Who cares about Saturn? The Saturn dealer near me thinks that Saturn is better than Honda/ Toyota in all respects. If I am willing to pay $20K for an Accord, I'll pay at most $16K for a similarly equipped Aura to cover for quality and resale value. Howver, the dealer thinks I should pay more than $20K since he believes Aura is a better car. How silly.
5 years from now people will be saying "I need to see 10-15 years of consistency from GM before I give them a chance". It will never end for some people and GM will never measure up. If you look at the 3 year reliability of GM models in JD Power surveys few, if any, of their vehicles are near the bottom of the heap. There have been some models in the last 5 years that had some issues, but I dont agree that some models have been great and others have been amognst the worst in the industry. I would not compare GM to VW because i dont believe ANY of VWs models are near the top of their classes in relaibility. VWs are consistently below average.
"Me, I want to see the Volt come to reality. I want to see an honest-to-God commitment to fuel economy at GM, not just marketing but a variety of models at various price points that make fuel economy one of their design priorities. And not just hybrids, but plug-ins like Volt, and diesels and whatever. How about some frugal gas models? "
The only part of the market where GM is really behind in economy is small cars. they need a modified ecotec that is smaller than 2.2L. In every other segment GM is just as efficient as their main competitors and GM leads in truck efficiency. ONLY TOYOTA had made a MAJOR commitment to hybrids. Amazingly, people have lumped GM in one gas guzzling category and their competitors in the opposite category even though Toyota is the only one aggressively pursuing fuel saving strategies. Would you not buy a Nissan because they have made no commitments to fuel savings across the board? How about Hyundai or BMW? I haven't seen hybrids from these companies and yet no one cares. WHen it comes to GM, people want them to be the most reliable, the most efficient, the cheapese, the best looking, etc. before they will even consider their vehicles.
the Holden Commodore is coming to the states as a Pontiac in '07 or '08. See, they are listening to you if you just pay attention to the latest developments. Future RWD GM models like the Impala will be based on the Australian platform.
I suggest you check out some current Cadillacs before comparing them to Buicks from the 70s. If Buicks had interiors like the SRX, DTS and Escalade they must have been ahead of their time in the 70s.
The Corolla is a nice small car and its more efficient that any small car made by GM, Nissan, DC or Hyundai. It's not just beating GM in the mileage category, its beating everyone. I dont know why GM has to be singled out as the only one not offering a Corolla beater.
Personally, I have no desire to keep a car for 250k miles but to each his own. I have never tried to drive an american car that long, but I suspect if one was willing to put up with the wear and tear maintanence and keep buyng tires, brakes, pads, etc. they could get almost any modern car to last well over 150k miles. My parent's Chevy lasted 12 years and 140k+ miles before it was sold.
You are way off. Even GM critics realize that Wagoner is on point and is making big time progress. I dont know of many major corporations that arent run by guys with MBAs from top universities. Its stupid to suggest that GM is alone in having highly educated and highly paid executives running the show. Do union guys run Honda and Toyota? I doubt it. GM has stopped the massive employees discounts and 0% financing offers. That is from 2005, where have you been? GM is cutting incentives, cutting fleet sales and boosting residual values. Isnt that what you want from them? Based on your comments about GM's leadership knowing nothing about engineering I assume you haven't seen the Silverado, Aura, '08 CTS with 300hp V6, '08 Vue with 250hp/6 speed auto or the '08 Malibu. GM is designing better cars than ever before under the leadership of Wagoner, Lutz and Welbourn.
The healthcare and pension system in Europe and Japan is much different than it is here. The government picks up a lot of the tab for both entitlements.
You keep talking about the CR-V as if GM doesnt make any crossovers. The Vue is available with a 4 cylinder and the '07 Vue V6 gets about the same mileage as the CR-V in spite of having 250hp. What is your point? The new Vue will be more than a match for the CR-V and will offer three powertrains plus two hybrid models. Where is the CR-V hybrid? The Equinox/Torrent are getting a 263hp/6speed combo for the '08 model year and got new interiors for the '06 model year. I think you need to check the mileage on that CR-V again because the new model has mileage that is only incrementally better than V6 rivals. I'd rather have an extra 100hp than 2mpg in efficiency.
Seriously $4 dollar gasoline is crazy. Hopefully the next administration will address this isssue because people's pay/benefits aren't keeping up with the cost of living.
Do you have anything in mind?
If Gore decides to run and gets traction in primary and is nominated, maybe new Pres (Gore or GOP person) and Congress will get serious about updating CAFE to higher and higher gasoline MPG requirements and alternative fuels for vehicles. Gore's primary run would set up a debate about peak oil, China/India growing demand for oil, global warming, etc.
GM, as largest American brand, could have done a lot in late 80's, 90's, early 2000's to promote smaller more efficient vehicles. They did not, but instead promoted big, gluttonous fuel wasting vehicles that were high margin.
5 years from now people will be saying "I need to see 10-15 years of consistency from GM before I give them a chance". It will never end for some people and GM will never measure up.
Let this be a lesson to other car manufacturers - NEVER let quality get to such a low point that consumers lose faith in droves. No matter what you do, it's a long, hard road back to getting them to trust you again with their hard-earned $$.
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Rocky, if you can even contemplate buying a CTS-V, you can afford $10 a gallon gas. Otherwise, you'd better hope the Aura hybrid is everything GM promises and more. "Help me, Jill Ladsi-whatever-her-last-name-is, you're my only hope!" :P
You're right. Amazing how Hyundai/Kia have managed to come back from having bad reputations relatively well, so far. The factors are probably there are more choices now for those who chose them a few years ago compared to the number of choices when people chose GM in 80s and 90s. People felt more trapped in the choices they made and then blamed the company for the product. They built up huge amounts of animosity in displaced anger. That doesn't seem to have happened to Hyundai.
I asked a driver of an XG350? the other day how he liked his car. He had had no problems with it. It was older than I had thought. So maybe the Hyundai problem cars were fewer than perception implies also as it was in the case of GM.
So maybe the Hyundai problem cars were fewer than perception implies also as it was in the case of GM.
The biggest problem GM has is that it simply did so much more volume in crapmobiles than Hyundai ever did. After the intial burst of Excels in the late '80s, annual sales wound down and bottomed out in the mid-90s (I want to say 20,000 but I think that's too low) before the 10-year-warranty and improved build and design quality set them on the right path. Far fewer people experienced Hyundai's bad cars firsthand than GM's.
A HUGE percentage of people have experienced, or know well of an experience, of GM putting out sub-par machines due to "Planned Obsolesence", and other non-customer driven practices.
The Hondas and Toyotas don't create as many, a relatively small percentage, of bad memories/experiences.
Many people would rather hand the ball to someone who never fumbles, than someone that can break one, but WILL fumble often enough.
People don't like leaps of faith when it comes to caring for their family.
Invest in a name you trust. GM is on the right track, but can blame no one but themselves for what happens from now on, good or bad.
Exactly! The thing about Hyundai was, it was the punchline of numerous jokes about poor quality in the 80s. They never made implied promises and then failed to deliver. So if your Hyundai left you hanging in the 80s, well it shouldn't have come as much of a surprise. And the Excels were really cheap, so you didn't have to feel like you spent your life savings on a lemon. Now Hyundai is considered pretty much on a par with GM and Ford after travelling a hard 10-year road back. Me, I still feel the drive in a Hyundai (the ones I have tested: Elantra, Accent, Sonata, last-gen Santa Fe) is inferior to the American cars of similar size and mission, and certainly to the ToyHons of similar size and mission. Which is why I wouldn't buy one, not because I don't think they have turned the reliability corner yet. But I still give them 5 years of consistent results to prove to me they are up to my standards.
And to answer one of the questions you posed, 1487, NO, I would NOT consider a Nissan. They have had the same problem as GM, inconsistent quality and reliability, even worse than GM has had it.
And most of the luxury carmakers (you mentioned BMW) make exclusively gas guzzlers by my estimation, with perhaps an exception for the very smallest and lowest-powered sedans in each line-up, which are not guzzlers, but not great either. I doubt luxury car buyers care all that much - if they did, they would forego the snob appeal and buy a car with genuinely good gas mileage, loaded to the gills with optional features.
And as for the 3-5 year thing, well first of all no major surveys are looking at cars older than 5 years, and even if they were it gets too variable depending on owner care outside the 5-year window. Second, I am not looking for 10-15 years of improvement, 3-5 will show they are serious about it.
Oh, and I do pay attention to "developments", as you put it. That's how I know about the Aussie cars in the first place. I assume they will go ahead with it, although I thought they were still in the "study" phase? I read an article that said they could manage to import 20-30K of them per year from the land down under. If so, that will surely be a huge drop in volume for the G8, vs the Grand Prix it replaces? But then, they won't have to send 3/4 of them to fleets, so maybe that will work out fine.
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You're right, I haven't looked inside a new Cadillac -- not my price range or style -- but I was responding to the comment about quality of exterior styling. I still see flat panels and sharp angles in the exterior, and it reminds me of my dad's 78 Cutlass Salon. Of course, using almost 40-year-old music by a bunch of guys now in their sixties to somehow sell the youth and "hotness" of the Cadies reinforces that in my mind.
As far as keeping a car for extended periods, I drive a lot and when I have a car in good working order I keep it until it's more expensive to fix than buy. I don't need anything new until I really need it. Toyota products are the first ones that allowed me to exercise this prerogative. (Haven't owned a Honda).
xrunner2: If Gore decides to run and gets traction in primary and is nominated...
If the Democrats do that, then maybe GM will bring back the Vega, and Ford will name its new "B" car the Pinto...
xrunner2: GM, as largest American brand, could have done a lot in late 80's, 90's, early 2000's to promote smaller more efficient vehicles. They did not, but instead promoted big, gluttonous fuel wasting vehicles that were high margin.
Except, the last time I checked, foreign manufacturers - particularly Toyota and Nissan - were rushing to make SUVs, too, and Toyota and Nissan are working hard to invade the full-size pickup market. Maybe GM wasn't so dumb after all...
Incidentally, most of Toyota's sales growth in the U.S. since 1995 has been fueled by an increase in the sales of trucks and SUVs, not hybrids or Yaris-sized cars.
In fact the average corporate fuel economy for cars is about the same for GM and Toyota and the same thing is true for the trucks.
The only reason there is a large difference between GM and Toyota overall corporate fuel economy is that GM sells a higher percentage of trucks. And Toyota is trying hard to change that and sell more trucks.
xrunner2: If Gore decides to run and gets traction in primary and is nominated...
grbeck: If the Democrats do that, then maybe GM will bring back the Vega, and Ford will name its new "B" car the Pinto...
Well, get ready for the GM Vega then. Dems will find out, if they are smart/lucky that only credible candidates that "could" get elected Pres are Gore first and then possibly Edwards. Look for a Gore/Edwards ticket. Why would Gore not be electable in general election? I still hear people saying on tv that he won the 2000 election.
I think Toyota gets kudos from keeping/promoting fuel economy where it matters: Yaris, Corolla, Hybrids. Now if people would rather buy a truck then so be it.
GM’s Aveo on the other hand has the nerve not only to have bad styling but to have bad fuel economy in a small size! What where they thinking??
Toyota additionaly could spend their marketing dollars attracting customers burned by high gas prices. They did have to give rebates on their suv(like everyone else). GM on the other hand was too busy hyping big rebates, showing what a good ole American company they are, and the 100,000 mile warranty to tell you just why you should buy which models. And, which models were fuel efficient.
I think GM is a little out of touch with the public when it comes to what to advertise.
Of course, using almost 40-year-old music by a bunch of guys now in their sixties to somehow sell the youth and "hotness" of the Cadies reinforces that in my mind.
Cadillac has ditched Led Zeppelin for their ad campaigns. The new tagline is, as Pete DeLorenzo of autoextremist.com puts it, "2/3rds of the Declaration of Independence." That is, "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit."
And I keep asking, "pursuit of WHAT?" Lame; give me Led Zeppelin any day.
I say the exact same thing when I see that slogan. I have said it a million times, and I will probably say it a million more...GM really needs some better marketing.
I didn't care for the dinosaur rock theme much, but I was used to it.
...GM in 80s and 90s. People felt more trapped in the choices they made and then blamed the company for the product. They built up huge amounts of animosity in displaced anger. That doesn't seem to have happened to Hyundai.
I think this is due to two reasons:
1. Hyundai never sold remotely as many cars as GM, so there were not as many bad experiences 2. Hyundai's bad streak didn't last as long as GM's. Started with the Excel (in what, the late 80's?). Ended around 5 years ago.
Heck, I loved the Led Zep Cadillac ads. I was a big fan of Led Zeppelin when I was in high school in the early '80s.
I don't think the current ads are that bad. The cars more than make up for the weak marketing. Shoot, they're infinitely better than the Lexus Xmas commercials which could spark a violent revolution.
I dont think all of GM's marketshare losses are due to poor quality. You are implying that GM never made any reliable vehicles prior to now but that isnt the case. Some, not all, of GM owners had bad experiences in terms of reliability. My parents Olds is 9 years old and has had very few problems since the warranty ended many years ago. If GM's quality is equal to Toyota and Honda within the next five years they still wont command more than 25% of the market due to the competition in this market. Conversely, regardless of how good Toyota's vehicles are now and in the future they will never as much share as GM had in 2006 for the same reason.
No, of course it's not all quality, and GM has made some good, reliable vehicles. It's also due to the number of choices available now as compared to several decades past, styling preferences, and other factors.
However, some of the loss was definitely due to experiences with poor quality vehicles, and it is SO hard to get people to trust again.
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Cadillac dropped the Led Zepellin music many months ago and it proved effective. People with money tend to be in their 40s and 50s and could identify with that type of music. Brands that aim young like Nissan, Scion and Pontiac tend to use more modern ad themes but then again their cars are a lot cheaper than Cadillacs. Young people generally have less money than older people and thus you dont see many 25 year olds driving Cadillacs, Lexus' or other luxury brand. Funny how its a bad thing when Caddy owners are baby boomers but no one comments on the 70 year olds I see driving ES350s and LS430s.
I see no resemblence between modern Cadillacs and anthing GM made in the 70s or 80s.
A lot of cars will last for 10+ years if you chose to maintain a car that long. MB fans often say that old Benz models can run 200k miles or more, but the question is how much are you going to spend on maintenance to get to that point. Only dire financial straights would keep me in a car for 200k miles and thus I see no reason to buy a Toyota I really dont want just because it promises to last for two decades.
Actually, it's not. Hyundai did it by offering a 10 year powertrain warranty and making its models more competitive than ever. As evidenced by these forums there are a lot of people that hate American automakers for various reasons. Some of it is based on actual experiences with actual vehicles but a lot of it has to do with the "cool factor" that comes with owning a foreign car. That isnt going to be easy to change, especially when the domestic automakers are actually designing better looking cars than the Asians these days.
At a certain point people have to become reasonable and base their perception of GM vehicles on what is on sale today as well as evidence from JD Powers and other sources. When a person is willing to disregard that and tell you they wont consider GM because of an experience in 1983 then I have to say GM is never going to win over that individual.
That's probably true. I got burned to a crisp by a GM vehicle, and it will take a lot for me to consider one again, especially now that I've owned some models that have been ultra-reliable. Why would I want to change? Of course, if one of them burns me, I'll drop them as well.
Hyundai has cool factor? Hmmmmmm.....
People don't "have to become reasonable" by your standards at all. It's tens of thousands of dollars, and they can use whatever standard they choose. The public votes with their dollars, and if GM vehicles can stand up as competitive for a few years in the mind of consumers, not in the mind of those who think buyers should support GM, then they'll succeed.
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You are stuck in 2005 and its 2007. GM hasnt hyped huge rebates in over a year. Toyota doesnt advertise for its trucks because they know it will clash with their holier than thou green image and their trucks stink when it comes to efficiency.
I fail to see how GM advertising their warranty proves they are out of touch. What exactly was the problem?
I suppose you are commenting on the Silverado ad with your snide remark about "showing what a good ole American company they are" but I fail to see how an add would prevent you from buying a nice truck. I dont like or dislike the ads really, but I've noticed a lot of GM bashers are really up in arms about it and want to swear allegiance to Toyota not. I suppose patriotic ads are only acceptable when Toyota is making them to show us how they are an American company now and they are more about Kentucky than Tokyo these days.
The flag waving ads dont make the Silverado any less of a good truck.
>Toyota doesnt advertise for its trucks because they know it will clash with their holier than thou green image and their trucks stink when it comes to efficiency
Right on point. People have an image of Toyota and Honda's various offerings and that's been carefully nurtured.
>...I got burned to a crisp by a GM vehicle, and it will take a lot for me to consider one again, especially now that I've owned some models that have been ultra-reliable. Why would I want to change? Of course, if one of them burns me, I'll drop them as well.
I don't recall which GMs you owned and had trouble with in the past. My question is it a dealership and service quality problem or is it the design of the particular vehicle you bought. I'm not hoping for a "I had a 198X something and it cost me 250,000$" type story but just your assessment of whether the dealership could have helped with problems. In the past the Honda and Toyo dealers had done recall type repairs without customers' knowledge so that the image of "problems" doesn't get built up.
The public does vote with their dollars, and that public has been putting GM in the #1 sales position for 75 years. Yes Toyota may pass in global sales (how can it not when GM has no presence in Japan?) but in the US the margin is quite large.
Hyundai doesnt have much of a cool factor, but customers were willing to forgive hyundai because a)they are foreign and b)they offered that big warranty. In many parts of the country owning anything Asian (or Euro) is better for your image than owning anything domestic. People see Hyundai owners as people who really wanted a Toyota but had to settle for the Hyundai this time around.
"I got burned to a crisp by a GM vehicle, and it will take a lot for me to consider one again, especially now that I've owned some models that have been ultra-reliable. "
What vehicle was it and when year was it?
I notice a lot of import buyers dont really consider anything beyond the manufacturer they currently own. Reliability is important, but I'm not going to buy a car I'm not crazy about just because "the one I have didnt break down". That to me, should be one factor, but not the determining factor. Of course this type of reasoning explains why Japanese cars no longer offer great value for your money like they used to. They know many Americans will default to their offerings without checking out the competition.
"I notice a lot of import buyers dont really consider anything beyond the manufacturer they currently own"
Is this true of only import buyers? Or do lots of GM buyers stick with GM car after car too? :-)
You have also made various comments indicating that even if you had the most reliable car in history, you would not keep it to 200K miles, and that perhaps reliability is not your very highest priority when choosing a car. In that case, it may be that your priorities differ from a significant portion of the market, which makes it more difficult for you to understand their perspective in how they choose a new car.
As for styling, Lumina and the last decade of Taurus notwithstanding (!!), haven't the domestics ALWAYS beaten the Japanese in the styling wars? Certainly, Toyota has little to crow about in that arena for well over a decade. Ditto Honda, for the most part. Nissan is now catching eyes with stylish cars, but the "new Nissans" have other problems.
Finally, among people who are very brand-loyal, it won't matter how long ago a GM car burned them, as long as the brand they changed to hasn't let them down since. So it's not a question to get real worked up about, you know? It is what it is. GM folks say the reliability is there in spades now - great. In that case, GM will have to find a hook besides reliability to get people to come back and try them out again. Styling, hp, hybrids, whatever, can be that hook. One of the highest priorities for me personally when I choose a vehicle (besides reliability) is fuel economy and interior quality. If GM makes the next compact-class fuel economy champ with an above-average interior, I will be there to check it out, you can bet.
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I had an early-90's Saab 9000. Bought it because I had previously owned a mid-80's Saab 900, and it was one of the best, most reliable vehicles I'd owned. I took that 9000 all over the place because I thought it might be a service issue, but nope - toward the end of its lifespan (just about 2001), it was having problems, mainly transmission, that were running me in the neighborhood of $800/month in repairs.
I've owned 20+ vehicles in my lifetime, a mix of domestic & foreign. It's not JUST about reliability, but there are so many products available now, I'm not likely to give a serious shot to a manufacturer that burned me just to "give them a fair chance." Too many vehicles out there that will satisfy me just fine.
And, as nippononly pointed out, there are a lot of domestic buyers who are loyal to a manufacturer. I believe it's lemko who said he's been happy with GM. My parents tend to buy DCX products. That's fine, and I have no intention of trying to change their minds or buying preferences. If they are happy with their purchases, then that's fabulous.
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I don't consider Saab a GM vehicle. I don't know when GM became involved with the company, but it's only recently it's become a GM vehicle with some platforms and parts from GM. I haven't followed Saab because I consider it a foreign brand; I've just noticed when other posters have commented about the SAABs>
This was definitely a GM. I was told in no uncertain terms that it was... could be off on the year. It's hard to remember.
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Hyundai experienced a meteoric rise and fall in the late 80s and early 90s -- not that many people bought those awful cars in comparison to GM products over the decades. Basically, Hyundai was a one-trick pony then, offering only the Excel subcompact.
The first-gen Sonata came out around 1989 as I recall, and it wasn't a good car either, but Hyundai's fortunes had already crashed and burned by then. Even as late as 1998, their total sales (not including Kia, which was still independent) were under 100K units.
I agree with Bumpy in holding on to a car for over 200K miles -- I've done so with my former 1980 Volvo 240, which I had for 21 years. It did have a few troubles, but more in the earlier years than later on. But it was very easy to work on myself and of course, very durable. I sold my 10-year-old Sable before the then-20-year-old Volvo because the former was far more troublesome.
Today, I probably wouldn't keep a car that long because of rapid advances on the safety front. By contrast, during the Reagan-Bush 41 era, little progress was made safety-wise, so the Volvo was still competitive in that area (except for no front airbags or antilock brakes). It did have 4-wheel disks, for example, and shoulder belts in the rear seats.
I would say my priorities for a car are safety, reliability, fuel economy, and value (not necessarily in that order). Safety concerns will keep me out of anything smaller than a midsize car, and I see no reason to spend more than about $25K in today's dollars for a car that fits my needs.
I saw a forecast in last week's Automotive News projecting that GM would own about 22% of the US market by about 2010 and Toyota would rise to no more than 18-19%.
Regarding the Tundra, you can be certain Toyota WILL advertise the living daylights out of that model, what with their huge investment in the Texas plant and the redesign. One mistake Toyota is not likely to make though is to sell more trucks than cars in the US, as happened with GM (and even more so with Ford and DCX).
And WHAT hidden recalls for T and H, imid? (Here we go again.) :confuse:
Re: being burned by GM -- recently. True story: my aunt, who married the son of an independent used car dealer, always had used cars -- tons of them during the 40+ years they have been married. A few years ago, she splurged and got her first new car -- a Pontiac Bonneville (I think a 2001 model). Well, that car has been a nightmare on wheels, and you can be sure she won't buy another new GM car again!
What I should have said is that the GM control of design and parts was effected in the late 90s. Earlier models, I think, were essentially designed by Saab and were foreign design and parts.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure some of our posters will fill me in. I had a coworker in the late 80s who had a 900 Saab and I remember he drove it like he was going to a fire; it was quite the sporty car at the time. He really enjoyed that car. But I thought it was completely foreign in design.
The 900 was definitely foreign made & designed. My 9000 had a GM engine.
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You are kidding me right? I see commercials for the 4Runner and Tundra every time I turn on the televison. On the other hand, haven't seen the Prius ad for a while now...
Oh yeah, and those hilarious ads about how durable the Tacoma is are being played like every 30 minutes and they got so many version of them now.
"Some of it is based on actual experiences with actual vehicles but a lot of it has to do with the "cool factor" that comes with owning a foreign car."
I don;t think its a "cool factor" its just that the American Makes designed so bad looking cars in the 90's/early 00's(with the exception of Chrysler)that it just rubbed buyers the wrong way. Styling of American Makes styling has gotten alot better though the past 3-5 years.
"That isnt going to be easy to change, especially when the domestic automakers are actually designing better looking cars than the Asians these days."'
I don;t think the American Car Companies are still as good as the Asians at styling a car. Maybe its just my peference. The American Makes are getting there as I said are getting there but no cigar yet(for me anyway.)
"At a certain point people have to become reasonable and base their perception of GM vehicles on what is on sale today as well as evidence from JD Powers and other sources."
other sorces-Consumer Reports always rates GM cars reliability either good(for example Buick)but no line in between. I do buy Consumer Reports but since my parents have had mostly good experiences with GM vehicles I don;t get fazed by CR's bad reliability ratings of GM cars.
The first 900 was all SAAB, but the second 900 was basically a reskinned Opel. The later 9000s did get some GM engines in the mid-90s, but the design of the car dated back to the late '80s.
and whose fault that is? Apparently I just found out earlier today that Japan doesn't charge tariff on imported vehicles but US does...
I notice a lot of import buyers dont really consider anything beyond the manufacturer they currently own.
Why would they if they are happy with what hey own? I also notice a lot HAPPY domestic owners do not consider anything else either so what's your point? :confuse:
I'm not going to buy a car I'm not crazy about just because "the one I have didnt break down"
Maybe you are not the majority? Maybe other people are just looking for a reliable appliance and not looking for something to make their hair stand up? Sometimes we can see the whole picture better when we are not so rushed to put in our own judgement and/or values.
Of course this type of reasoning explains why Japanese cars no longer offer great value for your money like they used to.
You forgot to put "IMO"...
To me the best values right now in the market are all Japanese: G35 and based TL.
"As for styling, Lumina and the last decade of Taurus notwithstanding (!!), haven't the domestics ALWAYS beaten the Japanese in the styling wars? Certainly, Toyota has little to crow about in that arena for well over a decade. Ditto Honda, for the most part. Nissan is now catching eyes with stylish cars, but the "new Nissans" have other problems."
Personally, I don;t see how Ford styled anything better than Honda did in the 90's. Toyota did have the Celica and the last generation RAV 4 in the early 00's which were good looking. I always thought the late 90's Avalon was a nice looking car too.
"You are stuck in 2005 and its 2007. GM hasnt hyped huge rebates in over a year. Toyota doesnt advertise for its trucks because they know it will clash with their holier than thou green image and their trucks stink when it comes to efficiency."
Thats true GM has slashed their incentives in the past year or so.
I suppose you are commenting on the Silverado ad with your snide remark about "showing what a good ole American company they are" but I fail to see how an add would prevent you from buying a nice truck. I dont like or dislike the ads really, but I've noticed a lot of GM bashers are really up in arms about it and want to swear allegiance to Toyota not."
I think import car fans(not me though) laugh at the patriotic stuff because GM is still trying to sell the "Buy American Theme" but The Buy American American Theme is so early 90's in my opinion. I don;t care about the Patriotic ads that GM is running because commercials don;t make me buy a certain make or model of car. "I suppose patriotic ads are only acceptable when Toyota is making them to show us how they are an American company now and they are more about Kentucky than Tokyo these days.
I would like to see if my 1988 Buick Park Avenue will make it to 200K, but I'll either get sick of it or it might be killed in an accident before then. I knew a guy who kept his 1992 Camry over 200K miles, but the car looked like a 20 year-old taxicab by then. I don't think I could be driving such a shabby looking ride for 200K miles.
"Funny how its a bad thing when Caddy owners are baby boomers but no one comments on the 70 year olds I see driving ES350s and LS430s."
Well to be fair Lexus may not take flack for their baby boomer buyers but their little sister Toyota brand did. Remember Toyota was being called out for being a Japanese Buick a few years ago before the Scion(Toyota;s youth brand)came out onto the market.
Comments
"Me, I want to see the Volt come to reality. I want to see an honest-to-God commitment to fuel economy at GM, not just marketing but a variety of models at various price points that make fuel economy one of their design priorities. And not just hybrids, but plug-ins like Volt, and diesels and whatever. How about some frugal gas models? "
The only part of the market where GM is really behind in economy is small cars. they need a modified ecotec that is smaller than 2.2L. In every other segment GM is just as efficient as their main competitors and GM leads in truck efficiency. ONLY TOYOTA had made a MAJOR commitment to hybrids. Amazingly, people have lumped GM in one gas guzzling category and their competitors in the opposite category even though Toyota is the only one aggressively pursuing fuel saving strategies. Would you not buy a Nissan because they have made no commitments to fuel savings across the board? How about Hyundai or BMW? I haven't seen hybrids from these companies and yet no one cares. WHen it comes to GM, people want them to be the most reliable, the most efficient, the cheapese, the best looking, etc. before they will even consider their vehicles.
the Holden Commodore is coming to the states as a Pontiac in '07 or '08. See, they are listening to you if you just pay attention to the latest developments. Future RWD GM models like the Impala will be based on the Australian platform.
The Corolla is a nice small car and its more efficient that any small car made by GM, Nissan, DC or Hyundai. It's not just beating GM in the mileage category, its beating everyone. I dont know why GM has to be singled out as the only one not offering a Corolla beater.
Personally, I have no desire to keep a car for 250k miles but to each his own. I have never tried to drive an american car that long, but I suspect if one was willing to put up with the wear and tear maintanence and keep buyng tires, brakes, pads, etc. they could get almost any modern car to last well over 150k miles. My parent's Chevy lasted 12 years and 140k+ miles before it was sold.
The healthcare and pension system in Europe and Japan is much different than it is here. The government picks up a lot of the tab for both entitlements.
You keep talking about the CR-V as if GM doesnt make any crossovers. The Vue is available with a 4 cylinder and the '07 Vue V6 gets about the same mileage as the CR-V in spite of having 250hp. What is your point? The new Vue will be more than a match for the CR-V and will offer three powertrains plus two hybrid models. Where is the CR-V hybrid? The Equinox/Torrent are getting a 263hp/6speed combo for the '08 model year and got new interiors for the '06 model year. I think you need to check the mileage on that CR-V again because the new model has mileage that is only incrementally better than V6 rivals. I'd rather have an extra 100hp than 2mpg in efficiency.
Do you have anything in mind?
If Gore decides to run and gets traction in primary and is nominated, maybe new Pres (Gore or GOP person) and Congress will get serious about updating CAFE to higher and higher gasoline MPG requirements and alternative fuels for vehicles. Gore's primary run would set up a debate about peak oil, China/India growing demand for oil, global warming, etc.
GM, as largest American brand, could have done a lot in late 80's, 90's, early 2000's to promote smaller more efficient vehicles. They did not, but instead promoted big, gluttonous fuel wasting vehicles that were high margin.
Let this be a lesson to other car manufacturers - NEVER let quality get to such a low point that consumers lose faith in droves. No matter what you do, it's a long, hard road back to getting them to trust you again with their hard-earned $$.
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You're right. Amazing how Hyundai/Kia have managed to come back from having bad reputations relatively well, so far. The factors are probably there are more choices now for those who chose them a few years ago compared to the number of choices when people chose GM in 80s and 90s. People felt more trapped in the choices they made and then blamed the company for the product. They built up huge amounts of animosity in displaced anger. That doesn't seem to have happened to Hyundai.
I asked a driver of an XG350? the other day how he liked his car. He had had no problems with it. It was older than I had thought. So maybe the Hyundai problem cars were fewer than perception implies also as it was in the case of GM.
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The biggest problem GM has is that it simply did so much more volume in crapmobiles than Hyundai ever did. After the intial burst of Excels in the late '80s, annual sales wound down and bottomed out in the mid-90s (I want to say 20,000 but I think that's too low) before the 10-year-warranty and improved build and design quality set them on the right path. Far fewer people experienced Hyundai's bad cars firsthand than GM's.
The Hondas and Toyotas don't create as many, a relatively small percentage, of bad memories/experiences.
Many people would rather hand the ball to someone who never fumbles, than someone that can break one, but WILL fumble often enough.
People don't like leaps of faith when it comes to caring for their family.
Invest in a name you trust. GM is on the right track, but can blame no one but themselves for what happens from now on, good or bad.
DrFill
And to answer one of the questions you posed, 1487, NO, I would NOT consider a Nissan. They have had the same problem as GM, inconsistent quality and reliability, even worse than GM has had it.
And most of the luxury carmakers (you mentioned BMW) make exclusively gas guzzlers by my estimation, with perhaps an exception for the very smallest and lowest-powered sedans in each line-up, which are not guzzlers, but not great either. I doubt luxury car buyers care all that much - if they did, they would forego the snob appeal and buy a car with genuinely good gas mileage, loaded to the gills with optional features.
And as for the 3-5 year thing, well first of all no major surveys are looking at cars older than 5 years, and even if they were it gets too variable depending on owner care outside the 5-year window. Second, I am not looking for 10-15 years of improvement, 3-5 will show they are serious about it.
Oh, and I do pay attention to "developments", as you put it. That's how I know about the Aussie cars in the first place. I assume they will go ahead with it, although I thought they were still in the "study" phase? I read an article that said they could manage to import 20-30K of them per year from the land down under. If so, that will surely be a huge drop in volume for the G8, vs the Grand Prix it replaces? But then, they won't have to send 3/4 of them to fleets, so maybe that will work out fine.
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As far as keeping a car for extended periods, I drive a lot and when I have a car in good working order I keep it until it's more expensive to fix than buy. I don't need anything new until I really need it. Toyota products are the first ones that allowed me to exercise this prerogative. (Haven't owned a Honda).
If the Democrats do that, then maybe GM will bring back the Vega, and Ford will name its new "B" car the Pinto...
xrunner2: GM, as largest American brand, could have done a lot in late 80's, 90's, early 2000's to promote smaller more efficient vehicles. They did not, but instead promoted big, gluttonous fuel wasting vehicles that were high margin.
Except, the last time I checked, foreign manufacturers - particularly Toyota and Nissan - were rushing to make SUVs, too, and Toyota and Nissan are working hard to invade the full-size pickup market. Maybe GM wasn't so dumb after all...
Incidentally, most of Toyota's sales growth in the U.S. since 1995 has been fueled by an increase in the sales of trucks and SUVs, not hybrids or Yaris-sized cars.
The only reason there is a large difference between GM and
Toyota overall corporate fuel economy is that GM sells a higher percentage of trucks. And Toyota is trying hard to change that and sell more trucks.
grbeck: If the Democrats do that, then maybe GM will bring back the Vega, and Ford will name its new "B" car the Pinto...
Well, get ready for the GM Vega then. Dems will find out, if they are smart/lucky that only credible candidates that "could" get elected Pres are Gore first and then possibly Edwards. Look for a Gore/Edwards ticket. Why would Gore not be electable in general election? I still hear people saying on tv that he won the 2000 election.
GM’s Aveo on the other hand has the nerve not only to have bad styling but to have bad fuel economy in a small size! What where they thinking??
Toyota additionaly could spend their marketing dollars attracting customers burned by high gas prices. They did have to give rebates on their suv(like everyone else). GM on the other hand was too busy hyping big rebates, showing what a good ole American company they are, and the 100,000 mile warranty to tell you just why you should buy which models. And, which models were fuel efficient.
I think GM is a little out of touch with the public when it comes to what to advertise.
Cadillac has ditched Led Zeppelin for their ad campaigns. The new tagline is, as Pete DeLorenzo of autoextremist.com puts it, "2/3rds of the Declaration of Independence." That is, "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit."
And I keep asking, "pursuit of WHAT?" Lame; give me Led Zeppelin any day.
I say the exact same thing when I see that slogan. I have said it a million times, and I will probably say it a million more...GM really needs some better marketing.
I didn't care for the dinosaur rock theme much, but I was used to it.
I think this is due to two reasons:
1. Hyundai never sold remotely as many cars as GM, so there were not as many bad experiences
2. Hyundai's bad streak didn't last as long as GM's. Started with the Excel (in what, the late 80's?). Ended around 5 years ago.
I don't think the current ads are that bad. The cars more than make up for the weak marketing. Shoot, they're infinitely better than the Lexus Xmas commercials which could spark a violent revolution.
There also seems to be a synergy from having others complain and adding on with 2nd person's tale of woe that has built.
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However, some of the loss was definitely due to experiences with poor quality vehicles, and it is SO hard to get people to trust again.
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I see no resemblence between modern Cadillacs and anthing GM made in the 70s or 80s.
A lot of cars will last for 10+ years if you chose to maintain a car that long. MB fans often say that old Benz models can run 200k miles or more, but the question is how much are you going to spend on maintenance to get to that point. Only dire financial straights would keep me in a car for 200k miles and thus I see no reason to buy a Toyota I really dont want just because it promises to last for two decades.
At a certain point people have to become reasonable and base their perception of GM vehicles on what is on sale today as well as evidence from JD Powers and other sources. When a person is willing to disregard that and tell you they wont consider GM because of an experience in 1983 then I have to say GM is never going to win over that individual.
Hyundai has cool factor? Hmmmmmm.....
People don't "have to become reasonable" by your standards at all. It's tens of thousands of dollars, and they can use whatever standard they choose. The public votes with their dollars, and if GM vehicles can stand up as competitive for a few years in the mind of consumers, not in the mind of those who think buyers should support GM, then they'll succeed.
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I fail to see how GM advertising their warranty proves they are out of touch. What exactly was the problem?
I suppose you are commenting on the Silverado ad with your snide remark about "showing what a good ole American company they are" but I fail to see how an add would prevent you from buying a nice truck. I dont like or dislike the ads really, but I've noticed a lot of GM bashers are really up in arms about it and want to swear allegiance to Toyota not. I suppose patriotic ads are only acceptable when Toyota is making them to show us how they are an American company now and they are more about Kentucky than Tokyo these days.
The flag waving ads dont make the Silverado any less of a good truck.
Right on point. People have an image of Toyota and Honda's various offerings and that's been carefully nurtured.
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I don't recall which GMs you owned and had trouble with in the past. My question is it a dealership and service quality problem or is it the design of the particular vehicle you bought. I'm not hoping for a "I had a 198X something and it cost me 250,000$" type story but just your assessment of whether the dealership could have helped with problems. In the past the Honda and Toyo dealers had done recall type repairs without customers' knowledge so that the image of "problems" doesn't get built up.
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Hyundai doesnt have much of a cool factor, but customers were willing to forgive hyundai because a)they are foreign and b)they offered that big warranty. In many parts of the country owning anything Asian (or Euro) is better for your image than owning anything domestic. People see Hyundai owners as people who really wanted a Toyota but had to settle for the Hyundai this time around.
"I got burned to a crisp by a GM vehicle, and it will take a lot for me to consider one again, especially now that I've owned some models that have been ultra-reliable. "
What vehicle was it and when year was it?
I notice a lot of import buyers dont really consider anything beyond the manufacturer they currently own. Reliability is important, but I'm not going to buy a car I'm not crazy about just because "the one I have didnt break down". That to me, should be one factor, but not the determining factor. Of course this type of reasoning explains why Japanese cars no longer offer great value for your money like they used to. They know many Americans will default to their offerings without checking out the competition.
You've never had a car you liked enough to want to hold on to?
Is this true of only import buyers? Or do lots of GM buyers stick with GM car after car too? :-)
You have also made various comments indicating that even if you had the most reliable car in history, you would not keep it to 200K miles, and that perhaps reliability is not your very highest priority when choosing a car. In that case, it may be that your priorities differ from a significant portion of the market, which makes it more difficult for you to understand their perspective in how they choose a new car.
As for styling, Lumina and the last decade of Taurus notwithstanding (!!), haven't the domestics ALWAYS beaten the Japanese in the styling wars?
Certainly, Toyota has little to crow about in that arena for well over a decade. Ditto Honda, for the most part. Nissan is now catching eyes with stylish cars, but the "new Nissans" have other problems.
Finally, among people who are very brand-loyal, it won't matter how long ago a GM car burned them, as long as the brand they changed to hasn't let them down since. So it's not a question to get real worked up about, you know? It is what it is. GM folks say the reliability is there in spades now - great. In that case, GM will have to find a hook besides reliability to get people to come back and try them out again. Styling, hp, hybrids, whatever, can be that hook. One of the highest priorities for me personally when I choose a vehicle (besides reliability) is fuel economy and interior quality. If GM makes the next compact-class fuel economy champ with an above-average interior, I will be there to check it out, you can bet.
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I've owned 20+ vehicles in my lifetime, a mix of domestic & foreign. It's not JUST about reliability, but there are so many products available now, I'm not likely to give a serious shot to a manufacturer that burned me just to "give them a fair chance." Too many vehicles out there that will satisfy me just fine.
And, as nippononly pointed out, there are a lot of domestic buyers who are loyal to a manufacturer. I believe it's lemko who said he's been happy with GM. My parents tend to buy DCX products. That's fine, and I have no intention of trying to change their minds or buying preferences. If they are happy with their purchases, then that's fabulous.
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I don't consider Saab a GM vehicle. I don't know when GM became involved with the company, but it's only recently it's become a GM vehicle with some platforms and parts from GM. I haven't followed Saab because I consider it a foreign brand; I've just noticed when other posters have commented about the SAABs>
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The first-gen Sonata came out around 1989 as I recall, and it wasn't a good car either, but Hyundai's fortunes had already crashed and burned by then. Even as late as 1998, their total sales (not including Kia, which was still independent) were under 100K units.
I agree with Bumpy in holding on to a car for over 200K miles -- I've done so with my former 1980 Volvo 240, which I had for 21 years. It did have a few troubles, but more in the earlier years than later on. But it was very easy to work on myself and of course, very durable. I sold my 10-year-old Sable before the then-20-year-old Volvo because the former was far more troublesome.
Today, I probably wouldn't keep a car that long because of rapid advances on the safety front. By contrast, during the Reagan-Bush 41 era, little progress was made safety-wise, so the Volvo was still competitive in that area (except for no front airbags or antilock brakes). It did have 4-wheel disks, for example, and shoulder belts in the rear seats.
I would say my priorities for a car are safety, reliability, fuel economy, and value (not necessarily in that order). Safety concerns will keep me out of anything smaller than a midsize car, and I see no reason to spend more than about $25K in today's dollars for a car that fits my needs.
I saw a forecast in last week's Automotive News projecting that GM would own about 22% of the US market by about 2010 and Toyota would rise to no more than 18-19%.
Regarding the Tundra, you can be certain Toyota WILL advertise the living daylights out of that model, what with their huge investment in the Texas plant and the redesign. One mistake Toyota is not likely to make though is to sell more trucks than cars in the US, as happened with GM (and even more so with Ford and DCX).
And WHAT hidden recalls for T and H, imid? (Here we go again.) :confuse:
Re: being burned by GM -- recently. True story: my aunt, who married the son of an independent used car dealer, always had used cars -- tons of them during the 40+ years they have been married. A few years ago, she splurged and got her first new car -- a Pontiac Bonneville (I think a 2001 model). Well, that car has been a nightmare on wheels, and you can be sure she won't buy another new GM car again!
Yeah but why you only picked on those 2? Lexus has a lot others to offer you know. So far I haven't seen anyone over 40 driving an IS350/250 yet.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure some of our posters will fill me in. I had a coworker in the late 80s who had a 900 Saab and I remember he drove it like he was going to a fire; it was quite the sporty car at the time. He really enjoyed that car. But I thought it was completely foreign in design.
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Development of the 9000 was started before GM owned any part of SAAB but while SAAB was in serious trouble.
Now the 1994 and up SAAB 900 was purely a GM vehicle.
Did you have a 900 or a 9000?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_9000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_900_%28NG%29
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You are kidding me right? I see commercials for the 4Runner and Tundra every time I turn on the televison. On the other hand, haven't seen the Prius ad for a while now...
Oh yeah, and those hilarious ads about how durable the Tacoma is are being played like every 30 minutes and they got so many version of them now.
I don;t think its a "cool factor" its just that the American Makes designed so bad looking cars in the 90's/early 00's(with the exception of Chrysler)that it just rubbed buyers the wrong way. Styling of American Makes styling has gotten alot better though the past 3-5 years.
"That isnt going to be easy to change, especially when the domestic automakers are actually designing better looking cars than the Asians these days."'
I don;t think the American Car Companies are still as good as the Asians at styling a car. Maybe its just my peference. The American Makes are getting there as I said are getting there but no cigar yet(for me anyway.)
"At a certain point people have to become reasonable and base their perception of GM vehicles on what is on sale today as well as evidence from JD Powers and other sources."
other sorces-Consumer Reports always rates GM cars reliability either good(for example Buick)but no line in between. I do buy Consumer Reports but since my parents have had mostly good experiences with GM vehicles I don;t get fazed by CR's bad reliability ratings of GM cars.
and whose fault that is? Apparently I just found out earlier today that Japan doesn't charge tariff on imported vehicles but US does...
I notice a lot of import buyers dont really consider anything beyond the manufacturer they currently own.
Why would they if they are happy with what hey own? I also notice a lot HAPPY domestic owners do not consider anything else either so what's your point? :confuse:
I'm not going to buy a car I'm not crazy about just because "the one I have didnt break down"
Maybe you are not the majority? Maybe other people are just looking for a reliable appliance and not looking for something to make their hair stand up? Sometimes we can see the whole picture better when we are not so rushed to put in our own judgement and/or values.
Of course this type of reasoning explains why Japanese cars no longer offer great value for your money like they used to.
You forgot to put "IMO"...
To me the best values right now in the market are all Japanese: G35 and based TL.
Certainly, Toyota has little to crow about in that arena for well over a decade. Ditto Honda, for the most part. Nissan is now catching eyes with stylish cars, but the "new Nissans" have other problems."
Personally, I don;t see how Ford styled anything better than Honda did in the 90's. Toyota did have the Celica and the last generation RAV 4 in the early 00's which were good looking. I always thought the late 90's Avalon was a nice looking car too.
Thats true GM has slashed their incentives in the past year or so.
I suppose you are commenting on the Silverado ad with your snide remark about "showing what a good ole American company they are" but I fail to see how an add would prevent you from buying a nice truck. I dont like or dislike the ads really, but I've noticed a lot of GM bashers are really up in arms about it and want to swear allegiance to Toyota not."
I think import car fans(not me though) laugh at the patriotic stuff because GM is still trying to sell the "Buy American Theme" but The Buy American American Theme is so early 90's in my opinion. I don;t care about the Patriotic ads that GM is running because commercials don;t make me buy a certain make or model of car.
"I suppose patriotic ads are only acceptable when Toyota is making them to show us how they are an American company now and they are more about Kentucky than Tokyo these days.
Well to be fair Lexus may not take flack for their baby boomer buyers but their little sister Toyota brand did. Remember Toyota was being called out for being a Japanese Buick a few years ago before the Scion(Toyota;s youth brand)came out onto the market.