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:shades: Loren
Loren
Didn't the Hamtrack assembly plant where the Lucerne is built win the #1 assembly plant in the world ????? All the J.D. awards and others gets forgotten about. I will agree GM has a bad past in Quality and engineering. GM deserves credit for stepping up to the plate. They have a good quality cars coming off the showroom floor. The Lucerne, STS, DTS, GTO, Corvette, G6, Torrent, Impala, Monte Carlo, HHR, Colbalt, Lacrosse, Rainer, and the 2007 SUV's, Trucks, and mid size SUV's. The 2006 H3, Colorado, Canyon, aren't bad either. The Saturn Aura is another example of quality. The Relay is a nice vehicle for it's class too.
I was shocked to hear the Nissan nameplate in the same breath as the Buick Lucerne. You would have a arguement with the Avalon, or Infiniti M. The BMW 5 isn't a true competitor for the Lucerne since it's a sports sedan. If you want to compare the 2 ok. The MSRP on a loaded "5" is about $20+K more than the Lucerne. The Lucerne is made better with less defects per car, has higher quality materials, and alot more luxury features. The Bimmer wins in acceleration, and world class handling. It however is the ugly duckling of sport/lux sedans and many would agree.
Well these are soley my opinions and how I see the
auto-industry and GM. :shades:
Rocky
!!!!! The Altima/Maxima cars (they look alike) is nothing like the Lucerne. Good try.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think the main reason the Lucerne has a Nissan-esque look to it is the "face". The headlights and grille opening do resemble an '02+ Altima, or '00-03 Maxima to a a degree. And it has a similar roofline, with the reverse-slant leading edge of the C-pillar that seems to be in vogue these days.
If you really want to trace it back though, those old Pinin Farina Nashes had that same reverse slant. So did '53-54 Chevy hardtop coupes, and '58 Chevies and Pontiacs. Various '53-54 Mopars also used it, as did the '57-58 Buick and Cadillac. And '57 Lincoln. And Rambler, basically a holdover from Nash, used it in various models up through around 1962.
Now I really don't see the Nissan resemblance as an insult to the Lucerne. Personally, I like the current Altima, although they need to spend a few more bucks on the interior. And I do find the Lucerne to be a handsome looking beast.
Now comparing it to the current Maxima is an insult...to the Lucerne! :P I think the Lucerne looks better than the Avalon as well. However, bot the Maxima and Avalon do have the Lucerne beat in the engine/driveline department, at least where standard powerplants are concerned.
For the price of an Avalon made up to my specs, it would make more sense to get a Lexus ES330.
I could not tolerate Toyota dealers' attitudes. Once one has been attacked by sharks, he's afraid to go back in the ocean. I feel the same way about a Toyota dealership after my girlfriend and I naively went to look at a Camry.
I'd really rather have a Buick.
The interior room, engine, and style would be enough for me to go with an Avalon, versus an ES330.
This article is still accessible for a few days.
Those cars are gone for a reason - nobody was buying them. IMHO, the same fate unfortunately awaits the Lucerne.
Please don't insult Infiniti M by comparing it to Lucerne.
It is directly compared to BMW 5 series and actually in recent comparos it has won over the 545.
Lucerne can’t even be compared to 300C, because it is FWD and too soft and mushy to be a real driver's car.
It is what it is - a big, bulky FWD sedan.
If I wanted value and good handling ,decent looks and good reliability I'd buy Hyundai Azera. (10,000) cheaper but still a great FWD luxury sedan.
Loren
The 1995-1999 Nissan Maxima did not like a Buick. The 98 Altima looked like it was trying to be the Japanese Audi A4 in terms of styling. The 96 A4 and the 98 Altima have lots of exterior styling similarties if you look at the 2. The 98 Altima the exterior designers were just playing it safe not to to anything radical with exterior of the 98 Altima I think.
The cars aren't dead ringers for each other, but there is a similarity.
I can see where you could see the Lucrene has a similar grille opening to the 00-03 Maxima but the 02+ Altima's grille opening no I don't see that in the Lucrene. In my opinion the headlighs of the Lucrene look kinda of look the shape of the 00-03 Maxima to a certain degree but not totally in my opinion. The 02+ Altima's headlights are alot smaller than the Lucrene's. Overall though the Lucrene;s overall exterior design of the front end is better proportioned than the 00-03 Maxima. The 02+ altima is totally different animal stylistically than the Lucrene that the 2 cars aren't even comparable.
The '98-01 Altima really had a "confused" look about it, an odd combination of angles, curves, and creases, none of which really complimented each other. It looked more to origami art for inspiration than anything else. Oh well, if nothing else, it braced us, to an extent, for when the Aztek was sprung on us!
I can see a faint resemblance to the A4 in the taillights, but that's about it. Otherwise the A4 just has a generic Audi look to it...clean, minimalist, and not offensive to the eye. The Altima from that time was just a mess!
But they're similar enough. Not the first time something like this has happened, though. A 1989 Camry and 626 have a strong similarity. A 1980 Volare and a 1980 Fairmont (if you got the cheap model with the single headlights) share a strong resemblance (both were done by the same designers though, as a lot of Ford stylists jumped ship to Chrysler). A 1980-82 T-bird and a 1980-83 Cordoba/Mirada have a resemblance (again, themes that were influenced by the same people). And going way back, the 1960 Ford looks like it was influenced by the 1959 Chevy...although I think Ford did a much better job with that batwinged look.
The Lucerne is a big bulky sedan that is a FWD. The Hyundai Azera isn't in the same league as the Lucerne. :confuse: come-on really ????? The Azera is a nice inexpensive car for someone that doesn't care having early 1990's Buick Skylark Quality.
Rocky
The 92-94 Maxima looked alright. The 95-96 Maxima the talights were goofy looking. I like the refresh of the 97 Maxima that they did with the tailights that lasted until 99. The 00-03 Maxima was just a styling mess.
"The '98-01 Altima really had a "confused" look about it, an odd combination of angles, curves, and creases, none of which really complimented each other."
It was just bland and offensive not hideous looking but I'll agree the front and back end just don't really match up well together. The late 90's with the 98 Altima and 00 Maxima the Nissan design team was just full of awkward idea's in my opinion.
Andre, I'm not seeing the similartie of the Altima and Lucrene. I'm just not. I totally with you on the 626 and Camry from the late 80's though. The 626 looked better to me though than the camry from that time period though.
I don't know if too many people would cross-shop an Azera with a Lucerne, but you never know...they just might. The Lucerne's about 11" longer (around 203" versus 192") and has about 5-6" more wheelbase (115.6" versus ~110"). That might sound like a big difference but it really isn't. I'm sure there's really not a huge difference in interior room, either. Both cars could probably seat 4 adults easily, although the Lucerne would be better for 3 across in the back.
And the Azera is a little porker for its size, not weighing much less than the Lucerne, so that probably negates any advantage perceived by its smaller external dimensions.
I don't think so. Hyundai's quality is leaps and bounds better than a 1990 Buick. You may wish to carefully inspect and scrutinize the current Hyundai line-up. It's far different than those of the past. Check the fit-and-finish, it doesn't take a back seat to any of the mainstream Japanese brands. The Azera is not even Hyundai's top-of-the line vehicle - in the USA yes, but worldwide no. I used to drive Honda's - not any more.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
The taillights are awesome on the Altima. I guess one could tape some Oldsmobile tail lenses over them, if they are too racy looking. Won't work for Buicks I guess as they are known as sleepers. Wasn't always that way though.
Loren
I wished I could change your bad view on the Lucerne.
Maybe someday when it does get the 6 speed auto and RWD you will finally respect the car.
If GM would drop the saab turbo 4 cylinder in it. Would that help ???? :P It has 260 hp.
Rocky
Rocky
As for the boy-racer taillights, that speaks volumes.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Rocky
Rocky
And some of you thought General Motors was going to roll over and die to the hands of Toyota :P
Rocky
Rocky
Am I reading this wrong?
Rocky
Personally, I would honestly like to buy a GM car again someday, but they simply don't offer anything in the realm of quality, design, or reliability that I got used to since I stopped buying American cars.
I travel a lot of work, and wind up renting various GM cars through National, because my employer has a contract with National. These are usually brand spanking new or one year old Malibu's, Impalas, G-6's, etc...
These cars are the epitome of mediocrity. They don't feel right, they don't drive right, are uncomfortable, and there's always something not working right. Every time I come home from these trips and get into my 6 y/o or 3 y/o Japanese cars, the difference is literally night and day.
Granted, I haven't driven the Lucerne, but one look at the pictures, and that hideous steering wheel, tells me it's another one of GM's parts bin specials.
GM has a looooooong way to go before anything even resembling a turnaround happens. And believe me, I would love to see GM come back.
Not being nasty, but if Delphi was serious about 10-12 per hour, you would see Wal-mart, K-Mart, Lowe's, and mayeb Whirlpool/Kitchenaide, GTI, other factories and shopping centers workers in a 12 mile line going to Dayton Delphi for a job, if open to allwho wanted to apply, and they could get those workers, easily.
Sounds like they won't be playing hard ball.
Hyundai buying radios from Delphi is a good thing.
Rockylee - thanks for the link. If you notice, that same article quotes the following:
The SUV slump didn't extend to all automakers. Nissan Motor Co. reported a 9.5 percent increase in sales for the year, largely on the strength of its truck and SUV sales. Sales of the Nissan Pathfinder SUV doubled over a year ago.
U.S. automakers also reported disappointing results for December despite a new round of holiday discounts. GM's December sales were down 10 percent, Ford fell 8.7 percent and Chrysler was down 5 percent as pay back from strong summer sales continued.
Are you saying this article is evidence that GM is making a comeback?
And - on the long-winded Lucerne discussion - it competes with Avalon and (maybe) Maxima. But if GM were smart, it would be more creative... GM needs the sedan market back - and while I would never suggest the dinosaurs of the 70's, I would suggest borrowing from their success of the past... it's something that Chrysler does very well... let's dream a little...
GM could build a sleek, fast, relatively wide, large American sedan (long wheelbase of over 110", short overhangs) - high power, but exceptionally quiet ride - RWD, 5-6 passenger, V8 powered car with 300+ horsepower and displacement on demand for improved gas mileage, with creative, elegant styling queues - (portholes? why not). Also offer a sleek wagon version with a creative tailgate design (wagons are a favorable alternative today to SUV's) Tasteful use of chrome around windows and in bumper trim. Maintain high tolerances, high-quality materials, and exciting, unique styling - price it at $25K at base, topping at $35K, compete with Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger/Magnum and call it the 'Wildcat'. If it hit the current car market, I would bet money that it would be a huge sales hit. And, it would change perceptions of GM in buyer's minds in terms of quality and value.
GM could do this - but they won't. Not in 2006, and not anytime soon. GM must 'sell, sell, sell' those leftover Impalas, Uplanders, and Cobalts to all those eager buy-r... oops, wait... where did all those eager GM buyers go?
Oh, I see them.. they're over at the Honda dealer signing the paperwork on their last '06 Accord currently in stock.
I travel a lot of work, and wind up renting various GM cars through National, because my employer has a contract with National. These are usually brand spanking new or one year old Malibu's, Impalas, G-6's, etc...
These cars are the epitome of mediocrity. They don't feel right, they don't drive right, are uncomfortable, and there's always something not working right. Every time I come home from these trips and get into my 6 y/o or 3 y/o Japanese cars, the difference is literally night and day.
Granted, I haven't driven the Lucerne, but one look at the pictures, and that hideous steering wheel, tells me it's another one of GM's parts bin specials.
GM has a looooooong way to go before anything even resembling a turnaround happens. And believe me, I would love to see GM come back.
Do this, ya knucklehead: try renting a stripped down Nissan or go to Europe and ride in a plastic-seated manual transmission Mercedes taxi and see how they compare to the cars you drive at home. They suck, of course. And GM rentals suck, basically, cuz they're stripped to the bone. Now do this: go drive a Grand Prix rental. Pretty damn bland, esp. if it has 15,000 miles of rental car abuse on it. Now go drive a Grand Prix GXP. Notice the difference. They're two different cars. I think the domestics would be better off if they never sold another rental car again, and then every rentawarrior would drive some [non-permissible content removed] stripped Honda or Nissan or Toyota with bubblegum on the steering wheel and the faint smell of babyshit from the backseat and a loose steering rack from some idiot jumping curbs the week before and they'd say, "This thing is nowhere near as good as the 3/y.o and 6/year.old domestic I have back home."
So do this: go to dealers and drive new cars. Then compare and then flap your jaws.
2) I assume by boy-racer, you are referring to the look of the taillights as something like the after market - tuner look. They look fine to me. I guess people that prefer Buick styling are somehow stuck in the 80's. Maybe the Roadmaster is what is most appealing to theme.
3) People are not conned into anything when selecting a car. Well at least in the long run. They may fall prey to the idea of a new and improved domestic, only to find it is the same ol' - same ol'. When they buy cars that work, 4, 6, V6 or V8, they will buy them again. When they had crap for a car, they will not buy the brand again. Pretty simple. If the Japan makes are of less quality, and durability, why are the customers satisfied? Why are they not racing in to buy the latest Pontiac or Buick, with the emergency brake of the floor and engine from 80's? Quite a few people must be in one heck of a trance.
4) Nissan will have to work on those tail lights, or find an aftermarketer that has some plain jane ones for the buick owners. They can also add some curb feelers.
5) The LaCrosse is not bad looking - just overpriced.
6) My Dad's Camry is perfectly quiet on the road, with a 4 cylinder engine. Maybe GM just needs to improve on the 4 bangers.
:shades: Loren
GM:---------------- 4,454,385 ---down 4% from 4,655,459
Ford: ------------- 3,153,781 ---down 5% from 3,319,767
DCX: -------------- 2,529,254 ----up 4% from 2,427,634
Toyota: ----------- 2,260,296 -----up 10% from 2,060,049
Honda: ------------ 1,462,472 -----up 5% from 1,394,398
Nissan: ----------- 1,076,669 ------up 9% from 985,982
Hyundai: ---------- 730,863 --------up 6% from 688,670
Volkswagen: ------- 310,915 -----down 8% from 336,422
BMW: -------------- 307,465 --------up 4% from 296,524
Mazda: ------------ 258,339 -----down 2% from 263,882
Subaru: ----------- 196,002 -------up 5% from 187,402
Mitsubishi: ------- 123,995 ----down 23% from 161,609
Suzuki: ------------ 82,101 ------up 11% from 73,946
Porche: ------------ 31,933 ------ up 2% from 31,473
Isuzu :------------- 12,177 --- down 55% from 27,188
- Something interesting you might all notice: GM lost almost exactly 200,000 units in annual sales, while Toyota gained almost exactly 200,000 units
I live in the area.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I looked at the front end of this car and it is nothing like the Lucerne.
Some people just don't give up on trying to put down the Lucerne!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
One thing I didn't like about the Lucerne was that in pictures at least, the taillights looked to me like they were lifted off of a Cavalier. In person though, I thought they looked pretty good. Wish I could've seen it from the front, though.
I also didn't pay attention to the portholes, so I don't know if it was a V-6 or V-8 model. One thing I did notice about the car though, is that in person it looked smaller than I would've thought. To me, it looked smaller than the LeSabre it's supposed to replace, and definitely nowhere near Park Ave-sized. But then I was in my pickup, so that might've thrown off my perspective. Plus, with the types of "full sized" cars I'm used to, I guess I would consider the Lucerne to be small-ish.
As for the Altima and Lucerne comparisons, I'm one who might actually cross-shop the two. IMO, the Lucerne isn't really that much bigger to be in a whole different league. I guess it might be because at one time, in the 80's, most cars that ranged in length from around 185" to 205" pretty much served the same purpose...midsized cars. Cars like the Celebrity 600/Caravelle, and first-gen Taurus were around 186-188", while something like a Malibu was around 193". The Fairmont/LTD were around 197", and the Bonneville/Regal/Cutlass Supreme/Monte Carlo were around 200". At the top of the heap, cars like the Gran Fury/Diplomat/5th Avenue were around 205". Now they all varied in terms of interior dimensions and trunk room, and some had bigger tranny/driveshaft humps than others, while some had wheel wells that cut in worse than others. But for the most part, they had around 98-102 cubic feet of interior room and 15-17 cubic feet of trunk space. I had both a Malibu and a Gran Fury, and really, there didn't seem to be much of a difference between the two. The Gran Fury, despite being nearly a foot longer, really didn't seem any more cumbersome.
There was still a definite jump to a "true" full-sized car back then, like a Caprice or Crown Vic, although downsized ones like the 1985 Electra and 1986 LeSabre started to muddle the distinction.
So today, I really don't see that much of a difference between an Altima and a Lucerne, at least as far as size is concerned. I don't know what a Lucerne with the 3.8 V-6 will do 0-60 in, but in the LeSabre it could launch the car in as little as 8 seconds. Now the Lucerne is heavier, so it might not be quite as quick, but the Altima 4-cyl, with an automatic, would usually clock in at around 9-9.5.
I've driven the Altima with the 2.5, as well as various GMs with the 3.8. Even though the 3.8 is an old design, it's still more quiet, IMO, and doesn't sound as bad. That might just be from better insulation and engine dampening, though. And the Altima sounded very quiet at highway speeds. It was mainly around town, idling, or hard acceleration that I didn't like the way it sounded. I think my ear is just tuned for bigger engines, though, preferably a V-8. So to me, most 4-cyl engines don't sound very impressive. Your mileage may vary.
And to this day, I still like the Altima's taillights. IMO they're kind of a combination of retro meets boy-racer...but in a good way.