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I don't understand where all this hype about Toyota overtaking GM as #1 is coming from. "
You'll understand by 2008!
Focus we get in USA is not the same class as they get in Europe, but for the price, like the Cobalt, not a bad econo car.
Are they still making the Neon? Caliber should be a better selling car. Looks like a meaner and beefier looking Matrix / Vibe. Seems like GM is going to have a rough road ahead taking on Japan and Korean smaller cars. Just one heck of a sliced up pie. Wish they had instead gone with say the old Nova sized car, in rear wheel drive, as sort of an in-between price and size range. Not econo sized, not FWD, not aimed at Civic and the rest, but instead an American looking car with good head room and style. The inline 6 would be sweet. They did not win trying to build a better VW, the Vega looked OK, but well you know the rest, and efforts to unseat the throne held by Japan/Korean small cars, is a tough fight, with little profit.
Yeah, that nasty thing profit. Volume ain't profit. Now a leading company could possibly win by building a car, like a new Nova. Something of a poor mans BMW. Datsun did this with the 510. The focus may actually shift back to GM cars, as in style, inline 6 smoother engines, large enough for at least four people, as in head room and good big butt seating, and well,,, all the elements that could set it apart form anything Japan has to offer. Why not? People have responded to Chrysler new ideas. Recall the style of the late 60's, of Body by Fisher? Hey, let's see that again!
Loren
You are very correct. I will understand by 2008.
GM will not only be #1 still, but will seperate themselves much further ahead of Toyota. If the FJ is any indication of the styling and engineering from Toyota, they got some serious issues. :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
There's you GM "Total Value Promise"
Rocky
Rocky
-This is coming from a GM man. But the truth is the truth, and BMW still builds expensive automobiles for driving enthusiasts. Too bad most like myself, will never beable to afford a premium copy like a M3 sedan. :mad: and Jealous of those who can.
Rocky
It's a combination of horsepower, torque, transmission, and weight that is important. And all that is it comparison to other cars in the same class/price range.
Sorry I was not clear. I just mentioned that 200 HP is not a low number as a point of clarification. All the vehicles I mentioned had a slower 0-60 than the Lucerne per Consumer Reports. And if you fell the ES330 is "sluggish" then that makes my point. You are not really worried about safety. The ES330 has plenty of power for safety. It must be something else.
Could we have an example of PR here?
I hate to say it, but I think the inline 6 is pretty much dead. The industry has decided that the sub-2.5-liter displacements can be handled just as well by 4-cylinder engines (which means the Daewoo FWD I6 will die with the current Leganza/Verona). Displacements over 2.5L would have to be RWD only, and thus fall short compared to more flexible V6 engines that can be built in both FWD and RWD configurations. BMW is going to try to tough it out, but European pedestrain crash standards may force them to adopt the V6. The GM truck I6 may survive, but the economics of adapting the VVT 3.5 and 3.9 Impala V6s to RWD may prevail on a cash-strapped GM.
Of course, that's really torque we're talking about... so a diesel would probably be best for that.
:P
BTW:
The Lucerne is approximately 3900 lbs. with a base 197 hp engine (227 ft-lbs torque).
My GTI is approximately 3000 lbs with a 180 hp engine (173 ft-lbs torque).
Which means my GTI can get out of the way much quicker than the Lucerne. Even though it's numbers are lower, the reduced weight and improved transmission are important factors.
Of course, the two aren't competitors in any sense of the word.
But compare a VW Passat to the Lucerne. You'll find a longer standard feature list, a 6-speed transmission, more power under the hood, and a better suspension for roughly the same price.
Not to mention a better warranty.
Though you won't be able to fit six people into a Passat.
I can only think of one situation where this would really happen, and that when you're trying to make a left turn on the green, but with no arrow. The light turns red while you're in the intersection and you go, cutting across traffic, but then an oncoming car tries to run the red light too. If you were paying attention to the oncoming traffic, it wouldn't be a problem.
If you're making a left turn on a protected green (arrow), the oncoming traffic would most likely have been stopped for some time, as traffic on the cross street would have had the green light. Still, in this case, like the other, you need to LOOK before you enter the intersection. If you take off the moment the light turns green, that's called "running the green", and if you get hit sometimes you can be held partially to blame, because green means "Proceed with CAUTION", not just blindly go out into the intersection. I have a cousin who, years ago, got hit because he took off the moment the light turned green, and was scored by a red light runner. I remember him talking about what a big settlement he was going to get, and how his ship came in, but then oops, that little detail about him "running the green" came out, and his settlement was cut drastically.
But back to the Lucerne versus a GTI...in a situation like what you described, having to dart across an intersection when someone runs a red light, that's more of a 0-30 or 0-40 type of test, and not 0-60 or quarter-mile. There usually isn't a whole lot of difference in the acceleration from most cars in 0-30, although sometimes a split second can mean the difference between life and death.
Still, the driver is more crucial than the car. You need to know your car and what it can or can't do. If you get in a Lucerne and expect it to handle like your GTI, of course you're going to get into trouble. That doesn't make it a dangerous car, though. If it does, then you can also use the flip-side of that, where a person used to a Lucerne, if put behind the wheel of a GTI, might jab the pedal too hard in some situations and end up wiping out on a curve or rear-ending another car!
200hp is plenty for safety purposes. For a modern car example, a Taurus with the 140hp engine has enough torque to be safe. I think this is pretty much a nonissue.
I didn't think I was that old, but in my youth my friends drove their parents old sedans that weighed 3,500 lbs and had 125hp V8s. They had enough power to be safe. They just sucked in most other ways.
The only car I have ever owned that would sometimes make me nervous in those situations was my 2002 Passat 1.8t, as it had some momentary turbo lag.
And the Lucerne really should have more power in the base engine if they're really trying to transform Buick into a true premium brand, and not just a minor step up from Chevrolet. But it's not so slow that it's going to be a death trap!
Agree completely that a Buick should have at least 220hp in a base car like the Lucerne, HOWEVER, Buick is in tween years. It has to satisfy the older traditional buyer looking for conservative, comfortable and value vehicles while also upgrading to the days of old when Buick was a premium vehicle. What killed Olds was changing overnight and losing it's old buyer base. They just could not get the sales volume up in time. Now Buick offers a much better LeSabre replacement (base Lucerne) and very premium CXL and CXS available with a V8 (better than old Park). As many have said the 3.8 tooling module is going away and will be replaced with more HP.
If the Lucerne were 3500-3600 lbs, then I'd agree with you.
The trolling is on clearly here. People who haven't seen a full-sized Buick in years still think it is a boulevard cruiser. They don't even know that the suspension changed in 2000 and they especially don't know that the LaCrosse and Lucerne are competition and vastly different in ride and handling!
I was pacing a Lucerne from Ontario before Christmas and watching the handling as the car went over various lumps and waves on the urban overpasses on the interstate. Much tighter than my 03 LeSabre and much tighter than my 98 with Monroe strut replacements.
The world has changed. That's clear from the responses here. People need to go drive various models and understand the various models have differing suspensions. I drove a 4 and 6 cylinder Accord in 03. Couldn't take the brutal beating from the suspension. I have friends with Camrys do I didn't even brave the salesmen in the firepit of the local dealer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I just viewed the redesigned Tahoe. Geez, It looks like a update of the old Isuzu Trooper! This is what Waggoner thinks will save GM and be the start of yet another promised turnaround? This isn't style, this isn't inovation,and it darn well isn't leadership.What it is, is desporation under incompetant leadership, with a ad budget and ever increasing discounts.Stop drinking the GM Cool aid!
In the last month GM announced a possible mini Vette based on a Solice.Add to that the Saturn version of the Soltice. Poor Soltice is GM's only bright spot and before it has a year under it's belt GM is ready to delute it down to nothing.Pretty soon they'll announce a Soltice MiniVan? (They might as well) Some companies rise and thrive from the depths of desporation.GM is not such a company.
Bill C.
For the Lucerne it's 42.2 feet, which to me seems pretty wide for a car like this.
In contrast, my Intrepid, which is about the same length, albeit in a 2.6" shorter wheelbase, is only 37.6 feet. Now you'd think that the longer wheelbase would have something to do with it, but wait there's more...
2005 Crown Vic, on the 114.7" wheelbase, 40.3 feet
2005 Chrysler 300, on a lanky 120" wheelbase, 38.9 feet.
And even Lemko's 1989 Brougham, on its mammoth 121.5" wheelbase, is only 40.5 feet.
Now in most day-to-day driving, this isn't going to be much of a problem. However, it would be noticeable in tight maneuvering areas...mainly parking and such, or if you had to do a 3-point turn somewhere.
But what gives here? Is the Lucerne's fairly wide turning circle like that because the engine's transverse-mounted, while all those other cars I mentioned are longitudinal?
Now, for a real kicker?
1965 Pontiac Catalina 2+2, 121" wb, 42.8 feet.
1965 Pontiac Bonneville, 124" wb, 43.7 feet.
So on the surface it looks like the Lucerne's turning circle puts it back to the dark ages!
Just for comparison, the 2006 Passat has a very nimble 35.8 foot turning circle, but it's also on a short 106.7" wb. And a BMW 3-series, on its 107.3" wb, is a downright neck-snapping 34.4 feet! :surprise:
Yesterday I saw a brand new Impala parked next to my Honda Odyssey. What can I say. The paint on Impala exhibited a lot of 'orange peel' on the trunk and rear quarter panel. The hood was not aligned properly. The front fenders did not align properly with the A-pillar and front door. These are just a few of the defects that I noticed by looking at a brand new car for about 30 seconds.
The new GM cars like Impala and Lucerne are what GM should have produced about 10 years ago. If you think about it, they are based on platforms introduced more then 10 years ago, so there is not reason what so ever why GM could not have build these cars in 1995. Yes they are competitive with any car built in 1995, but not with cars built in 2006. Maybe if GM came out with these cars in 1995, GM would to be in this mess right now.
I am afraid that for 2006 these cars are a case of "Too Little Too Late."
This is interesting. Where did you read this?
I will help out with more facts. Cobalt ended up at 7th place in car sales for 2005. What a dud.
Also noticed that GM sold as many full size pick ups as Camry and Corolla/Matrix combined. (Top 2 car sales) Trucks sure did die in 2005. GM should just quit building them.
Check out this link talking about "orange peel" on Accords:
fanshawe23, "Honda Accord (2003-2006) Maintenance & Repair" #98, 29 Dec 2005 8:44 pm
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
People are always hesitant to buy new models from any manufacturer, let alone from one who has had problems with their similar offerings in the past. What increase in sales would it take to be a hit?
This is particularly true when you use percentages. Is a 2003 Asztek a sucess because it sold 6% more than say the 2002 Astek? Open your eyes.
The increase in sales was over 31,000 cars. What am I not seeing here?
with a ad budget and ever increasing discounts.Stop drinking the GM Cool aid!
I can't find any full year figures, but for all the talk about the Red Tag sale being a huge fire sale, GM's December incentives were only up $7 per vehicle over last year (see here) That doesn't even cover inflation.
If you check my profile you'll see that I drive a 2005 Civic. I'm hardly a GM koolAid drinker. I bought the civic over a cobalt because 1) I don't trust the 1st year of a new design from any manufacturer, and the civic has earned a reputation of being a great car, 2) It will most likely have better resale if I want a new car in 4-5 years, and 3) when I went out car shopping (In June/July '05) 2005 civics were selling at LOWER PRICES than similarly equipped cobalts. (Probably because GM cut cobalt's rebate way back when they introduced "employee pricing for everyone" and because Honda dealers didn't want to be stuck with a bunch of 2005 civics when the new 06 came out)
Yes I made that up. I keep reading in this thread from a few posters about how brand new GM cars have this falling off, or this peeling, etc. Funny thing is I have never seen any of these problems on any modern car. Perhaps some of you should take pictures of these so called flaws on GM cars, because I am pretty sure at this point it is just a bunch of people with nothing better to do than make stuff up to bad mouth GM.
Solstice hardtop is sharp!
Loren
They don't deserve to be #1, and sooner or later they won't be. And Lutz and his cronies will sitting in a board room nodding their heads wondering what the hell happened? :confuse: Good luck to them...
BTW, not everyone in the world is a brainwashed GM diehard... Nowhere on Edmunds does it say you have to be.
As far as GM remaining the number one automaker in units sold, if current trends continue, it doesn't take a math genius to figure it out. Toyota will be number one world wide as early as the end of this year.
Maybe GM can sell a ton of cars in china, or find a way to sell more vehicles in the US. But, I don't see how anyone can look at current trends (Toyota worldwide sales up every year while GMs has been down) and say Toyota can't pass up GM.
Truth be told, your typical 1985 car has higher quality with regards to orange peel than anything put out today. It's the more environmentally friendly primers they use nowadays.
And as far as "People are always hesitant to buy new models from any manufacturer", I'm already seeing new Civics all over the place even with the controversial styling.
Some people here like to imply that people 'Make Up' stuff about GM. That is just plain silly. The only reason I even wrote here is because it was the first time that I saw a 2006 Impala up close. There are just not that many of them here, and I just happened to have parked next to one at the mall.
The point I was trying to make in the previous post is that the new products from GM are a case of Too Little, Too Late. Even the new trucks and SUVs from GM look very close to the old ones. To me it seems that every thing that GM does now is 'Evolutionary' where they need to do 'Revolutionary' things. GM has to realize that updating current models will not save the company. They need to come up with new and exciting products to save the company. I would say that Solstice roadster is an example of such product
Take Buick Lucerne for example. Maybe it does have a better ride then old Buicks, but who cares. Pontiac Bonneville always had better ride then Buick, and it was based on the same platform as Lucerne. What happened to Bonneville? It got discontinued because people were not buying them. So now we have a Buick which has the ride almost the same as the car which was discontinued, but with the same engine and transmission, but with slightly different styling, which happens to looks like the other Buick Lacrosse, which also is not selling that well. And this is the future of GM? HA HA.
With the success of the Charger and the new 300 though, I wonder if GM has regretted their decision to can this type of car. Even though the D-C models are RWD, this is still the Bonneville's basic territory...the sporty big car.
I liked the Bonneville...I was sad to see it go. Still, the Lucerne seems to me like it bridges the gap between the Bonneville and LeSabre. It's not as conservative as the LeSabre was, but doesn't try to be as sporty as the Bonneville. So maybe in that sense, it's kind of a modern-day Aurora!
The Lucerne looks like the Lacrosse? Well, they do both have 4 wheels. To my eyes, the Lacrosse has traditional Buick styling, but the Lucerne looks more like an Infinity, or even a BMW. It's certainly not traditional Buick styling.
And the Lucerne wasn't designed to replace the Bonneville, it was designed to replace the Lesabre and Park Avenue - completely different target demographic.
Lucerne
7 series
Nice.
I will admit that from the back, it does look like a Passat.
On the orange peel issue, a neighbor has a new Equinox in a purpleish color. I've haven't seen paint that bad on a brand new car since the 70s. It has no shine whatsoever.
Is it impossible to make these things available in the mid-20s?
Loren
In the US just the Chevrolet divison outsells Toyota.
In China, GM outsells everyone.
In Europe GM outsells Toyota 2:1.
Is it mostly in Japan that Toyota gets the advantage? I know in Japan Toyota outsells everyone due to it's closed borders. BMW was only able to sell 100,000 vehicles in all of asia last year.
found all the numbers in various sites on the net. Does anyone have a better lists?