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You mean like these nuggets from some of your recent posts:
Here's a newsflash for you...
Only in the mind of a delusional import lover...
When you say GM doesn't design anything above average its obvious you are...
You do not have a clue what you are talking about.
It's hard to have a discussion with someone who doesnt know anything about GM's offerings.
Interesting how many times you appears in your posts rather that car x or car y isn't it?
Look at the Chrysler 300 vs. the Ford Five Hundred. Yes, the 300 has the sizzle, but that intrusive driveshaft hump turns the car into a four-seater. And the trunk is smaller than the Five Hundred's also, primarily because of the rear drive. Many midsize fwd cars have more rear seat and trunk room than the 300.
Plus fwd will get you going better in snow without the fancy electronic aids.
Make it a little shorter than most Buicks now, but nice and wide for a good interior size. Totally unobtrusive on-demand 4wd. Totally plush interiors with onstar AND a super easy to use navigation system.
Ad campaign: Early 50's aged father is hero because he and his Buick Quattro deliver all the christmas presents to "grandma's" house in terrible christmas storm. We see him driving fast through beautiful forests in the snow. Grandma (who is his mom) kisses him and his sister (who is the mom of the kids whose presents he brought)both tell him he was pretty smart to buy that Buick. Flashback to him enjoying driving fast in the snow.
Sell 500,000 cars, eh?
I wish GM back on track, but do not see this happens with current upper management.
Fish rotten from he head...
ALL of the namecalling/labelling needs to stop. If your post is about other members or about lump-sum namecalling (import-lovers, GM-loyalists, unpatriotic traitors, garlic-munchers [OK, I made up that last one]), then it's likely to get zapped.
Plus, one comment like that, likely made in desperation when facts or reasoned opinion are no longer available, does a lot to discredit one's entire argument.
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Buick owners don't care if it's FWD or RWD as long as it continues to give the smooth ride and good power without transmission and engine problems in a large, real full-sized car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What's the average age for Buick owners? Somewhere in the high 60s and low 70s I assume? That's not a good sign. Go to a college's parking lot, any company's parking lot and count how many Buicks you can spot. Then go to a retirement house or Florida and count. The stats speak for itself, if Buick doesn't change soon then it might as well be dead in the water.
How many sales will Buick get when the "greatest generation" have left us completely? You think those baby boomers whom grew up with muscle cars and spoiled with MB/BMW/Lexus in their mid-age years are going to Buick for a retirement car?
HA!
Edit: average age of a Buick owner is 68.
havehas left us completely?Actually is may not be realized by some folks but there are new groups of people over 50 every year! The supply of people who want a lower-priced, DTS duplicate increases every year; they want a car that's dependable, well built and attractive as well as roomy for 4, 5, and 6 people.
<whom grew up with muscle cars and spoiled with MB/BMW/Lexus in their mid-age years
I grew up with muscle cars and am on my 7th Buick.
The products coming from GM continually improve. This isn't your father's Oldsmobile anymore. In fact you will be your father at sometime we all hope!
Actually the owners of Buicks' ages are rapidly dropping in this area. I see more people in their 20s driving leSabres and ParkAves all the time. They paint them. They put wheels on them.
I see people in their 30s driving leSabres and ParkAves. I don't look for Centuries as much.
If anything, I'm seeing more elderly people in their Camrys and Accords and in their Hyundae.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm in my 50's. I don't know anyone who aspires to a Buick. As I stated in an earlier post, my 72 year old mother wouldn't buy one; I suspect because she thought it was an "old peoples' car"
No attack here, just a challenge to the statistic that says the average driver of a Buick is 68.
OK, I'll bite on this one. First off, I own a garage/driveway full of GM vehicles: Malibu, GP, and Torrinox.
The Malibu was bought on price. There's nothing particularly exciting about it, and at the time I bought it, I didn't care. I just wanted a vehicle to move me, and I wanted it cheaply. For that role, it has been fine. There has never been a day when it didn't get me to where I was going, and after 140K miles, I still drive it everyday. Other than that, it has no outstanding features.
The GP was bought on mainly looks. Versus the Accord and Mazda6 we almost bought, we simply likely the GP better, mostly on the outside. The interior plastic parts are lacking a certain quality, but frankly that kind of thing is low on my list. The car has decent power, handling, and fuel economy, certainly plenty good for our purposes. The front seats are very comfortable; the back are the opposite, but we are only two, so we didn't care. One nice feature versus the other cars was that the GP has more utility for cargo that your average sedan, as the rear seats fold down very low, the passenger seat in front folds flat, and the rear doors open nearly 90 degrees for a wide opening. At the time this was really a turn on, since we didn't have any type of utility vehicle. Also, it didn't hurt that it was about 5000K less than a comparable Accord.
Torrinox:
Plusses: Again, we liked the styling, much more so than a CRV, RAV4, etc., and it is in general a little more vehicle size-wise. While the Chinese 3.4L wouldn't top my "most-wanted list" for engine choices, for the price of the competition's 4-cyl, it seems to me to still be a better choice (more power, smoother in 'normal' driving). Ride quality was comparable to the competition's, in my view. And again, for the money, we simply got more vehicle (aka price was a factor).
In summary: why I bought? 1) styling (a completely subjective "measure") 2) price (a completely objective measure) 3) performance vs. a comparably priced vehicle (a combination of subjective and objective measures).
As I've in general been satisfied with the reliabilty of my GM vehicles, that really hasn't entered in the process much. If I felt that the vehicle in consideration was junky, I certainly would not buy it, no matter who made it. I can handle taking my GM vehicle back to the dealer once or twice more versus a Toyota. Where it counts most(powertrain, etc), our GM vehicles have been rock solid.
PS: there are plenty of non-GM vehicles we've liked and seriously considered, including Accord (just too boring for me), Maz6 (liked it a lot, almost bought), CRV (underpowered, interior "oddities"), Murano (too expensive in the end, but otherwise love it), so I'm not married to GM in a particular way. That being said, if in my mind things are more or less equal, I would probably buy from the domestic maker.
I found your comment on the Accord "just too boring for me" quite ironic in light of Car and Driver's seeming worship of just about every Honda, BMW, and Porsche. I happen to think Accords are very nice cars, but to win the much-ballyhooed "10Best" award for something like 21 of the last 25 years seems a bit of a stretch to me.
I've driven Accords, and they don't seem all that different overall in comparison to the Camrys I'm used to. In a parallel universe, I might be driving an Accord.
Your response also shows that the buff books' vaunted comparos don't necessarily match up with a given person's priorities.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What's amusing is that GM's management has admitted that the corporation has a big problem in many of the areas repeatedly sited by posters on this site. (Aka, import lovers, although our other car is a Focus made in Michigan. I didn't realize that Michigan is a foreign country. Did it secede from the Union while we weren't watching?)
Bob Lutz has gone on the record as saying that GM must work on interior materials, build quality and overall refinement. Press releases for new vehicles tout reduced panel gaps, nicer interiors and increased silence under operation.
And GM has been making big strides in these areas with its newest releases. Compare an Aura to the outgoing Malibu, or even the G6.
If GM admits that it has had ongoing problems in these areas...can't its fans?
Another problem is that companies can reduce warranty costs by enforcing the warranty to the letter, or simply rejecting more of the "iffy" claims, as opposed to fixing them to build goodwill among customers.
(And before anyone jumps to conclusions - I'm not saying that GM has used these tactics.)
I don't care about new GM or new GM models. It is not easy to forget horror I have been through. As far as I am concerned, GM simply doesn't exist. Thanks to GM that I'm a happy Honda customer now.
Case in point: the W-bodies (GP, Impaler, Lacrosse) have a notorious problem of a clunk in the steering column, due to an intermediate shaft problem. I have known several people with these models who have gotten this repair by the dealers for no cost even AFTER their warranties had expired. Admittedly, it's a rather simple and inexpensive repair as things go, but still they could easily stick it to you for a couple hundred bucks (and their are a lot of these cars out there). Apparently, they decided that the money wasn't worth the damage to future sales.
And I don't mean to start a "which can is more boring?" thread. The attractiveness of a particular car's styling is purely subjective, as is the value of that to the buyer. Plenty of people may really like the Accord, and plenty may not and buy it anyway because styling isn't that important to them. And that's fine with me. To each his own. In today's market, it's great that we each have so many choices.
Toyota: This is our country
This is our country?
This is our country - Miami/FIU style
"This is our country" ad parody
This problem has been around since the Olds Intrigue debuted in the summer of 1997 as a 1998 model. On the Intrigue boards many customers complained of this "clunk." It later showed up in the first front-wheel-drive Impala. GM is apparently replacing old parts with new ones of the same design, because owners complain that the "clunk" eventually returns.
The real problem is that this same problem is still occurring in the same line of cars, almost a decade after it reared its head.
Perhaps, instead of repairing the problem when it occurs, GM redesigns the part to prevent it from happening in the first place? That seems to be the more thorough solution, and the one likely to lead to greater customer satisfaction.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My point is more that lately GM is less in "stick it to the customer mode" and more in "we better make them happy or else they won't come back" mode. It doesn't necessarily make up for the past, but it is a change for the better.
I can't decide which makes me want to vomit in terror more:
The whole Chevy our country/american revolution campaign, or the incessant mentioning by Hyundai and Toyota of how their cars are made in Alabama/Kentucky/wherever.
I've seen Toyota commericals promoting their new Texan Tundra (as in they make a point of mentioning Texas), so clearly there is a "who's more American" war going on in the truck wars.
Here in Ohio, GM runs commericals promoting their Ohio-ness. I can only assume these are common across the country.
I am not sure what commercials you mean. I"m going to have to start paying better attention to the ads>
Toyota has a billboard in Cincy area I want to see again trying to promote their being an American company IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I thought the car was a flop because CAR and Driver didn't think it handled as good as the Accord or Mazda 6 but C&D said it is good car when rebates were factored into the purchase. G6 outsold Mazda 6 by 91K(66K units) units in 2006. The G6 got bashed on these boards as well.
I saw the G6 at an autoshow last year and interior quality was pretty good(only the silver that outlines the gauges were a negative) but that was the only negative I could find about the car other than the exterior styling as I said before needs to be proportioned a little better. I didn;t sit in the backseat though.
Oh yeah hear are some GM brand sales for 2006
Pontiac sold 410K units in 06 vs 437K in 05.
Saturn sold 226K units in 2006 vs 213K in 2005
Buick sold 240K units in 2006 vs 282K units in 2005.
Caddy sold 227K units in 2006 vs 235K units in 2005
GMC sold 456K I think in 2006. Forget how much they sold in 2005.
I don;t have numbers for Chevy.
Whats odd is the article that Rockylee posted on these boards a little while back from Detroit News said GM wanted to concentrate more on Saturn and Buick. I don;t understand that because Pontiac outsells Buick and Saturn.
In all honesty, I myself thought the G6 was pretty good on the inside, but at an autoshow last year, where I was able to compare vehilces very directly, the deficiencies in the interior did show. It was still OK.
Exterior wise, lately I'm finding that the G6 sedan's taillights look a little on the cheap side. The have very little detail, espcially compared to the competiton. This would be a easy fix, though.
"Whats odd is the article that Rockylee posted on these boards a little while back from Detroit News said GM wanted to concentrate more on Saturn and Buick. I don;t understand that because Pontiac outsells Buick and Saturn. "
Beats me. I don't see much of a future for Buick, other than a Chinese one. The Lucerne is still too "old" looking. The Enclave is nice in a Lexus sort of way, but that's about it. I don't see more future sales for Buicks for the medium term future due to the age perception.
Plus, Buick at least has a niche - selling conservative, reliable vehicles to an older, established customer base.
Pontiac is pretty much hemmed in right now - if it becomes more conservative, it overlaps with Buick.
If it tries to be more European or "international" in flavor, it stomps on Saturn's turf.
If it tries to be all-American muscle, it ultimately runs into Chevrolet, which will (or, at least, should) always remain GM's big gun, and will need performance vehicles to boost its image against Ford and Toyota.
If Pontiac survives, it will be a niche brand at best, with Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealers depending largely on their Buicks and GMCs for survival.
All 3 models are bringing the age down. Remember the average age of all vehicle owners is in the high 40's.
The issue is that some here (mostly those who are unfamiliar with GM's current offerings) chose to act like its 1987, not 2007 when it comes to evaluating GM's lineup. We are on a site where anyone who doesn't subscribe to the "GM makes unreliable crap" mantra is labelled a fanatic or fanboy. I'm not sure who you are aiming your comments to, but I assure you I am well aware of what GM needs to work on. I just find it ridiculous for people who would never buy a GM product to say "GM HAS to do X, Y and Z before I will even consider visiting a dealership because I got burned by their products in the early 80s". If you refuse to consider any of their products, that is fine with me, but don't act like you really want to buy a GM vehicle but they don't offer anything worth buying.
I mean Buick in the US they got passed in sales by BMW, Kia, Mazda, BMW, and Mercedes in 2006 but Pontiac is still doing ok when compared to Buick saleswise in the US.
A couple people I haved talked too(one being my father) said that Buick is going down in the past few years. To lose 400K units a year when comprared to 240K I rather kill Buick than Pontiac. I would surely think that Pontiac brings in younger buyers and more showroom taffic(as proved by 2006 sales numbers)than Buick.
Pontiac isnt going to tread on Saturn's turf because Saturn isnt going to have any RWD vehicles outside of the Sky. Pontiac will have the G8 and possibly a GTO replacement. You won't find either at your Saturn dealer and Pontiac will not be selling SUVs.
Shoot, I think that GM can do X, Y, and Z as well as A through W and these guys will think of another reason to bash GM even if the foreign makes failed to accomplish X and/or Z themselves.
I've been gone for what a week now ? My computer took another dive but she is up and running.
I read through most of the 153 posts I've missed and came to the conclusion that no matter what GM, does you will still have die hard bashers :sick:
I'm glad to read a few are impressed with the
"New and improved General Motors" GM, has the longest and best powertrain warranty in the industry and is delivering on it's promise to give consumers better cars.
I'm very proud of Rick Wagoner, and his effort to make GM remain #1. I personally believe the products and technology is only going to get better. I personally would like to see Delphi's Magneride offered on the next Grand Prix, like the report said in Motor Trend and hopefully become standard on the 09' CTS-V.
Brighter days are no longer just right around the corner they are here today.
We should be glad we americans will at least have one domestic car company to cheer for if ford and chrysler happen to fall. I do believe ford, has a chance to turn it around but I'll be surprised if chrysler is able to do the same. Chrysler's latest offerings seem to lack the quality and fit & finish of GM and fords latest offerings. The Sbring does hold a litte hope though. If Mercedes, puts the chrysler side up for sale I'd like to see GM, grab it. It however would be a hard fit as what would you do with Jeep/Hummer or Chrysler/Buick or Dodge/Chevy/Pontiac ????
I'm sure with the right magic wand it could work and Billions of Dollars could be made. GM, could use the CAT diesel technology since they probably should dump the Duramax, since Toyota's likely going to get a version.
Well it's great to be back. I'll be on later.
Rocky
There's no denying the lure of Buick in China, but how many of those Buicks are "American" Buicks? There's alreay enough outcry about how nice the Chinese Buick models are vs. the models available in the U.S.
Combine that will the fact that GM has plenty of brands that are "international" but not available in the US, and there's no apparent reason to believe that Buick has to have a future in the US vs. Pontiac. I don't particularly buy any assertion that killing Buick in the US but not in China would be a worse PR move than simply killing Pontiac.
Also, I'm not advocating killing anything. The question is simply "why is GM focusing on Buick rather than Pontiac?", and I stand by my "beats me" response.
Rocky
That "some" does not include me, so please be more careful when aiming your comments, or letting the "import lover" and "domestic hater" epithets fly.
I am quite familiar with GM's latest offerings, through family members (my parents have been loyal to GM since the late 1960s) and friends, along with regular visits to auto shows.
1487: We are on a site where anyone who doesn't subscribe to the "GM makes unreliable crap" mantra is labelled a fanatic or fanboy.
As opposed to calling anyone who offers an honest critique of what GM needs to do to improve an "import lover" or "uninformed"?
1487: I just find it ridiculous for people who would never buy a GM product to say "GM HAS to do X, Y and Z before I will even consider visiting a dealership because I got burned by their products in the early 80s". If you refuse to consider any of their products, that is fine with me, but don't act like you really want to buy a GM vehicle but they don't offer anything worth buying.
Well, that may be unfair, but that's the reality of what GM faces. Complaining about it on an internet message board isn't going to change it. Nor will calling import owners "stupid," "uniformed," "unpatriotic," etc.
Lots of people left GM because of a bad experience (or a string of bad experiences), and they are satisfied with their current vehicles, and aren't going back unless GM does something spectacular.
It's the same as the ex-con who has been straight for a decade receiving more scrutiny than the honor student when a crime is committed.
Life isn't always fair, whether you are an ex-con or a major corporation.
And, for the record, we own a Honda AND a Ford, and are very happy with both.
GM isn't the only domestic auto maker.
The allure for the Chinese is that Buicks are also made and sold in America. If Buick were to be discontinued in America, it would remove some of the luster of the nameplate for the Chinese.
big_rize: Combine that will the fact that GM has plenty of brands that are "international" but not available in the US, and there's no apparent reason to believe that Buick has to have a future in the US vs. Pontiac. I don't particularly buy any assertion that killing Buick in the US but not in China would be a worse PR move than simply killing Pontiac.
GM has been trying to rationalize its brands, and has been giving more emphasis to the ones that are international.
GM doesn't have to directly kill Pontiac. With the increasing consolidation of the Pontiac-GMC and Buick dealer networks, GM faces lower buyout costs for dealers left without a vehicle to sell if Pontiac dies. Pontiac can simply fade away...and Buick and GMC will take over and keep the dealers happy.
GM was reviewing Pontiac's future during 2006. The only new Pontiac in the works was the next-generation G6. Everything else was gone (shades of Oldsmobile).
Now the G8 has apparently received a green light, but it is a rebadged Holden and will apparently be imported from Australia, which looks like a low-cost strategy to keep Pontiac alive for at least a few more years. Pontiac obviously isn't receiving a heavy investment of dollars for new product.
I don't need a crystal ball to see which marque is in danger, regardless of the sales figures.
I think GM, needs to bring back the Bonneville and make it the size or bigger than the current DTS but with RWD. It needs to be flat out big but very sporty. Kind of like a poor mans BMW 7 series. The G8/Grand Prix will be as big as the CTS and focus more on sport than luxury. I'd make the interior very sporty like the Acura TL, and offer a Bose 5.1, Ventilated Sport Seats with hip huggers, Voice Recognition w/ Navigation, Delphi's adjustable Magneride, and of course big V8 powertrains with the Ecotec turbo 4-cylinder from the sky/soltice as the base engine and keep it as a option on the top trim. The base engine with any trim strategy employed on the Malibu is a great idea and I'd expand that program throughout the line-up.
The base Bonneville if such a car existed would be the 3.6 High Feature V6 w/ 2-mode hybrid with the 6.2 V8 VVT from the Escalade/Denali in GXP trim.
GM, shouldn't let Pontiac die because their is lots of potential for the brand if they go RWD. How bout another Firebird/Trans-Am that's more upscale than the Camaro and offers Corvette level of features and more power starting at $35K and in 550-600 hp trim would be $40-45K.
I like I said just see so much potential for a legendary brand. It doesn't have to be a Chevy Cloned brand. It can move upmarket to comepte with Acura/BMW/Mitsubishi types......
Rocky
Who the heck is going to pay close to $40K for a Pontiac when he/she can just opt for the CTS.
Also, If the G8 is around $40K then how much should GM price the "flat out big" sporty Bonneville? I would say close to $50K.
A $50K Pontiac? That would be the best joke in automobile industry for quiet sometimes...
You see the problem here? GM has too many models and sometimes they compete in the same market.
I was saying the G8/GP would be much more sporty than luxury. I'd think more Acura TL-ish/Mitsubishi EVO-X in terms of car design. The CTS, probably will be more expensive in top trim lets say $45-49K in top trim. The G8/GP could be top out at $40K meaning it could be thousands less than a CTS. The G8/GP would like I said would focus much more on sport, than luxury. The wood interior and supple leather would be a Cadillac thing. The Grand Prix/G8 would get quality rubber and carbon fiber trim like on the Acura TL and would be RWD only with no AWD option. I do think GM, made a small mistake with not offering magneride on the CTS. I'd offer just a sport suspension on the G8/GP but leave magneride for the Cadillac. Perhaps some marketters at GM, know better than I and have this problem worked out already. I just hope the G8/GP don't get shorted over it !!!!
Rocky
Basically boring, softer ride, conservative styling both inside and out a nice comfortable car. You can have the majority of the vehicles as FWD/AWD and maybe one RWD car although I think they could survive with none.
Pontiac all RWD all the time and much lower volume then it has now. Make that excitement division moniker mean something. Kill the G6 and come out with a coupe version of the Solstice and maybe a sedan version on a stretched platform. These cars would be three parts sport, two parts style and one part luxury. Don't make the interiors cheap but they would be down market from Buick or Caddy. NO SUV's
Caddy is more a mercedes emulator. The highest level of prestige and luxury with the most up market interior and exteriors. More comfortable ride then the Pontiac or the Buick models except on the V series cars which should have an adjustable suspension.
That leaves Chevy as the base model line cars except for the corvette of course.
GMC is more luxury oriented trucks with special "profesional grade equipment".
Not sure where that leaves saturns except maybe european flavored/imported american vehicles to fight the japanese imports.. :confuse:
In the 90s maybe but recently Lexus has slowly moved away from that image, however, Buick stays the same as the builder of boring, soft, conservative and FWD cars.
So let's see...boring, extremely soft, conservative and all FWDs, hmm...I really think Buick is "in a league of its own".
Maybe Toyota could fit into that category if one must.
Everytime Lexus tries to make an exciting car they just fall flat. If Buick can hit the soft conservative mark with nice reilable comortable cars they will grab a portion of Lexus's marketshare. They only need to grab a portion not all of it.
Century is gone. That vehicle used to be able to be bought at well under $20k and was found at every rental company en masse. The LaCrosse base price is right around where the lower volume, low rental fleet vehicle Regal was. There goes about 150,000 units a year from Buick.
Same for the LeSabre/Park Avenue. I am not as familiar with these but the LeSabre could be found much closer to $20k price point than the Lucerne can be. The Lucerne took over the high end of the LeSabre and all the Park market. Again the LeSabre used to sell huge numbers.
Buick not too long also sold the Skylark which is gone.
The truck model Rainier was always a low volume vehicle only there to help the standalone buick dealers which will soon be gone. (dealers and Rainier) Same with the minivan which is also gone. Rendezvous did well but not enough to make up for all those missing Centurys and Lesabres.
Buick is down to 3 models and now dualed with GMC/Pontiac.
For me it is Saturn that really is the outlier in GM showrooms. They are to close to Chevy in pricepoint and customer needs. They are not luxury like Buick, not sporty like Pontiac. More basic transportion like Chevy EXCEPT Saturn is more acceptable to import intenders.
Perhaps one of Fords premium brands like Jag but I hope they do not do that. they have enough on their plate already.
Pontiac has a newer G6 while Buick has nothing in that market.
Grand Prix came out just before LaCrosse and both will be replaced at about the same time. In fact it looks like the new GP replacement may be here next year.
Pontiac has the G5 now. Now they did make a mistake and did not design a specific coupe for them when the Cobalt was done but there will be a new small coupe in the future. This G5 was a product planning MISTAKE being partially fixed.
They do have the Torrent but that will go away from Pontiac soon.
No I do not see any uneveness in the treatment of Buick and Pontiac. With the dualing of GMC/Pontiac/Buick we hopefully will see little overlap between them and see affordable premium truck/sporty/comfort vehicles in one place.