General Motors discussions

62vetteefp

I need to disagree. GM is cutting total rental fleet another 100,000 this year which is a big drop. (10-15%) Yes they may move some of the older models into the fleets and not rent out the newer models but overall they are reducing fleet volume. Remember many of the plants they have agreements to close are not closed yet. They are still producing cars tehy do not need.

I have read that rentals $$ are already going up but I do not know since I have not rented in years.

corvettefan427

I very strongly must urge you to reconsider your decision, (if you're at all serious), about buying the Porsche over the Corvette. Now obviously, from my name, you can tell I love Corvettes, there's no point to try and hide it. However, in just about every publication I've read the Corvette Z06 dominates all competition (Porsches definitely included). Heck, the Z06 will beat any Ferrari on the market now in a straight line, and uses the same suspension parts as the 599 GTB, and I've seen it go up to 1.27 g's of grip, so this car easily bests any Ferrari for sale now. The Z06 is also .1 seconds faster than the 600 hp new Viper. This car is a force to be reckoned with, and for a base price of $65,000 how can you go wrong?

louiswei

corvettefan427, I agree with you, I too favor Corvette over Porsche for a weekend fun car. I was just pissing at Rocky for making those idiotic comments. I am thinking:

1. Corvette vs Caymen S
2. Corvette Z06 vs 911 S

If I want to be conservative I'll go with option 1, option 2 is for when I want to go all out. Although I do generally prefer import over domestic but I have made a promise to myself that there are 2 cars I have to have in my lifetime. One is Corvette and the other is Acura NSX.

torque_r

Full-size Pickup truck sales for 2006:

1- Ford F-Series: ------ 796,039 down 12%
2- Chevy Silvarado: ---- 636,069 down 10%
3- Dodge Ram: ---------- 364,177 down 9%
4- GMC Sierra: --------- 210,736 down 10%
5- Toyota Tundra: ------ 124,508 down 1%
6- Nissan Titan: ------- 72,192 down 17%
7- Chevy Avalanche: ---- 57,076 down 8%
8- Lincoln Mark LT: ---- 12,753 up 24%
9- Cadillac EXT: ------- 7,019 down 10%

bigo08

Wow More Mark LT's were sold than the Slade EXT

62vetteefp

Well Gas is at $1.99 here at 3 stations. Under $2 again. The news states that something happened to keep crude oil prices down.

nippononly

sales edged out F-series again this last year. In 2007, I expect to see GM's lead widen here, although I think overall sales in the segment may be down for a second year. Perhaps this will be the year when the Silverado unseats the F-series as best-selling vehicle in the U.S. for what, going on 26 years? I hope F-150 vs Silverado doesn't turn into a rebate war near year's end. That would be bad for both Ford AND GM.

nippononly

Gas here is at $2.61-$2.69. The news mentioned that crude prices took a big dip last week, then took a moderate spike yesterday, and that OPEC is calling a meeting soon to talk about restricting exports again, which will raise the price some more. Even now, in the warmest winter in forever in the U.S., and at the time of year when driving is traditionally reduced, oil is near $60/bbl. I think we can count on prices over $3/gallon (at least here in California) again after Memorial Day, maybe as soon as mid-April if 2006 is anything to judge by.

It would be great if GM could have the Yukon hybrid ready by then, instead of later in the year for the '08 model year.

Kirstie_H

To our Tundra vs Silverado discussion.

62vetteefp

My name is Edward, and I'm a Saturn basher.

Ever since the first one rolled off the assembly line in Spring Hill, Tennessee, 16 years ago, I have wantonly ridiculed Saturns and the Americans who buy them.

In the early days, when one of our reporters came to a staff meeting with the recording of a Saturn engine and compared it with the sound of a Waring kitchen blender, I howled with delight. It was wonderful.

For a decade and a half, I've loved to ridicule Saturn's brand DNA by describing it as the car for people who don't like cars but need transportation and want to be treated well at the dealership. You know, like librarians.

Nothing could make me give up my shameful ways. Not the SL1 or SL2. Not the L series, the Relay, the Vue, the Ion or the Outlook. They all just reinforced my view that Saturns would always be dowdy and dull.

But something happened to me when I drove the Sky, that better-looking sibling of the Pontiac Solstice and next year's Opel GT.

"This isn't bad," I thought. "It must be a fluke."

Later, because I'm a judge of the North American Car and Truck of the Year awards, I spent some quality time in a Saturn Aura. It changed my life.

Now, thanks to General Motors product czar Bob Lutz, I'm in recovery.

At first I was skeptical of his plan to have Opel and Saturn share vehicles. After all, it didn't work last time when Saturn L-series cars were reworked versions of the old Opel Vectra. But the Aura, which is based on the new Vectra, is a swell automobile.

The difference? Last time, the company created the L series by Saturnizing an Opel. This time, it Opelized a Saturn.

GM's ability to execute the plan surprised a lot of people and may be why the Aura is a finalist for the North American Car of the Year. The other finalists, the Honda Fit and Toyota Camry, are formidable competition. But if you had told me a year ago that a

Saturn would be a finalist, I wouldn't have believed it.

Gosh, it's great to have that off my chest.

louiswei

He's got a point though.

Before Aura, Sky and the new Crossover (Outlook?), I would have no problem being called a Saturn basher. As matter of fact, judge from Saturn's previous products, they deserved to get bashed. Whole new different ball game now however...

Same goes for Cadillac.

62vetteefp

Same goes for all products introduced in the last 2 years?

Pick ups, SUV's, Lamdas, Aura, Malibu, CTS, corvette, SRX interior, H3, Lucerne, and then we get back further in time and into good attempts but not quite outstanding like the Impala, LaCrosse, Cobalt, G6/5.

1487

even some of GM's "mediocre" vehicles that are bashed by the press and GM haters arent that bad. Honestly, there is nothing about the Lacrosse, G6, Cobalt or Impala that prevent me from recommending them to someone. The Lacrosse and Impala in my eyes are no worse than the Accord or pre-2007 Camry. I drove a rentail Lacrosse CXL and it was quiet, adequately powerful and had a soft touch interior. Objectively speaking it was no worse than other average midsize sedans. I will say this, the Lacrosse actually has a better interior than the Aura even though the Lacrose has been panned by the press and the Aura has gotten accolades. If you compare the softness of materials and interior details the Lacrosse is better even though it's 3 years older. And for all the talk about GM "finally" offering the 3.6L in a midsize family car you would forget the Lacross had had it since '05 MY.

The Cobalt is another car that gets beat up all the time and I dont know why. It's mileage is mediocre due to its class leading standard hp and engine size. Aside from that it has a decent interior, 3 engines, two body styles, 4 wheel sizes and its refined. It lacks the spaceship looks of the civic and the handling of the 3 (except for SS/SC coupe) but overall it's solid.

louiswei

Same goes for all products introduced in the last 2 years?

Not really, except Cadillac like I said...

Chevy: The juries for new Malibu are still out, until one actually test drive the car and get a chance to sit inside nobody will know how good it is. Current gen Impala is a so-so car, not on par with Aura significant-wise. Cobalt is a failure as GM's attempt to be competitive in the compact sedan segment, needs better effort in this area.

Pontiac: G6 drives good but interior is typical GM fit-and-finish. See Cobalt for G5. Anything else worth mentioning in Pontiac's lineup? I don't think so...

Buick: Lucerne's a decent entry, needs RWD though, so in a way it's like a half-a** effort in GM's part. I expect to see next gen Lucerne to be if Caddy decides to go RWD on the next DTS (which they should). New crossover should be good since it's a badge-engineered Saturn Outlook, however, juries are still out on this one. As for LaCrosse, what about it? GM should bring the Asian LaCrosse over, stick the 3.6 in there and call it a day.

Saab: Needs interior overhaul for the whole lineup. The current one is a shame against other mid-luxury brands like Acura and even Volvo. IMO, even Mazda, Subaru and Honda have better interior than Saab.

Hummer: Don't know much about it and don't really care for the brand. Seems doing well though. BTW is there going to be a H4 to compete with CR-V and RAV4?

GMC: GM (and domestics in general) never have problems producing good trucks.

Silverado is a truck so although it's a Chevy I don't see anything wrong with it. Winning NA truck of the year speaks for itself. Too bad the Tundra didn't get to launch in time otherwise it should be exciting to see Silverado and Tundra battle it out. With the lack of competition, I can already see Tundra winning that title for next year.

As for Corvette, I refuse to acknowledge that it's a Chevy. :P

imidazol97

>my name is Edward, and I'm a Saturn basher.
Ever since the first one rolled off the assembly line in Spring Hill, Tennessee, 16 years ago, I have wantonly ridiculed Saturns and the Americans who buy them.
In the early days, when one of our reporters

So there was a pattern of 'dislike' for (at least one)GM cars by 'at least one' member of the media.

fintail

It's all a conspiracy!

The crappiness of the cars has nothing to do with it.

If it is adequate, mediocre, good enough, then that's all it needs to be!

imidazol97

The scales are relative scales. Many people just want transportation and don't need the exquisite experience of a BMW or MB. Then mix in those who feel their car is best because they're used to style or dashboard arrangement of feel of the car's ride and judge that anything different must be junk. Then mix in some bad products that seemed to be in patterns in the 80s and early 90s and you have a pattern.

Good enough gets people there. I found that true about our friend's 95 Civic. It was minimal. Probably the same as someone might judge the Saturn base models minimal. But it got here there. But oddly she didn't even look at replacement Hondas; maybe she did realize the probablys I pointed out with the car (stapling the headliner back up as a good clue); she shopped Toyo at an awful dealer and just hurried up to consummate a deal because she hates car shopping. I couldn't even get her to stop at the Saturn deal about 14 miles away.

fintail

But this isn't about the high end...it's about the normal end. People still want more than "adequate" and "good enough", whether they are buying luxury, a Camcord, or a compact. It's something that haunts the domestic industry as a whole. Sometimes, it is easy to get an impression that they aren't trying as hard as they can (well, they are trying hard now...but past experiences shape future trends). A 95 Civic could be very basic, but no more so than a similar Saturn or Cavalier, but with better resale, likely better reliability, and probably better to drive, too. We need a long string of cars that are worlds better than "good enough" if the domestics are to be viable in the long term.

grbeck

louiswei: Buick: Lucerne's a decent entry, needs RWD though, so in a way it's like a half-a** effort in GM's part. I expect to see next gen Lucerne to be if Caddy decides to go RWD on the next DTS (which they should).

GM has to be careful here...recently my parents asked me about the Cadillac CTS for their next car. When I told them it was rear-wheel-drive, my mother promptly asked whether the Lucerne is still front-wheel-drive. When I told her that it is, she replied, "Well, I guess we'll stick with a Buick." Not everyone likes rear-wheel-drive.

GM can't afford to "pull an Oldsmobile" and fire the existing customers without making sure that there is another product within the corporate stable for them.

62vetteefp

Issue with LaCrosse is styling and being a Buick. Interior is almost all soft vinyl/plastic. Much more than any vehicle in its class and the same as vehicles like the old ES (have not been in the new one.
Styling interior and out is just too conservative. Being a Buick MUST mean it is for old people.

anythngbutgm

How nice of Mr. Wagoner to take the time to write such a nice essay.

62vetteefp

So, you basically agree with what I said. The Impala is one of the cars I said was so-so and out before the last 2 years. Cobalt is not a failure and is selling reasonably well. Not as good as Corolla and Civic but in top 10 for sales. Not bad for a failure.

G6 again one of the older vehicles before Lutz.

Your complaint with Lucerne is FWD, well so are its competition Avalon and ES which it outsells. LaCrosse again is older than 2 years and fits my description even though my previous post says what I think.

louiswei

Hmm...Okay, I'll give you that, I guess I do basically agree with what you said.

lemko

LaCrosse: Ask the Woman Who Owns One.

My girlfriend is very happy with her 2005 Buick LaCrosse CXL. There was always that rule about not buying a GM car in its first year, but it definately does not apply to her LaCrosse. The longevity of my 1988 Buick Park Avenue has also had a positive influence on my girlfriend's opinion of Buick. She most definately would consider another Buick in the future. She's as proud of her Buick as others may be of their BMW, Cadillac, Lexus, or Mercedes.

xrunner2

Buick: Lucerne's a decent entry, needs RWD though, so in a way it's like a half-a** effort in GM's part.

Wonder if any surveys, market studies that show that existing or potential Lucerne buyers want RWD.

Could understand that Lucerne buyers in snow/ice belt climates seek out FWD cars because they handle better (in snow/ice/wet), but do Lucerne buyers in warm climates even realize when first test driving car and then buying it that it is FWD? Isn't demo of buyers generally the elderly who drive very conservatively? Drivers of Lucernes, LeSabres, Park Avenues, big Caddies are usually cruising, poking along when I see them.

Perhaps a GM switch to RWD on Lucerne could alienate a lot of those buyers who specifically want FWD. If GM could save "significant" costs in RWD over FWD, then could make the case along with big campaign on tv ads that RWD (with traction control, stability) is almost as good as FWD.

corvettefan427

Holy crap! only $1.99. Gas prices for regular where I am in California are around $2.50, and I'm pretty far in eastward, they only get higher as you move west towards the bay.

louiswei

I've notice something in the last several posts. That's one would automatically assume that Buick is for older people (especially Lucerne) and they don't give a crap about it being FWD/AWD/RWD. You see, that's exactly what Buick's problem is. If it can't break out of that stereotyping then I really don't see a future in this brand.

I, first of all think GM should just get rid of Buick since they already have Caddy as the premium brand. However, if they insist to keep it, then make it GM's VW fighter. VW IMO is in somewhat of a weird situation too because it's not really a mainstream brand (like Chevy, Ford, Toyota and Honda) and neither is it a luxury brand. However, VW did manage to make a name of themselves by offering AWD and nimble FWD cars. If GM doesn't think that going RWD on Lucerne is a good idea at least offer AWD as option on the next gen model.

62vetteefp

The next Lacrosse will be on epsilon II and that platform is capable of AWD. It is supposed to be stunning per "embargoed" press who have seen it.

Not sure what Lucerne will be BUT I do not forsee the current FWD large platform continuing on. Most likely DTS/STS will combine into one platform (sigma) and be AWD. That leaves Lucerne in the cold and therefore will most likely go Zeta in 2010 and perhaps DTS will go the same way but I doubt it.

the following I believe are long term goals for GM.

Pontiac is going RWD with a premium sporty bent but not priced near luxury. It will be priced under infiniti, BMW, Lexus, Acura etc. But above Toyota and Honda.

I see Buick continuing on the path it has set with a premium niche but again not luxury or near luxury pricing. The Enclave is a perfect example. It is premium, not sporty. It will be priced under offerings from Cadillac and Lexus but above Chevrolet, Saturn, Toyota, Honda, etc.

i think we will see Cadillac moving up in price point.

agentstirling

i agree with him!

62vetteefp

Issue will be an economical way of providing a large FWD car. Currently there is the DTS/Lucerne and I guess the Lamda. With the low volume Lucerne I cannot see it going alone as the only large GM FWD vehicle. So if DTS does go RWD Lucerne will have to do something else. I wonder if Zeta will ever go AWD.

bumpy

If the Impala had stayed FWD, it could have become the Lucerne's platform mate. Maybe GM could revive the Caprice as a downmarket Lucerne, giving it the 3.9 and 5.3 from the current Impala while the Lucerne II gets the 3.6 and whatever replaces the Northstar?

torque_r

- Minivan market is shrinking, but don't tell Honda, Toyota and Kia.

- The real minivans in the Market are the Caravan, Town & Country, Odyssey and Sienna. The rest are not even worth mentioning.

1- Dodge Caravan: ---------- 211,140 down 7%
2- Honda Odyssey: ---------- 177,919 up 3%
3- Toyota Sienna: ---------- 163,269 up 2%
4- Chrysler T & C: --------- 159,105 down 12%

5- Chevy Uplander: --------- 58,699 down 20%
6- Kia Sedona: -------------- 57,018 up 8%
7- Ford Freestar: ----------- 50,125 down 35%
8- Nissan Quest: ------------ 31,905 down 21%
9- Pontiac SV6: ------------ 13,100 down 44%
10- Hyundai Entourage: ------ 12,206 new
11- Buick Terraza: ---------- 11,948 down 41%
12- Saturn Relay: ----------- 7,171 down 55%
13- Mercury Monterey: ------- 4,467 down 45%

62vetteefp

MIght have worked. However it would still mean GM would have to have developed a new architecture to replace the W and C platforms. Usage could have kept 1 1/2 plants buzy. But I think GM is really trying to minimize the number of architectures.

nippononly

Nissan, with the Quest. They tried so hard with the redesign, and managed to sell HALF what the fleet special GM and Ford vans sold. They are my prediction for the next manufacturer to leave the minivan segment.

nwng

hyundia/kia should pick up GM/Ford's minivan market, if they choose to go that route

62vetteefp

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070110/AUTO01/701100407/1148-

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. says it's getting outgunned by Toyota Motor Corp. in Washington, D.C.

Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman for product development, said the world's largest automaker has had less political pull than the Japanese company for some time.

"Toyota outspends us. They have more congressmen and senators than we have," Lutz told a group of reporters Tuesday at the North American International Auto Show. "Toyota has more clout in Washington than we do."

Japanese automakers have gained political power as they locate factories in the South. Toyota employs 39,000 workers in six North American plants. GM, meanwhile, has seen its work force fall to about 140,000. Toyota's world market share is on pace to surpass GM's this year.

Political pull matters when it comes to issues such as regulatory mandates and tougher fuel economy standards. Harley Shaiken, a labor expert at the University of California-Berkeley, pinpointed public policy, namely the lack of national health care coverage, as one of the main contributors to the woes of Detroit car companies.

Lutz was less than optimistic about GM's status in Washington.

"I try not to go to Washington too often," he said. "I find it profoundly depressing."

torque_r

Well, what do you expect? GM has been closing factories, laying off workers, and tensing up relations with suppliers. At the same time, Toyota is building more plants, hiring more people, and is a favorate manufacturer among suppliers. So Yes, I would assume those politicians see Toyota as the golden-egg chicken that everyone wants a piece of.

imidazol97

If anyone didn't figure that out when Bushe said he wasn't going to recommend helping US automakers a year or so ago...., I have a bridge I'll sell. Good bargain. You'll own it for life. :P

But to quote those on the other side of losing business and jobs... it's okay because they employ local workers and give them moderate pay and provide jobs here.

Errr, that is currently, --until they start moving plants to other cheaper areas once they have the whole market turned to foreign brands inside US... :mad:

imidazol97

Here in Ohio several companies and groups had special lines of connection to the politicians on the red side in Columbus. Those politicians felt they were above rules and laws, and even made up some as they went as I see it. The governor was convicted of accepting gifts. A whole bunch of other stuff didn't make it all the way. A friend and donor took the workmans compensation fund for millions in coin investments (grin); he's on his way to jail.

We voted them all out in November. We even took out a US Senator (DeWine). I don't think a single red person is left in Columbus. They played fast and loose in their lame duck session on the way out thumbing their noses at voters' wishes and trying to make things difficult for the blue team once they took over in Columbus. E.g., all of a sudden they passed contribution limits for certain lobbying groups and unions that had been asked for but the red team didn't want while they were in.

We can make the same changes in Washington for those who favor money and business and "dirty" business for their own benefit instead of the future of our kids and of the US. One example would be supporting and furthering the US auto business (what's left).

smittynyc

Whine, complain, cry, and ultimately give up.

That sends a great message to your staff, to your shareholders, to your possible customers, and to Wall Street.

Keep up the good work, Bob!

1487

yes they are about to give up. Thats why they just launched the new CTS and Malibu and are bringing the G8 and Astra here later this year. He is just stating facts, it has nothing to do with whining or giving up. The truth is the truth whether or not Lutz acknowledges it.

I guess it would be better if he went around tell lies like Toyota, saying things like "we dont care about being #1, it's not important to us". Yeah right, thats why they are producing 4 Runners that no one wants and dealers are offering $5000 discounts. Companies that don't care about sales races dont overproduce and then sell their wares for thousands under MSRP.

1487

Here's a newsflash for you: Most non-luxury vehicles are mediocre. They have mediocre power, uninspired looks, decent, but not sporty handling and mediocre equipment levels.

Only in the mind of a delusional import lover can GM models be criticized for being merely "adequate" when the most popular cars in America are the corolla, Camry 4 cylinder, Accord 4 cylinder and Civic. I would love for you to tell me what is so stellar about a 4 banger Accord/Camry with cloth seats and wheelcovers. Obviously a car can be mediocre and reliable and that is what Honda/Toyota offer you in most models. Now if your argument is that GM gives you vehicles that are unreliable and mediocre then that is a different story altogether. The truth of the matter is most affordable vehicles are relatively mundane and you cant provide any proof that Japanese vehicles are exempt. Feel free to try though but please spare me any crap about "great engineering" or "built in quality". The new altima has gooseneck trunk hinges, how about that for great engineering. The cobalt doens't even have those.

I do have to wonder what people get out of trying to prove to others that GM is bad for their diet and bad for america. If you are happy with Honda and Toyota ruling the sales charts than I dont see why GM's issues are something to worry about. Toyo/Honda are doing great so I don't see why you are so mad at GM. You should be happy, GM's failures have paved the way for import domination.

210delray

Well, then Lutz shouldn't be whining.

Toyota outspends us. They have more congressmen and senators than we have," Lutz told a group of reporters Tuesday

I didn't know auto companies "owned" our national legislators. I thought we the people still hold the ultimate power -- to vote them out. Similar to what happened in Ohio, Virginians did just that to Sen. Allen, after it became clear there wasn't much substance behind the facade.

Besides, Detroit still has a very powerful congressman and supporter in John Dingell, the longest-serving rep (since 1955!).

210delray

Well, in defense of fintail, he is a Mercedes guy.

As for what is so stellar about a 4 banger Accord/Camry with cloth seats and wheelcovers, well I've had 3 (currently 2) Camrys and they've been super reliable, a couple of orders magnitude above the 1990 Mercury Sable that preceded them (complete with failed tranny for the latter). And those cloth seats, along with a smooth ride, have been very comfortable. Plastic wheel covers? Well, I replaced mine on my '04 with alloys from an Avalon - they look great. Also, roomy trunks, well-laid out engine compartments for easy self-servicing, good visibility, nice sound systems, great air conditioning, user-friendly cruise control, decent handling for the way I drive, great fuel economy, and more than adequate acceleration.

Even though C&D and their ilk go on and on about Camrys being boring, I have to say I really enjoy driving them, but then again, I have VW Rabbits, a Volvo 240, a '67 Bel Air (and for that matter the Sable) as reference points.

210delray

thats why they [Toyota] are producing 4 Runners that no one wants and dealers are offering $5000 discounts. Companies that don't care about sales races dont overproduce and then sell their wares for thousands under MSRP

Uh, where did you get those numbers? I just checked Edmunds on an '07 4Runner SR5 4x4 V8 with all of the "typical" options checked off and came up with the following:

Total with Options retail: $32,570, invoice: $29,153, Edmunds' TMV: $31,684

Incentives & Rebates -$1,200
Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $30,484

Incentives & Rebates
2007 Toyota 4Runner
SR5 4dr SUV 4WD (4.7L 8cyl 5A)

Manufacturer to Customer

Rebates $1200 Cash to Customer start: 01/03/2007 end: 01/31/2007

Restrictions $1200 Customer cash may not be combined with 1.9% - 3.9% APR.

Financing Leasing There are no special lease terms available at this time.

fintail

And here's a newsflash for you - some types of mediocrity are found by the market to be more tolerable, and the sins of the past require more than mediocrity as penance.

Please refrain from using quotes where there is nothing actually quoted.

I'd love to see GM and Ford smack Toyota and Honda upside the head...but mediocrity won't make it happen.

lahiri

GM wants you to buy Chevy/ Pontiac when you are young. When you get old, GM expects you to switch to Buick. So, Buick is for old people. Question for consumers like us is then "do we consider ourselves old enough to buy a Buick?"

grbeck

1487: Here's a newsflash for you: Most non-luxury vehicles are mediocre. They have mediocre power, uninspired looks, decent, but not sporty handling and mediocre equipment levels.

The company that sells great vehicles in the non-luxury class will rise above this problem.

GM once knew this - for three examples, check out the 1955-57 Chevrolets, Oldsmobile Cutlasses from the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the downsized GM big cars from 1977 on. Even people who couldn't afford a Cadillac were happy and proud to drive those vehicles.

Unfortunately, since about 1980 GM seems to have been guided by the maxim you described, hence the constant decline in market share and multi-billion dollar losses.

1487: Only in the mind of a delusional import lover can GM models be criticized for being merely "adequate" when the most popular cars in America are the corolla, Camry 4 cylinder, Accord 4 cylinder and Civic.

The problem is that GM's competitive offerings are inferior to rival Hondas and Toyotas in those respective market segments, although the new Saturn Aura is a giant step forward for GM.

If the recently unveiled Malibu drives as good as it looks, that may change. But it is not on the market as of yet.

1487: The truth of the matter is most affordable vehicles are relatively mundane and you cant provide any proof that Japanese vehicles are exempt.

You must have forgotten about the Civic Si, and Accord V-6 six speed. So there's your proof right there. The basic Civic and Accord are pretty remarkable, too.

1487: Feel free to try though but please spare me any crap about "great engineering" or "built in quality".

Well, if you want to ignore those factors, go ahead, but most reviewers and consumers aren't. Hence, recent trends in the sales charts.

For that matter, ignoring them for far too long is what landed GM in its present pickle.

1487: If you are happy with Honda and Toyota ruling the sales charts than I dont see why GM's issues are something to worry about. Toyo/Honda are doing great so I don't see why you are so mad at GM. You should be happy, GM's failures have paved the way for import domination.

No, we are happy that excellence is rewarded in the marketplace, and, judging by the new Vue, Malibu, CTS and the crossovers, the message has finally penetrated GM headquarters, which means that everyone - including those who like GM cars, those who sell them and those who build them - will win in the long run.

louiswei

Here's a newsflash for you: Most non-luxury vehicles are mediocre.

But sadly, GM cars (or domestic in general) normally aren't even "the best of mediocres". Why would ANYBODY want to pay a premium for cars like Accord and Camry if GM can produce one in exact same quality (inside and out) and performance with cheaper sticker (which they normally are)? There are customers out there just want "adequate", "good enough" or "value". But there are also customers like me whom wants "the best IN THE MEDIOCRE CLASS", which GM ain't.

BTW, import domination isn't a good thing for market nor for the country. We need a strong GM to offer strong competition and that's what's best for us customers.

62vetteefp

I think he is talking '06 model. The '07 model has $1500 on it which is 3 times what they have on their cars.