I read somewhere that after WW II, Harley went to Japan and taught them about heat treating metal. If true, it sure came back and bit them.
For a while, it sure did. A lot of it was also public perception (Hell's Angels, etc.) and marketing ("You meet the nicest people on a Honda). But today, H-D sells every bike they can produce, even though they have increased capacity and added shifts. Ford & GM would do well to study what they have done, as they are the most profitable vehicle manufacturer in the US, if not the world. I think they did it by going back to what they do best (large heavy cruisers), and leaving the rest of the market to the others.
You have both a special occasion sterio system and a daily sterio system??? Like two sets of silverware?
I was into hi end audio equipment until I was stupid. One cut on a CD at too much volume and my hearing was shot. Just the rattle of dishes was like daggers in my ears. Be very careful. Years later I can finally listen at low volume. You don't know what you have until you lose it. Racing various types of vehicles didn't help either. Anyway, I have a ton of audio equipment still lying around, much of it vintage, including a pair if Audio Research AR3a speakers that revolutionarized speaker design. They sound amazing even today. I inherited them and one Dynaco system when an older friend died. I built my other set. Here again, if you don't have to have the latest and greatest, you can have lots of toys. Just be patient and buy right. I don't have high priced hobbies like golfing, flying, or boating. I bought my Atma-Sphere amps from the designer as a box of parts and 2 chassis when Ralph changed the design. We then modified the design, going from 10 output tubes per channel to 18. Later, Ralph came out with a 20 tube design. Anyone can buy a pair built for $38K. ;-) The address is in a previous post. Investing was another hobby that helped.
That is something that's hard to explain to a non-union person. The closest reference I can think of is the military, where you eat, live, die, together. That's kinda what it's like to belong. Unity.
In civilian life, that's called Totalitarianism. It used to be a much admired idea back in the 1920's and 1930's (about the same time unions took real hold in the US). Simply did not work out very well in the big lab called real life (understatement of the day ;-)
The only country in the world that is still full hog embracing that idea nowadays is probably North Korea. It's a living example of why "unity," "eat, live, die, together" do not work, despite what the naive mind may think. What is often ingored in the naive way of thinking is that most decisions on resource allocation are very nebulous with long term consequences that the decision makers may not or can not possibly be aware of far in advance. Optimization usually takes place on small scale, incrementally and often unexpectedly. That's why monoculture and centralized decision making are bad bad ideas.
The true color of union supporters is showing again :-) Violence and the advocacy of violence is never far below the surface of unionism. Perhaps some of us are not aware that many Walmart store and department managers are promoted from line workers . . . besides, where would the other workers get paid if a store is shut down for police investigation into aggravated assault? even if the bat wielding thug does not care about putting food on his own family's dinner table.
That's called nepotism :-) It's a sad sad world indeed if all job opportunity is only available to the well-connected. For what it's worth, I knew none of the people who work for me before they came in for interviews. I checked their references, followed by trying them out on the jobs for a couple months. Those who prove themselves on the jobs, I keep; those who are mediocre, I let go. Some of my wife's relative/friends mentioned wanting to work for us; my answer is always no. How would I be able to fire someone who is "connected"??
It's rather amusing to call people engaging in free exchange as repressed . . . but a scheme of redistribution built upon violence as liberated . . . go figure.
I'm sure you received the same note from the host about not replying to each other. Please cease and desist. We are both guests here.
Why is it okay to resort to violence/intimidation when a company says "I have this job and it pays $12/hr" and a non-union individual says "great, I'll do that job for $12/hr", and then the Union heavy says "you'll look awfully funny trying to do that $14/hr job with no teeth." and then the non-union individual says "funny, I don't remember joining a Union....".
Well #1 in this country workers have rights, and if they go out on strike which is legal they are holding out for better terms. In most other democracy's crossing a picket- line is illegal. In this country the picketers make it illegal with a Easton, Louisville Slugger, Worth, Brass Knuckles. I hope being a scab, someday in this country becomes illegal. I might have to hold up a sign next march at my place.
I hope that kinda answers your question.
If I have to swing like dem' Tigers, I will. :shades:
That is something that's hard to explain to a non-union person. The closest reference I can think of is the military, where you eat, live, die, together. That's kinda what it's like to belong. Unity.
In civilian life, that's called Totalitarianism. It used to be a much admired idea back in the 1920's and 1930's (about the same time unions took real hold in the US). Simply did not work out very well in the big lab called real life (understatement of the day
The only country in the world that is still full hog embracing that idea nowadays is probably North Korea. It's a living example of why "unity," "eat, live, die, together" do not work, despite what the naive mind may think.
Umm, Unions exist in CIVILIAN life, they CANNOT exist in a totalitian state. Okay, so it didn't work for Poland and Welch Welensa, did it? (Hence the breakdown of Communism) Didn't work for my Dad and his dad (and even his dad) when they were getting $0.50 per ton, cleaned and out of the mine (not that you'd know what that means), in 1929. It did , but it took another 20 years... Have you not heard that history repeats itself? Give the big guys their way, and they will exploit the little guy every time. Find me an exception in history... I didn't think so.
So in essence, what you are saying is that the employees basically should set the wages. Interesting concept. So why stop at $14 an hour - make it $100 an hour. And if it is good for one group, why not $100 an hour for everyone. Of course this would not work in many an way. First of all you have a whole worldly millions of works making less money, and thus everything would be imported. Ummm, maybe no imports, due to everyone losing employment, and thus no money to import anything. If you really think it through, if every person in America went Union, and made the same wage, the inflation level would match the wage increases within a short - a very short time anyway. Thus the economics of a minimum wage increase not really changing anything. No getting ahead relies on others not making as much. It will means you may be adding education, or have some different job skills, and the company being very profitable over all may be able to support higher wages. Think about it. While you may make extra money as a UAW worker, or say a Union plumber, if everyone was indeed making that much, your advantage goes to zero net gain. Inflation levels it a gain of nada. So I guess what you are really wanting here is group, unit, gang, whatever the term having a right to set a wage scale and not the same for every worker in America. The real focus is your enclave, and not the community, state or county as a whole in regards to standard of living. If the scabs, as you say, suddenly all joined a union, made the better wage in every field of employment, in every shop or store say, then the price of goods would match any wage increase, or worse than that, those products would be imported and those stores would not be in business. So the whole concept has its limits. If you are in a Union, like say the auto or electrical union, and making more money, it would be hard to argue that it was a bad move in any fashion, since you will be making a better living. It is very easy to understand how people would love to be a member. But an independent electrician say may offer his or her services for 25% less. Would you say there should be no independent electricians working?
If a company truly is paying too little, eventually their workforce will not be on the same skill level, and performance. Paying too little, just like paying too much, will come back to bite them. Union or not to go Union will always be a debate with both sides putting up some good arguments. I am merely saying that if everyone got together, and demanded say $100 per hour tomorrow, instant inflation karma kicks in and it would be a net gain of zero.
As for violence, I thought that curbing suffering, injustice, bad conditions, intimidation of workers, and such are the goals of forming a Union. Companies should do no harm, just as their employees. Works both ways. Showing how conditions bettered for the working class under the Union years is a selling point. Having people intimidating others with baseball bats would in fact set that cause back a decade. Best to promote a positive side - working to make better product, with the company, and for the consumer. Win hearts and minds. -Loren
A co-worker used to say that it didn't matter if you got a raise or not, because you would just spend more. Well, that's one point of view.
My daughter went through 4 years of college and works in Nuclear medicine. She has gotten numerous generous raises and makes a very good wage.
Her husband is a high school graduate and a sheet metal worker. Union. He just completed his schooling. Guess what? He makes more than she does. What is wrong with this picture?
Our largest plumbing house is non-union, and is growing in leaps and bounds. Union shops are drying up. Are their days numbered? If so, maybe it's due to the previous example because they are pricing themselves out of competition.
Unions do exist in Civilian life, however they can not legally enforce "eat, live, die, together" without resorting to illegal coercion. Unions do exist in totalitarian states (assuming that's what you meant by "totalitian"; I'm practically dyslexic myself when it comes to typing :-) It's debatable whether Lech Walesa or the Catholic Church had more to do with the fall of communism in Poland . . . however, regardless which was more important in Poland, it would be a folly to suggest that either the union or the church should be de jure political institutions in our political system.
Give the big guys their way, and they will exploit the little guy every time.
And Unions would be just another arrow in the big guys' quiver to shoot down the little guys. A classic example would be GM's embracing of unions in the 1950's . . . as a way to bankrupt the smaller competition. Who ultimately suffer when that happened? American consumers and (would be) workers alike, the little guys, in order to benefit the big guys in the monopolistic capital and organized labor. Want another more recent example? Walmart endorsement of minimum wage law . . . as a way to strain its competition smaller retailers and grocers that pay minimum wage because WMT itself actually pays substantially above minimum wage already. When a political intervention is introduced into the market place, you can bet on the big guys grabbing onto it much more forcefully than the little guys can.
I have worked in the high tech business for over 30 years (started in computer hardware, now in software and services) and there have been no unions in our business- and we have one become one of the premier industries in the country/world. And yes, little job security and few pension plans (only the oldest IT companies like IBM, Unisys have them). But few in our industry complain, because the industry and opportunities in it are growing so much (even with the outsourcing of lower end tasks to India and other countries).
I was a young kid in 1959 in Buffalo when the United Steel Workers were on strike against Bethlehem Steel- and the strike was settled giving the workers 13 weeks off (!!!) every 5 years. And I remember my Father commenting that the settlement would probably be the deathknell for that industry- i.e., how could they be competitive giving their workers that kind of compenssation. And indeed, the steel mills have long been closed, the workers have long been laid off. The unions can be too aggressive and they are writing their own obituary if they demand too much. Sad but true, especially in these days of global sourcing.
So in essence, what you are saying is that the employees basically should set the wages. Interesting concept. So why stop at $14 an hour - make it $100 an hour. And if it is good for one group, why not $100 an hour for everyone. Of course this would not work in many an way. First of all you have a whole worldly millions of works making less money, and thus everything would be imported. Ummm, maybe no imports, due to everyone losing employment, and thus no money to import anything. If you really think it through, if every person in America went Union, and made the same wage, the inflation level would match the wage increases within a short - a very short time anyway. Thus the economics of a minimum wage increase not really changing anything. No getting ahead relies on others not making as much. It will means you may be adding education, or have some different job skills, and the company being very profitable over all may be able to support higher wages. Think about it. While you may make extra money as a UAW worker, or say a Union plumber, if everyone was indeed making that much, your advantage goes to zero net gain. Inflation levels it a gain of nada. So I guess what you are really wanting here is group, unit, gang, whatever the term having a right to set a wage scale and not the same for every worker in America. The real focus is your enclave, and not the community, state or county as a whole in regards to standard of living. If the scabs, as you say, suddenly all joined a union, made the better wage in every field of employment, in every shop or store say, then the price of goods would match any wage increase, or worse than that, those products would be imported and those stores would not be in business. So the whole concept has its limits. If you are in a Union, like say the auto or electrical union, and making more money, it would be hard to argue that it was a bad move in any fashion, since you will be making a better living. It is very easy to understand how people would love to be a member. But an independent electrician say may offer his or her services for 25% less. Would you say there should be no independent electricians working?
Loren, I know it sounds like I'm advocating employees setting the wages, but that isn't really the case, otherwise they would be making more than they do, right ? I think some are taking what I said way out of context. If every american made a standard of the world wage in their field, we would economically be the most powerful country in the world by a long-ways. We would generate the most tax revenue, have the most buying power of any country. As a reference point I will use the Norweigans, Switzerland, as examples as being benchmarks for standard of livings. Luxenburg, I think has the highest per capita income so they can be included in the benchmark. They all are socialist country's. Yes, I already know they have alot less people, but aiming for their standard of living for every american can only be achieved by overhualing are current system and making education the #1 priority for every american. I as an american hope we would shoot for that goal for the good of our country.
I know that I sound like a devout Socialist, and I suppose I am one in my way of thinking. brightness, and I, for example want our country to be as strong as possible, but our approach is quite different. Whether brightness, or I, is right it is purely moot at this present time.
I will also note that a independent electrician for example might be able to undercut a large contractor, but he won't be able to handle the large jobs like a big contractor. Also I would say that even many companys that want a job done right will hire union electricians, plumbers, etc. because they are certified and have to go get the latest training and safety classes to keep their union journeymens card valid. So yes they are willing to pay the extra dough for these people. The union workers are cocky about being the best. I see them at work, and they are kinda arrogant about their knowledge and ability. I'm that way about knowing my job. We have a sense of pride at being the elites in our field. My father was really cocky at being the best at his job and if you talked to anyone that worked with him they would say your dad is sorely missed at the plant. Management took for granted how good he was at his job.
So the question is Loren, just because socialist country's have a "standard of the world" wage earning power, does the fruit cost more at the store ? Does the car cost more at the dealership ? I would say sure does. But are they making more income, than they are paying out versus our citizens ? I would say yes to that also. My family members in Norway, for example own 2 homes, one in Larvik (city) 1 in the mountains (vacation) Buy 2 new cars usually Audi's Quattro's every few years, and take family vacations outside of Norway, every year. I say their form of government is working better than ours IMHO. I will also note they are considered "middle class" in Norway.
To not start a "national healthcare" debate, but it does need to be mentioned. GM, would keep the plants here in the U.S. vs shipping them to Canada and perhaps even Mexico, if they didn't have to fully fund very expensive employee healthcare. This is one topic of many, the Big 3 CEO's want to meet with president Bush, about.
If a company truly is paying too little, eventually their workforce will not be on the same skill level, and performance. Paying too little, just like paying too much, will come back to bite them. Union or not to go Union will always be a debate with both sides putting up some good arguments. I am merely saying that if everyone got together, and demanded say $100 per hour tomorrow, instant inflation karma kicks in and it would be a net gain of zero.
Agree.....However that doesn't mean the mininum wage shouldn't keep up with the current times. It's pretty sad when states individually have to raise the mininum wage so employees in low-paying fields can have some sort of way to make it. How are these people suppose to put gas in the car ? People are selling their band instruments from high school around here so they can afford to buy petro or fix their beater.
As for violence, I thought that curbing suffering, injustice, bad conditions, intimidation of workers, and such are the goals of forming a Union.
That is true, but crossing their picket line is like slapping them in the face and thus people will get very angry. The strike will fail if they just allow scabs to cross. :mad:
Companies should do no harm, just as their employees. Works both ways. Showing how conditions bettered for the working class under the Union years is a selling point.
A company down here ran "help wanted" ads in the paper while the union was out on strike. They are inviting violence, and thus should be responsible.
The unions can be too aggressive and they are writing their own obituary if they demand too much. Sad but true, especially in these days of global sourcing.
Agree 100% Asking for 13-weeks off every 5 years was as stupid and greedy as some corporate "suits" :mad:
Having people intimidating others with baseball bats would in fact set that cause back a decade. Best to promote a positive side - working to make better product, with the company, and for the consumer. Win hearts and minds. -Loren
Thankfully Loren, we live in times where the baseball bats have been left in the dug-out. People are educated enough in most cases not to cross picket lines. The union-mob connections of the past scare most would be scabs. You mention Jimmy Hoffa, and ears perk up and a image of a Al Capone, type gunning you down appears in the brain
The Goodyear Tire strike will be something to watch. Will their be a shortage of tires this fall for the new vehicles ? Did GM, stockpile extra tires just in case of a strike ? I hope we get some answers soon ! :surprise:
The problem is that management has a baseball bat mentality and unions are expected to play softball on the girls' team. I note the AK STeel strike in Middletown, Ohio, where management simply locked out workers getting close to a year ago now. The bring in scabs each day.
Recently management made a public comment that they didn't lock out the workers. I believe the attitude was the workers didn't accept what we offered them, so it's their fault. This is in response to the county sheriff's having taken an ad in the newspaper encouraging management to negotiate and settle. This is because of the high cost to his department and the community in terms of bankrupcies, sheriff sales on homes, and other social costs.
This is the same sheriff who arrested illegals because the Feds won't do anything. He has billboards saying they and the employers illegally using them aren't welcome.
Read the Constitution again. The Congress shall make no laws restricting speech . . . private owners of properties like Edmunds.com can indeed have very explicit rules on what can be said on their property.
How many of you will be in the market for a new 2007' GM this year ?
I would like to know your car choice. Was the new powertrain warranty a selling point to choose a GM car over a competitor since you are considering a GMer ?
How many of you will be in the market for a new 2007' GM this year ? Even important question would be: Now that UAW has warned about striking at Delphi, threatening to bring GM down with it, how many of you would want to invest your hard earned money (unless you are UAW) on a GM product. I'd say wait until contract negotiations are over with, you might be able to pick up late model GM vehicle at the fraction of original price.
Union contractors are largely competitive for government contracts only nowadays. Why? Because the payer is not spending his/her own money.
Whether socialism or free enterprise works better in real life is hardly a moot point when we are discussing policy recommendations. All historical evidence seems to indicate that free enterprise works better. Norwegian economy is much more free enterprising and less socialistic than next-door Sweden in the last two decades . . . and it shows in their economic performance . . . of course, when compared to the US, the fact that 5 million Norwegian are blessed with with one of the largest oil production site in Europe certainly helps.
How are these people suppose to put gas in the car ?
Exactly. How are people supposed to put gas in the car if they are out of jobs? All minimum wage law does is banning all job opportunities below a certain pay scale threshold. If the job's productivity does not warrant such a pay threshold, the job is simply gone. Why is the issue so dear to the Union? Because it makes their own high pay just a wee bit more competitive. It's the oldest trick in the guilds: mandating the lowest selling price in a cartel.
That is true, but crossing their picket line is like slapping them in the face and thus people will get very angry. The strike will fail if they just allow scabs to cross.
Well then, should employers be allowed to set up fences to lock employees in the workshops if employer is only willing to pay less than the market wage? Whether a strike succeeds or fails should be dependent on whether the strikers are truely indispensable . . . what about the valuable skills that you keep harping about? Isn't it just wee bit self-contradictory if you believe strikes would fail without threat of violence to maintain the picket line?
A company down here ran "help wanted" ads in the paper while the union was out on strike. They are inviting violence, and thus should be responsible.
Not at all. They are inviting people who are willing to work. The next time you go into a store, should the store owner have the right to detain you because you decide their price is too high and is about to shop next door? I'm sure that's a slap in the face for the store owner.
They will only strike, if the judge throws out the contract. It's in the Judges hands now. The UAW, isn't fighting the plant closings any longer, and help Delphi get rid of most of its NA workforce through retirements, buy-outs, transfers. As Getterfinger, said their is nothing more to negotiate. Their isn't even enough full-time workers to fill up the 8 remaining plants when the other 21 close.
I still think GM, stock is worth investing in because GM, rapidly is looking for other suppliers since Rick Wagoner, dislikes Steve Miller.
It comes down to this issue: do the property owners own their homes and factories, or does the sheriff? Any chance some of the houses are being foreclosed because rental income was stopped by those arrests? Foreclosure takes place because real estate price drop (otherwise, a sale would simply avoid foreclosure) . . . having an anti-immigration (immigration to the town, not the country; i.e. migration into the town, regardless whether the migrant is US citizen or not) certainly does not help occupancy rate or real estate price. Looks like the Sheriff has himself to blame for his own meddling in the economy, probably for his own political gain.
"Well #1 in this country workers have rights, and if they go out on strike which is legal they are holding out for better terms."
Well, as a worker in this country (with 'rights'), isn't one of those rights the right to work for whomever I want, so long as that employer and I can reach an agreement?
Isn't the Union INTERFERING with my right to work?
Yes, I know the strikers are holding out (extorting?) for 'better terms'. But what if I, as a non-Union member decide "gee, I think their existing terms were quite fair and I'd be more than willing to work for those wages/benefits".
What about the non-Union workers rights? Are you saying that one MUST join a Union to have workers rights?
BTW - you never did answer how one determines if a wage is "fair".
> anti-immigration (immigration to the town, not the country; i.e. migration into the town, regardless whether the migrant is US citizen or not) certainly does not help occupancy rate or real estate price. Looks like the Sheriff has himself to blame for his own meddling in the economy, probably for his own political gain
Probably a lack of real world exposure but the occupancy by illegals and some other groups isn't low numbers. They tend to turn a 1500 house they rent into home for 15. Other homeowners in the area find their properties rapidly depreciated.
Documented in reports in the Greater Cinci area over the summer.
You can ridicule the sheriff but we're happy he's in the area doing what the previous two presidents didn't set up to do because it wasn't politically expedient.
This really blew up when P&G got caught with it's "Pampers" down with a bunch of illegals working on construction at new sits around Cincy many months ago. People began to realize the illegals weren't just a problem "somewhere else" in the country.
People lose homes because they can't pay the mortgages since they're out on strike.
This stike lockout is relevant because of the Delphi and GM plants we have around the greater area. If a Delphi strike occurs, I expect it will be very nasty. People in school buses won't be driving through the gates to go in to work like they are at AK Steel.
There is rarely pure socialist or pure capitalism country, despite what the rhetorics say. Norway is heck lot more free-enterprising than next-door Sweden in the last couple decades. That's why Norwegian economy has grown much faster than that of Sweden over the same time period. Swededish households used to hire Norwegian nannies . . . now it's the other way around.
You are not Lou Dobbs. Dobbs get paid for selling ads and clicks . . . that's why he does what he does. Real life has a way of doing its own thing regardless how we see it. People go to work for their own profit/wage, regardless whose disciple you or I am.
Well, as a worker in this country (with 'rights'), isn't one of those rights the right to work for whomever I want, so long as that employer and I can reach an agreement?
Sure is as long as the company doesn't have a bargaining contract for the job you are applying for.
Isn't the Union INTERFERING with my right to work?
You don't have a "right to work" in all states. The passage of that law in some states, has damaged union power and thus look at our failing grades in our economy for average people. :sick:
rorr, you have a choice to not join a union in a right to work state such as our lovely Texas. I however would hate living off of the hardwork done by others for my personal gain.
Yes, I know the strikers are holding out (extorting?) for 'better terms'. But what if I, as a non-Union member decide "gee, I think their existing terms were quite fair and I'd be more than willing to work for those wages/benefits".
Well go cross the picket line, but plan on having the worse work enviroment you could ever imagine. Nobody will say hi to you once the strike is over and plan on getting your car keyed with the words scab on it. Is it really worth it ?
What about the non-Union workers rights? Are you saying that one MUST join a Union to have workers rights?
There is federal laws on the book for worker rights ad protections. However corporate bought politicians with "R's" after there names have got rid of alot of labor laws in this country. :sick:
BTW - you never did answer how one determines if a wage is "fair".
Fair, has alot to do with the "cost of living" for the area. It would take alot close examination to break it down. The type of field and the corporate size and wealth also play a part into "fair" A fair wage for a average american factory worker would be 5-day 40 hr. $40-60K with good benefits and retirement IMHO ?
If I needed a car this year, I would look at the Aura. The warranty would be a selling point but I would still be concerned by the service that I've seen my family members get from GM. What good is a warranty if you have to jump through hoops to have it honored? I was pretty underwhelmed by the G6 that I drove so I'd reserve decision on the Aura until I drove it.
I'm not in the market for a car, but there's my answer.
You are not Lou Dobbs. Dobbs get paid for selling ads and clicks . . . that's why he does what he does. Real life has a way of doing its own thing regardless how we see it. People go to work for their own profit/wage, regardless whose disciple you or I am.
I love Lou Dobbs, to death. He is my hero. I feel if he were president he would go down as the greatest in our nations history. I can see the compassion that man has. He really actually cares about this country's people and is a "great american".
I work for a high tech company headquarter in Norway and there are some American nationals that have moved to Oslo to work there and brought their families with them. And everyone of them seems to love the place- great schools, low crime, big government benefits (all with outragiously high taxes, but what the heck). Norway doesn't have nearly the diversity that we have in North America, but I guess that you can get used to it.
And I am in the market for a car this year, and nothing from GM this year interests me- I want a mid-size sedan getting 24mpg in the city with about 95+ cubic feet interior space. If the Aura had that kind of city mileage, I would consider it. And the Malibu/Cobalt/G6 have the rental car image and don't seem to have the refinement of the Accord/Mazda6/Altima that are on my "short list"
Having lived in Boston for over a decade, I have plenty exposure to illegal immigrants. In the real world, it's very hard to tell who is illegal who is legal. Most of them tend to live just like the rest of us, not caring too much about a piece of paper in their daily lives. . . the difference being that we have no paper requirement whereas they do because the way the law is set up. Most illegal immigrants in this country are not those desperate border crossers from Mexico that we see on TV. Most illegal immigrants in this country are people who came to colleges or high-paying specialist jobs or simply tourists who over-stayed their visa or took on a job when they are not supposed to. You'd be surprised by how many Canadians are in Ohio illegally.
Your statement "people began to realize the illegals weren't just a problem somewhere else in the country" goes to show that people in your area has very little exposure to the real issue.
The whole sceneio of arresting "illegals" who want to work, and people lose homes because they can't pay the mortgages since they are out on strike goes to show just how dysfunctional the whole mess has become. In a properly functional economy, even failed strikers should be able to sell their houses to the replacement workers to avoid a foreclosure. Rules should be set up to get people to work. The irrational double whammy of arresting people wanting to work and promoting refusal to work obviously has ground the local economy to a halt. . . that's why you have rising foreclosures.
I work for a high tech company headquarter in Norway and there are some American nationals that have moved to Oslo to work there and brought their families with them. And everyone of them seems to love the place- great schools, low crime, big government benefits (all with outragiously high taxes, but what the heck). Norway doesn't have nearly the diversity that we have in North America, but I guess that you can get used to it.
WOW, thats cool. I was under the impression one had to prove his Norweigan heritage to move there ? They must of changed that law ? If I didn't live here, that would be my 2nd choice
And I am in the market for a car this year, and nothing from GM this year interests me- I want a mid-size sedan getting 24mpg in the city with about 95+ cubic feet interior space. If the Aura had that kind of city mileage, I would consider it. And the Malibu/Cobalt/G6 have the rental car image and don't seem to have the refinement of the Accord/Mazda6/Altima that are on my "short list"
Wait for the Aura hybrid. I think it will be available this year, but I could be wrong ?
Comments
I read somewhere that after WW II, Harley went to Japan and taught them about heat treating metal. If true, it sure came back and bit them.
For a while, it sure did. A lot of it was also public perception (Hell's Angels, etc.) and marketing ("You meet the nicest people on a Honda). But today, H-D sells every bike they can produce, even though they have increased capacity and added shifts. Ford & GM would do well to study what they have done, as they are the most profitable vehicle manufacturer in the US, if not the world. I think they did it by going back to what they do best (large heavy cruisers), and leaving the rest of the market to the others.
Come on, you've got to be kidding.
I was into hi end audio equipment until I was stupid. One cut on a CD at too much volume and my hearing was shot. Just the rattle of dishes was like daggers in my ears. Be very careful. Years later I can finally listen at low volume. You don't know what you have until you lose it. Racing various types of vehicles didn't help either. Anyway, I have a ton of audio equipment still lying around, much of it vintage, including a pair if Audio Research AR3a speakers that revolutionarized speaker design. They sound amazing even today. I inherited them and one Dynaco system when an older friend died. I built my other set. Here again, if you don't have to have the latest and greatest, you can have lots of toys. Just be patient and buy right. I don't have high priced hobbies like golfing, flying, or boating. I bought my Atma-Sphere amps from the designer as a box of parts and 2 chassis when Ralph changed the design. We then modified the design, going from 10 output tubes per channel to 18. Later, Ralph came out with a 20 tube design. Anyone can buy a pair built for $38K. ;-) The address is in a previous post. Investing was another hobby that helped.
In civilian life, that's called Totalitarianism. It used to be a much admired idea back in the 1920's and 1930's (about the same time unions took real hold in the US). Simply did not work out very well in the big lab called real life (understatement of the day ;-)
The only country in the world that is still full hog embracing that idea nowadays is probably North Korea. It's a living example of why "unity," "eat, live, die, together" do not work, despite what the naive mind may think. What is often ingored in the naive way of thinking is that most decisions on resource allocation are very nebulous with long term consequences that the decision makers may not or can not possibly be aware of far in advance. Optimization usually takes place on small scale, incrementally and often unexpectedly. That's why monoculture and centralized decision making are bad bad ideas.
Talk about being connected...
I'm sure you received the same note from the host about not replying to each other. Please cease and desist. We are both guests here.
Well #1 in this country workers have rights, and if they go out on strike which is legal they are holding out for better terms. In most other democracy's crossing a picket- line is illegal. In this country the picketers make it illegal with a Easton, Louisville Slugger, Worth, Brass Knuckles. I hope being a scab, someday in this country becomes illegal. I might have to hold up a sign next march at my place.
I hope that kinda answers your question.
If I have to swing like dem' Tigers, I will. :shades:
Rocky
In civilian life, that's called Totalitarianism. It used to be a much admired idea back in the 1920's and 1930's (about the same time unions took real hold in the US). Simply did not work out very well in the big lab called real life (understatement of the day
The only country in the world that is still full hog embracing that idea nowadays is probably North Korea. It's a living example of why "unity," "eat, live, die, together" do not work, despite what the naive mind may think.
Umm, Unions exist in CIVILIAN life, they CANNOT exist in a totalitian state. Okay, so it didn't work for Poland and Welch Welensa, did it? (Hence the breakdown of Communism) Didn't work for my Dad and his dad (and even his dad) when they were getting $0.50 per ton, cleaned and out of the mine (not that you'd know what that means), in 1929. It did , but it took another 20 years... Have you not heard that history repeats itself? Give the big guys their way, and they will exploit the little guy every time. Find me an exception in history... I didn't think so.
Well, if you had a union it wouldn't be a problem. It would be nearly impossible to fire them anyway. ;-)
Come on, you've got to be kidding.
Why, you don't have a TV in the living room AND your bedroom??? For some people, music is more important than TV...
Rocky
I have a TV in my bathroom too.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061011/BUSINESS01/610110421/10- 14
Rocky
If a company truly is paying too little, eventually their workforce will not be on the same skill level, and performance. Paying too little, just like paying too much, will come back to bite them. Union or not to go Union will always be a debate with both sides putting up some good arguments. I am merely saying that if everyone got together, and demanded say $100 per hour tomorrow, instant inflation karma kicks in and it would be a net gain of zero.
As for violence, I thought that curbing suffering, injustice, bad conditions, intimidation of workers, and such are the goals of forming a Union. Companies should do no harm, just as their employees. Works both ways. Showing how conditions bettered for the working class under the Union years is a selling point. Having people intimidating others with baseball bats would in fact set that cause back a decade. Best to promote a positive side - working to make better product, with the company, and for the consumer. Win hearts and minds.
-Loren
My daughter went through 4 years of college and works in Nuclear medicine. She has gotten numerous generous raises and makes a very good wage.
Her husband is a high school graduate and a sheet metal worker. Union. He just completed his schooling. Guess what? He makes more than she does. What is wrong with this picture?
Our largest plumbing house is non-union, and is growing in leaps and bounds. Union shops are drying up. Are their days numbered? If so, maybe it's due to the previous example because they are pricing themselves out of competition.
Give the big guys their way, and they will exploit the little guy every time.
And Unions would be just another arrow in the big guys' quiver to shoot down the little guys. A classic example would be GM's embracing of unions in the 1950's . . . as a way to bankrupt the smaller competition. Who ultimately suffer when that happened? American consumers and (would be) workers alike, the little guys, in order to benefit the big guys in the monopolistic capital and organized labor. Want another more recent example? Walmart endorsement of minimum wage law . . . as a way to strain its competition smaller retailers and grocers that pay minimum wage because WMT itself actually pays substantially above minimum wage already. When a political intervention is introduced into the market place, you can bet on the big guys grabbing onto it much more forcefully than the little guys can.
I was a young kid in 1959 in Buffalo when the United Steel Workers were on strike against Bethlehem Steel- and the strike was settled giving the workers 13 weeks off (!!!) every 5 years. And I remember my Father commenting that the settlement would probably be the deathknell for that industry- i.e., how could they be competitive giving their workers that kind of compenssation. And indeed, the steel mills have long been closed, the workers have long been laid off. The unions can be too aggressive and they are writing their own obituary if they demand too much. Sad but true, especially in these days of global sourcing.
Loren, I know it sounds like I'm advocating employees setting the wages, but that isn't really the case, otherwise they would be making more than they do, right ? I think some are taking what I said way out of context. If every american made a standard of the world wage in their field, we would economically be the most powerful country in the world by a long-ways. We would generate the most tax revenue, have the most buying power of any country. As a reference point I will use the Norweigans, Switzerland, as examples as being benchmarks for standard of livings. Luxenburg, I think has the highest per capita income so they can be included in the benchmark. They all are socialist country's. Yes, I already know they have alot less people, but aiming for their standard of living for every american can only be achieved by overhualing are current system and making education the #1 priority for every american. I as an american hope we would shoot for that goal for the good of our country.
I know that I sound like a devout Socialist, and I suppose I am one in my way of thinking.
I will also note that a independent electrician for example might be able to undercut a large contractor, but he won't be able to handle the large jobs like a big contractor. Also I would say that even many companys that want a job done right will hire union electricians, plumbers, etc. because they are certified and have to go get the latest training and safety classes to keep their union journeymens card valid. So yes they are willing to pay the extra dough for these people. The union workers are cocky about being the best. I see them at work, and they are kinda arrogant about their knowledge and ability.
We have a sense of pride at being the elites in our field. My father was really cocky at being the best at his job and if you talked to anyone that worked with him they would say your dad is sorely missed at the plant. Management took for granted how good he was at his job.
So the question is Loren, just because socialist country's have a "standard of the world" wage earning power, does the fruit cost more at the store ? Does the car cost more at the dealership ? I would say sure does. But are they making more income, than they are paying out versus our citizens ? I would say yes to that also.
My family members in Norway, for example own 2 homes, one in Larvik (city) 1 in the mountains (vacation) Buy 2 new cars usually Audi's Quattro's every few years, and take family vacations outside of Norway, every year. I say their form of government is working better than ours IMHO. I will also note they are considered "middle class" in Norway.
To not start a "national healthcare" debate, but it does need to be mentioned. GM, would keep the plants here in the U.S. vs shipping them to Canada and perhaps even Mexico, if they didn't have to fully fund very expensive employee healthcare. This is one topic of many, the Big 3 CEO's want to meet with president Bush, about.
If a company truly is paying too little, eventually their workforce will not be on the same skill level, and performance. Paying too little, just like paying too much, will come back to bite them. Union or not to go Union will always be a debate with both sides putting up some good arguments. I am merely saying that if everyone got together, and demanded say $100 per hour tomorrow, instant inflation karma kicks in and it would be a net gain of zero.
Agree.....However that doesn't mean the mininum wage shouldn't keep up with the current times. It's pretty sad when states individually have to raise the mininum wage so employees in low-paying fields can have some sort of way to make it. How are these people suppose to put gas in the car ? People are selling their band instruments from high school around here so they can afford to buy petro or fix their beater.
As for violence, I thought that curbing suffering, injustice, bad conditions, intimidation of workers, and such are the goals of forming a Union.
That is true, but crossing their picket line is like slapping them in the face and thus people will get very angry. The strike will fail if they just allow scabs to cross. :mad:
Companies should do no harm, just as their employees. Works both ways. Showing how conditions bettered for the working class under the Union years is a selling point.
A company down here ran "help wanted" ads in the paper while the union was out on strike. They are inviting violence, and thus should be responsible.
Agree 100% Asking for 13-weeks off every 5 years was as stupid and greedy as some corporate "suits" :mad:
Rocky
Having people intimidating others with baseball bats would in fact set that cause back a decade. Best to promote a positive side - working to make better product, with the company, and for the consumer. Win hearts and minds.
-Loren
Thankfully Loren, we live in times where the baseball bats have been left in the dug-out. People are educated enough in most cases not to cross picket lines. The union-mob connections of the past scare most would be scabs. You mention Jimmy Hoffa, and ears perk up and a image of a Al Capone, type gunning you down appears in the brain
The Goodyear Tire strike will be something to watch. Will their be a shortage of tires this fall for the new vehicles ? Did GM, stockpile extra tires just in case of a strike ? I hope we get some answers soon ! :surprise:
Rocky
Recently management made a public comment that they didn't lock out the workers. I believe the attitude was the workers didn't accept what we offered them, so it's their fault. This is in response to the county sheriff's having taken an ad in the newspaper encouraging management to negotiate and settle. This is because of the high cost to his department and the community in terms of bankrupcies, sheriff sales on homes, and other social costs.
This is the same sheriff who arrested illegals because the Feds won't do anything. He has billboards saying they and the employers illegally using them aren't welcome.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
I would like to know your car choice. Was the new powertrain warranty a selling point to choose a GM car over a competitor since you are considering a GMer ?
Rocky
Even important question would be:
Now that UAW has warned about striking at Delphi, threatening to bring GM down with it, how many of you would want to invest your hard earned money (unless you are UAW) on a GM product. I'd say wait until contract negotiations are over with, you might be able to pick up late model GM vehicle at the fraction of original price.
Whether socialism or free enterprise works better in real life is hardly a moot point when we are discussing policy recommendations. All historical evidence seems to indicate that free enterprise works better. Norwegian economy is much more free enterprising and less socialistic than next-door Sweden in the last two decades . . . and it shows in their economic performance . . . of course, when compared to the US, the fact that 5 million Norwegian are blessed with with one of the largest oil production site in Europe certainly helps.
How are these people suppose to put gas in the car ?
Exactly. How are people supposed to put gas in the car if they are out of jobs? All minimum wage law does is banning all job opportunities below a certain pay scale threshold. If the job's productivity does not warrant such a pay threshold, the job is simply gone. Why is the issue so dear to the Union? Because it makes their own high pay just a wee bit more competitive. It's the oldest trick in the guilds: mandating the lowest selling price in a cartel.
That is true, but crossing their picket line is like slapping them in the face and thus people will get very angry. The strike will fail if they just allow scabs to cross.
Well then, should employers be allowed to set up fences to lock employees in the workshops if employer is only willing to pay less than the market wage? Whether a strike succeeds or fails should be dependent on whether the strikers are truely indispensable . . . what about the valuable skills that you keep harping about? Isn't it just wee bit self-contradictory if you believe strikes would fail without threat of violence to maintain the picket line?
A company down here ran "help wanted" ads in the paper while the union was out on strike. They are inviting violence, and thus should be responsible.
Not at all. They are inviting people who are willing to work. The next time you go into a store, should the store owner have the right to detain you because you decide their price is too high and is about to shop next door? I'm sure that's a slap in the face for the store owner.
I still think GM, stock is worth investing in because GM, rapidly is looking for other suppliers since Rick Wagoner, dislikes Steve Miller.
Rocky
Rocky
Well, as a worker in this country (with 'rights'), isn't one of those rights the right to work for whomever I want, so long as that employer and I can reach an agreement?
Isn't the Union INTERFERING with my right to work?
Yes, I know the strikers are holding out (extorting?) for 'better terms'. But what if I, as a non-Union member decide "gee, I think their existing terms were quite fair and I'd be more than willing to work for those wages/benefits".
What about the non-Union workers rights? Are you saying that one MUST join a Union to have workers rights?
BTW - you never did answer how one determines if a wage is "fair".
So IYHO Norway, a Socialist-Capitalist country ?
Rocky
Probably a lack of real world exposure but the occupancy by illegals and some other groups isn't low numbers. They tend to turn a 1500 house they rent into home for 15. Other homeowners in the area find their properties rapidly depreciated.
Documented in reports in the Greater Cinci area over the summer.
You can ridicule the sheriff but we're happy he's in the area doing what the previous two presidents didn't set up to do because it wasn't politically expedient.
This really blew up when P&G got caught with it's "Pampers" down with a bunch of illegals working on construction at new sits around Cincy many months ago. People began to realize the illegals weren't just a problem "somewhere else" in the country.
People lose homes because they can't pay the mortgages since they're out on strike.
This stike lockout is relevant because of the Delphi and GM plants we have around the greater area. If a Delphi strike occurs, I expect it will be very nasty. People in school buses won't be driving through the gates to go in to work like they are at AK Steel.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You are not Lou Dobbs. Dobbs get paid for selling ads and clicks . . . that's why he does what he does. Real life has a way of doing its own thing regardless how we see it. People go to work for their own profit/wage, regardless whose disciple you or I am.
Sure is as long as the company doesn't have a bargaining contract for the job you are applying for.
Isn't the Union INTERFERING with my right to work?
You don't have a "right to work" in all states. The passage of that law in some states, has damaged union power and thus look at our failing grades in our economy for average people. :sick:
rorr, you have a choice to not join a union in a right to work state such as our lovely Texas. I however would hate living off of the hardwork done by others for my personal gain.
Yes, I know the strikers are holding out (extorting?) for 'better terms'. But what if I, as a non-Union member decide "gee, I think their existing terms were quite fair and I'd be more than willing to work for those wages/benefits".
Well go cross the picket line, but plan on having the worse work enviroment you could ever imagine. Nobody will say hi to you once the strike is over and plan on getting your car keyed with the words scab on it. Is it really worth it ?
What about the non-Union workers rights? Are you saying that one MUST join a Union to have workers rights?
There is federal laws on the book for worker rights ad protections. However corporate bought politicians with "R's" after there names have got rid of alot of labor laws in this country. :sick:
BTW - you never did answer how one determines if a wage is "fair".
Fair, has alot to do with the "cost of living" for the area. It would take alot close examination to break it down. The type of field and the corporate size and wealth also play a part into "fair" A fair wage for a average american factory worker would be 5-day 40 hr. $40-60K with good benefits and retirement IMHO ?
Rocky
Rocky
I'm not in the market for a car, but there's my answer.
I love Lou Dobbs, to death. He is my hero.
"great american".
Rocky
Rocky
And I am in the market for a car this year, and nothing from GM this year interests me- I want a mid-size sedan getting 24mpg in the city with about 95+ cubic feet interior space. If the Aura had that kind of city mileage, I would consider it. And the Malibu/Cobalt/G6 have the rental car image and don't seem to have the refinement of the Accord/Mazda6/Altima that are on my "short list"
Your statement "people began to realize the illegals weren't just a problem somewhere else in the country" goes to show that people in your area has very little exposure to the real issue.
The whole sceneio of arresting "illegals" who want to work, and people lose homes because they can't pay the mortgages since they are out on strike goes to show just how dysfunctional the whole mess has become. In a properly functional economy, even failed strikers should be able to sell their houses to the replacement workers to avoid a foreclosure. Rules should be set up to get people to work. The irrational double whammy of arresting people wanting to work and promoting refusal to work obviously has ground the local economy to a halt. . . that's why you have rising foreclosures.
WOW, thats cool.
And I am in the market for a car this year, and nothing from GM this year interests me- I want a mid-size sedan getting 24mpg in the city with about 95+ cubic feet interior space. If the Aura had that kind of city mileage, I would consider it. And the Malibu/Cobalt/G6 have the rental car image and don't seem to have the refinement of the Accord/Mazda6/Altima that are on my "short list"
Wait for the Aura hybrid. I think it will be available this year, but I could be wrong ?
Rocky