... Is that info you'd rather be without? A lot of dealers on some of the major "Car for Sale" websites offer a free link to the CarFax report for each unit. Most other dealers will provide the report for free, if you just ask. I can't imagine not taking that step on a major purchase like a used car.
If you can't get it for free, you can get info on an unlimited number of cars for one month, for $25. For the great majority of people, that's as long as it takes to shop for a car (not our members, of course...).
"...if you use a hammer to open your window, that doesn't make the hammer a bad tool..."
True. But if the owner of the hardware store sold you the hammer as the perfect tool for opening windows would you trust him the next time you had to buy a tool?
I think what every one is saying is that Carfax may be over selling itself as to the completeness of it's information. Personally, I have been suspisous ever since Isell posted pictures of two total wreaks that had clean Carfax reports.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Yeah, someone banged it with a shopping cart at Costco. The owner paid his 100.00 deductable and had his insurance company pay the other 200.00 to have the ding fixed.
I agree, I wouldn't buy a used car without seeing a Car Fax or Auto Check but they really can scare people away for good cars.
Conversly, bad accidents and other serious problems can fail to show up.
If you want to see a few CarFax horror stories go to; carfax inaccuracies This is one of many complaints:
Akisha of Trenton NJ (07/06/05) I purchased a 2003 Nissan Altima 7/13/04 with a clean carfax report. After having problems with the vehicle i found out it had been in 2 previous accidents before I purchased it and one of the accidents at 135mph. the car has been completely rebuilt. Due to the fact of an inaccurate carfax report I am out of money and stuck with a car that is slowly breaking down on me.
I believe a true report could weed out cars that you don't want to buy (if the report said the car had been in a major accident for example). But these reports are so far off they are of almost no value and could actually be harmful to the unskilled buyer.
"For an English teacher, you have done a pretty good job of missing the point."
For a visiting host, you have done a pretty good job of making an insulting remark. :mad: I understood your point of view. I was simply making my own point.
IMHO, I feel that Carfax is a bit misleading. As to those links from car dealers, you get just enough information to entice you to pay the $30 to find out "the rest of the story". Example: "This vehicle has four reports." Soooooooo?
Also, the Carfax report is vague. Examples: Total Loss Check: No total loss reported to Carfax (Could there still be a total loss report out there?) Structural/Frame Damage Check: No issues reported (Could there still be damage?) Odometer Rollback Check: No issues indicated (Could there still be issues?) There are six of these items on a report.
In the Title Section, they offer to buy your car if a DMV reported a problem that is not in the Carfax Report. That appears to be their one guarantee.
The final paragraph states: "Carfax depends on its sources for the accuracy and reliability of its information. Therefore, no responsibility is assumed by Carfax or its agents for errors or omissions in this report. Carfax further expressly disclaims all warranties, expressed or implied, including any implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose."
Finally, "Use this report as one important tool, along with a vehicle inspection and test drive, to make a better decision about your next used car."
For $30 a pop, I could run you a report based on my "sources", but I'm afraid that the report wouldn't be worth much. This is the feeling that I get when I read a Carfax Report. Of course, I'm just a trainer of teachers, not an automobile dealer or an Edmunds Visiting Host.
BTW, just how long will you be "visiting"? :shades:
Due to the fact of an inaccurate carfax report I am out of money and stuck with a car that is slowly breaking down on me
Rewrote story:
Due to the fact that I was too lazy/ignorant/naive to do my proper due diligence, I am out of money and stuck with a car that is slowly breaking down on me
This person has nobody to blame but themselves. Caveat emptor.
driver... i was worried a bit that you would take my post as a bit harsh. anyways, it been a tiring day. lots of snow removal. the good part is that by removing the snow from my neighbor's driveway/sidewalk, i earned a goody bag with a couple of beers in it plus a nice godiva chocolate gift basket. and yes the explorer engine is what i would call semi old tech. it is a sohc 2 valve design which first went into production in 1992, although the first year in an explorer was 2002, which is what i have. old tech is like the ohv 5.0 in my mustang and new tech is the sohc 3 valve, like many mercedes engines. as far as the carfax thing goes, i traded in a car last year and the dealer i traded it in at posted a carfax report that went along with the online ad for the car. repairs i had done at an independent didn't show up. everything i had done at the dealer was detailed, but some of it was couched in language that didn't exactly represent i thought was actually done as a repair.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Comments
Isell.. Washington Court House survived whatever company that was... The Honda plants up the road a couple of hours have spawned a lot of supplier business in all of those little towns within a couple of hours of Marysville.. What will hurt more now, is DHL/Airborne going out of business.. Wash CH easy accessibility to their soon-to-close hub in Wilmington will kill a lot of distribution/logistics businesses..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
We have them here in Chicago.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
the other day my wife came home complaining the the windshield washer in her vehicle had stopped working, so i checked the filler tube(you can't see the reservoir ). couldn't see anything so i went the store and bought some washer fluid and filled it up, then filled my car.
the explorer was outside, it was cold and my daughter(primary driver) didn't complain, so i let it wait.
today i decided to check it, since it was saturday, i was home and it was a nice warm 7 degrees out.
with 2 differentials, an engine, transmission, and transfer case, it needs a couple of minutes to warm up before going anywhere.
anyways, after topping off the washer fluid, i decided to check the oil.
it was down less than a quart, but since i had some 5w20 on the shelf,
i decided to put in the partial quart i had left.
it didn't flow like molasses, but not like it does the 70 degrees higher temperature either.
Learn something new every day.
I could be wrong (not good mechanically) but I think the idea is that if you start driving the oil gets pushed up into the cylinders and coats them faster...than if you let the engine idle and the oil sits at the bottom. It isn't just the viscosity of the oil itself it is that todays engines are made to close tolerances, and the faster the oil coats the surface, the more protection you'll have.
I know us guys have to stick together, but I think the "girls at the office are correct".
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
At the time almost everyone int own was supported either directly or indirectly by the tool company I worked for.
Such is the fate of many small towns.
Richard
Actually, I did come in from working all day and read the posts quickly, there were 16 of them. I might have missed the point, but I don't doubt JMs technical knowledge or the fact that todays oils are superior, or that frozen oil doesn't flow too well, but everything I have read says that letting your car warm up isn't necessary, and is actually not good for the engine. These are the points I usually see. Hope there isn't too much smoke on the horizon.
What! Here is what I have found;
IDLING GETS US NOWHERE!
1. Every ten minutes of idling costs at least 1/10th of a liter in fuel - up to 4/10th if your vehicle has an eight cylinder engine.
2. In winter, emissions from an idling engine are more than double the normal level after a cold start.
3. The catalytic converter ( the device that cleans pollutants from your exhaust) does not function at it's peak until it reaches temperatures of at least 400 C. The best way to warm the catalytic converter is to drive the vehicle.
4. Idling is hard on your engine. Because it is not working at peak operating temperatures, fuel combustion is incomplete, leaving residues that contaminate engine oil and foul spark plugs.
5. Restarting a car numerous times has little impact on engine components like the battery and starting motor.
6. If you are going to be parked more that ten seconds, turn off the engine! Ten seconds of idling can use more fuel than turning off the engine and restarting it.
The first thing you need to do in cold weather get out of the habit of letting your car warm up when you start it. Old cars may have needed some warm up time, today's cars don't.
I don't know, what do you think?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"I could be wrong (not good mechanically)"
this part is not correct:
"but I think the idea is that if you start driving the oil gets pushed up into the cylinders and coats them faster...than if you let the engine idle and the oil sits at the bottom."
the purpose of the oil getting pushed up the the top of the engine is to lubricate the cam(s) and valves, not the cylinders(pistons), although the pistons do need some oil lubrication.
tell me there is not a difference in how you car runs in the first few minutes between staying in the garage or leaving it outside after a cold night.
The first thing you need to do in cold weather get out of the habit of letting your car warm up when you start it. Old cars may have needed some warm up time, today's cars don't.
I don't know, what do you think?
Well, I don’t think like that.
I just returned to this forum for a night cap (I was with the family all day) and I see THIS. It’s getting late here in the Burgh so I don’t have time to debate every point. I’ve got to get my handsome rest, you know.
About a decade ago I had the occasion to speak with a few automotive engineers and engine designers and this is what I got:
I asked them if cars need warmed up in cold weather like they used to and one of the guys asked me if the laws of physics had changed where I live. :surprise: He said, “cold engines ALWAYS need a warm up period. While the engines and oils are much better today than years ago, they still need warmed up”. So, I said, “what’s all this talk about starting up and driving off”. He said, “that’s the environmentalist side of our industry that’s saying that. We're trying to do our part to encourage people to save energy and since we don’t want to be seen as the bad guys and since the cars today don’t need as much warming up like years ago, we go along with the talk because there isn’t as much engine damage today. Now ask me what I do with my cars and I’ll tell you I warm them up for a few minutes before I drive off and I make sure all the drivers in my house understand this”. I looked at the other guys and I see heads bobbing up and down.
Sometimes you have to be standing at a tall table with a brewsky to get a straight answer.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It always amazes me how few people I ever saw in all the physics courses I took (yes, that was my major) yet the world is overflowing with people who will invoke the great laws as if they had intimate knowledge of them. It's a great way to end a debate when you effectively end it with "Who are you to question high authority?"
While automotive designers and engineers are not physicists, they should certainly know better. Yes, you burn more fuel when the engine is under load but more combustion means more heating. Idling consumes less fuel and less combustion means less heating.
Your engine will heat up more quickly when you drive off (with minimal idling) because you're loading the engine. Invocation of "environmentalists" is misdirection and simply reveals the speaker's political inclinations. It is a physics issue and not a political one.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Tidester, Great explanation, and nicely put so even I can understand it......did you also take English courses. Good to get the issue resolved sensibly, and one of the great things about this sight is that although we go off course a bit at times (not too many car sales these days anyway), you can learn some valuable information!
Glad you took those Physics courses!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
keep on mounting!
NY Attorney General is investigating complaints that they didn't pay
off the loan balances of customers trade ins:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/media_center/2009/jan/jan16a_09.html
"I could be wrong (not good mechanically)"
Thanks, I needed that! lol
Old cars may have needed some warm up time, today's cars don't.
Maybe some new cars like Explorers have old style engines :confuse: Ha ha -just joking a bit.
But I do appreciate the explanation about how the oil is mostly supposed to get to the cams and valves. I do think it is hard to break old habits especially if it doesn't seem logical. My car gets it's first oil change at 15,000 miles and it goes against all my beliefs......I always thought the more oil changes the longer the engine would last and I changed oil at 5000 miles even when it called for 10000 miles.
Well, the dealer won't give me my free oil changes earlier than called for, and I just have to accept the car (service light comes on) and manufacturer know what they are doing. I think it's the same with warm ups....it goes against what we were taught and was logically explained to us for so long, that it is like heresy to change our thinking. I can't find any scientific or expert evidence to prove that it is better to let a car idle to warm up.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That was one of the funniest posts I have read in a long time. Can't stop laughing!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I won’t argue that with more loading comes more heat. Now that’s physics, right?
Where I’m working now, I take the PA Turnpike for about 20 miles. I only have about 2 miles before I get on it after work. With the temperature below 15 F the last few days when I left work, by the time I got to the pike the engine had just gotten to its normal operating temperature and that was after I allowed the car to warm up for those precious 2 minutes. If I had started out immediately, the car would not have been completely warmed up and when you have to accelerate to get into traffic and then maintain turnpike speed, that is too much to ask of an engine that isn’t up to its normal temperature.
Invocation of "environmentalists" is misdirection and simply reveals the speaker's political inclinations.
I had long thought that the auto industry was doing its part with endorsing the saving of energy and when this guy made his comment, my thoughts were confirmed at least from him. I’m all for doing what I can to save energy (just this past summer I had a very efficient furnace and AC installed), but like most everything, issues can get out of hand because things are taken out of context.
It is a physics issue and not a political one.
That’s the part that some people get carried away with.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Do you know the names of those competitors? Might be nice to use two or more services to get a complete picture of a car.
I'm sure Carfax picks up some things that their competitors miss as well, none of them is perfect.
I think I posted my story of how I purchased a car from my father. When it was only a month or two old he was T-boned and had $8000 worth of damage. When I bought the car 7 years later there was no record of the accident on Carfax.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
For some reason they didn't mention the competitor by name. They reporters went to Carfax's head office, which looked really nice, and they talked about how they put together 100s of thousands of bits of information every day...but they didn't record the damage on these cars for over 2 years. It looks like they do a bit of a check just from information that they request, but it is more of a selling tool for the car dealer, and probably 98% of the customers believe it is good useful information.
You can actually watch the whole half hour show at:
Marketplace
It is really worthwhile and very interesting!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I guess you know what that means...you'll have to turn in your badge and leave this site, NOW. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yes we know, we truly know. :P
I asked them if cars need warmed up in cold weather like they used to
I asked my mechanic that same question. His response was that engines, then and now, only really need to have the oil flowing throughout the engine. He said depending on the weather that could be anywhere from 30 seconds to two minutes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I guess you know what that means...you'll have to turn in your badge and leave this site, NOW.
Oh yeh, forgot, let's get back to installing wide screen TVs again.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I would suspect that anyone suing Carfax for missing information is going to have a tough time winning.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There goes that "2 minute thing again". :surprise:
I'm thinking that 30 second thing is during warm weather. By the time you get your car out of the garage/driveway/parking spot/etc. in warm weather you've satisfied that criteria. :surprise: :surprise:
Back to physics.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
And the physics about the flow of oil.
Good clip about that Carfax stuff. Like we've all learned over the years...nothing is perfect. It never hurts to use empirical data, like a trusted mechanic in these cases.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think that there are many companies out there that have openings. And, they're testing the "break point" of what people will, or will not do, when it comes to taking a position. I've never been one to gravitate towards companies who want to do things "on the cheap"! Frugally is fine. Cheap? NO!
I've got my little contract business. Not really rolling in the dough. But, it's paying the bills.
White Castle.....I have to be WAY OVERSERVED to imbibe in those. It's been decades since I've eaten any of their cuisine.
Columbus isn't a bad place. Last summer wasn't so bad. We're now in the depths of the winter months. But, usually by the end of March things become relatively pleasant, again. It didn't start getting really cold here until last week.
Central OH is feeling the pinch with DHL leaving. But, as kyfdx stated, Honda and their suppliers hopefully can pick up some of that slack.
Back to cars (and only something kyfdx will relate to). After wasting 1 1/2 days getting my heater fixed, I found there was a recall out on the Tahoe to fix the windshield washer heater. Since I was already in "fix my car" mode, upon returning home, I took it in for the recall (why the remote dealership didn't do this when the heater needed a fix, is beyond me).
A local and long time radio sports talk show host called me yesterday (Fuhrman). I don't know him. Never met him. Have only heard him on the radio.
He's now the customer service representative for the Chevy dealership where I have my service work done. He called just to make sure my service was done right, and that I was satisfied.
Jobs are tough right now.
Autocheck.com is a competitor to carfax and is part of Experian, the credit bureau. It might be wise to buy a report from both to cover your bases. What I think might be most informative would be a report from the insurance industry but I don't think that information is publicly available. If a car has had significant monetary damage, an insurance claim would most likely be associated with the VIN. You would think the insurance industry would see the potential profit to be made but there must be a bigger reason why they keep it secret.
Carfax and autocheck might not find the accident data but I am guessing the insurance companies would have something to say about most accidents.
Damn, I always thought (because that is what I heard and it made sense to me) that insurance companies provided input for those types of reports. Now I can't believe anything I hear.
I guess I'm going to have to become a full time investigator to get my own facts or stayed tuned to this site for them. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That site's sidebar gave the name of four car data companies. Thanks.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
It has always amazed me that customers will take the time to go to a mechanic but won't take 5 minutes to swing by a body shop and ask someone to run there hand down the side of a car. A good body man can run his hand down the car and tell you if it has had paint work, they can pop the hood and trunk and tell you in 30 seconds if there has been any collision damage.
Obviously, they do this to cover their own butt. But, what it really means is the report is just about useless, and is only used by the car dealer to their advantage. They don't even have to say anything that could be illegal...they just say, "Here's the Carfax report and you know how good they are", and most consumers who aren't as knowledgeable as the people that come to Edmunds will think a Carfax report is 100% accurate.
Like you said, hard to sue, but there is some fraud going on, so it is possible something could be done.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Richard
If someone depends totally on CarFax, that would be silly, but there is a lot of useful information..
You can find out if the car was leased, owned or even used as a rental. If the CarFax shows it suffered accident damage, that would be a useful bit of info, as well.. I've looked at CarFax reports that show a car has been through the auction three times in five months, with one of those auctions in Texas.. That's info you can't get anywhere else.
The report is there to disqualify used cars from consideration, not to give them a clean bill of health.. Tools only work when used properly.. If you use a hammer to open your window, that doesn't make the hammer a bad tool.
regards,
kyfdx
visiting host
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree 100%. We all use various tools when buying. You phone and ask questions, if you don't like the answers you walk. If you like the answers you go and look at the car. If you don't like what you see, you walk... The CarFax report is just another worthwhile step but is not the only step.
I wonder how good some of the Certified labels are? I have bought a couple of certified Lexuses or Lexi, whichever the case, and have had very good luck with them. Go Cardinals !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You are being kind.
We do have the rainy season and we have August.
Summers are glorious...usually but it can rain in July. No humidity no miserable hot days and best of all VERY few bugs.
No White Castles, and no Waffle Houses.
You should be in Congress. That's how THEY talk. :P If Carfax gives no clean bills of health, then all used cars reported by them are disqualified for consideration. In high school geometry, we were taught that this is called "deductive reasoning".
Richard
And another thing is that's not what they claim. They claim they will tell you the true history of the car (providing they can obtain all the facts from garages, insurance companies, and whoever else they claim hands over information). Also, I believe you pay $30 for this useless information. :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Bad stuff in CarFax = Run away
Good stuff in CarFax = Continue to do your due diligence (Test drive, mechanic inspection, etc.)
Not sure how that makes CarFax bad... Is that info you'd rather be without? A lot of dealers on some of the major "Car for Sale" websites offer a free link to the CarFax report for each unit. Most other dealers will provide the report for free, if you just ask. I can't imagine not taking that step on a major purchase like a used car.
If you can't get it for free, you can get info on an unlimited number of cars for one month, for $25. For the great majority of people, that's as long as it takes to shop for a car (not our members, of course...).
Shewwwww...
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
True. But if the owner of the hardware store sold you the hammer as the perfect tool for opening windows would you trust him the next time you had to buy a tool?
I think what every one is saying is that Carfax may be over selling itself as to the completeness of it's information. Personally, I have been suspisous ever since Isell posted pictures of two total wreaks that had clean Carfax reports.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I wouldn't say that, what if the report does show that there was a serious accident with the car. Would you say the report is meaningless then?
and most consumers who aren't as knowledgeable as the people that come to Edmunds will think a Carfax report is 100% accurate.
Since Carfax is not making that claim, as a matter of fact the state the opposite, one cannot blame Carfax for the consumer thinking that.
but there is some fraud going on
Any fraud in this case is not coming from Carfax.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't think that Carfax is doing that, They specifically state that they don't have the complete history of every vehicle.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
FORMER FLEET OR LEASED HISTORY!!
Like this is something bad?
ACCIDENT REPORTED !!
Yeah, someone banged it with a shopping cart at Costco. The owner paid his 100.00 deductable and had his insurance company pay the other 200.00 to have the ding fixed.
I agree, I wouldn't buy a used car without seeing a Car Fax or Auto Check but they really can scare people away for good cars.
Conversly, bad accidents and other serious problems can fail to show up.
carfax inaccuracies
This is one of many complaints:
Akisha of Trenton NJ (07/06/05)
I purchased a 2003 Nissan Altima 7/13/04 with a clean carfax report. After having problems with the vehicle i found out it had been in 2 previous accidents before I purchased it and one of the accidents at 135mph. the car has been completely rebuilt. Due to the fact of an inaccurate carfax report I am out of money and stuck with a car that is slowly breaking down on me.
I believe a true report could weed out cars that you don't want to buy (if the report said the car had been in a major accident for example). But these reports are so far off they are of almost no value and could actually be harmful to the unskilled buyer.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
For a visiting host, you have done a pretty good job of making an insulting remark. :mad: I understood your point of view. I was simply making my own point.
IMHO, I feel that Carfax is a bit misleading. As to those links from car dealers, you get just enough information to entice you to pay the $30 to find out "the rest of the story". Example: "This vehicle has four reports." Soooooooo?
Also, the Carfax report is vague. Examples: Total Loss Check: No total loss reported to Carfax (Could there still be a total loss report out there?) Structural/Frame Damage Check: No issues reported (Could there still be damage?) Odometer Rollback Check: No issues indicated (Could there still be issues?) There are six of these items on a report.
In the Title Section, they offer to buy your car if a DMV reported a problem that is not in the Carfax Report. That appears to be their one guarantee.
The final paragraph states: "Carfax depends on its sources for the accuracy and reliability of its information. Therefore, no responsibility is assumed by Carfax or its agents for errors or omissions in this report. Carfax further expressly disclaims all warranties, expressed or implied, including any implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose."
Finally, "Use this report as one important tool, along with a vehicle inspection and test drive, to make a better decision about your next used car."
For $30 a pop, I could run you a report based on my "sources", but I'm afraid that the report wouldn't be worth much. This is the feeling that I get when I read a Carfax Report. Of course, I'm just a trainer of teachers, not an automobile dealer or an Edmunds Visiting Host.
BTW, just how long will you be "visiting"? :shades:
Richard
"I believe a true report could weed out cars that you don't want to buy (if the report said the car had been in a major accident for example)."
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Rewrote story:
Due to the fact that I was too lazy/ignorant/naive to do my proper due diligence, I am out of money and stuck with a car that is slowly breaking down on me
This person has nobody to blame but themselves. Caveat emptor.
anyways, it been a tiring day. lots of snow removal.
the good part is that by removing the snow from my neighbor's driveway/sidewalk, i earned a goody bag with a couple of beers in it plus a nice godiva chocolate gift basket.
and yes the explorer engine is what i would call semi old tech.
it is a sohc 2 valve design which first went into production in 1992, although the first year in an explorer was 2002, which is what i have.
old tech is like the ohv 5.0 in my mustang and new tech is the sohc 3 valve, like many mercedes engines.
as far as the carfax thing goes, i traded in a car last year and the dealer i traded it in at posted a carfax report that went along with the online ad for the car.
repairs i had done at an independent didn't show up. everything i had done at the dealer was detailed, but some of it was couched in language that didn't exactly represent i thought was actually done as a repair.