I was billed for each of these services which never cured the problem.
Yes, this is frustrating and is a problem that happens all the time. If you did complain they will say, those parts needed replacing any way.
But, I would talk it over with the owner or General Manager. They might give you a discount. I would also hint that if they want your business next time (and the business of every one you know), they should resolve the problem. I also hint and will actually write to a consumer advocate on TV or the newspaper. Although head office is rarely of much help, you might try emailing them with your complaint.
I get so upset I just get to the point where I would get rid of it, but that's me. Our 95 Volvo couldn't be fixed properly by 3 different dealers so we traded it in early and made arrangements to payoff the lease. I find once you reach a total of $500 or $800 in repairs, and aren't really getting ahead, you are probably better off getting a new car with a warranty.
I own a somewhat rare Honda Accord. I know, I know, that seems impossible, but it's a 2008 Accord EXL navi with the 5 speed manual transmission. The manual is what makes it rare, and I had to special order it to get it.
I found out from Honda's web site that it appears they are phasing out this model. Manuals on Accords from here on out, it looks like, will only be offered on LX and EX cloth models. In other words, soon you won't be able to get the car I have. And I love the car for many reasons, and crazy though it seems I'm vaguely considering the idea of getting another. My wife is against it for good reason--our other car is a 2002 Accord LX manual with only 60k miles, new tires, and plenty of life left.
Anyway, I was using the Edmunds inventory function to find out if any dealers still have any EXL navi 5MTs in stock. It appeared there was a dealer in SC that had some. In fact, when I went to their site and looked in their inventory, it looked like they had several exl navi 5mts for both 2009 and 2010. I couldn't figure it out. That's such a rare model that few people want that it didn't seem possible that a dealer would stock more than one of them. Now I'm thinking that this inventory is not just for this dealer, but for every dealer within 500 miles or something. Here's a link to the inventory (hope that's allowed). My question is, how do you figure out where these cars actually are, or can you?
Anyone in the know about how these Honda inventory web sites work?
"...an owner takes his problematic vehicle to a shop..."
At least your van has only one problem. Mine keeps coming up with new ways to drain my wallet.
I thought I had fixed every possible part on it when it left me stranded on the interstate at 5 am after dying suddenly. Since I had no cell phone I had to cross a frozen field and scale a fence to get into an industrial park in hopes of finding help. A nice woman driving through this otherwise deserted area was kind enough to stop and call some help for me. That was something of a shock because I would not have stopped for some grizzled old coot running through the dark at that hour. I guess there are nice people left in the world.
I climbed back over the fence and a few minutes later the troopers arrived and called me a tow. We spent the time chatting about cars and traffic laws until the tow truck came.
After all that fuss it turned out that when the previous owner replaced the motor they had reconnected the coil wire backwards (never knew there was any difference between the ends) and over the years it had worked it's way loose. Couple of bucks to fix it. Whew.
Now I bring a cell when I drive it. I'm too old to be scaling fences in the dark like Batman.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
later the troopers arrived and called me a tow. We spent the time chatting about cars and traffic laws
You have improved your social life since buying that van. You had a nice chat with the fellow you bought the van from, you met a nice lady in the industrial park, the troopers, and some nice mechanics.
"...most dealers would be pretty eager to get rid of a 2009 exl navi manual..."
I bet isellhondas could tell you what you need to know. I seem to remember him saying ANY manual tranny is a dog on the market. If your inventory info is correct the dealer should be begging you to take it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
. The manual is what makes it rare, and I had to special order it to get it.
Hopefully, you will get a reply from isellhondas, soon, he can probably help. We went over how rare Honda manuals are, and how very few people buy them, so few dealers carry them, they tend to sit on the lot for a long time. While waiting check some of the posts around Nov 18 2009.
I sell a lot of new Hondas and it's probably been five years since I've sold an Accord with a manual transmission.
I just pulled a "locate" and there are zero five speed EXL or NAVI's in our two state district. Stores don't order any because they simply do not sell.
On the LX models, there is ONE in Washington and we happen to have it.
If Honda were to drop Accord manuals, it wouldn't suprise me one bit.
They are pretty saleproof but as new and used cars.
Wow. Thanks everyone for your replies--particularly isellhondas. Your thought that it wouldn't be a surprise to see Honda drop manuals in the next few years for the Accord fits in with what I've been thinking. The tragedy for people who love manuals is that Honda makes the best around--equal to anything by BMW, and better than anyone else but BMW. So, for them to give it up is sad. But I understand the reality of the market--few people want to shift, and today an auto gets the same mpg as a manual, and sometimes even better.
Isell--any chance you looked at that inventory link I posted. It's strange because it lists over 1000 cars. I assume that's for some multi-state region? How do I tell which dealers actually have these cars?
And what happens if I decide I might like to try for one of these exl navi manuals--if the price is right, that is? Is there a more or less standard price for having a dealer from a few hundred miles away drive this car to Louisville, where none seem to be available? Or, is that negotiated on a case by case basis? And should I try working with the dealer that currently has the car, or with my local dealer? It's made more problematic because the salesperson I'd forged a relationship with at my local Honda dealer, and had bought two Accords from in 5 years, suddenly retired in early 2009 as the recession took hold...
the reality of the market--few people want to shift, and today an auto gets the same mpg as a manual, and sometimes even better.
I am sure isell will get back to you....he always comes through with good reliable information.
You are right about people not wanting to shift any more. When we bought our 2008 bmws, both 6 speed standards, the salesmaen said the number of standards sold is going down each year. Even for bmw which was as high as 40% manual just a few years ago. But, most seniors don't want to shift gears, most teenagers don't want to learn and don't need to because their family cars are automatic, many people can't talk on phones or text with a manual.
When I was taught how to drive I was told if you shift right, the shifting should be smoother than an automatic....and that was my goal. Today, you can't possibly shift smoother than an automatic no matter how good you are. But, I love a manual, makes you feel like you are part of the car and can feel the experience of driving....as opposed to just guiding 2 tons along. I just try to avoid getting a broken arm or leg - that's my big worry.
But I understand the reality of the market--few people want to shift, and today an auto gets the same mpg as a manual, and sometimes even better.
The thing about automatics is that they are much netter in real heavy traffic. As for automatics getting better mileage, that's mainly due to many manuals being tuned to be far more sporty than the automatics. Almost all of Fords manuals get better mileage than their automatic counterparts. But cars like the Civic get better mileage with the automatic, but that's because the manual is tuned for more sportier driving than the auto.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
well, i might disagree with them being "better". Easier maybe, but notbetter.
ATs have a issue with creep, and many are still too on/off for sluggish traffic (where you are kinda mostly moving).Not all traffic is sit for 2 minutes, and creap forward with your foot ont he brake,
Hi! Welcome to this thread. I'm not sure if this will help you or not, but I had a car transported from Arizona to North Carolina last summer for $1,500. This was not dealer connected. My niece was moving to Italy and wanted us to keep her car for a year. I'm just offering this tip in case you wanted to purchase from far away, but the dealer didn't want to deliver the car.
Isellhondas will respond and answer all of your questions. You can take his advice to the bank. The guys here are very trustworthy. Good luck.
You scale fences and cross frozen fields in the dark? You're in good shape for an OLDfarmer. While I am not a big fan of cell phones, it does pay to have one with you. I am amazed that the lady stopped to assist you. That's just like my wife who chased her mugger into the woods at night. She gave no thought as to the possible consequences. In your case, I think that the good Lord was watching over both of you.
I don't know how much the bank will give a person for my advise but thanks for the compliment.
It's possible that manuals sell better in other parts of the country but here in the Seattle area, we have lots of traffic and LOTS of hills.
When I get a customer who insists on a manual, it's usually a Civic or a Fit buyer but evne these are very slow sellers. As used cars, it's hard to find people to buy them.
Isell, you are supposed to answer the question about ordering from the website. link title Look at Post 48236 and give our new poster your excellent opinion.
The tragedy for people who love manuals is that Honda makes the best around--equal to anything by BMW, and better than anyone else but BMW.
I agree, which is why I'm driving an '08 Acura TSX, with the 6-speed manual. Most of our family drives Honda products, and several are manual-transmission-equipped.
I've driven a '65 MGB over 100K miles, a couple of Datsuns (before they morphed into Nissan) even farther and two Miatas, all with manuals. The MGB linkage was by far the best, but it was a 4-speed with a non-synchro low. Overall, the TSX transmission is the best of the lot. A Fuller RT9509 behind a 350 Cummins is in the mix too, but as you might expect, not in the running.
If that dealer still has a 2009 Accord Navi with a five speed, he would probably do a dance on his parking lot to make it go away.
I didn't realize that Honda was phasing out the production of EXL and above models in manuals but it wouldn't surprise me. Why build a car that very few people want?
I would caution you that if you buy one of these you will have a VERYdifficult car to sell down the road. If you keep your cars forever, this won't be a problem.
Ha ha sounds like my van. I'm thinking of nicknaming it "The Grinder". The synchros on my school bus are better. Still it can be fun shifting even an old hooptie. I'd like to try it on something like a BMW, just once.
Every kid should learn how to shift. My son missed out on a part-time job at a parking garage in high-school because he couldn't. I would have taught him but no one owned or even rented them.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Well try sit for 30 seconds then move forward at 20-40 MPH for a few seconds then stop for 30 seconds and do it again over and over again. With that auto is much better than rowing through the gears all the way to work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree with the stick in traffic being better for me. I used to have a nasty commute in western Washington and a manual was much easier for the reasons stickguy mentions.
I never understood the whole leg cramp issue. No one ever complains about leg cramps in their right leg and that gets used much more than the left.... in a manual or auto.
And as isell and I have discussed here before, I'm one of those "odd ducks" who has an Accord EX-L w/navi... and an I-4 manual. Great car. So sad that Honda is getting rid of sticks in the high-end trimlines. I'll have to look elsewhere in a few years.
I also agree - stick = better, but I know we are a weird group. I think I have mentioned before that I keep my cars at least 10 years, and I have never had any problems selling my old ones myself - maybe takes a few more days, but that's it. Even people who are not sure they want a stick still look at them and consider buying, because I keep my cars meticulously maintained. I think the condition of my cars partly compensates for them being a manual for some people.
FWIW, I have a 2007 5 speed manual Camry and a 2010 6 speed manual Camry.
Thanks to isell and everyone else for the insights. The end of the manual seems to be coming up a little faster than I thought. Doubt we'll buy another EXL navi manual, but it's true we do tend to keep our cars a long time unless they're lemons...
The other things that's coming to an end is hydraulic steering. My current Accord has it, but the next generation of Accord probably won't. Electric steering saves a bit on weight, complexity, and cost, but gives less of a feel for the road it appears. Most other cars already have it...
My own pesonal opinion is to buy the car you really like. Just as you want a manual tranny, there will be someone who will want to buy it when it is used. Might even make it more valuable because it will be a rare find.
You enjoy shifting, and you will miss it, it won't be the same. Although you really like Hondas, and I can understand that, you might just try a bmw or even better an Audi. I ended up with a bimmer, but I really like the 4 cyl manual Audi. All wheel drive and a turbo engine, and I don't think it has that electronic steering garbage (which I didn't like in a Civic we had to use for awhile - feels like a toy car, zero feel of the road). Good luck and thanks for checking in.
"rare"? Probably not. Unusual, maybe. I would certainly count the odds low that this will be more valuable because it's unusual. As already mentioned, the re-sale value is of minimal concern if the car will be kept by the original owner for many years.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I mean within reason, and do you really want to buy a Bently?
One thing I have learned in life is to spend the extra few bucks and get what you really want......within reason. If I was that concerned about re-sale value I would just get a Toyota. Is that my dream car? No, I would become unhappy with it very quickly (not because it's a bad car, it is just reliable and thrifty transportation), but, I wouldn't get much enjoyment from actually driving it. It will probably cost less to buy the car you want, because you will keep it longer, and enjoy it more while you do have it.
If you buy everything based on resale value or total practicality, you will not buy what you really want and will enjoy. Our friend should go for a manual car if that is what he enjoys, and you should go for the Bently if it is within your budget.
The sun will still come up in the morning, and you will feel much better, every time you go for a drive.
I agree with Driver. Get what you want, even if it costs a little bit more, as long as you stay prudent (and within budget).
I know the hard way that when you settle for something you don't want (aka "cheap out") to save a few $$, or decide to stay mainstream, you blow the expected resale benefits by getting rid of it much sooner, since you hate hit.
If you keep anything for a long time, resale isn't really an issue. But hating what you have every time you see or drive it, that can be a problem!
I originally posted this story over in the Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous topic, but I thought some of the salespeople over here may like to see it:
I've been looking at a 2000 M5 taken in trade by my local BMW dealer. I had it inspected and the PPI gave the car an extremely clean bill of health -it literally needs nothing. So this past Saturday I set up an appointment with my salesperson. First the good news: They offered me decent money for the Mazda; almost exactly what I was hoping for. Now the bad news. Last Monday my salesman told me that the Used Car Manager said to offer me the car for $14000- prior to the PPI(which I was paying for). I said we'd talk once I got the PPI results. It turns out my sales person caught the flu and was out from Tuesday to Thursday. While he was out sick, the UCM took it upon himself to fit the car with four new Michelin Pilot A/S tires and also run the car through the "recondition/detail shop". So now the price is $15500... And thus the car is just about -you guessed it- $1500 over the maximum number my wife and I had agreed upon. I raised my offer to our top number, but no deal So we walked. I'm really not upset with my salesperson(he was left out of the loop and was extremely apologetic) but I am royally ticked off at the UCM. I don't know why he couldn't wait on the PPI to see if I'd take it. Or at the very least tell me that he was about to fit the tires and such(the tires weren't even that bad; they had at least another 5000 miles worth of tread on them). I suspect that the UCM belatedly realized that he screwed up by offering the car to me for $14000, so he's using the tires/reconditioning as an "out". The thing is, over the years we've bought a Pathfinder as well as three BMWs from this dealer group(and given countless sales and service referrals as well) but this situation has left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That is too bad. That sounded like a car that you would really enjoy. I would keep my eye on that car though, you never know. Only really true car guys would be interested in an M that old, you may get it at your price yet.
would keep my eye on that car though, you never know. Only really true car guys would be interested in an M that old, you may get it at your price yet.
That's what I'm thinking. On of my friends in the car biz told me to stand pat, that a nine year old BMW will be hard to finance(unless the buyer has top tier credit) and that most people aren't car shopping at this time of year. In the meantime, I'm going to see how much Carmax will give me for the MS3 and also see if any of my friends might know somebody that wants one.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Of course I was largely agreeing with you. I also meant "within reason," meaning that if the shopper is seeking a manual transmission on a vehicle where MT causes issues with resale value, and resale value is likely to be an important factor to the buyer, then that person needs to weigh "buy what you want NOW" versus "buy what will have a better resale value" and decide which is more important.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Not sure how many of you watch TV on a regular basis, but there is a new show on TNT called 'Men of a Certain Age', which chronicles three men in their mid to late 40's.
One of the primary characters is a car salesman at a Chevy dealership, owned by his father. Three scenes that struck me:
1) Character is late for the 8:30AM sales meeting and is locked out of the conference room 2) Character has trouble closing an older couple, and is 'replaced' with a younger salesman 3) At the end of the first episode last week, the character literally knocks down the younger associate (same one from (2) above) to get an 'up' on a couple who are eyeballing a Corvette
Will be interesting how much of the life of a car salesman they will document as the season unfolds.
Just to play devil's advocate, there may be another side of the story. A reputable dealer will not put a car on the lot with tires that only have a few thousand miles left on them. They do not want a customer to have to buy tires (or pads or rotors) shortly having purchased the vehicle. Was the UCM aware of the extent of your interest? He also may not have wanted to hold an asset off the market for several days if you or the salesman had not communicated with him that you were definitely a buyer. A deposit probably would have kept him from doing any recon. In other words, he was not trying to high gross you, he just wanted his asset ready to sell. The old phrase is money talks, talk walks.
And that's pretty much the philosophy I went in with when I bought our 2008 EXL navi with manual. Had to special order it. Paid something like 26k plus tax, lic, extended warranty, etc. pushed it to 29k. Couldn't believe I'd ever spend that much for a car. And yet, everyday when I get in the darn thing I love it--the seats, the stereo, the bluetooth, the navi (which I use much more than I thought I would), etc. And the car seems right in terms of economy. The engine is powerful, but not over the top. I like power as much as the next guy, but if I can get from 0-60 in about 8 seconds, I feel pretty happy. And to still be able to get 22-24 mpg in the city, and 30-32 on the hwy is about where I want to be.
So, we have a 2008, and that car, knock on plood, has a decade of life left barring accidents. Our other car is a 2002 Accord LX 5 mt. This car runs like a top and needs nothing. In some ways the bare bones nature of this Accord is almost charming compared to the 08 luxobarge Accord.
So, we don't really need a new car. But it seems like in a couple of years I might not even be able to get a manual Accord at all. At least it seems certain that I won't be able to get an EXL navi model with the manual, which feels to me almost like an Acura for a lot less money.
I would be curious to try an Audi A3, Mini Clubman, or something else along those lines....
Anyway, here's what the dealer wrote back on the price of a 2009 Accord exl navi 5mt:
"We have a virtual inventory on our web site...what this means is we show every make and model available from American Honda. I have access to this vehicle if you are flexible with color. However the bottom line price for this vehicle at my invoice is $24,386.00.I welcome the opportunity if any of this information suits your needs as well as your budget."
Good price. About 2k less than we paid for this same model back in 2008. But we don't really need a car, and my wife is agin' it....
That's what's funny. My salesman told the UCM I wanted a PPI and the UCM thought I wanted the dealer to foot the bill- he told my salesman that he "wasn't going to spend $300-400 on an inspection". My salesman explained that I was going to pay for it. How many people that pay for a PPI aren't serious buyers? And anyway, the PPI didn't reveal any problems- so it wasn't like I was using it to grind a few more dollars off the deal.
Now get this: I set up the PPI through my Service Advisor(at the same dealer, BTW), who assigned his most experienced(and nitpicking) tech to the car. The guy spent the better part of a day checking the car out. Care to guess what I was charged for the PPI? In any case, I still think the UCM is a jerk. No way the tires and "reconditioning"(on a car that checked out 100%) amount to an extra $1500; I'd say $750 tops.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
While he was out sick, the UCM took it upon himself to fit the car with four new Michelin Pilot A/S tires and also run the car through the "recondition/detail shop". So now the price is $15500...
the tires weren't even that bad; they had at least another 5000 miles worth of tread on them
Since you’ve already invested money in the PPI and if your luck is like mine, even though your friend said to wait, there will be 3 or more wives that want to surprise their husbands with a new toy for Christmas and then you’ll be starting all over again. So, I would deduct 5000K miles worth from those Michelin’s and up your offer accordingly unless you are adamantly opposed to those tires (which I have read good reports about) and would never consider them as replacements.
Just trying to help, so that we will hear about the great track times you’re going to get with this M5.
Good luck,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I read thru this thread, not many replies to a very interesting question... and something everyone can or will eventually relate to. About 14 years ago I took my wifes Plymouth Acclaim to a Big O tire store, as the wheels were making a wierd noise. They replaced an expensive part on each wheel (can't recall the part), then came out and said the part switch out did not solve the problem. I flipped my wig a bit about having to pay $400 for something that wasn't fixed. They agreed to put the old parts back on the car and didn't charge me anything. Ended up selling the car about 6 months after that.
You pay a high diagnostics fee to have the car properly evaluated, and not guesstimated. So, if the car is not fixed accordingly then I think the consumer shouldn't have to pay for the "non repair" work. If the dealership or mechanic says it could be this or that, and the only way to find the problem is to replace parts, then it is on the consumer whether he wants to go that route or not.
Salespeople, how do your service departments usually handle this situation?
this vehicle at my invoice is $24,386.00.I welcome the opportunity if any of this information suits your needs as well as your budget." Good price. About 2k less than we paid for this same model back in 2008. But we don't really need a car
Thanks for the update. It sounds like a great car and a great deal, but another important rule I have is, if you like the car you have, and it is running fine, don't trade it in unless you can easily afford to....or unless your needs change (like you get a good job with a 50 mile commute so you need a newer more reliable car, or you are going into business for yourself and you need a truck or a van).
However, if the 02 Honda has a few breakdowns and needs $500+ repairs 2 times in a year, I think it is time to start looking. I think it becomes a downward spiral at that point and it is better to cut your losses.
If you ever do try an Audi try an A4, I don't think it is much more money, but gives the feeling of a lot more car.
the tires alone are over $950 from tirerack prior to shipping, mounting and balancing. one of your buddies on 'roundel' in probably going to buy it out from under you if you posted over there.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Why don't you put in an offer and see what they say? Account for the fact that you paid for the inspection out of your own pocket, and what you think the tires are worth and go from there.
not only that, but since the car was PPI'd, the dealer now knows what he has. i really think what was done was to provide the best the car could be driving off the lot. a friend of mine did pretty much just did the same thing. maybe he brought up the tire replacement issue ahead of the inspection. don't know when, but he negotiated the new tires, at additional cost, into the sale somewhere along the way. one more thing, detailing the car should not be extra, so i think there is still some room to negotiate. the car needed tires and the dealer put on some good ones. not too much to complain about there. got a ride in a dinan modified M5 a couple of times. not too shabby.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Well, isell, if it was up to just me I think I might well buy--if the price was right.
But, on a decision as big as this my wife needs to agree. She feels almost like you do about manuals--she can take em or leave em when when it comes down to it.
So, for me getting the last of the manuals is a compelling reason to buy, but for her not so much. I thought I might budge her, but so far not much headway.
And, as you know, a well maintained 2002 Accord with only 60k most likely has *a lot* of life left in it. Until it hits 10 years/100k it's pretty much just a change the oil kind of car. It does lack safety features that newer cars have, and my wife is very keen on safety features--and so that's the place where I might make some headway. But again, it's not like the 02 is a deathtrap.
If the price was just so amazing that it couldn't be believed, maybe she'd budge...but then again maybe not.
Comments
Yes, this is frustrating and is a problem that happens all the time. If you did complain they will say, those parts needed replacing any way.
But, I would talk it over with the owner or General Manager. They might give you a discount. I would also hint that if they want your business next time (and the business of every one you know), they should resolve the problem. I also hint and will actually write to a consumer advocate on TV or the newspaper. Although head office is rarely of much help, you might try emailing them with your complaint.
I get so upset I just get to the point where I would get rid of it, but that's me. Our 95 Volvo couldn't be fixed properly by 3 different dealers so we traded it in early and made arrangements to payoff the lease. I find once you reach a total of $500 or $800 in repairs, and aren't really getting ahead, you are probably better off getting a new car with a warranty.
Is there a chance you will buy another Nissan?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I found out from Honda's web site that it appears they are phasing out this model. Manuals on Accords from here on out, it looks like, will only be offered on LX and EX cloth models. In other words, soon you won't be able to get the car I have. And I love the car for many reasons, and crazy though it seems I'm vaguely considering the idea of getting another. My wife is against it for good reason--our other car is a 2002 Accord LX manual with only 60k miles, new tires, and plenty of life left.
Anyway, I was using the Edmunds inventory function to find out if any dealers still have any EXL navi 5MTs in stock. It appeared there was a dealer in SC that had some. In fact, when I went to their site and looked in their inventory, it looked like they had several exl navi 5mts for both 2009 and 2010. I couldn't figure it out. That's such a rare model that few people want that it didn't seem possible that a dealer would stock more than one of them. Now I'm thinking that this inventory is not just for this dealer, but for every dealer within 500 miles or something. Here's a link to the inventory (hope that's allowed). My question is, how do you figure out where these cars actually are, or can you?
Anyone in the know about how these Honda inventory web sites work?
http://www.dickbrookshonda.com/Virtual_inv.html
My guess is that at this point most dealers would be pretty eager to get rid of a 2009 exl navi manual, but maybe I'm wrong about that...
At least your van has only one problem. Mine keeps coming up with new ways to drain my wallet.
I thought I had fixed every possible part on it when it left me stranded on the interstate at 5 am after dying suddenly. Since I had no cell phone I had to cross a frozen field and scale a fence to get into an industrial park in hopes of finding help. A nice woman driving through this otherwise deserted area was kind enough to stop and call some help for me. That was something of a shock because I would not have stopped for some grizzled old coot running through the dark at that hour. I guess there are nice people left in the world.
I climbed back over the fence and a few minutes later the troopers arrived and called me a tow. We spent the time chatting about cars and traffic laws until the tow truck came.
After all that fuss it turned out that when the previous owner replaced the motor they had reconnected the coil wire backwards (never knew there was any difference between the ends) and over the years it had worked it's way loose. Couple of bucks to fix it. Whew.
Now I bring a cell when I drive it. I'm too old to be scaling fences in the dark like Batman.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
You have improved your social life since buying that van. You had a nice chat with the fellow you bought the van from, you met a nice lady in the industrial park, the troopers, and some nice mechanics.
Plus, every ride is an adventure :surprise:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I bet isellhondas could tell you what you need to know. I seem to remember him saying ANY manual tranny is a dog on the market. If your inventory info is correct the dealer should be begging you to take it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Hopefully, you will get a reply from isellhondas, soon, he can probably help. We went over how rare Honda manuals are, and how very few people buy them, so few dealers carry them, they tend to sit on the lot for a long time. While waiting check some of the posts around Nov 18 2009.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I just pulled a "locate" and there are zero five speed EXL or NAVI's in our two state district. Stores don't order any because they simply do not sell.
On the LX models, there is ONE in Washington and we happen to have it.
If Honda were to drop Accord manuals, it wouldn't suprise me one bit.
They are pretty saleproof but as new and used cars.
Isell--any chance you looked at that inventory link I posted. It's strange because it lists over 1000 cars. I assume that's for some multi-state region? How do I tell which dealers actually have these cars?
And what happens if I decide I might like to try for one of these exl navi manuals--if the price is right, that is? Is there a more or less standard price for having a dealer from a few hundred miles away drive this car to Louisville, where none seem to be available? Or, is that negotiated on a case by case basis? And should I try working with the dealer that currently has the car, or with my local dealer? It's made more problematic because the salesperson I'd forged a relationship with at my local Honda dealer, and had bought two Accords from in 5 years, suddenly retired in early 2009 as the recession took hold...
Anyway, thanks again.
I am sure isell will get back to you....he always comes through with good reliable information.
You are right about people not wanting to shift any more. When we bought our 2008 bmws, both 6 speed standards, the salesmaen said the number of standards sold is going down each year. Even for bmw which was as high as 40% manual just a few years ago. But, most seniors don't want to shift gears, most teenagers don't want to learn and don't need to because their family cars are automatic, many people can't talk on phones or text with a manual.
When I was taught how to drive I was told if you shift right, the shifting should be smoother than an automatic....and that was my goal. Today, you can't possibly shift smoother than an automatic no matter how good you are. But, I love a manual, makes you feel like you are part of the car and can feel the experience of driving....as opposed to just guiding 2 tons along. I just try to avoid getting a broken arm or leg - that's my big worry.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The thing about automatics is that they are much netter in real heavy traffic. As for automatics getting better mileage, that's mainly due to many manuals being tuned to be far more sporty than the automatics. Almost all of Fords manuals get better mileage than their automatic counterparts. But cars like the Civic get better mileage with the automatic, but that's because the manual is tuned for more sportier driving than the auto.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
ATs have a issue with creep, and many are still too on/off for sluggish traffic (where you are kinda mostly moving).Not all traffic is sit for 2 minutes, and creap forward with your foot ont he brake,
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Isellhondas will respond and answer all of your questions. You can take his advice to the bank. The guys here are very trustworthy. Good luck.
Richard
Richard
It's possible that manuals sell better in other parts of the country but here in the Seattle area, we have lots of traffic and LOTS of hills.
When I get a customer who insists on a manual, it's usually a Civic or a Fit buyer but evne these are very slow sellers. As used cars, it's hard to find people to buy them.
link title
Look at Post 48236 and give our new poster your excellent opinion.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I agree, which is why I'm driving an '08 Acura TSX, with the 6-speed manual. Most of our family drives Honda products, and several are manual-transmission-equipped.
I've driven a '65 MGB over 100K miles, a couple of Datsuns (before they morphed into Nissan) even farther and two Miatas, all with manuals. The MGB linkage was by far the best, but it was a 4-speed with a non-synchro low. Overall, the TSX transmission is the best of the lot. A Fuller RT9509 behind a 350 Cummins is in the mix too, but as you might expect, not in the running.
If that dealer still has a 2009 Accord Navi with a five speed, he would probably do a dance on his parking lot to make it go away.
I didn't realize that Honda was phasing out the production of EXL and above models in manuals but it wouldn't surprise me. Why build a car that very few people want?
I would caution you that if you buy one of these you will have a VERYdifficult car to sell down the road. If you keep your cars forever, this won't be a problem.
Ha ha sounds like my van. I'm thinking of nicknaming it "The Grinder". The synchros on my school bus are better. Still it can be fun shifting even an old hooptie. I'd like to try it on something like a BMW, just once.
Every kid should learn how to shift. My son missed out on a part-time job at a parking garage in high-school because he couldn't. I would have taught him but no one owned or even rented them.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
sitting is easy. Just throw it in neutral, and wait. Easier than in an AT since you don''t have to hold it against creaping.
when you move, if it is slow, you can easily just shuffle along in 1st or 2nd if you pay attention. When you stop, back in neutral.
unless you have a stiff clutch, or literally spend hours straight every day doing it, not really a big deal.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Creep is really a non-issue....
I never understood the whole leg cramp issue. No one ever complains about leg cramps in their right leg and that gets used much more than the left.... in a manual or auto.
And as isell and I have discussed here before, I'm one of those "odd ducks" who has an Accord EX-L w/navi... and an I-4 manual. Great car. So sad that Honda is getting rid of sticks in the high-end trimlines. I'll have to look elsewhere in a few years.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
FWIW, I have a 2007 5 speed manual Camry and a 2010 6 speed manual Camry.
The other things that's coming to an end is hydraulic steering. My current Accord has it, but the next generation of Accord probably won't. Electric steering saves a bit on weight, complexity, and cost, but gives less of a feel for the road it appears. Most other cars already have it...
Again, thanks for your answers...
My own pesonal opinion is to buy the car you really like. Just as you want a manual tranny, there will be someone who will want to buy it when it is used. Might even make it more valuable because it will be a rare find.
You enjoy shifting, and you will miss it, it won't be the same. Although you really like Hondas, and I can understand that, you might just try a bmw or even better an Audi. I ended up with a bimmer, but I really like the 4 cyl manual Audi. All wheel drive and a turbo engine, and I don't think it has that electronic steering garbage (which I didn't like in a Civic we had to use for awhile - feels like a toy car, zero feel of the road).
Good luck and thanks for checking in.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"rare"? Probably not. Unusual, maybe. I would certainly count the odds low that this will be more valuable because it's unusual. As already mentioned, the re-sale value is of minimal concern if the car will be kept by the original owner for many years.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I mean within reason, and do you really want to buy a Bently?
One thing I have learned in life is to spend the extra few bucks and get what you really want......within reason. If I was that concerned about re-sale value I would just get a Toyota. Is that my dream car? No, I would become unhappy with it very quickly (not because it's a bad car, it is just reliable and thrifty transportation), but, I wouldn't get much enjoyment from actually driving it. It will probably cost less to buy the car you want, because you will keep it longer, and enjoy it more while you do have it.
If you buy everything based on resale value or total practicality, you will not buy what you really want and will enjoy. Our friend should go for a manual car if that is what he enjoys, and you should go for the Bently if it is within your budget.
The sun will still come up in the morning, and you will feel much better, every time you go for a drive.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I know the hard way that when you settle for something you don't want (aka "cheap out") to save a few $$, or decide to stay mainstream, you blow the expected resale benefits by getting rid of it much sooner, since you hate hit.
If you keep anything for a long time, resale isn't really an issue. But hating what you have every time you see or drive it, that can be a problem!
Life is too short. Enjoy what you can.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I've been looking at a 2000 M5 taken in trade by my local BMW dealer. I had it inspected and the PPI gave the car an extremely clean bill of health -it literally needs nothing. So this past Saturday I set up an appointment with my salesperson.
First the good news: They offered me decent money for the Mazda; almost exactly
what I was hoping for.
Now the bad news. Last Monday my salesman told me that the Used Car Manager said to offer me the car for $14000- prior to the PPI(which I was paying for). I said we'd talk once I got the PPI results. It turns out my sales person caught the flu and was out from Tuesday to Thursday. While he was out sick, the UCM took it upon himself to fit the car with four new Michelin Pilot A/S tires and also run
the car through the "recondition/detail shop". So now the price is $15500... And thus the car is just about -you guessed it- $1500 over the maximum number my wife and I had agreed upon. I raised my offer to our top number, but no deal So we walked. I'm really not upset with my salesperson(he was left out of the loop and was extremely apologetic) but I am royally ticked off at the UCM. I don't know why he couldn't wait on the PPI to see if I'd take it. Or at the very least tell me that he was about to fit the tires and such(the tires weren't even that bad; they had at least another 5000 miles worth of tread on them). I suspect that the UCM belatedly realized that he screwed up by offering the car to me for $14000, so he's using the tires/reconditioning as an "out". The thing is, over the years we've bought a Pathfinder as well as three BMWs from this dealer group(and given countless sales and service referrals as well) but this situation has left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That's what I'm thinking. On of my friends in the car biz told me to stand pat, that a nine year old BMW will be hard to finance(unless the buyer has top tier credit) and that most people aren't car shopping at this time of year. In the meantime, I'm going to see how much Carmax will give me for the MS3 and also see if any of my friends might know somebody that wants one.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
One of the primary characters is a car salesman at a Chevy dealership, owned by his father. Three scenes that struck me:
1) Character is late for the 8:30AM sales meeting and is locked out of the conference room
2) Character has trouble closing an older couple, and is 'replaced' with a younger salesman
3) At the end of the first episode last week, the character literally knocks down the younger associate (same one from (2) above) to get an 'up' on a couple who are eyeballing a Corvette
Will be interesting how much of the life of a car salesman they will document as the season unfolds.
And that's pretty much the philosophy I went in with when I bought our 2008 EXL navi with manual. Had to special order it. Paid something like 26k plus tax, lic, extended warranty, etc. pushed it to 29k. Couldn't believe I'd ever spend that much for a car. And yet, everyday when I get in the darn thing I love it--the seats, the stereo, the bluetooth, the navi (which I use much more than I thought I would), etc. And the car seems right in terms of economy. The engine is powerful, but not over the top. I like power as much as the next guy, but if I can get from 0-60 in about 8 seconds, I feel pretty happy. And to still be able to get 22-24 mpg in the city, and 30-32 on the hwy is about where I want to be.
So, we have a 2008, and that car, knock on plood, has a decade of life left barring accidents. Our other car is a 2002 Accord LX 5 mt. This car runs like a top and needs nothing. In some ways the bare bones nature of this Accord is almost charming compared to the 08 luxobarge Accord.
So, we don't really need a new car. But it seems like in a couple of years I might not even be able to get a manual Accord at all. At least it seems certain that I won't be able to get an EXL navi model with the manual, which feels to me almost like an Acura for a lot less money.
I would be curious to try an Audi A3, Mini Clubman, or something else along those lines....
Anyway, here's what the dealer wrote back on the price of a 2009 Accord exl navi 5mt:
"We have a virtual inventory on our web site...what this means is we show every make and model available from American Honda. I have access to this vehicle if you are flexible with color. However the bottom line price for this vehicle at my invoice is $24,386.00.I welcome the opportunity if any of this information suits your needs as well as your budget."
Good price. About 2k less than we paid for this same model back in 2008. But we don't really need a car, and my wife is agin' it....
Again, thanks all for your helpful thoughts.
That's what's funny. My salesman told the UCM I wanted a PPI and the UCM thought I wanted the dealer to foot the bill- he told my salesman that he "wasn't going to spend $300-400 on an inspection". My salesman explained that I was going to pay for it. How many people that pay for a PPI aren't serious buyers? And anyway, the PPI didn't reveal any problems- so it wasn't like I was using it to grind a few more dollars off the deal.
Now get this: I set up the PPI through my Service Advisor(at the same dealer, BTW), who assigned his most experienced(and nitpicking) tech to the car. The guy spent the better part of a day checking the car out. Care to guess what I was charged for the PPI?
In any case, I still think the UCM is a jerk. No way the tires and "reconditioning"(on a car that checked out 100%) amount to an extra $1500; I'd say $750 tops.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
the car through the "recondition/detail shop". So now the price is $15500...
the tires weren't even that bad; they had at least another 5000 miles worth of tread on them
Since you’ve already invested money in the PPI and if your luck is like mine, even though your friend said to wait, there will be 3 or more wives that want to surprise their husbands with a new toy for Christmas and then you’ll be starting all over again. So, I would deduct 5000K miles worth from those Michelin’s and up your offer accordingly unless you are adamantly opposed to those tires (which I have read good reports about) and would never consider them as replacements.
Just trying to help, so that we will hear about the great track times you’re going to get with this M5.
Good luck,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You pay a high diagnostics fee to have the car properly evaluated, and not guesstimated. So, if the car is not fixed accordingly then I think the consumer shouldn't have to pay for the "non repair" work. If the dealership or mechanic says it could be this or that, and the only way to find the problem is to replace parts, then it is on the consumer whether he wants to go that route or not.
Salespeople, how do your service departments usually handle this situation?
Good price. About 2k less than we paid for this same model back in 2008. But we don't really need a car
Thanks for the update. It sounds like a great car and a great deal, but another important rule I have is, if you like the car you have, and it is running fine, don't trade it in unless you can easily afford to....or unless your needs change (like you get a good job with a 50 mile commute so you need a newer more reliable car, or you are going into business for yourself and you need a truck or a van).
However, if the 02 Honda has a few breakdowns and needs $500+ repairs 2 times in a year, I think it is time to start looking. I think it becomes a downward spiral at that point and it is better to cut your losses.
If you ever do try an Audi try an A4, I don't think it is much more money, but gives the feeling of a lot more car.
Good luck and thanks for sharing your experience.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I only mentioned resale value because this is something I have to deal with on a daily basis.
People should buy what they are happy with but they need to know about the downside too.
You mean after all of that, you really aren't in the market??
one of your buddies on 'roundel' in probably going to buy it out from under you if you posted over there.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
i really think what was done was to provide the best the car could be driving off the lot.
a friend of mine did pretty much just did the same thing.
maybe he brought up the tire replacement issue ahead of the inspection.
don't know when, but he negotiated the new tires, at additional cost, into the sale somewhere along the way.
one more thing, detailing the car should not be extra, so i think there is still some room to negotiate.
the car needed tires and the dealer put on some good ones.
not too much to complain about there.
got a ride in a dinan modified M5 a couple of times.
not too shabby.
But, on a decision as big as this my wife needs to agree. She feels almost like you do about manuals--she can take em or leave em when when it comes down to it.
So, for me getting the last of the manuals is a compelling reason to buy, but for her not so much. I thought I might budge her, but so far not much headway.
And, as you know, a well maintained 2002 Accord with only 60k most likely has *a lot* of life left in it. Until it hits 10 years/100k it's pretty much just a change the oil kind of car. It does lack safety features that newer cars have, and my wife is very keen on safety features--and so that's the place where I might make some headway. But again, it's not like the 02 is a deathtrap.
If the price was just so amazing that it couldn't be believed, maybe she'd budge...but then again maybe not.