Great cars but I can't think of any car that is more troublesome as they age than an Audi except maybe a Volvo.
JD Powers gives the A3 a 5 out of 10 predicted reliability rating, and the A4 is at 7 out of 10. For a 4 cyl with great turbo performance and all wheel quattro I would take my chances....esp if it was one of the few remaining manuals around.
If basing a car on reliability, the Accord comes out ahead at 9 out of 10 in JDs predictable reliability. If reliability was my main criterion for buying a car (and for most people that would be the most important factor), then I would go for the Accord, no question,
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s on the car he has at least $1300 invested just in the tires
I was thinking the same as a few people around here. 5000 miles left on the present tires wasn't that much, and you would have to buy tires within 6 months anyway. The value is still there (the extra cost is basically to cover the cost of the tires), especially since you are getting a good price on the trade in.
There would be no harm in putting in an offer, somewhere in the middle of your price and the dealers.
jmonroe: Good peptalk. And it would probably work, except for just two years ago I already got my dream car--the ultra loaded 08 we already have. She was pretty easy on just letting me get that one.
But, yeah, I haven't given up entirely. They just stopped making em, and so there will probably be a few floating around for a few more months. I still have a little time. I can't tell if it's brilliant or just plain idiotic two have two identical cars (except for color). The thing that might make it smart is that the controls really are kind of complicated with the navi, and it'd be nice to have a car where you already know how it all works, voice commands and all.
But, part of the joy of getting a new car is learning its ins and outs. I don't know if it wouldn't take some of the fun out of a new car if you already know pretty much everything about it...?
The value is still there (the extra cost is basically to cover the cost of the tires), especially since you are getting a good price on the trade in.
Not exactly, I had planned to buy a dedicated set of 17" winter wheels and tires next fall($992+shipping from Tire Rack) and put summer rubber on the OEM wheels in the spring. Now the car is fitted with a set of tires I don't want or need.
There would be no harm in putting in an offer, somewhere in the middle of your price and the dealers.
I already did; I raised my initial offer by $1000. No big deal, a friend is hot to sell me his immaculate E46 M3. If the M5 sells to someone else I'll just fly down to AL and drive the 3er back. And I'll never darken the door of the dealer's showroom again.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
...and it'd be nice to have a car where you already know how it all works, voice commands and all.
I still don't talk to my nav system. Kinda afraid to have people seeing my lips moving when they can see that there isn't anyone else in the car. Then again they could think I'm singing along with the radio. Anyway, I haven't read that far into the operation of that gizmo but I still have time. I just got that thing in March and I don't like to rush things; except maybe wax jobs and oil changes.
I knew you were going to get some grief from someone in the biz for inquiring about a car but not absolutely ready to buy NOW. You shoulda been here a while back when I called a dealer to confirm the increase in the PA doc fee that a poster mentioned right here on this board. You got off easy, believe me.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I know it's the principal buddy, but you're so picky about cars & KNOW WHAT YOU LOVE. You know you hate your Mazda. Give your salesman a few days to try and make things right.
If not, the $1500 isn't the end of the world. Take the tires off the car and sell em on ebay, bimmerfest, or in roundel classifieds.
Let us know what goes down. How many miles are on the E39 M5?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
i hope you get the car, but bmw's are expensive if anything needs to be fixed.
Sometimes that is the case- especially if you have to use an unscrupulous dealer who tries to gouge you at every turn. In my case,the local dealer has an excellent service departments that offers quality work at very fair prices. I also have a great indie BMW shop that I frequently use. Finally, I can handle most all of the simple jobs(oil, cooling system, brakes, etc.) myself- and I also have some first-rate parts sources. For example, BMW wants @$775 for front pads and rotors for an M5; I can obtain the equivalent parts -not Third World knock-offs- for $375.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Kinda afraid to have people seeing my lips moving when they can see that there isn't anyone else in the car. Then again they could think I'm singing along with the radio.
Or talking on the phone using a handsfree device.
Sadly, that's more the case today than singing with the radio.
However, if the 02 Honda has a few breakdowns and needs $500+ repairs 2 times in a year, I think it is time to start looking. I think it becomes a downward spiral at that point and it is better to cut your losses.
Assuming that I still enjoyed driving it & that my requirements hadn't changed, I don't think that I'd get rid of an 8-year-old car - particularly if it's a Honda - just because repair costs were running $1K per year. That works out to just $83 & change per month. What can you buy for that?
By contrast, 1st-year depreciation on a new $25K car will set me back at least $5K. If I finance the new car, I'll also incur interest expense, & chances are pretty good that my insurance premiums will go up. (You can get away with dropping collision coverage on an older car. That alone will offset much of the higher repair costs.)
Having owned Hondas since the mid-70s, I know that if you maintain the car properly & have a good independent mechanic, you can keep a Honda on the road for not much money for an insanely long time. Of course, it's another matter altogether if you're bored with the car & ready for something new. In that case, why not use repair costs as an excuse to move on? We've all done that.
Hey, I actually SAW that, and I'm not a really big TV person. We are of "a certain age," and like the actors in the show, so thought we'd give it a try. The pilot was quite good, and I'm also interested to see how they play out the car dealer characer (Andre Braugher). Hope they keep following his career in the series. (The 2nd episode is on our DVR.)
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
yeah, it takes a lot of repairs to really justify the purchase of a new car on economic grounds.
When I was putting $1000 a year into our 1988 Olds 98 a few years ago, however, it seemed like a losing battle--as well as a major hassle.
Right now our 02 Accord is costing on average maybe $150 in maintenance. And some years it's less than that--two oil changes for c.$30 each. It's a pretty basic car in a way--no abs, stability, etc. There's less to go wrong on it, and I could see it lasting a long, long time. The handling on the 02 is actually a bit better than for the 2008 Accord, which is a bit more boat-like. And the visibility on the 02 is a bit better too, because of thinner rear roof pillars. Sure doesn't have all the gadgets of a newer Accord--and my wife and I compete with each other for who gets to drive the 08, since we both really prefer it--but the 02 is just fine--if a little boring...
Of course, it's another matter altogether if you're bored with the car & ready for something new. In that case, why not use repair costs as an excuse to move on? We've all done that.
jimbres....truer words were never spoken. I've been down that road again, and again. Need a timing belt? Buh-bye car. Tires worn? Well, it's going to cost me $1,000 to replace them. May as well sell it.
As the economy has left me with less confidence, I don't do that much (as much, I should say).
Then, there are the times when the latest and greatest came out with (pick one or more), more HP, quieter, faster, handles better, looks better, etc, etc, and I was likely to make a purchase based on that.
I'd probably still be doing the drive it for a couple of years and then sell routine if I had more confidence in the economy. Call me paranoid. Or, maybe I'm just getting more conservative as my age creeps up. But, this is the first time, in a long time, that I've been satisfied with what I'm driving right now. Each vehicle I have serves a good purpose. They've served me well, and continue to do so.
I don't know if many feel the same way I do these days. If they do, perhaps that's why the current automobile malaise is still lingering.
Seems like I've helped a bunch of other people buy cars. Not doing the same for myself, however.
I still go to the auto shows. I touch, sit in and eyeball the new offerings. But, I also ask myself if those "new" models are that much better than what I've got parked in my garage. The answer is what I convince myself it should be.
truer words were never spoken. I've been down that road again, and again. Need a timing belt? Buh-bye car. Tires worn? Well, it's going to cost me $1,000 to replace them. May as well sell it.
That logic almost works on my Mazda. It currently needs @$2000 worth of tires, brakes, and -possibly- EGR system repairs. If another couple of grand will get me out of the MS3 and into a car I actually look forward to driving I'm way ahead of the game.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I don't think that I'd get rid of an 8-year-old car - particularly if it's a Honda - just because repair costs were running $1K per year. That works out to just $83 & change per month.
I find that once you put in $500 in twice in a row, something else will go and it will be endless. I see 2002 Accords for sale for $12000! If the new one costs $24000, you move into a new car for just $12000. You will have a warranty for 3 years, and if you keep the car for 10 years and average it out, that is buying a new car for $1200 a year (plus interest).
If you keep the 2002 Honda for another 4 years, it will be worth maybe $5000, and the new one will go up to $28 or $30k, and you will actually end up paying more....that is if you don't have any major repairs.
If your old car is running fine, don't trade unless you really want to and have the money. If it starts breaking down, my experience is, once you do 2 major repairs, the situation won't improve, you will keep pouring big chunks of money into a car pit.
Sorry, I have no confidence in troublesome cars and that is what these are.
It just depends on what your priorities are. If you want ultimate reliability, buy a Toyota. If you want a little more driving experience, but still want bulletproof reliability buy a Honda.
If you don't mind sacrificing some reliability, but driving experience is your most important objective, go with a European car. If you want some protection then lease, or be prepared to trade when the warranty is over, or buy an extended warranty when the time comes.
Hondas are good reliable cars, and you should have no problem representing them that way, but it isn't necessarily the right car for everyone, that depends on the buyers priorities.
I just sold my best friend a Mercedes E-320. He flew in from California to buy it.
I warned him several times that repairs would be more frequent and more expensive than on the Cadillacs he is used to driving. I had him read the reviews and suggested he call a couple of local shops. He did these things and he still bought the car. It's been two months and he just loves it.
I don't think I could have sold him an Audi or a Volvo.
driver: Great thoughts, but I'm afraid your math is too optimistic.
My 2002 Accord is an LX--in other words a pretty bare bones model. Maybe 2002 EXLs are going for 12k retail, but a cloth LX with a manual is a different story. As isell says, manuals tend to be tough to sell, and I don't imagine dealers are that eager to take them in trade.
Edmunds.com has a handy feature that will let you value your trade. The number they came up with for mine with 60k miles is c.$5900, I think. I paid $15,600 for it back in the summer of 2002, and we've had 7+ years of good use out of it already, and so I suppose that's not too bad. It was paid off three years ago. And we already own the 08 free and clear.
So, the 02 LX would make a decent down payment, but compared to the price of a 24k+ car--or 26k+ when you add ttl, it barely makes a dent. We've got good credit, and could finance with Honda's 2.9%, but my wife probably right that we shouldn't dive into a monthly payment unless we have to--and we don't.
Despite all that there's a tiny part of me that wonders if in a couple of years I won't kick myself. If, in 2012, by the time we do get rid of the 02 Accord (and when it's ten years old seems about time, before all the major stuff starts happening), I probably won't be able to get an Accord with a manual trans equipped like I like. May have to look at different brands. And most of the other brands I have problems with--burned on VW, even though I like how they look and drive, Toyota's too mushy, BMW too expensive and powerful, Hyundai--well, my wife won't consider that brand yet, even if I will, but handling again is likely to be mushy...
In other words, I can't quite put the final, final nail in this idea, even though my wife wants me to. And, in any case, it's actually been a nice distraction from things at work anyway...
I think it may annoy people like isell a bit, but some of us enjoy thinking about these car decisions sometimes long before they actually get made.../
I find that once you put in $500 in twice in a row, something else will go and it will be endless. I see 2002 Accords for sale for $12000! If the new one costs $24000, you move into a new car for just $12000.
Not so fast. Are these dealer's asking prices or actual transactions between two individuals? I find it hard to believe too many people would really get 12K for 7-8 y.o. Accord. Edmunds TMV sets the price between 5 and 10 grand depending on options and whether sold individually, traded or from dealer.
You also conveniently forget about taxes (5-8% of $24K or difference between price and trade, but then you don't believe any dealer would pay you 12K for the Accord, do you?). Oh - we also have interest on a spanking new loan (unless of course you're paying cash, but how many people do?). So let's now make a real math:
Old Accord, say it's EX with a few nice things: trade 7K, individual sale 9K New Accord: 24K+fee A, fee B, fee C - well let's say it's been reduced to $500 give or take sales tax: FL is 6% of 24.5 or (24.5-7) - $1000-$1500 interest: 48-month loan on say $15K @ 5% about 2 grand
So your "only 12K for new car" is really $19K-$22K depending on some variables, perhaps a little less if you can get 0.9% deal from the manufacturer. And that doesn't even include difference in depreciation between new and old car from the day you bought a new one (this math gets a little more complicated, because it had to be taken in context of longer period to include more cars, e.g. 3 vs. 5 cars over 30 years).
Each vehicle I have serves a good purpose. They've served me well, and continue to do so.
I know what you mean. Our household operates 3 cars, all of which we own free & clear. (In fact, we paid cash for the last 2.)
As I've gotten older, I've come to loathe monthly payments. I'd rather fix what I own & stay free of car payments than start the payment cycle all over again just to avoid a possible future repair expense.
And, as you say, I haven't seen or driven anything that has tested my self-discipline. Earlier this year, I spent a couple of hours behind the wheel of a new 3-series coupe - a dealer loaner provided to a friend of mine while his 535xi was waiting for a part to arrive from Germany. I thoroughly enjoyed myself, but when it was all over, I decided that this new 3 wasn't one bit more fun to drive than my 2001 330i. Yes, it had some neat features, but none of them added a thing to the car's overall entertainment value.
I do tend to paint a simple rosy picture but until recently I struggled to make car payments, but I always traded in at about 60k to 80k miles. That's when your car will start need quite a few parts....unless it is a Honda or Toyota it seems.
Then, as you pour money into your depreciating asset, and count the hours spent at the garage, and stare at your bundle of rust that won't start in the morning to get you to work on time, I don't think it costs too much more to drive the new car. I have worried about how I would ever pay for most of my new cars, but in the end I never regretted buying one of them.
Don't forget in your calculations, you haven't calculated the huge cost of trading in a car worth "zero" for a car that will cost about $5000 more when ready to trade.
I think, with your great mathematical ability, which you have demonstrated, it would be interesting to work out the cost per month of staying with the current car (include repairs, cost of a new car in 5 years, low value of current car in 5 years, etc.) and you will find that driving the new car might cost $1500 a year more overall, but it could be well worth it.
I don't recommend this in the case we are discussing though, because his current car has not had any problems, he is quite happy with it, and keeping his wife happy is job 1. However, if the car starts needing repairs (which it probably won't), I would consider the Driver - Pay a little more now, or pay a lot more later, method of rationalizing the buying of a new car.
If your old car is running fine, don't trade unless you really want to and have the money. If it starts breaking down, my experience is, once you do 2 major repairs, the situation won't improve, you will keep pouring big chunks of money into a car pit.
That's just from my experience.
Well, my experience is that it depends on the brand in question. I once managed to squeeze more than 13 years from a Ford Taurus. Looking back on that experience, I now wish that I had followed your rule. (To be fair, I should say that the quality of Ford products is vastly better today.)
But I wouldn't apply your rule to a top-tier Japanese brand purchased new & properly maintained.
As soon as I say I'm happy with what I've got, I get a call from a good friend of mine. His wife is a big Benz lover. She's got a 98 E320 4 Matic. Always garaged. Meticulously cared for by the selling dealer. She literally drove it back and forth to work (about 10 miles round trip) and a side trip to the grocery, or to visit local relatives. It's got about 65K miles. Tires are good. Service is up-to-date. Never wrecked. Professionally detailed twice/year since new. Aside from a few (and I mean very few) teeny rock chips, the finish is as perfect as I've seen on any used car, let alone one that's 10 years old.
She wants a new E series. Nothing wrong with the old one. She just thinks it's time for a new one.
It's white exterior with beige leather interior.
They're going to put it in the newspaper for $8K. They've given me first crack at it for $7K.
I don't know diddly about these cars, except they're extremely well built....especially the older ones.
However, if the car starts needing repairs (which it probably won't), I would consider the Driver - Pay a little more now, or pay a lot more later, method of rationalizing the buying of a new car.
I think that the main reason why people worry about post-warranty repair costs is that they haven't adequately budgeted for these expenses.
Many years ago, I began setting aside some money for car repair costs out of each salary check. I start doing this when the car is new & I keep this money in a separate account. (For the last few years, I've used an online savings account for this. I've set up automatic monthly transfers into this account from our checking account.)
In the unlikely event that I'm hit with a $5 or $6K repair bill tomorrow, I won't sweat it because I've got the funds to cover it. I won't be happy about it, of course - I'll be lousy company for a few days - but I won't have to change my vacation plans or hold off buying those new speakers that I've wanted.
When a friend tells me that he just bought a new car because he was afraid that it would cost too much to keep his old car running, I figure that he's really telling me something about the state of his finances. I can't help suspecting that he's strapped for cash & that he can't see an alternative to signing up for another 48 or 60 month loan. Would he think the same way if he had a well-funded repair account? Probably not, I think.
When you're financially prepared to handle repair costs, they're a lot less frightening.
I enjoy changing my own oil. It all started with our 1999 VW Passat. The dealer would need the car for a whole day to do an oil change, and then I wasn't certain they were using the right oil. So I started doing it myself, and it takes me 45 minutes from start to finish. The old oil goes to the nearest auto parts store for free recycling.
I do the oil on my 2004 Expedition as well, and it only takes me 30 minutes. I use oil that meets Ford specs, and I know it's been changed and done right. I think that the time spent taking the car to Jiffy Lube, waiting to get it changed, suffering through the "you need a fuel injection cleaning" upsell, I am saving time.
I certainly don't do my own tires. I have lifetime rotation and balance from Kaufmann Tire for both cars, and I let them handle that ;-)
graphic guy: Wow. That sounds like a great price on that car. MBs are often quite expensive to maintain, but as long as you can budget for that it'll probably be fine. I think some people who buy cars like this figure that the first really major issue they hit they made need to ditch it, but given the low miles and good car, that might be many years and many miles away. Maybe you should get it checked out by a local MB mechanic to see if there are any likely major issues coming up? Sounds like a great car. Drove a MB only once, but it was amazing. Even the steering wheel felt different--rock solid, in a beautiful way. Hope it works out for you.
$7k sounds about right if it's as good as they/you say it is and they have a book with all receipts for maintenance that was followed to a tee.
Otherwise I'd say about $5k is all the money. AWD helps resale if you live in a region where snow falls regularly during winters.
And like Ben said, just be ready for higher than average maintenance costs because it's a Benz, and because of the mileage and age where things will start needing replacement.
She's got a 98 E320 4 Matic. Always garaged. Meticulously cared for by the selling dealer.
It sounds great, and with that mileage should last another 10 years minimum. I have driven those and older and they are amazing cars...rock solid with great steering. I like those 10 year old ones more than the new ones when they are kept up.
But I wouldn't apply your rule to a top-tier Japanese brand purchased new & properly maintained.
There are some cars that are worth fixing, but others not should be continually fixed.
I had a friend who had an old Topaz and he probably paid an average of about $400 a month for over 2 years to do repairs to keep it going. When he spent $400 he would think that was the end of the problem, but then something else would go. I kept telling him to cut his losses and get a new car. He finally bought a Blazer when they were almost giving them away. It has had some problems, but basically with the driving he does it will last 10 years and cost $15k, so for $1500 a year he got a fresh start, and it cost a lot less than the old Topaz that could cut out on the highway, had fading brakes, doors that wouldn't close properly, a heater that wasn't working properly, and was not very dependable.
Agree, some cars are worth it to keep them going, but it happens too often, someone thinks just one more repair and i'll keep it going, but then another major one comes up again...sometimes it is better to take your loss and start over.
From all costs it really the first five years of depreciation is the highest cost of ownership. I ran that many times and it always comes to that: there is no doubt in my mind that keeping old pile of rust is actually most financially sound thing to do. As is buying 2-3 year old used cars, or many other things.
So why many of us buy sooner (myself included - last year I traded a perfectly good car at 6 years/85K miles for a spanking brand new)? Surely not because it is a smart thing to do. It is simple - because we can (or we think we can). Then of course we all invent rationally-sounding reasons for our "I can look at it anymore" and look for an enabler in form of a salesman to "explain" to us how smart we are by buying that new thing that loses 10-20% the moment we put license plate on it
All I know is he was too embarassed to admit every repair, and it seemed the ones I did find out about cost $300 or $400 a pop. It might have been every other month, but, even then, the car would shake on the highway, the heater isn't working.....and he could try to keep it going, but he had a pretty good job, so he should be able to live like a human being and get a reasonably good car. Better than a car that was totally unsafe and unreliable.
From all costs it really the first five years of depreciation is the highest cost of ownership
If you really want to be the most practical person in the world, then buy a one or two year old car when the depreciation is the greatest, then keep it for 10 years. Then do it again. Many people love being practical and they get great enjoyment out of saving money. If that is their goal that is great, I like to have a new car every few years and not have to worry about repairs, have the latest safety and other features. But, like you said, sometimes we do it because we can. I had enough years when I couldn't, and now I just want to buy it if I can. I don't get a big kick out of doing without, and saving a few bucks here and there....some people want to take their money with them into the next life too.
There's a good line for a salesman......buy what you want, when you want....why save money, when you can't take it with you any way.
There is one more variable to keeping or selling an older vehicle.
What kind of winters does the car have to endure, or more correctly, how much SALT does your municipality put on the roads. Around here any 10 year old daily driver vehicle has some rust starting, and within a couple of years after that looks like ****.
I'm with driver on this one. A 1990 car will have nowhere near the same safety features as a 2002 car. The 1998 to 2010 might not be as much of a difference, but it's still significant.
I owned a Topaz back around 91-93 IIRC so I can say with confidence that it's entirely possible to spend more on repairs than on payments. Kept popping belts. Found the pulley mount was cracked. Ford had redesigned the replacement part so they were obviously aware of the deficiency. Also has a bad ECU where it would suddenly rev the engine meaning you'd be riding the brakes to keep down to 55 on the highway. They did a recall for ATs but not for MT-equipped cars like mine. There were other things like failing U joints and other things that just plain wore out too soon. The day I went to trade it in the drivers window fell out of it's track and wouldn't roll up.
Liked the car; plenty of power for a 4 banger of that era. Comfortable seats. Just less reliable than a politician. That was also the last domestic I've owned and also the only car I've ever owned for less than a hundred thousand miles.
Comments
JD Powers gives the A3 a 5 out of 10 predicted reliability rating, and the A4 is at 7 out of 10. For a 4 cyl with great turbo performance and all wheel quattro I would take my chances....esp if it was one of the few remaining manuals around.
If basing a car on reliability, the Accord comes out ahead at 9 out of 10 in JDs predictable reliability. If reliability was my main criterion for buying a car (and for most people that would be the most important factor), then I would go for the Accord, no question,
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
C'mon man-up and buy that beauty. Let her know here and now that you ain't no wimp. If I can do it with the one I live with, anyone can do it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I was thinking the same as a few people around here. 5000 miles left on the present tires wasn't that much, and you would have to buy tires within 6 months anyway. The value is still there (the extra cost is basically to cover the cost of the tires), especially since you are getting a good price on the trade in.
There would be no harm in putting in an offer, somewhere in the middle of your price and the dealers.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
But, yeah, I haven't given up entirely. They just stopped making em, and so there will probably be a few floating around for a few more months. I still have a little time. I can't tell if it's brilliant or just plain idiotic two have two identical cars (except for color). The thing that might make it smart is that the controls really are kind of complicated with the navi, and it'd be nice to have a car where you already know how it all works, voice commands and all.
But, part of the joy of getting a new car is learning its ins and outs. I don't know if it wouldn't take some of the fun out of a new car if you already know pretty much everything about it...?
"I'd rather push a VW than drive a Honda" :P
Not exactly, I had planned to buy a dedicated set of 17" winter wheels and tires next fall($992+shipping from Tire Rack) and put summer rubber on the OEM wheels in the spring. Now the car is fitted with a set of tires I don't want or need.
There would be no harm in putting in an offer, somewhere in the middle of your price and the dealers.
I already did; I raised my initial offer by $1000. No big deal, a friend is hot to sell me his immaculate E46 M3. If the M5 sells to someone else I'll just fly down to AL and drive the 3er back. And I'll never darken the door of the dealer's showroom again.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I still don't talk to my nav system. Kinda afraid to have people seeing my lips moving when they can see that there isn't anyone else in the car. Then again they could think I'm singing along with the radio. Anyway, I haven't read that far into the operation of that gizmo but I still have time. I just got that thing in March and I don't like to rush things; except maybe wax jobs and oil changes.
I knew you were going to get some grief from someone in the biz for inquiring about a car but not absolutely ready to buy NOW. You shoulda been here a while back when I called a dealer to confirm the increase in the PA doc fee that a poster mentioned right here on this board.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
If not, the $1500 isn't the end of the world. Take the tires off the car and sell em on ebay, bimmerfest, or in roundel classifieds.
Let us know what goes down. How many miles are on the E39 M5?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Sometimes that is the case- especially if you have to use an unscrupulous dealer who tries to gouge you at every turn. In my case,the local dealer has an excellent service departments that offers quality work at very fair prices. I also have a great indie BMW shop that I frequently use. Finally, I can handle most all of the simple jobs(oil, cooling system, brakes, etc.) myself- and I also have some first-rate parts sources. For example, BMW wants @$775 for front pads and rotors for an M5; I can obtain the equivalent parts -not Third World knock-offs- for $375.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Will do; the car has almost 91K on it. That's another reason it may sit for a while- especially with an asking price of almost $17K.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Or talking on the phone using a handsfree device.
Sadly, that's more the case today than singing with the radio.
lol I never thought about that, but now that you mention it, I think I would agree.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Assuming that I still enjoyed driving it & that my requirements hadn't changed, I don't think that I'd get rid of an 8-year-old car - particularly if it's a Honda - just because repair costs were running $1K per year. That works out to just $83 & change per month. What can you buy for that?
By contrast, 1st-year depreciation on a new $25K car will set me back at least $5K. If I finance the new car, I'll also incur interest expense, & chances are pretty good that my insurance premiums will go up. (You can get away with dropping collision coverage on an older car. That alone will offset much of the higher repair costs.)
Having owned Hondas since the mid-70s, I know that if you maintain the car properly & have a good independent mechanic, you can keep a Honda on the road for not much money for an insanely long time. Of course, it's another matter altogether if you're bored with the car & ready for something new. In that case, why not use repair costs as an excuse to move on? We've all done that.
Is this another way of saying you know when to keep your mouth shut? :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Sadly, that's more the case today than singing with the radio.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I even hesitate to answer the Bluetooth in my car because of that.
I’m sorry I didn’t pay more attention to my ventriloquism classes. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
When I was putting $1000 a year into our 1988 Olds 98 a few years ago, however, it seemed like a losing battle--as well as a major hassle.
Right now our 02 Accord is costing on average maybe $150 in maintenance. And some years it's less than that--two oil changes for c.$30 each. It's a pretty basic car in a way--no abs, stability, etc. There's less to go wrong on it, and I could see it lasting a long, long time. The handling on the 02 is actually a bit better than for the 2008 Accord, which is a bit more boat-like. And the visibility on the 02 is a bit better too, because of thinner rear roof pillars. Sure doesn't have all the gadgets of a newer Accord--and my wife and I compete with each other for who gets to drive the 08, since we both really prefer it--but the 02 is just fine--if a little boring...
jimbres....truer words were never spoken. I've been down that road again, and again. Need a timing belt? Buh-bye car. Tires worn? Well, it's going to cost me $1,000 to replace them. May as well sell it.
As the economy has left me with less confidence, I don't do that much (as much, I should say).
Then, there are the times when the latest and greatest came out with (pick one or more), more HP, quieter, faster, handles better, looks better, etc, etc, and I was likely to make a purchase based on that.
I'd probably still be doing the drive it for a couple of years and then sell routine if I had more confidence in the economy. Call me paranoid. Or, maybe I'm just getting more conservative as my age creeps up. But, this is the first time, in a long time, that I've been satisfied with what I'm driving right now. Each vehicle I have serves a good purpose. They've served me well, and continue to do so.
I don't know if many feel the same way I do these days. If they do, perhaps that's why the current automobile malaise is still lingering.
Seems like I've helped a bunch of other people buy cars. Not doing the same for myself, however.
I still go to the auto shows. I touch, sit in and eyeball the new offerings. But, I also ask myself if those "new" models are that much better than what I've got parked in my garage. The answer is what I convince myself it should be.
Yes, they do. Saw the second episode last night ... quite funny how they deal with the whole "demo" issue.
Hugely fictional ... but hugely fun, too.
That logic almost works on my Mazda. It currently needs @$2000 worth of tires, brakes, and -possibly- EGR system repairs. If another couple of grand will get me out of the MS3 and into a car I actually look forward to driving I'm way ahead of the game.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I find that once you put in $500 in twice in a row, something else will go and it will be endless. I see 2002 Accords for sale for $12000! If the new one costs $24000,
you move into a new car for just $12000. You will have a warranty for 3 years, and if you keep the car for 10 years and average it out, that is buying a new car for $1200 a year (plus interest).
If you keep the 2002 Honda for another 4 years, it will be worth maybe $5000, and the new one will go up to $28 or $30k, and you will actually end up paying more....that is if you don't have any major repairs.
If your old car is running fine, don't trade unless you really want to and have the money. If it starts breaking down, my experience is, once you do 2 major repairs, the situation won't improve, you will keep pouring big chunks of money into a car pit.
That's just from my experience.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It just depends on what your priorities are. If you want ultimate reliability, buy a Toyota. If you want a little more driving experience, but still want bulletproof reliability buy a Honda.
If you don't mind sacrificing some reliability, but driving experience is your most important objective, go with a European car. If you want some protection then lease, or be prepared to trade when the warranty is over, or buy an extended warranty when the time comes.
Hondas are good reliable cars, and you should have no problem representing them that way, but it isn't necessarily the right car for everyone, that depends on the buyers priorities.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I just sold my best friend a Mercedes E-320. He flew in from California to buy it.
I warned him several times that repairs would be more frequent and more expensive than on the Cadillacs he is used to driving. I had him read the reviews and suggested he call a couple of local shops. He did these things and he still bought the car. It's been two months and he just loves it.
I don't think I could have sold him an Audi or a Volvo.
My 2002 Accord is an LX--in other words a pretty bare bones model. Maybe 2002 EXLs are going for 12k retail, but a cloth LX with a manual is a different story. As isell says, manuals tend to be tough to sell, and I don't imagine dealers are that eager to take them in trade.
Edmunds.com has a handy feature that will let you value your trade. The number they came up with for mine with 60k miles is c.$5900, I think. I paid $15,600 for it back in the summer of 2002, and we've had 7+ years of good use out of it already, and so I suppose that's not too bad. It was paid off three years ago. And we already own the 08 free and clear.
So, the 02 LX would make a decent down payment, but compared to the price of a 24k+ car--or 26k+ when you add ttl, it barely makes a dent. We've got good credit, and could finance with Honda's 2.9%, but my wife probably right that we shouldn't dive into a monthly payment unless we have to--and we don't.
Despite all that there's a tiny part of me that wonders if in a couple of years I won't kick myself. If, in 2012, by the time we do get rid of the 02 Accord (and when it's ten years old seems about time, before all the major stuff starts happening), I probably won't be able to get an Accord with a manual trans equipped like I like. May have to look at different brands. And most of the other brands I have problems with--burned on VW, even though I like how they look and drive, Toyota's too mushy, BMW too expensive and powerful, Hyundai--well, my wife won't consider that brand yet, even if I will, but handling again is likely to be mushy...
In other words, I can't quite put the final, final nail in this idea, even though my wife wants me to. And, in any case, it's actually been a nice distraction from things at work anyway...
I think it may annoy people like isell a bit, but some of us enjoy thinking about these car decisions sometimes long before they actually get made.../
Not so fast. Are these dealer's asking prices or actual transactions between two individuals? I find it hard to believe too many people would really get 12K for 7-8 y.o. Accord. Edmunds TMV sets the price between 5 and 10 grand depending on options and whether sold individually, traded or from dealer.
You also conveniently forget about taxes (5-8% of $24K or difference between price and trade, but then you don't believe any dealer would pay you 12K for the Accord, do you?). Oh - we also have interest on a spanking new loan (unless of course you're paying cash, but how many people do?). So let's now make a real math:
Old Accord, say it's EX with a few nice things: trade 7K, individual sale 9K
New Accord: 24K+fee A, fee B, fee C - well let's say it's been reduced to $500 give or take
sales tax: FL is 6% of 24.5 or (24.5-7) - $1000-$1500
interest: 48-month loan on say $15K @ 5% about 2 grand
So your "only 12K for new car" is really $19K-$22K depending on some variables, perhaps a little less if you can get 0.9% deal from the manufacturer. And that doesn't even include difference in depreciation between new and old car from the day you bought a new one (this math gets a little more complicated, because it had to be taken in context of longer period to include more cars, e.g. 3 vs. 5 cars over 30 years).
You should be a salesman, you know.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You must be joking. Too much horsepower is barely enough; My next Bimmer will have a minimum of 320 bhp- and hopefully closer to 400...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I know what you mean. Our household operates 3 cars, all of which we own free & clear. (In fact, we paid cash for the last 2.)
As I've gotten older, I've come to loathe monthly payments. I'd rather fix what I own & stay free of car payments than start the payment cycle all over again just to avoid a possible future repair expense.
And, as you say, I haven't seen or driven anything that has tested my self-discipline. Earlier this year, I spent a couple of hours behind the wheel of a new 3-series coupe - a dealer loaner provided to a friend of mine while his 535xi was waiting for a part to arrive from Germany. I thoroughly enjoyed myself, but when it was all over, I decided that this new 3 wasn't one bit more fun to drive than my 2001 330i. Yes, it had some neat features, but none of them added a thing to the car's overall entertainment value.
So for now, I'm happy to be out of the market.
I do tend to paint a simple rosy picture but until recently I struggled to make car payments, but I always traded in at about 60k to 80k miles. That's when your car will start need quite a few parts....unless it is a Honda or Toyota it seems.
Then, as you pour money into your depreciating asset, and count the hours spent at the garage, and stare at your bundle of rust that won't start in the morning to get you to work on time, I don't think it costs too much more to drive the new car. I have worried about how I would ever pay for most of my new cars, but in the end I never regretted buying one of them.
Don't forget in your calculations, you haven't calculated the huge cost of trading in a car worth "zero" for a car that will cost about $5000 more when ready to trade.
I think, with your great mathematical ability, which you have demonstrated, it would be interesting to work out the cost per month of staying with the current car (include repairs, cost of a new car in 5 years, low value of current car in 5 years, etc.) and you will find that driving the new car might cost $1500 a year more overall, but it could be well worth it.
I don't recommend this in the case we are discussing though, because his current car has not had any problems, he is quite happy with it, and keeping his wife happy is job 1. However, if the car starts needing repairs (which it probably won't), I would consider the Driver - Pay a little more now, or pay a lot more later, method of rationalizing the buying of a new car.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Unless guys in Kopenhagen get their way. Then you'll have to adopt half of the Amazon just to get mere 200 hp
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That's just from my experience.
Well, my experience is that it depends on the brand in question. I once managed to squeeze more than 13 years from a Ford Taurus. Looking back on that experience, I now wish that I had followed your rule. (To be fair, I should say that the quality of Ford products is vastly better today.)
But I wouldn't apply your rule to a top-tier Japanese brand purchased new & properly maintained.
She wants a new E series. Nothing wrong with the old one. She just thinks it's time for a new one.
It's white exterior with beige leather interior.
They're going to put it in the newspaper for $8K. They've given me first crack at it for $7K.
I don't know diddly about these cars, except they're extremely well built....especially the older ones.
Anyone care to give me some guidance here?
I think that the main reason why people worry about post-warranty repair costs is that they haven't adequately budgeted for these expenses.
Many years ago, I began setting aside some money for car repair costs out of each salary check. I start doing this when the car is new & I keep this money in a separate account. (For the last few years, I've used an online savings account for this. I've set up automatic monthly transfers into this account from our checking account.)
In the unlikely event that I'm hit with a $5 or $6K repair bill tomorrow, I won't sweat it because I've got the funds to cover it. I won't be happy about it, of course - I'll be lousy company for a few days - but I won't have to change my vacation plans or hold off buying those new speakers that I've wanted.
When a friend tells me that he just bought a new car because he was afraid that it would cost too much to keep his old car running, I figure that he's really telling me something about the state of his finances. I can't help suspecting that he's strapped for cash & that he can't see an alternative to signing up for another 48 or 60 month loan. Would he think the same way if he had a well-funded repair account? Probably not, I think.
When you're financially prepared to handle repair costs, they're a lot less frightening.
I do the oil on my 2004 Expedition as well, and it only takes me 30 minutes. I use oil that meets Ford specs, and I know it's been changed and done right. I think that the time spent taking the car to Jiffy Lube, waiting to get it changed, suffering through the "you need a fuel injection cleaning" upsell, I am saving time.
I certainly don't do my own tires. I have lifetime rotation and balance from Kaufmann Tire for both cars, and I let them handle that ;-)
Otherwise I'd say about $5k is all the money. AWD helps resale if you live in a region where snow falls regularly during winters.
And like Ben said, just be ready for higher than average maintenance costs because it's a Benz, and because of the mileage and age where things will start needing replacement.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
It sounds great, and with that mileage should last another 10 years minimum. I have driven those and older and they are amazing cars...rock solid with great steering. I like those 10 year old ones more than the new ones when they are kept up.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
There are some cars that are worth fixing, but others not should be continually fixed.
I had a friend who had an old Topaz and he probably paid an average of about $400 a month for over 2 years to do repairs to keep it going. When he spent $400 he would think that was the end of the problem, but then something else would go. I kept telling him to cut his losses and get a new car. He finally bought a Blazer when they were almost giving them away. It has had some problems, but basically with the driving he does it will last 10 years and cost $15k, so for $1500 a year he got a fresh start, and it cost a lot less than the old Topaz that could cut out on the highway, had fading brakes, doors that wouldn't close properly, a heater that wasn't working properly, and was not very dependable.
Agree, some cars are worth it to keep them going, but it happens too often, someone thinks just one more repair and i'll keep it going, but then another major one comes up again...sometimes it is better to take your loss and start over.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That's what I'm afraid of; I want to enjoy a few of those beasts in case the Eco-[non-permissible content removed] gets their way...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So why many of us buy sooner (myself included - last year I traded a perfectly good car at 6 years/85K miles for a spanking brand new)? Surely not because it is a smart thing to do. It is simple - because we can (or we think we can). Then of course we all invent rationally-sounding reasons for our "I can look at it anymore" and look for an enabler in form of a salesman to "explain" to us how smart we are by buying that new thing that loses 10-20% the moment we put license plate on it
2018 430i Gran Coupe
$9,600 in two years? That is really hard to believe. Perhaps your friend is exaggerating....
All I know is he was too embarassed to admit every repair, and it seemed the ones I did find out about cost $300 or $400 a pop. It might have been every other month, but, even then, the car would shake on the highway, the heater isn't working.....and he could try to keep it going, but he had a pretty good job, so he should be able to live like a human being and get a reasonably good car. Better than a car that was totally unsafe and unreliable.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
If you really want to be the most practical person in the world, then buy a one or two year old car when the depreciation is the greatest, then keep it for 10 years. Then do it again. Many people love being practical and they get great enjoyment out of saving money. If that is their goal that is great, I like to have a new car every few years and not have to worry about repairs, have the latest safety and other features. But, like you said, sometimes we do it because we can. I had enough years when I couldn't, and now I just want to buy it if I can. I don't get a big kick out of doing without, and saving a few bucks here and there....some people want to take their money with them into the next life too.
There's a good line for a salesman......buy what you want, when you want....why save money, when you can't take it with you any way.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
What kind of winters does the car have to endure, or more correctly, how much SALT does your municipality put on the roads. Around here any 10 year old daily driver vehicle has some rust starting, and within a couple of years after that looks like ****.
I am going to turn it into travelers checks and take it with me. :shades:
I'm with driver on this one. A 1990 car will have nowhere near the same safety features as a 2002 car. The 1998 to 2010 might not be as much of a difference, but it's still significant.
(buy 2 year old car, keep it 10 years)
Liked the car; plenty of power for a 4 banger of that era. Comfortable seats. Just less reliable than a politician. That was also the last domestic I've owned and also the only car I've ever owned for less than a hundred thousand miles.