q....yeah....I'm beginning to think that there should be no money going to the dealership for anything....even mileage, if this thing gets unwound.
You guys are right, it's not like there aren't plenty of Chevy dealerships around where they can make a deal. From what I can gather, the incentives were better a few weeks ago, when my sister got the car, than they are now.
So, even if the deal's unwound, she's going to end up paying more.
...The couple of times a mistake like this occured the customer never even found out we just ate the differance and went on with business. Better to take the lower profit deal then to piss off a customer.
Rover,
Thanks for responding. I knew if anybody would try to explain this it would be you.
Maybe we just don't have any GM guys out there (could this really be the case).
It's obvious that you work for a respectable dealership from what you said above.
Thanks again,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's ultimately up to your honest sister and her husband. But, I think they've given the dealership every opportunity, and enough time, to provide a legitimate explanation and documentation. The dealership has come up with conflicting stories and provided nothing to document their claims. I'm sure given enough time the dealership can fabricate something in the way of documentation. But, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee graphic... tell your sister to let the dealership know if they can't come up with legitimate proof by sundown... they can start pounding that salt.
I'm not familiar with GM deals either...but if it was a Ford deal it would be simple to document all the prices and incentives...The ford dealer system has something called a VINCENT that documents ever possible incentive then after some input it gives the exact incentives for that specific car and customer based on zip code, how they are paying and any special non-public offers.
so if the dealer or customer made a mistake it should be cleared up within minutes. If they won't prove the numbers unwind the deal and go to another dealer.
I think I would mail a certified letter (for tracking purposes) to the dealership's owner, and general manager stating that I wanted to see a written, itemized description of the transaction highlighting exactly where the descrepancy occurred (if any). I would also state that I would like written proof from GM to be included with their statement that would back up the dealership's claim that a particular rebate/promotion for the amount of said descrepancy did not pertain to me. I would conclude the letter by stating that unless this information is provided to me, in the manner I had requested, I was considering the deal to be final, and any further correspondance from them, other than what I have requested, would be considered harrassment.
At this point, I would no longer call the dealership and speak with anyone - it would all be done through written mediums, so at least I would have it documented that I tried to resolve the issue in case they do decide to "pop" the car from me/my kids out of my driveway, or a parking lot somewhere.
That's been the most frustrating part of this whole transaction for my sister. My bro-in-law has worked for GM for over 20 years (he got a job there right out of HS). He's allowed my family to buy numerous cars with his employee discount. Never has this been an issue before. You get the authorization number, see what the discount is (always well below invoice and you get all the current incentives, too), and it's a done deal....no muss, no fuss.
Then again, none of us have used this particular dealership before, either (no, it's not Bill Heard).
Dealership personnel seem to be nice people from the conversations I've had with them. They seem to genuinely believe there's been some sort of mistake. Dealership's owner won't call, but his [non-permissible content removed]'t says the people who were responsible for the mistake have been "dealt with" (whatever that means). Yet, they can't show my sister documentation where/how the mistake was made. None of us want to "cheat" anyone. If the mistake was legit, all we're asking is for them to show it to us.
Personally, I think they need to just need to drop this. No matter if the mistake is genuine or not, none of us are happy with the way this thing has played out. If they are flaunting GMS rules, then they don't deserve anything else from my sister. If there's a legit mistake, then they need to pony up and eat it for no other reason than grief they've put my sister and her family through.
Graphicguy, Are you in se ohio did I hear you say that you were on the river? I am in Athens and it sounds like you are near pomeroy or middleport. If this is so then I might be able to offer insight into the players.
Walt....that's what I told my sister. Tell the dealership, if she had known there was a $1K swing in the price, she would have gone in a different direction.
I don't see them unwinding this deal. They don't seem like the kind of dealership that's going to force the issue (although, they certainly are being persistent about getting the extra money). But, who knows?
Craig....I can't imagine any of these dealerships liking these employee deals. But, given the state of GM these days, I'd have to believe anytime they get a chance to move iron, they would take it. I do believe GM does offer the dealership some sort of compensation for employee deals. Don't know what that compensation is, though.
IIRC, when Saab had the employee price deals, their was an amount on the invoice for "Dealer reserve"... The Saab dealer told me that was what GM rebated to them for basically selling the vehicle at cost.. It was around 4-5% of MSRP, I think... (not the holdback)
Hi Graphic. Your sister’s situation is pretty interesting. I’m sorry you and she are caught up in it.
It’s hard to know whether the dealer has a leg to stand on without reading the paperwork and knowing local law. The contract might have some slippery clause that the price was dependent on actual receipt of certain anticipated rebates.
Emotionally, I side with the posters who would tell the dealer to pound salt. Imagine a buyer completing a deal at night for a used car and returning the next day for a partial refund because the sunlight revealed some imperfections in the paint. The dealer could do what he wanted, but would be under no obligation to adjust the price, and probably wouldn’t.
The lease adds a complication. Lots of problems can be avoided by the philosophy to “buy quality; pay cash; take delivery”.
You reported that a new deal would be more expensive with current rebates, even if this one were unwound. Practically speaking, I would consider the $500 settlement offer as a last resort if the dealer persists. If the adjustment to the paperwork was satisfactory and a confrontation could be avoided, I might do it. The car would not be repossessed in the middle of the night or while parked at the mall. For $500 you buy closure and peace of mind.
There have been lots of interesting responses and suggestions. The outcome depends on the dealer's ethics and your sister’s style of responding to conflict. Good luck!
My sister calls me last night in tears. The GM of the dealership called her all blustery stating he wished his sales guy never sold my sister a car. He went on to say he hated GMS deals (Craig, you hit the nail on the head). He then said he felt like my sister and bro-in-law "threw him under the bus" on the deal.
Well, up until that point, I had told my sister that if the dealership provided proof that there was a $1,000 error, she should take their offer of "splitting the difference" (based on the grief the dealership had given her, that's all they get) and send them $500.
She agreed.....that is, until the phone call.
I was incensed by the fact that this guy brought my sister to tears. I called the guy back. I'm paraphrasing here, but the guy said he'd never do business with my sister, her husband or me....ever again. I told him he could count on that. I also told him exactly what I thought of his treatment of his customers....how unprofessional he and his staff had been. And, how I'd warn anyone I knew, who was even thinking about buying a Chevy, to stay away from his dealership. I didn't speak softly, either. I also told him that if the deal was so distasteful, to pick-up the car and to be sure to have a cashier's check for the fees to accompany whoever came to pick up the car. I went on to say that my sister was ready to accept his $500 offer based upon him providing proof the deal was "off" by $1,000, but that offer was now off the table. I told him not to call my sister, my bro-in-law or me....ever again.
He said he didn't want the car back in his inventory and that there was nothing he could do about the deal since he already sent the paperwork into GMAC (who is the lease holder).
I told him there was nothing more to talk about, then.
About an hour later, the GM of the dealership has the gall to call me back, stating we were both "hot headed" during our last conversation. He said as a peace offering, he would pay for my sister's first oil change because the dealership still wanted my sister's service business. He also reminded me that a survey from GM would be coming my sister's way and that if there was anything that kept her from rating the dealership anything other than completely satisfied, he wanted to know about it so he could fix it. WHAT?
Using my own term, I told the guy to "go pound salt" and hung up on him.
I told my sister once the survey comes, to rate the dealership "completely unsatisfied".
I'll assume the paperwork has gone through, as the dealership's GM stated. But, I don't know that to be fact. I don't know how the paperwork will go through, if there was really a $1,000 error (which, we still have no proof of). My sister's paperwork is all in order, as best I can tell, however. We'll see shortly since her temp tags expire in a couple of weeks.
Thanks for everyone's suggestions. And, thanks for letting me vent.
Is this dealer in the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky area? Part of a large group of dealers? I'd like to know the name since I'm familar with Cinci and now live near Dayton (Ohio not Kentucky). I have an email listed in my profile if you don't want to post it.
If the car's in Ohio..., does Ohio law allow a repo for the recision of an alleged problem? Earlier discussion about Tennessee and the Heard group had indicated there it was; someone recently posted two states that are very prodealer and TN was one.
It's hard to believe all this happened over $1000. I can't quite understand the dealership's position, why instead of haranguing your sister, didn't they simply provide the justification for the extra $1000 they you were asking for? I did wonder whether they had been tardy in submitting paperwork and perhaps the rules of one of the rebates had changed and they found themselves $1000 short because of that.
In any case I'm glad it now appears to be 'resolved'.
I told the guy to "go pound salt" and hung up on him.
You didn't? Tell me you didn't actually tell that guy to go pound salt! AHH MAN... that has got to be the best ending to a sales story I have ever heard. If your story was the Super Bowl it would have been a last second hail mary touchdown pass for the victory.
My hats off to your side of this unfortunate situation. You guys handled it in a calm, practical and ethical manner. Another black eye for the dealership profession though.
I cannot believe the GM called back and asked for a completely satisfied rating for the dealership survey. That guy either has a lot of #@*S... or is a complete idiot. I bet turning down that "free" oil change was hard to do. They probably would have filled the crankcase up with that salt they had to pound.
grandtotal....I really can't figure out what went wrong. I suspect there was some maufacturer to dealer cash that they may have missed the deadline to submit the paperwork on. All an assumption, but I do know that some of that cash expired at the end of Sept (when my sister made the deal). That said, I know dealers back date paperwork to get manufacturer money.
Or, the dealership is flagrantly breaking GM's employee discount rules and trying to get more money than the GMS plan allows.
Either way, it's not a good situation.
No dealer is required to honor GM's employee purchase program. All the dealership had to do was say they wouldn't sell the car under the GMS plan. It's not like Malibus are hot commodities. My sister would have gone to another dealership who would have honored the GMS plan to buy the car.
jipster....my very last words to the GM of the dealership were exactly...."go pound salt".
thanks for entertaining the board for a while, graphicguy.
i like the fact that we can enjoy stories from both salespeople and buyers here.
by the way, i think you did EXACTLY what I would have done. A free oil change is a total joke of a "peace offering," and in no way worth ever setting foot in there again.
Actually ... I may have gone down there in person if my sister called me crying. My reasons are 2-fold. 1 is that I'd expect to be hung up on. And 2 is that my wife and son shouldn't be subjected to what would come out of my mouth.
By the way, don't you get Ford discounts, too? Do your relatives work at any other dealerships? Do the discounts work for distant long-lost cousins from NJ?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
He also reminded me that a survey from GM would be coming my sister's way and that if there was anything that kept her from rating the dealership anything other than completely satisfied, he wanted to know about it so he could fix it.
That is really comical.
It takes a lot of balls chutzpah to say something like this after all that has transpired.
I guess those 'Satisfaction Surveys' really are that important, although I would have thought they were worth more than a free oil change.
Oil changes must be worth a lot too.
Glad to hear it's over?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
q....the dealership is in IN.....about a 2 hour drive from me. I thought about driving there, but am too lazy. If push came to shove much longer, I probably would have made the drive for a "face-to-face" with the GM of the dealership, though. Still may do just that if my sister doesn't get the paperwork for the permanent tags.
I told my bro-in-law he should have been leading the fight. But, he really hates confrontations. Plus, I'm known as "the car guy" in the family. My sister knows all too well that I don't back away from confrontation, too. My bro-in-law would probably have taken the dealership's word as gospel an coughed up the extra $1,000. He's a trusting soul.....sometimes to his detriment.
I've got another sister who does work for Ford. That looks like that's about to come to an end, though.
Through my company, I get supplier discounts on any Nissan or Toyota brands, too.
I don't know that Honda offers supplier discounts, but my company is a vendor to their Marysville OH manufacturing plant. Maybe isellhondas can shed some light on whether Honda offers supplier discounts.
j.....I kept thinking to myself...."you've got to be kidding me" when the GM wanted my sister to give the dealership a good survey.
Glad it's over? Yeah. No one likes to be bullied and no one likes to have their integrity questioned. I felt like this guy was doing both....to my sister. And, then....he tried to do the same to me.
Funny, from his voice on the phone, I got a mental picture of the GM as a fat, bald guy wearing sansabelt pants of a color not found in nature.
I'm going to speculate that the incentive for a purcahse was different from the lease...we see that alot with our mfg's. The lease incentives are usually lower because of the residual/rate enhancements but it would have been so easy to clarify.....It sounds to me like you gave them every opportunity to clear things up and they didn't do anything to help themselves..They look like idiots to me....You handled it the right way from my standpoint. make sure to tell all your friends about the experience!!
I know we've talked about this ad nauseum, but this is the exact reason I only buy cars from people I've done business with before and are people I trust.
"He also reminded me that a survey from GM would be coming my sister's way and that if there was anything that kept her from rating the dealership anything other than completely satisfied, he wanted to know about it so he could fix it. WHAT?"
I think I would have responded that there is a $1000 "positive survey" fee that your sister forgot to deduct from the price of the car when she made her offer, but since it was her mistake, you would split the difference and give him good scores for $500. And tell him that you had dealt with your sister accordingly for not having deducted it originally....then finished with GO POUND SALT!!! - and hung up.
I agree with 1racefan on this. A local dealer I have dealt with for years carries Hyundai. I needed a nice little commuter in quick-time and checked on rebates, incentives, etc.
Picked out a nice little Elantra (for you sales guys, I am the customer you dream about. Walked on the lot, knew exactly what I wanted, pointed at the blue one and said "drive out price, please.")The sales guy brings out the deal and it is less than what I had figured by about $500. I am an honest guy and ask about it. Turns out there was an unadvertised incentive to the dealer for units with certain content, which this car had. He could have pocketed the $500 and I would never have known, but instead he sweetened the deal, still made some money, and I have told lots of folks who to see if they want a Hyundai.
Seems like well spent money on the dealers part, eh?
1racefan....good comeback. Why can't I ever think of those "witicisms" when I need them.
audia8q.....the alleged missing money could have been the difference between a lease and purchase. I don't know if the lease was subsidized by GM or not. It wouldn't surprise me if it was. GMS made no stipulation in their discount/pricing schedule that the "cash back" amounts were different for purchases vs leases. There were some finance variables that could be combined with lower cash back amounts, but I didn't look too closely at those since it was a lease. I combed the GMS paperwork, at least a half dozen times, to see if there was any mention of different amounts for lease or purchase. There were none.
But even if that was the case, all the dealership had to do was show us proof that the incentives were different on the lease than they were for purchase, and my sister would have been satisfied....and ponied up the cash. The dealership had numerous requests by both my sister and me, over several days, to give us the "proof" that what they said was indeed true. They didn't, wouldn't or couldn't.
I wasn't in the F&I office when my sister consumated the deal. I did ask her if the F&I person quizzed her about lease vs purchase. My sister said they took the discount/rebates right off the GMS authorization paperwork my sister brought with her. Then, they proceeded to fill out the lease forms based on those numbers.
My sister told me that after she had picked out the Malibu she wanted and test drove it, she told the sales person she was a GMS customer and already knew what the price would be. He told her there was nothing left for him to do except get the car ready for delivery. He then dumped her off in the F&I office. That was it. My sister said the only thing the F&I person tried to do was push an extended warranty. Since the lease was only for 27 months, she declined that.
I haven't come out and said it but I work at the world HQ of a manufacturer.
A customer walks into a dealership with a brochure thats three or four years old that just a single fold paper that has a picture of a truck that outlines all the structural features of the truck. Customer wants to buy several trucks opens the brochure and says "I want them in this color".
Dealer then calls up our printer and asks what color is the truck in the brochure. :sick:
I just love our dealers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd like to hear what the other sales guys out there would do with this situation.
One of my best customers sent me their son in law who wanted to buy a new Fit. He's a nice guy, but he wants to lower his payments which are currently at $360/mos. He has $2,700 worth of negative equity and wants to be under $300/mos with no money out of pocket.
I told him the only way to do that in his situation without putting any money down, would be on an 84 month purchase. Quite frankly, I think this is the dumbest decision he could possibly make and I won't sell him the car in that manner.
Let's do the math real quick. He has 3 years left on his loan. He wants to lower his payment by $60/mos. 36x60 = $2,160. In order to lower his payments, we need to go 84 months. So we extend his term, he's completely buried in the new vehicle, and he's paying a retarded amount of interest. All under the impression of saving money. I won't do it.
On a sidenote, he tells me that he's going to shop around and see if someone can get him a better deal at the dealership that his family used to buy cars at. I encourage him to do so, but then he continues and tells me a story about how 3 years ago they were able to give him $7k for a '89 Nissan Sentra with 250k.
:confuse:
So now I'm just sad because it's obvious that I'm dealing with a complete moron. But I don't say anything and just tell him to keep the car.
This happens at least once a week to several of us. I always just tell the prospective buyer to Option A: Just 'stay the course'. Option B: Try to sell it outright. Typically there is a $2000-$4000 difference between tradein value and retail value. With such a new vehicle selling it outright shouldn't be that hard. That makes up most or all of the NE he has. Option C: Keep it but refinance it with another lender for a longer period. If the $60/mo is so burdensome there is no reason to get out of a nearly brand new vehicle. Option Look at the entire budget. Where can $60/mo be found other than the car loan?
Thanks, Spyder. I think those are good suggestions. One of the sales guys here said, "If that's what he wants to do, then let him do it." I'll use an extreme analogy, but if someone says he wants to walk in front of a train, do you let him do it just because he wants to?
I think it's crappy salesmanship just to laydown for your customer, especially a referral, and let me get themselves deeper into debt.
The whole situation is just bugging me to death. Welcome to October!
However, I would have sold that guy in a heartbeat. And I would have told him to try and save $1k or so over the next couple years and buy an extended warranty that would cover him for the rest of the time of the loan.
Sure it's dumb to get an 84-month loan, but at least it's a Honda, it's a simple car, and it'll likely last with little trouble.
Everybody writes 4-year loans on 3-year-old cars, and nobody has ever explained to me why a new-car loan at 84 months is any worse.
I'm up there with the "see if he can refinance his current loan out longer" and "sell the car private party" options.
The other alternative, of course, is "Don't buy a Fit", which is proving to be popular and priced higher than other cars - but it's probably not the best option for you, the sales guy.
Frankly, if he got $7k on his older trade-in, *I'll* go to that dealership. I should be able to sell my current car, and get enough back to buy a Miata!
Never mind amortization... the question is, why is everyone so dead set against an 84-month loan, but has no problem at all with a 3-or-4-year used-car loan that stretches the term out just as far?
Buying used is not the answer on popular cars; check out the following graphic: http://www.msu.edu/~steine13/cars.html. My apologies to those that have already seen it.
When I was making $14k/year, I paid cash for my cars... many cars, in part cuz they kept breaking. I'm not so sure it wouldn't have been cheaper in the long run to suck it up and buy a new Civic or Tacoma... and finance it for 5 years... back in '92, that would have seemed an awfully long term.
The GM of the dealership called her all blustery...Well, up until that point, I had told my sister that if the dealership provided proof that there was a $1,000 error, she should take their offer of "splitting the difference".
You can’t make peace when the other guy wants to make war.
He said he didn't want the car back in his inventory and that there was nothing he could do about the deal since he already sent the paperwork into GMAC (who is the lease holder).
It should all be over then. You won, and rightly so.
Mathias....the rate of depreciation on a used car is less than a new car, IN GENERAL. I understand what you're saying, though. People take out 4 year loans on used cars all the time....in essence, it means that particular car has been financed for the first 72 or 84 mos of it's existence....just by more than one person.
Personally, I feel if the only way you can afford the car is to finance it for 72-84 mos, then you really can't afford the car. That's just my personal bias, though. Heck, I'm still trying to wrap my arms around why someone would finance a new car for 60 mos.
Regarding the guy who wants to lower his payments by buying a FIT, I don't think it's a salesperson's job to be a financial counselor. If someone wants an 84 mo loan, hey go for it. It's their money.
driveright....I'm comfortable with the way things turned out for my sister. Most of the dealerships I've done business with are honest and customer focused. Every once in a great while, I run into one that is less than reputable. I don't mind going to battle if I feel I've been wronged (or someone in my family has been wronged).
So he wants to roll negative equity into a new car to try to reduce the payment amount? Not a good ideal especially if the old car is runing trouble free.
Looking at the figures it looks like he might have rolled negative equity from another car into this one. All he seems to be doing in burying himself deeper.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
the question is, why is everyone so dead set against an 84-month loan, but has no problem at all with a 3-or-4-year used-car loan that stretches the term out just as far?
Its not so much of how long you streach out the loan in relationship to the age of the car. But rather how fast you can pay down the loan (or create equity). If you finance the entire amount (including TTL) it takes almost a year to pay off just the TTL on a 84 month loan. On that 84 month loan it will take forever to get any equity on the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Mathias....the rate of depreciation on a used car is less than a new car, IN GENERAL.
No it isn't. Did you look at the Accord depreciation curve? If you think that's bad, try a Tacaoma.
A lot of cars and trucks look like that, even domestic ones, for instance the Chevy Silverado... at least the more pedestrian versions. First-year depreciation is steep only for cars like American luxury vehicles (Cadillac STS, anyone?) and for cars that are preceived as troublesome... which, obviously, aren't the answer either.
The market is pretty well calibrated to all these things, and stuff costs what it costs... like the housing market, there are very few real "deals" out there.
As far as the argument "then you can't afford the car", well, most people need to drive "something", and you won't save money in the long run if you drive beaters as opposed to driving a high-quality economy car into the ground.
84-month loans for a $34k 4x4 is a different story, I'm with you there.
Sorry for coming off as preachy, I just think the conventional wisdom has it all wrong here. Don't forget that "depreciation" is always calculated off of MSRP, not off street price... even a Taurus isn't so bad once you realize you can buy them new for $14...
Do you guys look at a customer just for what you can make off them on that immediate deal, or do you look to satisfy him or her so repeat business and many referrals will follow. I know the repeat/referral is just "hope" while sticking someone for msrp based on his ignorance is sure fire money right now, but is there even a glint of forethought? With the great advent of the internet the playing field has been made a little more level , but not much. I think dealers still have the upper hand and will continue to until the car salesman start making NBA salaries with no commission(that'll never happen). I just wrapped up a car buying year that entailed buying/leasing 3 cars, vowing never to buy a honda again, switching to toyota(I never thought it'd happen.) I'm tired of it and don't want to do it for many years. I know I'm just one consumer and one potentially sold accord doesn't matter when thousands are sold in a month's time. However one consumer can affect many other consumer thruogh word of mouth....but it doesn't really matter ....you'll get your money and that's that...at least I'll end up with a reliable Toyota.
"Looking at the figures it looks like he might have rolled negative equity from another car into this one. All he seems to be doing in burying himself deeper."
Snake--I'm not sure if you or some of the others in this forum saw the King of Cars episode where a couple was trying to unload a well-used Chevy Blazer with substantial neg. equity and buy 2 replacement cars while paying less per month. I don't remember what the salesman found for the woman, but even after a prolonged search that netted the cheapest car (a Saturn Ion) on the lot the salesman and F & I guy couldn't find a financing "solution" that worked. Duh!
The salesman wasted the better part of a day trying to knit together a deal and the customers left disgruntled by the outcome. I can't understand why the salesman just didn't nicely, but forcefully, tell the couple it was impossible to do what they wanted until they either paid off the Blazer or had some equity built into the car. I suspect they had years to go before reaching either outcome.
I've seen about 5 episodes of the series and it's a rare customer who has any down payment and most owe at least something on their previous car, a car that usually looks perfectly functional for the near term.
In my small town I continue to see many, many 2-3 year old cars being advertised by the various dealership with 72, 78 and 84 month terms. Do any of these buyers really buy and hold a car through the 11th year or are they merely payment jumpers?
Comments
You guys are right, it's not like there aren't plenty of Chevy dealerships around where they can make a deal. From what I can gather, the incentives were better a few weeks ago, when my sister got the car, than they are now.
So, even if the deal's unwound, she's going to end up paying more.
Rover,
Thanks for responding. I knew if anybody would try to explain this it would be you.
Maybe we just don't have any GM guys out there (could this really be the case).
It's obvious that you work for a respectable dealership from what you said above.
Thanks again,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
so if the dealer or customer made a mistake it should be cleared up within minutes. If they won't prove the numbers unwind the deal and go to another dealer.
graph,
Your right about that but it's a shame your sister has had to go through all of this aggravation with this dealer.
It looks like there is more than one dealer that operates like our old buddy Bill Heard.
Please don't tell us this IS an Old Bill store.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
At this point, I would no longer call the dealership and speak with anyone - it would all be done through written mediums, so at least I would have it documented that I tried to resolve the issue in case they do decide to "pop" the car from me/my kids out of my driveway, or a parking lot somewhere.
Then again, none of us have used this particular dealership before, either (no, it's not Bill Heard).
Dealership personnel seem to be nice people from the conversations I've had with them. They seem to genuinely believe there's been some sort of mistake. Dealership's owner won't call, but his [non-permissible content removed]'t says the people who were responsible for the mistake have been "dealt with" (whatever that means). Yet, they can't show my sister documentation where/how the mistake was made. None of us want to "cheat" anyone. If the mistake was legit, all we're asking is for them to show it to us.
Personally, I think they need to just need to drop this. No matter if the mistake is genuine or not, none of us are happy with the way this thing has played out. If they are flaunting GMS rules, then they don't deserve anything else from my sister. If there's a legit mistake, then they need to pony up and eat it for no other reason than grief they've put my sister and her family through.
They should suck it up and move on.
Hopefully they have learned a lesson and will be more careful next time.
At worst? "If I had known that the car was $1K more, I wouldn't have bought it... you can have it back, once you reimburse my upfront payment".
If she had paid cash, and had the title.... then, different story..
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I don't see them unwinding this deal. They don't seem like the kind of dealership that's going to force the issue (although, they certainly are being persistent about getting the extra money). But, who knows?
Craig....I can't imagine any of these dealerships liking these employee deals. But, given the state of GM these days, I'd have to believe anytime they get a chance to move iron, they would take it. I do believe GM does offer the dealership some sort of compensation for employee deals. Don't know what that compensation is, though.
Worth doing, I think..
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It’s hard to know whether the dealer has a leg to stand on without reading the paperwork and knowing local law. The contract might have some slippery clause that the price was dependent on actual receipt of certain anticipated rebates.
Emotionally, I side with the posters who would tell the dealer to pound salt. Imagine a buyer completing a deal at night for a used car and returning the next day for a partial refund because the sunlight revealed some imperfections in the paint. The dealer could do what he wanted, but would be under no obligation to adjust the price, and probably wouldn’t.
The lease adds a complication. Lots of problems can be avoided by the philosophy to “buy quality; pay cash; take delivery”.
You reported that a new deal would be more expensive with current rebates, even if this one were unwound. Practically speaking, I would consider the $500 settlement offer as a last resort if the dealer persists. If the adjustment to the paperwork was satisfactory and a confrontation could be avoided, I might do it. The car would not be repossessed in the middle of the night or while parked at the mall. For $500 you buy closure and peace of mind.
There have been lots of interesting responses and suggestions. The outcome depends on the dealer's ethics and your sister’s style of responding to conflict. Good luck!
My sister calls me last night in tears. The GM of the dealership called her all blustery stating he wished his sales guy never sold my sister a car. He went on to say he hated GMS deals (Craig, you hit the nail on the head). He then said he felt like my sister and bro-in-law "threw him under the bus" on the deal.
Well, up until that point, I had told my sister that if the dealership provided proof that there was a $1,000 error, she should take their offer of "splitting the difference" (based on the grief the dealership had given her, that's all they get) and send them $500.
She agreed.....that is, until the phone call.
I was incensed by the fact that this guy brought my sister to tears. I called the guy back. I'm paraphrasing here, but the guy said he'd never do business with my sister, her husband or me....ever again. I told him he could count on that. I also told him exactly what I thought of his treatment of his customers....how unprofessional he and his staff had been. And, how I'd warn anyone I knew, who was even thinking about buying a Chevy, to stay away from his dealership. I didn't speak softly, either. I also told him that if the deal was so distasteful, to pick-up the car and to be sure to have a cashier's check for the fees to accompany whoever came to pick up the car. I went on to say that my sister was ready to accept his $500 offer based upon him providing proof the deal was "off" by $1,000, but that offer was now off the table. I told him not to call my sister, my bro-in-law or me....ever again.
He said he didn't want the car back in his inventory and that there was nothing he could do about the deal since he already sent the paperwork into GMAC (who is the lease holder).
I told him there was nothing more to talk about, then.
About an hour later, the GM of the dealership has the gall to call me back, stating we were both "hot headed" during our last conversation. He said as a peace offering, he would pay for my sister's first oil change because the dealership still wanted my sister's service business. He also reminded me that a survey from GM would be coming my sister's way and that if there was anything that kept her from rating the dealership anything other than completely satisfied, he wanted to know about it so he could fix it. WHAT?
Using my own term, I told the guy to "go pound salt" and hung up on him.
I told my sister once the survey comes, to rate the dealership "completely unsatisfied".
I'll assume the paperwork has gone through, as the dealership's GM stated. But, I don't know that to be fact. I don't know how the paperwork will go through, if there was really a $1,000 error (which, we still have no proof of). My sister's paperwork is all in order, as best I can tell, however. We'll see shortly since her temp tags expire in a couple of weeks.
Thanks for everyone's suggestions. And, thanks for letting me vent.
If the car's in Ohio..., does Ohio law allow a repo for the recision of an alleged problem? Earlier discussion about Tennessee and the Heard group had indicated there it was; someone recently posted two states that are very prodealer and TN was one.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In any case I'm glad it now appears to be 'resolved'.
You didn't? Tell me you didn't actually tell that guy to go pound salt! AHH MAN... that has got to be the best ending to a sales story I have ever heard. If your story was the Super Bowl it would have been a last second hail mary touchdown pass for the victory.
My hats off to your side of this unfortunate situation. You guys handled it in a calm, practical and ethical manner. Another black eye for the dealership profession though.
I cannot believe the GM called back and asked for a completely satisfied rating for the dealership survey. That guy either has a lot of #@*S... or is a complete idiot.
I bet turning down that "free" oil change was hard to do. They probably would have filled the crankcase up with that salt they had to pound.
Or, the dealership is flagrantly breaking GM's employee discount rules and trying to get more money than the GMS plan allows.
Either way, it's not a good situation.
No dealer is required to honor GM's employee purchase program. All the dealership had to do was say they wouldn't sell the car under the GMS plan. It's not like Malibus are hot commodities. My sister would have gone to another dealership who would have honored the GMS plan to buy the car.
jipster....my very last words to the GM of the dealership were exactly...."go pound salt".
i like the fact that we can enjoy stories from both salespeople and buyers here.
by the way, i think you did EXACTLY what I would have done. A free oil change is a total joke of a "peace offering," and in no way worth ever setting foot in there again.
Actually ... I may have gone down there in person if my sister called me crying. My reasons are 2-fold. 1 is that I'd expect to be hung up on. And 2 is that my wife and son shouldn't be subjected to what would come out of my mouth.
By the way, don't you get Ford discounts, too? Do your relatives work at any other dealerships? Do the discounts work for distant long-lost cousins from NJ?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That is really comical.
It takes a lot of
ballschutzpah to say something like this after all that has transpired.I guess those 'Satisfaction Surveys' really are that important, although I would have thought they were worth more than a free oil change.
Oil changes must be worth a lot too.
Glad to hear it's over?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I told my bro-in-law he should have been leading the fight. But, he really hates confrontations. Plus, I'm known as "the car guy" in the family. My sister knows all too well that I don't back away from confrontation, too. My bro-in-law would probably have taken the dealership's word as gospel an coughed up the extra $1,000. He's a trusting soul.....sometimes to his detriment.
I've got another sister who does work for Ford. That looks like that's about to come to an end, though.
Through my company, I get supplier discounts on any Nissan or Toyota brands, too.
I don't know that Honda offers supplier discounts, but my company is a vendor to their Marysville OH manufacturing plant. Maybe isellhondas can shed some light on whether Honda offers supplier discounts.
Glad it's over? Yeah. No one likes to be bullied and no one likes to have their integrity questioned. I felt like this guy was doing both....to my sister. And, then....he tried to do the same to me.
Funny, from his voice on the phone, I got a mental picture of the GM as a fat, bald guy wearing sansabelt pants of a color not found in nature.
I think I would have responded that there is a $1000 "positive survey" fee that your sister forgot to deduct from the price of the car when she made her offer, but since it was her mistake, you would split the difference and give him good scores for $500. And tell him that you had dealt with your sister accordingly for not having deducted it originally....then finished with GO POUND SALT!!! - and hung up.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Picked out a nice little Elantra (for you sales guys, I am the customer you dream about. Walked on the lot, knew exactly what I wanted, pointed at the blue one and said "drive out price, please.")The sales guy brings out the deal and it is less than what I had figured by about $500. I am an honest guy and ask about it. Turns out there was an unadvertised incentive to the dealer for units with certain content, which this car had. He could have pocketed the $500 and I would never have known, but instead he sweetened the deal, still made some money, and I have told lots of folks who to see if they want a Hyundai.
Seems like well spent money on the dealers part, eh?
audia8q.....the alleged missing money could have been the difference between a lease and purchase. I don't know if the lease was subsidized by GM or not. It wouldn't surprise me if it was. GMS made no stipulation in their discount/pricing schedule that the "cash back" amounts were different for purchases vs leases. There were some finance variables that could be combined with lower cash back amounts, but I didn't look too closely at those since it was a lease. I combed the GMS paperwork, at least a half dozen times, to see if there was any mention of different amounts for lease or purchase. There were none.
But even if that was the case, all the dealership had to do was show us proof that the incentives were different on the lease than they were for purchase, and my sister would have been satisfied....and ponied up the cash. The dealership had numerous requests by both my sister and me, over several days, to give us the "proof" that what they said was indeed true. They didn't, wouldn't or couldn't.
I wasn't in the F&I office when my sister consumated the deal. I did ask her if the F&I person quizzed her about lease vs purchase. My sister said they took the discount/rebates right off the GMS authorization paperwork my sister brought with her. Then, they proceeded to fill out the lease forms based on those numbers.
My sister told me that after she had picked out the Malibu she wanted and test drove it, she told the sales person she was a GMS customer and already knew what the price would be. He told her there was nothing left for him to do except get the car ready for delivery. He then dumped her off in the F&I office. That was it. My sister said the only thing the F&I person tried to do was push an extended warranty. Since the lease was only for 27 months, she declined that.
A customer walks into a dealership with a brochure thats three or four years old that just a single fold paper that has a picture of a truck that outlines all the structural features of the truck. Customer wants to buy several trucks opens the brochure and says "I want them in this color".
Dealer then calls up our printer and asks what color is the truck in the brochure. :sick:
I just love our dealers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
One of my best customers sent me their son in law who wanted to buy a new Fit. He's a nice guy, but he wants to lower his payments which are currently at $360/mos. He has $2,700 worth of negative equity and wants to be under $300/mos with no money out of pocket.
I told him the only way to do that in his situation without putting any money down, would be on an 84 month purchase. Quite frankly, I think this is the dumbest decision he could possibly make and I won't sell him the car in that manner.
Let's do the math real quick. He has 3 years left on his loan. He wants to lower his payment by $60/mos. 36x60 = $2,160. In order to lower his payments, we need to go 84 months. So we extend his term, he's completely buried in the new vehicle, and he's paying a retarded amount of interest. All under the impression of saving money. I won't do it.
On a sidenote, he tells me that he's going to shop around and see if someone can get him a better deal at the dealership that his family used to buy cars at. I encourage him to do so, but then he continues and tells me a story about how 3 years ago they were able to give him $7k for a '89 Nissan Sentra with 250k.
:confuse:
So now I'm just sad because it's obvious that I'm dealing with a complete moron. But I don't say anything and just tell him to keep the car.
What would you sales guys do in that scenario?
So now I'm just sad because it's obvious that I'm dealing with a complete moron."
and he drives a FIT........
tell him to find a partner who is willing to buy a share in his FIT.....
No, I won't put someone into an 84 month contract!
Option A: Just 'stay the course'.
Option B: Try to sell it outright. Typically there is a $2000-$4000 difference between tradein value and retail value. With such a new vehicle selling it outright shouldn't be that hard. That makes up most or all of the NE he has.
Option C: Keep it but refinance it with another lender for a longer period. If the $60/mo is so burdensome there is no reason to get out of a nearly brand new vehicle.
Option
I think it's crappy salesmanship just to laydown for your customer, especially a referral, and let me get themselves deeper into debt.
The whole situation is just bugging me to death. Welcome to October!
However, I would have sold that guy in a heartbeat. And I would have told him to try and save $1k or so over the next couple years and buy an extended warranty that would cover him for the rest of the time of the loan.
Sure it's dumb to get an 84-month loan, but at least it's a Honda, it's a simple car, and it'll likely last with little trouble.
Everybody writes 4-year loans on 3-year-old cars, and nobody has ever explained to me why a new-car loan at 84 months is any worse.
-Mathias
The other alternative, of course, is "Don't buy a Fit", which is proving to be popular and priced higher than other cars - but it's probably not the best option for you, the sales guy.
Frankly, if he got $7k on his older trade-in, *I'll* go to that dealership. I should be able to sell my current car, and get enough back to buy a Miata!
Buying used is not the answer on popular cars; check out the following graphic: http://www.msu.edu/~steine13/cars.html. My apologies to those that have already seen it.
When I was making $14k/year, I paid cash for my cars... many cars, in part cuz they kept breaking. I'm not so sure it wouldn't have been cheaper in the long run to suck it up and buy a new Civic or Tacoma... and finance it for 5 years... back in '92, that would have seemed an awfully long term.
It's expensive to be poor...
-Mathias
You can’t make peace when the other guy wants to make war.
He said he didn't want the car back in his inventory and that there was nothing he could do about the deal since he already sent the paperwork into GMAC (who is the lease holder).
It should all be over then. You won, and rightly so.
Personally, I feel if the only way you can afford the car is to finance it for 72-84 mos, then you really can't afford the car. That's just my personal bias, though. Heck, I'm still trying to wrap my arms around why someone would finance a new car for 60 mos.
Regarding the guy who wants to lower his payments by buying a FIT, I don't think it's a salesperson's job to be a financial counselor. If someone wants an 84 mo loan, hey go for it. It's their money.
driveright....I'm comfortable with the way things turned out for my sister. Most of the dealerships I've done business with are honest and customer focused. Every once in a great while, I run into one that is less than reputable. I don't mind going to battle if I feel I've been wronged (or someone in my family has been wronged).
Looking at the figures it looks like he might have rolled negative equity from another car into this one. All he seems to be doing in burying himself deeper.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Its not so much of how long you streach out the loan in relationship to the age of the car. But rather how fast you can pay down the loan (or create equity). If you finance the entire amount (including TTL) it takes almost a year to pay off just the TTL on a 84 month loan. On that 84 month loan it will take forever to get any equity on the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No it isn't. Did you look at the Accord depreciation curve? If you think that's bad, try a Tacaoma.
A lot of cars and trucks look like that, even domestic ones, for instance the Chevy Silverado... at least the more pedestrian versions. First-year depreciation is steep only for cars like American luxury vehicles (Cadillac STS, anyone?) and for cars that are preceived as troublesome... which, obviously, aren't the answer either.
The market is pretty well calibrated to all these things, and stuff costs what it costs... like the housing market, there are very few real "deals" out there.
As far as the argument "then you can't afford the car", well, most people need to drive "something", and you won't save money in the long run if you drive beaters as opposed to driving a high-quality economy car into the ground.
84-month loans for a $34k 4x4 is a different story, I'm with you there.
Sorry for coming off as preachy, I just think the conventional wisdom has it all wrong here. Don't forget that "depreciation" is always calculated off of MSRP, not off street price... even a Taurus isn't so bad once you realize you can buy them new for $14...
-Mathias
With the great advent of the internet the playing field has been made a little more level , but not much. I think dealers still have the upper hand and will continue to until the car salesman start making NBA salaries with no commission(that'll never happen).
I just wrapped up a car buying year that entailed buying/leasing 3 cars, vowing never to buy a honda again, switching to toyota(I never thought it'd happen.) I'm tired of it and don't want to do it for many years. I know I'm just one consumer and one potentially sold accord doesn't matter when thousands are sold in a month's time. However one consumer can affect many other consumer thruogh word of mouth....but it doesn't really matter ....you'll get your money and that's that...at least I'll end up with a reliable Toyota.
Snake--I'm not sure if you or some of the others in this forum saw the King of Cars episode where a couple was trying to unload a well-used Chevy Blazer with substantial neg. equity and buy 2 replacement cars while paying less per month. I don't remember what the salesman found for the woman, but even after a prolonged search that netted the cheapest car (a Saturn Ion) on the lot the salesman and F & I guy couldn't find a financing "solution" that worked. Duh!
The salesman wasted the better part of a day trying to knit together a deal and the customers left disgruntled by the outcome. I can't understand why the salesman just didn't nicely, but forcefully, tell the couple it was impossible to do what they wanted until they either paid off the Blazer or had some equity built into the car. I suspect they had years to go before reaching either outcome.
I've seen about 5 episodes of the series and it's a rare customer who has any down payment and most owe at least something on their previous car, a car that usually looks perfectly functional for the near term.
In my small town I continue to see many, many 2-3 year old cars being advertised by the various dealership with 72, 78 and 84 month terms. Do any of these buyers really buy and hold a car through the 11th year or are they merely payment jumpers?
Gogiboy