I think that J. D. Powers data shows that Buicks are better cars for the first 3 years of ownership than Toyota's. While this does not imply that the next three years will continue in the same fashion, I would expect Buick to not become much worse than a Toyota.
J. D. Power is respected by the auto industry. Consumer Reports is liked by their readers. I think that they (CR) are a joke, but that is just me.
I think of CR the same as movie critics. You need a lot of indepth info to judge flaws from brand to brand. If you get a black ball for electronics, does that mean you might have had a glitch that switched your radio on your Ford or that you lights are screwed up on your Audi? Not all electrical glitches are the same.
I also am beginning to hate to read car magazines.
In the last comparison of the Vette and the Cobra, they judge the back seat (Vette has none=0). That's not an issue in this comparison. Then they add arbitraty numbers at the end for "fun to drive" and "gotta have it factor". Just give me the facts. No Mustang fan is gonna drive a vette and no Vette fan will drive a mustang. The gotta have it factor does not apply.
A few years back I was in the mood for something and my three choices were a Lightning F150, an Audi TT and a BMW 330Ci. What did they have in common, nothing more than I liked them all. I got the Audi, probably would have liked any of the others better. It didn't last long for me. The point is I don't need the writers impressionary opinions just the performance facts, especially when they are comparing two vehicles that have hugh loyal followers.
Seriously, would a 500hp Mustang Cobra NOT be fun to drive? (Even it you were a Vette fan)
Connecting this power to the Camry's front wheels is an all-new six-speed automatic transmission that can be manually shifted or left in full auto mode where, according to Toyota, it will learn the driver's driving style and pick gears accordingly.
That's an insurmountable problem, then. A $3000 to fix problem in addition, when it goes in for repairs. AND it'll do the wrong thing at least half of the time - Toyota should ditch this monstrosity and get back to basics.
Mu biggest concern with GM and Ford products on the long term issues are with the opitional do-dads. Nothing is more irritating than having a loaded MarkVII and the windows don't work or roof won't slide. These things can cost more than a blown engine.
Short term they offer great content for the price but I'm back to Toyotas again (at least for a while)
But that is the point, we do NOT know the sample size. I think too, that the sample sizes should be proportional to the actual production/sales. In other words, are the subscribers to Consumer Reports really representative of the US as a whole? I think that they are a subset of the US and not really representative of anything. I also think that their reviews are a joke.
That's not really the point here. CR does two distinctly different things, it (a) rates cars and (b) conducts a reliability survey.
Naturally, the ratings are opinionated, based upon those factors CR favors and disfavors, but the survey is nuetral, based upon reader's responses. (The one area that these converge is that CR will not recommend a car that gets reliability predictions of "below average" or "well below average".)
In the case of the former, you can decide whether or not you share CR's perspective. The latter is a data sampling of survey respondents, not related to CR's opinions or judgments. Two different animals, and not quite comparable.
But I consider Consumer Reports readers to be below average. Some years back someone I knew then bought an American Motors car simply because Consumer Reports said that was the car to buy :P If this is the typical CR reader, it's garbage.
I think too, that the sample sizes should be proportional to the actual production/sales.
There's no reason to believe that. An adequate sample size is not determined by total sales, but by the number of data points in the sample. If CR surveys a fair number owners of a given car (at least 30), that should be sufficient to get a decent answer, no matter how many units were sold.
The one flaw to CR that I see is that it doesn't provide the margin of error for each nameplate, which will vary from one car to another because the sample sizes aren't the same for each car, so they may not all be directly comparable. Those nameplates with greater numbers of responses should provide more accurate results than those with fewer responses, meaning the data for the bread-and-butter cars should be better than for the rest. But still, if the sample sizes are large enough (and CR won't report results with insufficient numbers of responses), then they should all be good enough.
Well, the sample size should either be proportional to sales, OR: they should be the same size. I also think 30 cars in a sample is much too small. I think something like 1000 to 10,000 is better. In the case where, for example, Rolls Royce, sells about 100 annually, then the whole production should be included or at least 50%. In the case of Rolls owners, one would probably do well to get a response from 50% of the owners.
Well, the sample size should either be proportional to sales
No, it doesn't need to be. Take a stats course, and you will see why this doesn't matter. You can derive accurate data from small samples, and the relative proportion of the size of the sample doesn't negate the validity of the survey. No need for anywhere near 1,000 responses to get a good result -- Gallup can do a public opinion with half that number, yet one that projects the views of tens of millions of people with reasonable accuracy.
In any case, there's no reason to believe that the CR survey results will favor one nameplate over another. The same questionnaire goes to everyone, and the questions are neutral. There's no reason for the survey to favor one car over another, unless the better car simply has fewer defects or problems.
I don't care. If you make statements without support, I will continue to ask for evidence. The readers can judge for themselves whether to believe accusations that include no support.
You may believe whatever you like. I think that J. D. Power's results are accurate, whether they support Consumers Reports or not.
As far as Consumers Reports goes, the issue for me is this: do they get 90% of their subscribers to respond on an annual basis so that we can assume that the reponses are not just from some disgruntled owners? Does anyone know the answer to that?
CR sells dots on a chart. JD sells the actual data from the consumer in a data dump and in charts / spreadsheets that can be analyzed. Again I have no idea why CR does not agree with JD and neither do the OEM's.
Why would JD fudge the data when all the OEM's buy it no matter what the results? If they got cought they would be out of business (as would CR of they got cought).
I agree with you on CR. However there must be some reason why CR and JD do not have the same results in their quantitative surveys. All I can figure is that the JD is a sampling of all types of people from all walks of life while CR is only sampling their own readers. What is different between CR readers and the general populace I do not know.
BUT, we will soon have new IQS2 results with a new survey. We will see. Perhaps it will be closer to CR????
The only way I use a survey is if a wide majority say this car has no problems, or a vast majority say this car is a lemon, you have some useful information. One car rated slightly higher than another means nothing. If both JD and CR give a car an excellent rating, it probably is. A few black dots or red dots might not mean much, but if there is a whole row of black dots, you can assume it is a poor buy. Surveys like statistics can mean all kinds of things, but overall, it can be a useful guide.
However there must be some reason why CR and JD do not have the same results in their quantitative surveys.
I've done random comparisons between the two, and I find that they tend to correlate fairly often. (It would be highly inefficient for JDP to survey millions of people at random, most of whom don't have cars to fit the survey scope.) We should remember that JDP does surveys only at the 90-day and 3-year marks, whereas CR reviews over the last several (six?) model years, so there may be some difference because of the different survey periods.
I'm not sure where JDP gets its respondent list, but my guess is that it comes from the automakers themselves who are paying for the data. I have to wonder whether automakers may omit those who prove disgruntled in their own surveys.
One car rated slightly higher than another means nothing. If both JD and CR give a car an excellent rating, it probably is.
A few black dots or red dots might not mean much, but if there is a whole row of black dots, you can assume it is a poor buy.
Absolutely agree, modest differences may not mean anything at all, and may sometimes be attributely largely to the margin of error, rather than real differences. Data has to be used in context with the understanding that there can be some degree of error, but those imperfections don't mean that the data has no value.
The readers are not typical of buyers of all type of cars in proportion to their representation in the population. The readers don't respond in proportion to the cars they do have. The values of the readers are not typical of people in the US who, mostly, are buying cars to get from point A to B--which I believe you posted many posts back. It's a nice convenience survey but doesn't have 1000+ people for oh say a sample of Park Avenues who represent a cross section of Park AVenue owners who respond and give the data necessary for a +/- 5% error amount.
The people who do respond have a reason, whether it's a negative reason or not, for spending the time to fill out the papers. Based on my opinion of who does subscribe to CR anymore, I don't believe their subscriber base is typical of all buyers, and that's my opinion. Noone I know now subscribes. I used to know one person who did.
JD Powers samples from all the buyers either based on registration data from manufacturers or from the BMVs in various states. I had either two or three vehicles for which I received JD Powers surveys. For many others I did not.
Think about how may of your friends subscribe to CR. And do any of them respond to the surveys.
All CR would have to do is publish data about their number of respondents for each car model and their knowledge of the demographics of those respondents to give more credibility to their surveys.
Lincoln Town Car does OK in Consumer Reports survey, but that is where it ends. The LS, going some years back is gonna be a costly car to own. The Town Car is more like the Crown Vic = reliable and durable. If you do not mind driving something that wide, the cars are OK. Our streets and parking lot slots are too narrow for easy navigation of these large ships.
I see that Cadillac look pretty reliable for a few years, but must turn costly there after. That is if you believe in the Consumer Reports data. Why don't people look at the rest of the JD Powers data on cars available on Edmund's site. Goes back more than 3 years. -Loren
I'm not sure where JDP gets its respondent list, but my guess is that it comes from the automakers themselves who are paying for the data. I have to wonder whether automakers may omit those who prove disgruntled in their own surveys.
i dont remember anyone asking for your guess, you seem to be so insistant on any who post to back it up with proof where is your proof on this?
>i dont remember anyone asking for your guess, you seem to be so insistant on any who post to back it up with proof where is your proof on this?
I'm don't understand for certain what you are questioning. I posted my opinion but someone always demands proof of everyone else on their opinion or facts. Are you saying you agree or disagree with me.
As for anyone asking, I didn't ask for your comment but I'll politely respond assuming your meaning is clear.
You are free to look up your own proof. Prove it's wrong. I am free to post my opinion just as you are. Please check the Rules of the Road or contact a real host. Have a good day...
They tested the 3800III in the CXL rather than performance Northstar in CCR suspension CSX model Lucerne against a 300 with the top engine instead of the rental 2.7 (does Chrysler also sell to rental fleets-shame on them) and against the Montego constant variable tranny instead of the 500.
Then they complain about the slalom ability of the car. You'd think a mag that has Masserati and Audi and Ford GT and Corvette and Vette SO6 -- all performance cars that most people don't buy but many love to read about and dream about would have picked the performance version of the Lucerne. Unless they wanted it to be soft and comfortable riding for people like (me).
Motor Trend... How many cup holders does the Lucerne have. With more than 4 it could have very easily ourscored the Vette overall. No wait, the Vette has a bigger trunk.
All things they consider yet seldom having impact on the people considering the particular car.
I browse these issues of car mags at my weekly doctor office visit. I don't recognize most of these car names in the mag. F430 vs Gallardo? Ferrari? I was stunned to see a Lotus Esprite at the local large annual car show Saturday evening. I don't think we have dealers for most of these cars in Dayton, Ohio. Is that because we have too many GM/Delphi plants here?
Most buyers want a car for travel from A to B. We like to read about and talk about everyone else's car having to live up to the quality of a ???(insert favorite example perfect car here), but in reality we aren't going to shop for one, new or used.
Do I understand my June MT that the civic si and vw gti both have electric steering. That's awful; people critize GM Malibu and Ion for having electric. That's going to put GM down the dumper.
Actually GM will be here in the future. When's a good time to buy GM stock for the ride up? Has pessimism reached a high enough level yet?
Tell Dad not to feel bad ! My cousin and the rest of his co-workers at New Process Gear now owned by Magna Intl. are enjoying their last few months as well paid UAW members.
In 07 when Magna takes the last 20% ownership from DCX and the UAW contract ends they will also go non-union at 1/2 pay and minimal benefits and LIKE it !
The older seniority guys are either taking the buyout or transfering to other DCX plants (Fat chance since so many others are "sittin on the bench" waiting for openings!).
Not too many options for the younger guys with families except for McDs or other low paying work in our depressed area................ :sick:
The problem with JD Powers is that they don't collect 5-6 year reliability data, which is especially critical on the larger more expensive cars, which those of use with more modest means might actually consider as a used car. For instance, a 5 year old E-Class is about $20K - which is a possible option - but there's no real data.
CR, otoh, has lost all credibility with me. Go to their auto guide. Check out the Jeep Cherokee. Notice the above average marks in the back/raw data, but black circles of death in the review? Check out the Avalon/Camry. Notice how there's not a black circle in the transmission category like there should be, what with all of the recalls?
They are weighing the data and/or adding their own bias while not telling us what it is, so it totally invalidates the data. It's basically worthless as well, since the sample size is 100% voluntary, and many more people who have had problems are likely to respond.
Frequency of repairs, coupled with cost of repairs is about all you can go by. Some cars, like older late 90s Benzes and Volvos are tanks - pricey to fix, but hardly ever break. Others, like GM are cheap to fix, but break constantly. Still others like a 4 cylinder Accord with stickshift make the repairman wonder if he's in the right job.
But, yeah - they need to test the best models from GM. It's as if they are purposely trying to start off with a bias goign in. A good example is the constant RX-8 vs whatever hot sportscar that looks like it for $35K reviews.
Okay - you have a $25K sports sedan with semi-hidden rear doors to look sporty - with 8K in options, versus a stripped-down 350Z. DUH. They might as well throw in a BMW 3 series or an IS350 it'd be as valid and fair of a comparison. Yet they do this nonsense with GM all the time.
I've only seen one review of the Lucerne CXS with the good engine and suspension online, out of dozens for the model, and it's the ONLY one that is glowing/a good review. As expected. Part of it is the reviewers, and part of it is GM - they need to sell it as a seperate model or ditch the 3.8L engine and stock suspension entirely.
I am now driving my Malibu Maxx LTZ which I just recently purchased (almost 400 miles on it so far). I love this car, very comfortable, excellent handling, great pickup, decent gas mileage, easy transaction at the dealership. The car looks great in the restyling. The loss of the ugly chrome bar across the front really adds to the look. I have no idea what issues GM has as a corporation, but the Car is awesome, and not that expensive! The stereo sounds fantastic, especially LOUD!
I believe the Camry/Avalon recalls would be this year. Those will be reflected in next years collected data and review of the car. The 2006 was out a few months ago.
New Lucerne is sort of interesting. A poorer mans DTS - interesting. Both the Caddy and the Lucerne may make good used car buys for those wanting a luxury car. Hyundai Azera kinda adds another option in there to think of. Hey, new kid on the block. Say what ya want, the car looks good and gets good reviews. Is this company for real, as in great 4 to 8 year running cars -- anyone's guess on that one. I think many people will still buy a 4 cylinder Accord or Camry for the same price or more than a Sonata, Azera or Lucerne V6. There is the strong belief in the car in respect to reliability and resale value.
I have test driven the Chrysler 300 and it is a good ride. The crazy high doors, with little windows, I am still not too sure about for practicability. It has been a long-long time since I have driven a really big car like a Caddy. I may test a Deville and a CTS used car in the same day. The CTS rear wheel drive sounds good. And the last Cadillac I test drove was a 1979 or 1980, I think. I take it the new ones handle a bit crisper :shades: A Deville or DTS would be interesting to test. The Lucerne may be the real bargain in a year or so used.
Have you noticed all the sporty cars are being discontinued. Gone is the last 4 cylinder RWD - 240SX, and the Prelude, and Celica are no more. The Honda Accord and Civic coupes look OK. The G6 GTP coupe is not bad. Mid-size sporty in RWD is the CTS and that's about it. The Dodge Charger is kinda homely. I am just out of ideas on sporty coupes under $21K. Heck even for thousand more, it is mainly sedans and mostly FWD. This is why I am sort of backing off my original plan of getting a sports car, sporty coupe, or sports sedan. May shoot for a good V6 like the Azera, with luxury or even the Sonata GLS , or in the American cars, something like a used CTS, or Lucerne. Heck, if used, throw in the V8. Test drove the new Stang, but I did not like it as much as I thought I would. Kinda like better interiors and the modern stuff now. Maybe I should try the Mazda6 - said to be the sportiest of the sedans, until you get to the CTS.
If GM had a car like the old Nova or a Camaro, I would be interested in test driving one. The Malibu is just not attractive. Looked at say six Monte Carlos on the lot and none had side air bags. Kinda old school cars anyway, but that has some charm, oddly enough. The Cobalt is too small, I think still looks cheap inside, and the outside is too bland a style. If I get anywhere close to being back in the GM family again, I guess it will be a used Cadillac or Lucerne ( maybe a year end giveaway new car special?)
In new car options, it seems to me so far in looking around, the Hyundai is offering the most for the money. Honda is steady with great resale, the Toyota Camry CE a fairly good value, and Mazda6 possibly a little more fun sedan. I really do not want to return to miniature sized cars, though I had a blast for three years in a Miata. Thank goodness some SUV beast did not quash me flat as a pancake! The Corolla was a good car, but there again not American boy sized (note to self-must diet soon). Unless I decide to spend some extra bucks on a CTS, most other options are FWD cars. Maybe a nice luxury one in mid to larger size. Too bad there is no Chevy Nova or Ford Fairlane these days. Recall those with a V8? -Loren
Yeah the MAXX is more interesting. It has the character missing in the basic Malibu. Sort of a sport wagon thing going on there. I could see where some find that particular style interesting. More zing to it and more function. Glad you like it. -Loren
you seem to be so insistant on any who post to back it up with proof where is your proof on this?
Of course, I'm insistent on proof, otherwise the internet becomes a series of accusations, lies and misstatements. Claims that are false and claims that are accurate and verifiable do not deserve the same weight.
Most of the time, I provide sources that other can verify, but I make occasional guesses and indicate them as such, which makes it clear that I don't claim them to be facts. If you have a data source that shows where JDP gets its respondent list, I'd be happy to see it, so feel free to provide it if you have it.
I did a bit of research, and found this from an old survey:
Sources: the Polk Company’s purchase files (a combination of registration and title record files), the Polk Company’s lease files, manufacturer’s sales records (for states that prohibit the release of registration for market research).
So the automakers do play a role in some aspects of the respondent pool, but some of the pool comes from Polk, which is fair enough.
Interestingly, JD Power surveys 50,000 buyers for a given model year (although surely it doesn't get that many responses), while CR received back about 1,000,000 responses from its last survey. Therefore, CR should be generating higher response rates per nameplate, which would reduce its margin of error and make it more precise as compared to JD Power. Still, both surveys should be useful and reasonably accurate much of the time.
jrhess3, I guess it's good for GM that they still have people out there that think the Maxx "looks great". Depending on how many of you there are then GM may have a chance.
Of course I thought the same thing when American Motors came out with the Pacer and the Matedor (sp?). (My best friends dad bought one of those. Never could figure that out)
I see the Maxx as having a lot of room for hauling stuff and would buy for that purpose. I understand it's being discontinued? I don't understand that purpose. I see several Maxxes around our area being driven by a variety of owners.
Shoot, if I could get a Lucerne CXS for $30K, I'd buy it today! I drove a nice black one when my girlfriend was getting an oil change for her LaCrosse.
I tried to talk her into getting the 3.6, but girlfriend tends to be a cheapskate sometimes, which is good. She has a young girl working for her that maybe makes about $30K a year and is driving a new Acura TL, shops at Lord & Taylor, and even has a personal trainer. Either this young lady is up to her eyeballs in credit card debt or has a sugar daddy.
the Camry comes out (2007) with a much flashier look
Flashy? Feh! Uglier - Aye! Just goes to show Toyota or Honda can put any grotesquery on the market and it would sell. The 2007 Camry looks like a pig with that new snout. I'm tempted to buy one, paint it pink, and fabricate a curly tail to weld to the decklid.
Even the rear of the Camry looks awkward the way the trunk lid is perched on top of what should have been the trunklid level. They are trying to hide that its the same underpinnings the Avalon and Lexus uses. Instead of bulging the sheet metal way out they rounded the corners. Even the dash gauges look weird and they have a white background from what I see as one lady drives hers by when I'm walking in the area.
The dashboard of the 2007 Camry reminds me of my Mom's circa 1965 Lady Kenmore washing machine. Well, I guess that is a proper motif for an appliance like a Camry! Funny thing I saw this morning - 2007 Camry with spinner wheels!
>BUT, CR refuses to let the OEM's see the actual data or anybody else for that matter.
The tobacco companies didn't want people to see their data either. Remember the congressional hearings with all of the CEOs of the tobacco companies swearing to tell the truth?!!! :P
The 2007 Camry looks like a pig with that new snout. Please post a picture when you have done it.
I have to agree, that is what it looks like. Since this model is to attract a younger edgier crowd, I think it would be great marketing to introduce a Camry Classic for people who liked the former version of the Camry.
Hey, maybe GM could buy the blueprints of the old version of the Camry and introduce that as the new Bel-Air! Now that could really get things turned around.
The AValon and Camry both lifted stole the 750 BMW trunk on trunk look. I saw a BMW with Huge wheels and spinners with a plate behind the spinner blocking airflow to the brakes; the plate was the same green color as the car. The driver had that "I'm a high school dropout and I deal in pharmaceuticals and your cops can't pin anything on me and look at the cool car I'm driving. Ain't I done great in my life?" look. It was a 750 BMW or some number like that with the raised trunk look.
The dashboard of the 2007 Camry reminds me of my Mom's circa 1965 Lady Kenmore washing machine.
Monday's Camry bashing today, huh?
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (Me, I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive an 89 Cadillac Brougham - even when it was new)
You're right though, I don't think spinners are appropriate looking on a Camry. That truly is an American status symbol for old Cadillac sedans and new Escalades.
Comments
J. D. Power is respected by the auto industry. Consumer Reports is liked by their readers. I think that they (CR) are a joke, but that is just me.
I also am beginning to hate to read car magazines.
In the last comparison of the Vette and the Cobra, they judge the back seat (Vette has none=0). That's not an issue in this comparison. Then they add arbitraty numbers at the end for "fun to drive" and "gotta have it factor". Just give me the facts. No Mustang fan is gonna drive a vette and no Vette fan will drive a mustang. The gotta have it factor does not apply.
A few years back I was in the mood for something and my three choices were a Lightning F150, an Audi TT and a BMW 330Ci. What did they have in common, nothing more than I liked them all. I got the Audi, probably would have liked any of the others better. It didn't last long for me. The point is I don't need the writers impressionary opinions just the performance facts, especially when they are comparing two vehicles that have hugh loyal followers.
Seriously, would a 500hp Mustang Cobra NOT be fun to drive? (Even it you were a Vette fan)
That's an insurmountable problem, then. A $3000 to fix problem in addition, when it goes in for repairs. AND it'll do the wrong thing at least half of the time - Toyota should ditch this monstrosity and get back to basics.
Short term they offer great content for the price but I'm back to Toyotas again (at least for a while)
Naturally, the ratings are opinionated, based upon those factors CR favors and disfavors, but the survey is nuetral, based upon reader's responses. (The one area that these converge is that CR will not recommend a car that gets reliability predictions of "below average" or "well below average".)
In the case of the former, you can decide whether or not you share CR's perspective. The latter is a data sampling of survey respondents, not related to CR's opinions or judgments. Two different animals, and not quite comparable.
There's no reason to believe that. An adequate sample size is not determined by total sales, but by the number of data points in the sample. If CR surveys a fair number owners of a given car (at least 30), that should be sufficient to get a decent answer, no matter how many units were sold.
The one flaw to CR that I see is that it doesn't provide the margin of error for each nameplate, which will vary from one car to another because the sample sizes aren't the same for each car, so they may not all be directly comparable. Those nameplates with greater numbers of responses should provide more accurate results than those with fewer responses, meaning the data for the bread-and-butter cars should be better than for the rest. But still, if the sample sizes are large enough (and CR won't report results with insufficient numbers of responses), then they should all be good enough.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, it doesn't need to be. Take a stats course, and you will see why this doesn't matter. You can derive accurate data from small samples, and the relative proportion of the size of the sample doesn't negate the validity of the survey. No need for anywhere near 1,000 responses to get a good result -- Gallup can do a public opinion with half that number, yet one that projects the views of tens of millions of people with reasonable accuracy.
In any case, there's no reason to believe that the CR survey results will favor one nameplate over another. The same questionnaire goes to everyone, and the questions are neutral. There's no reason for the survey to favor one car over another, unless the better car simply has fewer defects or problems.
As far as Consumers Reports goes, the issue for me is this: do they get 90% of their subscribers to respond on an annual basis so that we can assume that the reponses are not just from some disgruntled owners? Does anyone know the answer to that?
Why would JD fudge the data when all the OEM's buy it no matter what the results? If they got cought they would be out of business (as would CR of they got cought).
BUT, we will soon have new IQS2 results with a new survey. We will see. Perhaps it will be closer to CR????
A few black dots or red dots might not mean much, but if there is a whole row of black dots, you can assume it is a poor buy.
Surveys like statistics can mean all kinds of things, but overall, it can be a useful guide.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I've done random comparisons between the two, and I find that they tend to correlate fairly often. (It would be highly inefficient for JDP to survey millions of people at random, most of whom don't have cars to fit the survey scope.) We should remember that JDP does surveys only at the 90-day and 3-year marks, whereas CR reviews over the last several (six?) model years, so there may be some difference because of the different survey periods.
I'm not sure where JDP gets its respondent list, but my guess is that it comes from the automakers themselves who are paying for the data. I have to wonder whether automakers may omit those who prove disgruntled in their own surveys.
A few black dots or red dots might not mean much, but if there is a whole row of black dots, you can assume it is a poor buy.
Absolutely agree, modest differences may not mean anything at all, and may sometimes be attributely largely to the margin of error, rather than real differences. Data has to be used in context with the understanding that there can be some degree of error, but those imperfections don't mean that the data has no value.
The people who do respond have a reason, whether it's a negative reason or not, for spending the time to fill out the papers. Based on my opinion of who does subscribe to CR anymore, I don't believe their subscriber base is typical of all buyers, and that's my opinion. Noone I know now subscribes. I used to know one person who did.
JD Powers samples from all the buyers either based on registration data from manufacturers or from the BMVs in various states. I had either two or three vehicles for which I received JD Powers surveys. For many others I did not.
Think about how may of your friends subscribe to CR. And do any of them respond to the surveys.
All CR would have to do is publish data about their number of respondents for each car model and their knowledge of the demographics of those respondents to give more credibility to their surveys.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I see that Cadillac look pretty reliable for a few years, but must turn costly there after. That is if you believe in the Consumer Reports data. Why don't people look at the rest of the JD Powers data on cars available on Edmund's site. Goes back more than 3 years.
-Loren
i dont remember anyone asking for your guess, you seem to be so insistant on any who post to back it up with proof where is your proof on this?
I'm don't understand for certain what you are questioning. I posted my opinion but someone always demands proof of everyone else on their opinion or facts. Are you saying you agree or disagree with me.
As for anyone asking, I didn't ask for your comment but I'll politely respond assuming your meaning is clear.
You are free to look up your own proof. Prove it's wrong. I am free to post my opinion just as you are. Please check the Rules of the Road or contact a real host.
Have a good day...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've asked for an annullment but the hosts won't grant one.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Then they complain about the slalom ability of the car. You'd think a mag that has Masserati and Audi and Ford GT and Corvette and Vette SO6 -- all performance cars that most people don't buy but many love to read about and dream about would have picked the performance version of the Lucerne. Unless they wanted it to be soft and comfortable riding for people like (me).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
All things they consider yet seldom having impact on the people considering the particular car.
Most buyers want a car for travel from A to B. We like to read about and talk about everyone else's car having to live up to the quality of a ???(insert favorite example perfect car here), but in reality we aren't going to shop for one, new or used.
Do I understand my June MT that the civic si and vw gti both have electric steering. That's awful; people critize GM Malibu and Ion for having electric. That's going to put GM down the dumper.
Actually GM will be here in the future. When's a good time to buy GM stock for the ride up? Has pessimism reached a high enough level yet?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
are enjoying their last few months as well paid
UAW members.
In 07 when Magna takes the last 20% ownership from DCX
and the UAW contract ends they will also go non-union at 1/2 pay and minimal benefits and LIKE it !
The older seniority guys are either taking the buyout
or transfering to other DCX plants (Fat chance since
so many others are "sittin on the bench" waiting for
openings!).
Not too many options for the younger guys with families
except for McDs or other low paying work in our depressed
area................ :sick:
CR, otoh, has lost all credibility with me. Go to their auto guide. Check out the Jeep Cherokee. Notice the above average marks in the back/raw data, but black circles of death in the review? Check out the Avalon/Camry. Notice how there's not a black circle in the transmission category like there should be, what with all of the recalls?
They are weighing the data and/or adding their own bias while not telling us what it is, so it totally invalidates the data. It's basically worthless as well, since the sample size is 100% voluntary, and many more people who have had problems are likely to respond.
Frequency of repairs, coupled with cost of repairs is about all you can go by. Some cars, like older late 90s Benzes and Volvos are tanks - pricey to fix, but hardly ever break. Others, like GM are cheap to fix, but break constantly. Still others like a 4 cylinder Accord with stickshift make the repairman wonder if he's in the right job.
But, yeah - they need to test the best models from GM. It's as if they are purposely trying to start off with a bias goign in. A good example is the constant RX-8 vs whatever hot sportscar that looks like it for $35K reviews.
Okay - you have a $25K sports sedan with semi-hidden rear doors to look sporty - with 8K in options, versus a stripped-down 350Z. DUH. They might as well throw in a BMW 3 series or an IS350 it'd be as valid and fair of a comparison. Yet they do this nonsense with GM all the time.
I've only seen one review of the Lucerne CXS with the good engine and suspension online, out of dozens for the model, and it's the ONLY one that is glowing/a good review. As expected. Part of it is the reviewers, and part of it is GM - they need to sell it as a seperate model or ditch the 3.8L engine and stock suspension entirely.
The stereo sounds fantastic, especially LOUD!
New Lucerne is sort of interesting. A poorer mans DTS - interesting. Both the Caddy and the Lucerne may make good used car buys for those wanting a luxury car. Hyundai Azera kinda adds another option in there to think of. Hey, new kid on the block. Say what ya want, the car looks good and gets good reviews. Is this company for real, as in great 4 to 8 year running cars -- anyone's guess on that one. I think many people will still buy a 4 cylinder Accord or Camry for the same price or more than a Sonata, Azera or Lucerne V6. There is the strong belief in the car in respect to reliability and resale value.
I have test driven the Chrysler 300 and it is a good ride. The crazy high doors, with little windows, I am still not too sure about for practicability. It has been a long-long time since I have driven a really big car like a Caddy. I may test a Deville and a CTS used car in the same day. The CTS rear wheel drive sounds good. And the last Cadillac I test drove was a 1979 or 1980, I think. I take it the new ones handle a bit crisper :shades: A Deville or DTS would be interesting to test. The Lucerne may be the real bargain in a year or so used.
Have you noticed all the sporty cars are being discontinued. Gone is the last 4 cylinder RWD - 240SX, and the Prelude, and Celica are no more. The Honda Accord and Civic coupes look OK. The G6 GTP coupe is not bad. Mid-size sporty in RWD is the CTS and that's about it. The Dodge Charger is kinda homely. I am just out of ideas on sporty coupes under $21K. Heck even for thousand more, it is mainly sedans and mostly FWD. This is why I am sort of backing off my original plan of getting a sports car, sporty coupe, or sports sedan. May shoot for a good V6 like the Azera, with luxury or even the Sonata GLS , or in the American cars, something like a used CTS, or Lucerne. Heck, if used, throw in the V8. Test drove the new Stang, but I did not like it as much as I thought I would. Kinda like better interiors and the modern stuff now. Maybe I should try the Mazda6 - said to be the sportiest of the sedans, until you get to the CTS.
If GM had a car like the old Nova or a Camaro, I would be interested in test driving one. The Malibu is just not attractive. Looked at say six Monte Carlos on the lot and none had side air bags. Kinda old school cars anyway, but that has some charm, oddly enough. The Cobalt is too small, I think still looks cheap inside, and the outside is too bland a style. If I get anywhere close to being back in the GM family again, I guess it will be a used Cadillac or Lucerne ( maybe a year end giveaway new car special?)
In new car options, it seems to me so far in looking around, the Hyundai is offering the most for the money. Honda is steady with great resale, the Toyota Camry CE a fairly good value, and Mazda6 possibly a little more fun sedan.
I really do not want to return to miniature sized cars, though I had a blast for three years in a Miata. Thank goodness some SUV beast did not quash me flat as a pancake! The Corolla was a good car, but there again not American boy sized (note to self-must diet soon). Unless I decide to spend some extra bucks on a CTS, most other options are FWD cars. Maybe a nice luxury one in mid to larger size. Too bad there is no Chevy Nova or Ford Fairlane these days. Recall those with a V8?
-Loren
-Loren
Of course, I'm insistent on proof, otherwise the internet becomes a series of accusations, lies and misstatements. Claims that are false and claims that are accurate and verifiable do not deserve the same weight.
Most of the time, I provide sources that other can verify, but I make occasional guesses and indicate them as such, which makes it clear that I don't claim them to be facts. If you have a data source that shows where JDP gets its respondent list, I'd be happy to see it, so feel free to provide it if you have it.
Sources: the Polk Company’s purchase files (a combination of registration and title record files), the Polk Company’s lease files, manufacturer’s sales records (for states that prohibit the release of registration for market research).
So the automakers do play a role in some aspects of the respondent pool, but some of the pool comes from Polk, which is fair enough.
Interestingly, JD Power surveys 50,000 buyers for a given model year (although surely it doesn't get that many responses), while CR received back about 1,000,000 responses from its last survey. Therefore, CR should be generating higher response rates per nameplate, which would reduce its margin of error and make it more precise as compared to JD Power. Still, both surveys should be useful and reasonably accurate much of the time.
Of course I thought the same thing when American Motors came out with the Pacer and the Matedor (sp?). (My best friends dad bought one of those. Never could figure that out)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I tried to talk her into getting the 3.6, but girlfriend tends to be a cheapskate sometimes, which is good. She has a young girl working for her that maybe makes about $30K a year and is driving a new Acura TL, shops at Lord & Taylor, and even has a personal trainer. Either this young lady is up to her eyeballs in credit card debt or has a sugar daddy.
Holy smoke! That's EXACTLY what I want! First, let me run to the bank to get some cash!
Flashy? Feh! Uglier - Aye! Just goes to show Toyota or Honda can put any grotesquery on the market and it would sell. The 2007 Camry looks like a pig with that new snout. I'm tempted to buy one, paint it pink, and fabricate a curly tail to weld to the decklid.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Holy smoke! That's EXACTLY what I want! First, let me run to the bank to get some cash!
Try to get a LaCrosse or Lucerne demonstrator...it will be perfect.
The employee with the Acura TL...now that's hot!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The tobacco companies didn't want people to see their data either. Remember the congressional hearings with all of the CEOs of the tobacco companies swearing to tell the truth?!!! :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Please post a picture when you have done it.
I have to agree, that is what it looks like. Since this model is to attract a younger edgier crowd, I think it would be great marketing to introduce a Camry Classic for people who liked the former version of the Camry.
Hey, maybe GM could buy the blueprints of the old version of the Camry and introduce that as the new Bel-Air! Now that could really get things turned around.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
liftedstole the 750 BMW trunk on trunk look. I saw a BMW with Huge wheels and spinners with a plate behind the spinner blocking airflow to the brakes; the plate was the same green color as the car. The driver had that "I'm a high school dropout and I deal in pharmaceuticals and your cops can't pin anything on me and look at the cool car I'm driving. Ain't I done great in my life?" look. It was a 750 BMW or some number like that with the raised trunk look.2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Monday's Camry bashing today, huh?
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (Me, I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive an 89 Cadillac Brougham - even when it was new)
You're right though, I don't think spinners are appropriate looking on a Camry. That truly is an American status symbol for old Cadillac sedans and new Escalades.