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General Motors discussions
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Right to work and right-to-work laws are two separate issues. The right of an individual to sell his labor is enbodied in the "pursuit of happiness."
Well go cross the picket line, but plan on having the worse work enviroment you could ever imagine. Nobody will say hi to you once the strike is over and plan on getting your car keyed with the words scab on it. Is it really worth it ?
In other words, more threats of violence.
Fair, has alot to do with the "cost of living" for the area. It would take alot close examination to break it down. The type of field and the corporate size and wealth also play a part into "fair" A fair wage for a average american factory worker would be 5-day 40 hr. $40-60K with good benefits and retirement IMHO ?
Who do you suppose would be entrusted to do all that close examination? aside from the market place? The number you are suggesting is self-contradictory to the first half of the same paragraph. $40k is a lot of money for someone living in the Dakotas . . . $60k is a pittance for living in Manhattan. Good benefits and retirement is simply a short hand for promises made on behalf of a third party who is expected to render such services . . . ie. no guarantee that third party will be there when you need it.
It's interesting to note that many ultra-rich profess compassion for the poor, and are quite socialistic in their political advocacies. Nothing is really preventing them from giving their wealth away in voluntary donations to the IRS. They don't do it because all their socialistic advocacy comes down to institutionalizing their own privilleged positions in the market place so they do not have to compete against upstart challengers. That's why practically all the "Robber Barons" eventually learned to play the game of parlaying their economic success into political dynasties.
Lou, has came out against the free-trade laws, and thus calls them "unfree trade laws" for american buisness's and workers. He often talks about the situations going on at the Big 3, and how it affects the middle class.
Rocky
Are these opinions or facts ? Where are you getting this data from ?
Rocky
What does that have to do with anything I had to say ????? :confuse:
Rocky
Like I mentioned before, absent a free market place where the little guys get (some may argue only half) a chance to make some decisions for themselves, the masses would just be doped by charletons of various brands exercising rights on their behalf; ie. controlling their lives.
So, a "right to work" is.....bad? Damaged Union power: in other words, companies began moving their operations AWAY from Non "right to work" states into states which *gasp* allow it's citizens to work without being in a Union (hmmmmm, kinda like 'outsourcing' work to another country, first companies 'outsourced' their work to non-union states...). Maybe those jobs would have stayed at home if the Unions weren't trying to bleed business dry.
"Well go cross the picket line, but plan on having the worse work enviroment you could ever imagine."
Ah, so intimidation DOES have a place in the modern work arena. Whatever happened to the concept of individual freedom?
"Fair, has alot to do with the "cost of living" for the area."
Cost of living to what standard? Should the burger flipper who dropped out of HS and learned his job in 30 minutes be paid a "fair wage" that reflects the 'cost of living'? What about the individual who spent 4-6 years in college/graduate school getting an Engineering Degree who is responsible for design work which, if done incorrectly, could kill innocent people? Should his wages be tied to the 'cost of living'? What the 'cost of living' is SHOULD have ZIP, ZERO, NADA to do with what a 'fair' wage is.
BTW - a "fair" wage would be a wage which reflects the value added to a product/service by the employee. How is that value determined? By the job market.
An example: let's say you want to hire somebody to mow your yard. Now, if you were covered up by kids knocking on your door 3 times a week offering to mow your yard for $20, would you hire a lawn service to do it for $50? Or would you consider the $20 to be 'fair'? And what if the neighborhood bully decided that HE wanted all the work (for $40 a yard- hey, call it a 'cost of living' increase; those Louisville Sluggers are EXPENSIVE) and threatened to beat up anybody who would do it for less?
North Korea is a country where prices are set at "fair" levels as are wages, mandated by the government. Everyone gets free education, free health care, free retirement, and free housing. Every worker is required to join unions. Imports are severely restricted because the country wants to be "self-sufficient."
In reality, of course, free education, free health care , free retirement and free housing eventually become only about as good as you pay for :-)
The very essence of collective bargaining is coersion and intimidation, toward both the employer and dissenting employees (or prospective employees).
I remember this from a visit to Alcoa. My company was non-union, but I decided I wanted to do that too, so I just deferred taking one week of vacation per year, and soon I had built my own reserve. Didn't bleed my company to death either. It doesn't have to be done by a union, although they gave me the idea. Being young and naive, my gut still told me that this was over the top.
When our country and economy hit a 1929' depression, I will just say I told you so.
Rocky
Not really. 07 Camry. You push em away, it's hard to get em back. If I was on the fence, warranty would matter, and I assume it will help GM - if it doesn't break em due to a crappy product. Hopefully they have confidence that their products have improved enough. This is probably a good way to state that. I wish them luck.
Rocky
And I wonder how much of this situation was due to over the top union demands in the past.
(1) Federal Reserve profligacy in the late 1920's
(2) Protectionism rearing its ugly head worldwide . . . making all that excesss capacity built with cheap money in previous year all the more redundant. That's why the stock market crashed.
What you are promoting is essentially a replay of that mistake: protectionism gumming up world trade.
BTW, neither RORR or I are twisting your words. We are just pointing out the flip side of the same coin that you are refusing to see. Every policy choice has consequences, both intended and unintended. Ignoring the inevitable unintended consequences is not mature decision making.
A lot of people my age were just getting their first jobs, and one of the jobs available for young kids with no experience was a cashier or bagboy at the local supermarkets. One chain required that you join a union to work there. One of my friends took a job there and told everyone how the union was gonna do this and that for him, and we were all stupid for not joining the union and being exploited by the evil supermarket chains.
All this lasted until he got his first paycheck. He got the same minimum wage as everyone else, less 5% or so for union dues.
He started flipping burgers the next day.
I've heard the same thing about the teachers union.
Turboshadow
The UAW worker built the company up into a great corporation and now the board of executives and the Steve miller, are going to off-shore buisness and try to make every dollar they can. If you want to blame that on the unions so be it. The UAW, workers made the best quality parts with the material and machinery they had. They desrve a slice of the pie. I see it no different than a collge graduate "suit" who's never worked anywhere outside of the classroom wanting a $100K salary for his first job.
Rocky
Rocky
But I disagree with you on the border-crosser part. Numbers show that most illegals are Mexicans. Tens of millions of them are here. There are fewer illegals from other countries - they too enter using the open Mexican and Canadian borders. Those who come legally seldom overstay because they know how to come here legally and the benefits of living in this country legally. And, again very few overstays compared to border-crossers. This doesn't mean overstaying isn't a problem - some 9-11 hijackers crossed borders to come here, some overstayed, and some both. Still, it's Mexicans mainly.
Question is why Mexicans come here. Of course, economical reasons are there. Mexico continues to suffer from corruption and violent crimes, and Mexican Govt. doesn't do anything to reduce these problems. Mexicans like Americans want to work hard for a better life for them and for their children. So they cross-over. It's more than money - average Mexicans hate corruption and violence as much as any civilized person does. Unfortunately, the Mexico has become a horrible place to live for average Mexicans because of crime and corruption.
Well, those who stay back in Mexico make good cars too - all the new Volkswagens made in Mexico look cool!
Rocky
As for currency, my ideal is no legal tender currency at all. No one should be required by law to take a piece of paper in return for the goods and service they have rendered. The market place had natural currencies for thousands of years before legal tender laws were introduced. They are called gold and silver. Every legal tender currency system eventually fail simply because the temptation to abuse it by the government is just too great.
Try FOX News for som balance. :-) Your bubble seems to be getting smaller and smaller. (OK, I'm ducking.)
I remember this from a visit to Alcoa. My company was non-union, but I decided I wanted to do that too, so I just deferred taking one week of vacation per year, and soon I had built my own reserve. Didn't bleed my company to death either. It doesn't have to be done by a union, although they gave me the idea. Being young and naive, my gut still told me that this was over the top.
Anericans NEED more vacation time. We are like a third-world contry when it comes to vacation time for employees. Austria, Denmark, and Finland average 30 days. France, Germany, and Norway average five weeks, while Belgium, Ireland, England, Holland, and Switzerland are at 20 days. Japan is 3 weeks on average. A lot of these contries have higher productivity rates than we do. That's because our workers are over-worked and burnt out. I recently read that someone who works 50 hours a week in reality gets little more done than some working 40 hours.
"Suits" will take care of one another. No different than a union.
Rocky
Another idealogy of the "mark"
What you want a computer chip in your wrist to swipe ?
Rocky
Rocky
you and I agree once again. This is why putting people on assembly lines for 12 hours in autoplants is really dangerous.
Rocky
Not all of them are bad
Rocky
People come from Mexico for the same reason that youths of the interior rural USA have a tendency to migrate to the coastal big cities. It's called pursuit of happpiness. Put it bluntly, it's the lure of money. The world money creation is literally centered on the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and distributed outward through the federal reserve system, then trade and banks. So long as the world uses the US Dollar as reserve currency, goods and service/labor tend to flow to this country to neutralize with money creation. Trade imbalance is a very artificial concept . . . it goes away if account for the money that we export. If we were shipping gold or silver or other commodity outbound, would the statistics still show trade imbalance? Of course not. What people do not realize is that paper money is a form commodity too . . . just a very cheap to produce one. It works so long as the rest of the world is willing to take it.
It's that way back home in Michigan, and it's that way here in the Tx Panhandle. It's a good system. However outsiders like me were hired because of qualifications also. But the majority knew somebody to get on.
Rocky
I'm trying to hold off on any more car purchases until at least the summer of 2008, but every once in awhile I do flirt with the idea of buying a new, basic Chevy Silverado or GMC Sierra to replace my aging Silverado. My final decision here would be based mainly on price though, so if a similar Ram or even an F-word 150 came in cheaper, I'd go with one of them. Also toyed around with the idea of just getting an older, cool pickup from the 60's, since this Silverado isn't something that gets particularly high usage.
If it were a new car, I'd consider an Aura or a Lucerne to replace my Intrepid. I know they're two different size classes, but the Aura might still be big enough for my tastes. I'm hoping the Intrepid holds out for at least a few more years, but at the same time I've just been getting a leery feeling about the car since someone stole the front wheel off of it. I just feel violated, and like the car is a magnet for future hits. I keep expecting to walk out of the house one morning and expect to find the thing up on blocks and totally stripped!
Lou Dobbs, doesn't fit any of those descriptions. :P
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
I will attempt to be civil: please don't mischaracterize my ideology.
FYI - you are 100% out of phase regarding every point you attempted to make in that last post. If you intended to piss me off rather than engage in discourse, you've succeeded.
1. One world government - No. Not now. Not ever. Even if I were foolish enough to actually SEEK such an abomination, it simply wouldn't work. Exhibit 'A'- the League of Nations. Exhibit 'B' - the UN. Ideally, governments should reflect their constituants. Globally, we are too diverse to make a single system work. Perhaps in 500 years the planet would be homogenized enough for a common system to be implemented. But it ain't happening in any of our lifetimes.
2. Bible thumpers - not only is that completely off the mark, but it is baseless. How religion even entered into this discussion is beyond me.
3. Open Border Advocate? Like hell. I happen to believe that ONE of the very BASIC duties of the Federal Government is to secure our nation. And at the TOP of that list is border security. TOP of the list. Worry about what to do with the illegals later; secure the border now. I recently read an analogy of the border/illegals issue: if you live next to a swamp and mosquitos are swarming through the open windows into your home, do you waste time swatting mosquitos or do you SHUT THE FREAKING WINDOW!
You obviously have no clue about where I'm coming from: my fault. I'll try to be clearer in the future.
Stop preaching your warped dogma and ideology into every subject you can find. You'll never succeed in changing anything. Give it up. And please refrain from believing you are in a position to tell me to "cease and desist". If you don't like it, you're free to not reply to me.
You seem to have plenty of time...go study up on MB terminology, and get it right this time...
I would rather be a protectionist, than a "free marketeer" for this very reason.
All I want is to see our economy remain strong and vibrant. We are talking about GM, and the only way they will survive is this country is having a strong economy. Without good paying jobs we won't have a strong "middle class"
I'm sorry I brought religion into it. You have my apology
Rocky