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General Motors discussions

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  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wonder how many people that profess to be loyal to American car companies buy clothing NOT made in the USA (most), or furniture (more and more from China, Thailand, etc), computers and electronics, aircraft (Airbus is distinctly European), and the list goes on.

    Shoot I would buy American clothing, electronics, furniture, etc. if I could STILL FIND those items made in the USA. If I can, I will go out of my way to buy American goods even if I have to spend more or go out of my way to find them. I'm positive all my furniture was made here as it is mostly antique.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    lemko,

    I like your taste. :)

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    OK, I think you are probably confusing me with others that have posted here. For instance, I never "asserted that the C6 is the only worthwhile Big 3 vehicle on the market". In fact, I couldn't care less about the Corvette or most of its ilk. They are great to dream about, even drool over a little from time to time, and the current model Corvette is clearly the finest one yet by several lengths. But two-seat sports cars are far too impractical a choice to ever be on my buying list.

    Long ago, I drove the 4-cylinder Malibu, when the current gen had just come out. I won't say what my impressions were, don't want to tick you off, but this is another car I would say was easily outclassed by the ToyHon competition. But they also cost more than that model, so you get what you pay for.

    Here:
    "What about the Acadia, SRX, Silverado/Sierra, STS-V, XLR, G6, Solstice, Lucerne, 300, Fusion, Pacifica, Cobalt SS, Aura, etc.? Not to mention the upcoming Vue, Malibu, Equinix Sport and CTS. "
    you mention a great many models. I stand by my statement that the General's forte remains BOF full-size trucks and SUVs as well as large cars. If you like, I will add the over-amped mondo-engine sports models which don't usually get on my radar, like all the Cadillac -V models and the Corvette plus the Z06. Some of these have placed very well in magazine comparisons, which is my sole knowledge of and interest in them - I have only ever driven one anywhere similar to it, the current and now discontinued GTO, which I found to be not to my tastes at all, but very fast in its own right. Sounds like Cadillac is now matching up to the fastest German models very well, while easily surpassing the best the Japanese have to offer. The only comment I can add is that I have sat in the Cadillacs at auto shows, and don't care much for the interiors. Ditto BMW.

    I fully expect the Acadia and cousins to do very well, and be highly competitive in their segments. You mention the Lucerne, Cobalt, and G6, all of which I have driven as rentals and been underwhelmed by, but which are at least decent in their respective categories. You also mention the Fusion and 300, which are not made by GM. ;-)

    I think this is mostly a question of individual tastes - why is that so hard to understand for the GM fans? Not everyone wants the fastest car in the herd for their commute vehicle, or even a V-6 under the hood. And not everyone wants a big car.

    Kudos to GM for grabbing NACOTY/NATOTY for Silverado and Aura - they have shed enough blood sweat and tears to deserve to see reward from their labors. Perhaps the question becomes (or has perennially been): if as the GM fans assert, GM vehicles are every bit as good in every way (and in many ways better) as their competition, how then to bring back the lost market share, the buyers that have gone elsewhere? 1487 himself says that 700K CamCord buyers each year will buy those models again just because they know little about cars and it is what they are "supposed" to buy. Just as one example. Is there something GM can do to counteract this process?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >2. Do no agree to take your car back unless they find the problem and fix it.

    Foreign car stores wouldn't do that; only American brand dealers are incompetent and don't do their job. Grin...


    3. If they are trying to dance around the issue then talk to the manager. If the manager is a dancer too then I would first raise hell right there and later on call Toyota NA and raise hell again.

    Foreign car stores wouldn't do that; only American brand dealers are incompetent and don't do their job. Grin...

    I really have to point out I'm glad you said those things, because those are what all customers need to be alert for sothey're not put off by the dealer: "They all do that." " You'll have to ajust to it then it will be okay."

    I am having fun at your expense but I actually am overstating (everybody knew that already, didn't they?)

    Remember, I said all car brands have some problems at times. So you told the poster what he should hear.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    1487 himself says that 700K CamCord buyers each year will buy those models again just because they know little about cars and it is what they are "supposed" to buy. Just as one example. Is there something GM can do to counteract this process?

    Nippon,

    It's going to take a lot of time, great marketing, lots of money, to get Honyota buyers back. One way to make sure you get them back is to crack down on bad GM dealerships and threaten to suspend their license. ;)

    I've always felt customer service is the #1 most important factor in buying a car. Having a clean dealership with fresh coffee, refreshments, soda's, juice, water, etc, can add to the buying experience. I also think having comfortable waiting area's is very important for new customers and people waiting for service on their vehical.

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Let me know when the good marketing finally takes hold. People are very suspicious of the blending of patriotism with consumerism in coastal areas...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    gmrules1,

    I'm not advocating for them to go live in Japan, but do support a level playing field for GM to play on. I've discussed what needs to be done in my 2-1/2 years on edmunds and it's up to us to support politicians with similar views. If not you can kiss domestic manufacturing good bye in this country. :sick:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    fintail,

    So you don't think it's patriotic in any way to buy an american car ? Example: What if you like the Saturn Aura and the Nissan Maxima the exact same. However you decide to buy the Aura over the Maxima because it's it a american product. Is their something wrong with that ? Is buying something american if you like it alot bad ? I think even if you like the foreign product more but stop and think that the American product will work just fine also and it will support your fellow countrymen and a american company isn't a bad thing also.

    I suppose you and I see things different in that perspective.

    It would be like a german citizen buying a Mercedes clone made by the chinese and bragging to a german autoworker my car is better than his because it's not only 75% cheaper but also is made buy hard working chinese and not some lazy german. The German autoworker would be offended wouldn't he ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Wow, I think we found somebody that's more "over the top" than me ???? :D

    Hey, my heart agrees......but I do think americans do deserve to have a choice don't they ?
    I however would assume you would agree with me that 3rd world products made by country's that lack human rights should be banned aka China ?

    I love your patriotism, I really do because your heart is in the right place but the domestic's like GM, can compete and win if they were given some of the advantages that the foreigners enjoy. They will over come the odds and stay #1 ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    He probably has read a few of the posts on this and other forums and is "venting" with disbelief at some of the garbage said by the anti-domestic/ anti-GM posters in these forums. ;)

    Rocky
  • gmrules1gmrules1 Member Posts: 11
    I have been glancing over the responses and I for one am excited about this new Astra. I think it is going to ba a top seller in its class. Much nicer than that dorky Civic or Mazda whatever its called.

    This is just another block in the wall that is going to separate the real car enthusiasts and the posuers from importland. People are going to flock to the Saturn dealers to get their hands on one of these. I predict serious declines in sales of the competition. ;)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I believe the Japanese worker would feel the same if you said you were going to buy a Hyun-Kia product built by the industrious Korean worker over the fat, overpaid Japanese one.

    I think anybody would be furious if they were called fat, lazy, and overpaid and that you'd rather buy the competition's product because their workers are so much better. It doesn't matter if you're an autoworker, professional, or fast-food cook.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think it is patriotic to buy the car you prefer, no matter where it comes from. That's what the free world is all about. I don't want "fine", I want what I like the most. I don't want "fine", I want the best in my eyes. "Good enough" has been good enough for the domestics for eons...that's why we have today's market and their market shares. I'm not exactly supporting slave labor with my choice, so I have no regrets.

    Just don't guilt trip people into buying a supposed domestic (might be built in Canada or Mexico, or have a clunky Chinese engine) with flags and eagles. It insults my intelligence.

    Lots of these "American" cars don't employ American workers anyway. I'd rather support workers than execs.

    BTW, I don't see a Maxima and Aura as being direct competitors. The Max is more upmarket (but strangely enough, no better looking than a Saturn...you don't get to say that very often)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...actually beat out the fabled Camry in a recent comparo. There just might be some hope for Saturn yet! Heck, maybe Saturn can go upscale and have an Avalon-beater!
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Rocky -- time to chill, have a beer! New "gmrules1" guy -- please check out Edmunds' "Rules of the Road" -- on your left.

    And Rocky, you did own an Acura TL once, right? Built right here in Ohio?

    Imidazol -- Look, anyone can say anything they want here in these forums, and we have the advantage of being completely anonymous. Scape2, rocky, 1487, nippononly, you, and I are all in the same boat, as well as this new guy gmrules1. I read these forums for entertainment and shooting the bull, so to speak (sometimes literally). I don't expect to learn anything authoritative. For that, I check out Edmunds/Inside Line itself, or a conservative "voice of the auto industry" publication like Automotive News, founded in Detroit in 1925. Here's a peek here (you have to pay for a full subscription).

    The buff mags are rapidly putting themselves out of business by becoming increasingly irrelevant in the Internet Age. As I joked to Rocky a while back, they're more suitable for lining kitty's litter pan.

    With regard to the domestic auto industry, I'd very much like to see it succeed, because as someone said, "competition improves the breed." The more competition in auto choices we have, the better ALL cars will be.

    Detroit became fat and lazy in the past because there was too little competition, once Studebaker, Hudson, Kaiser, et al folded. Oh, we could buy those "foreign cars" from Europe, but most were too small, weird, or expensive for American tastes. It wasn't until the Asian cars began their "invasion" in earnest after Detroit was caught with its pants down after the first oil shock that the imports really took off. Toyota passed VW as the largest importer in 1975 and never looked back.

    I remember Lee Iacocca bleating over and over again in the early 80s about "leveling the playing field" by demanding that the Asians build their products here. Well, be careful of what you wish for!

    Now it looks like GM, Ford, and Chrysler are in about as much trouble as were Studebaker and the other hapless "independents" in the 50s. Hopefully, the situation can be turned around.

    Since the 70s, a lot of people were "converted" to the imports, and many won't be coming back. Worse for the domestics, the children of the converts heard lots of stories about the "bad old days," so they in turn don't want domestic products either.

    Don't take my word for it -- look what an older guy (early 60s) from Philadelphia (lemko's stomping grounds!) says in his blog. This is Joe Sherlock, who writes "A View through the Windshield." His dad worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad, once one of America's mightiest corporations, now gone. Joe is a consummate car guy and grew up loving domestic cars. He even has a classic (though modded) '39 Plymouth. Read his take on where Detroit went wrong here. And his update here.

    I personally won't believe GM has turned the corner until 3 things happen:

    1. The Delphi bankruptcy mess is sorted out, and GM's obligations are set.

    2. The 2007 UAW contract is negotiated.

    3. The company starts making money.

    As for Ford, the situation looks very grim -- if someone asked me to place a bet, I'd say they won't make it. Chrysler also looks questionable, especially if parent Mercedes spins it off. GM does seem to be in the best shape of the former "Big 3," now really the Detroit 2.5.
  • gmrules1gmrules1 Member Posts: 11
    If you own one like I do, (two of them actually) then you will realize that the warranty is kindof a waste of time. GM qality is top notch and their drivetrains are bulletproof. They don't break much.

    But hey the warranty is free, even if you never need it.

    Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, now those cars could do with a long waranty. Wonder why they don't? Because the repair bills would put them out of business... I wish. :blush:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well you do have a point with BMW and Mercedes and with Toyota's quality going in the toilet they would be affected also. Honda, hasn't had any major concerns lately.

    Rocky
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    Come on, fintail. Sing it with me --

    "This is ooouuuuurrrrr countreeeeee."
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    210delray,

    A beer and a Macanudo Robust sounds real good right now.

    -good suggestion ;)

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >I don't see a Maxima and Aura as being

    The Maxima seems to have a good philosophy about what characteristics a car should have for a fast mover. But I don't like that taillight setup nor do I like the Altima.

    They both look like Minima when I see that strange, wrapped over taillight.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >like Automotive News, founded in Detroit in 1925. Here's a peek here (you have to pay for a full subscription).

    Thanks but I was reading Automotive News while you were still in diapers most likely. But thanks for the tip. ;)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Yeah, this can be funny depending on how you look at it...

    BTW, you got the century wrong -- it's 1487 not 1847.

    I noticed because I tend to do that with numbers myself. ;)

    Now, you guys will have to excuse me because I'm off to Wal-Mart to buy some of China's finest! :P
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    You read Auto News when you were 10? Kinda doubt it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    210delray,

    What are you buying ? Will it be a Brickland, Chery, Geely this evening ?

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    This has been a real wrapup; lots of laughs.

    If I didn't have to go to court tomorrow morning I'd have some wine since there's no beer in this house.

    They aren't selling Toyotas and Hondas at Walmart, are they?

    It's been a weird evening. I have to explain to the girl in ?? Pakistan ?? on HP's technical helpline how to what I wanted to keep from opening in my system tray after she got me to the right point--she didn't have it figured out and kept telling me wrong. She still didn't understand I'd fixed my own problem, with her help. Usually they tell me something wrong--like I can't connect to my old 98 computer's printer from my regular XP on the home network (did it myself after 5 months when I found it on HP's website).

    Now this discussion, tense earlier, is comedy club central and Rockylee has been fortified with a new member posting.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Just some of China's finest diapers for my cats! I don't have any more Motor Bend left to line the litter pan! :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Try the mid seventies.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    Lots of these "American" cars don't employ American workers anyway. I'd rather support workers than execs.

    Thats a load of crap.

    GM has 100,000+ active American workers, and supports 500,000+ American retired workers.

    Toyota has about 40,000 American workers.

    Toyota could close every plant in America, and the economy would barley blink. If GM went bankrupt the impact on the economy would be disastrous. It would be felt all the way to California. How many billions would it cost the Federal Government to fund a bankrupt GM pension plan?
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Not that far behind you then; it was 1979 for me, when I started my current job.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL....You need to teach your cats to use the toilet like Mr. Jinks ;) My cat luckily goes outdoors to take care of her business.

    Rocky
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Yeah, I understand that's possible to do.

    BTW -- don't trust anything about that Bricklin character! He's a snake! You've probably read that he and Chery have "divorced." Chery obviously wised up!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Brikland is a snake and yes it was a ugly divorce from what I read. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    And if you buy a car made at a foreign GM plant...you do nothing but support the idiotic contractual obligations signed by overpaid execs.

    It's not my obligation to buy cars to support the bad business decisions of others.

    Load of crap, indeed.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    gmrules1: If you own one like I do, (two of them actually) then you will realize that the warranty is kindof a waste of time. GM qality is top notch and their drivetrains are bulletproof. They don't break much.

    You need to tell that to the people stuck with those GM V-6s featuring the crappy intake manifold gasket.

    They could use a laugh...

    Just among my friends and family : one owner caught the problem in time (2000 Impala - the dealer was going to make her pay until I found the TSB and she took it to the dealer); one owner suffered a ruined the engine (my parents' 1999 Park Avenue); and one is developing the problem (mother-in-law's relatively low-mileage 1999 Malibu).
  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    So you would rather support Toyota's retired workers back in Japan rather than support American retired workers. Toyota makes $10 billion a year, and has a hand full of plants in America. All that money goes straight back to Japan.

    So its bad business to offer your workers any kind of post retirement health care or pensions. If thats the case then lets ban all handouts. Starting with Social Security, Unemployment benefits, Medicade, and Medicare. It shouldn't be my tax obligation to support bad promises our federal government has made.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    How much money would go to Japan vs how much would go to workers and the tax base at domestic/transplant plants?

    How much does Toyota "support" Japanese retirees?

    It's bad business to make large promises and then mismanage your product to the point of irrelevance.

    I am not against a general strike by American taxpayers in reaction to recent governmental activities...
  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    About 200,000 of GM's retired workers are non union salaried. It's not all contractual obligations.
  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    GM's pension problems are just like the federal governments problems with social security & Medicade.

    Back in 1979 GM had no idea Health Plus was going to cost $13,000 per worker in 2007, and going up 15% per year.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah health insurance for company's like GM, is getting mighty expensive. I still believe like brightness, the best way to solve this crisis from a company standpoint is to negotiate a higher per hour wage with the UAW, to cover health insurance and retirement benefits with the new workers next contract and then GM, can down-size it's white-collar workforce even more that over see these benefits plans.

    Rocky
  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    GM doesn't have a problem with the pension fund. It's the health care on retired workers that's killing them. The UAW gave a billion in concessions last year, and that barley covered prescription drug inflation.

    It's easy to screw over active workers, but retirees are another ball game. There's only so much GM and the UAW can negotiate away on currently retired workers. It's a sticky legal situation when you try to take benefits away from a retired worker. It always gets contested in court, and retiree's have won their fare share of those suits.

    Any concessions from active UAW members are trivial when compared to the burden of 500,000 already untouchable retired workers.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that a corporation's past promises of retirement benefits to its employees can come back and sink the whole company 20 years later or more? Has this happened to any other big companies? And if it is possible, why doesn't GM seek bankruptcy protection? Wouldn't the courts have to see that the times have changed more than could possibly have been foreseen all those years ago?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    They won concessions from the retirees last year. I do think their might be some more room for negotiations. However those people are on a fixed income and getting raises in pensions come very slow. I'm not going to try to start a political debate but if I was CEO of GM, Ford, Chrysler, I'd grab somebody like ol' John Edwards, stuff his campaign for president in 08' full of cash to make sure he wins and get that universal health care passed. Big Oil, did just that with president Bush, and they all made record profits. ;) That would be the cheapest way for all three of them to bail out of their healthcare for retirees obligations. I guess they should just hire me as a consultant. :P

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    :blush: >suffered a ruined the engine (my parents' 1999 Park Avenue);

    They must not have checked the oil and fluids weekly or even monthly. Leaks start slow and they weren't quick failures in almost all cases. The coolant dropping a cup over a couple weeks in the overflow and then continuing to drop slowly is a big hint to have it checked. It's also changing the DexCool once every two years and maintaining a full radiator (requires checking in case problems start). DexCool doesn't like air and doesn't last 100,000. DexCool allegedly damaged seals around intake parts; but that may be only if not properly maintained.

    GM should have replaced problems outside of warranty. But then they should have done a secret warranty replacement too as some companies have done things.

    Of course the reliability of the 3800s is so great most people get used to the check things once or twice a year routine.

    The intake is a relatively cheap repair and once it's done it's over. It's not replacing the whole engine because of hidden sludging. It's not transmissions that fail by design at 30, 60, 90, up to an extended honda warranty to 100K but then at 100K you're on your own, by design, so as to speak (little pun on design problems there). It's not tranmissions that don't shift right and hesitate or flare and being told the driver has to wait for their toyota product to adjust to them... (never).

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    imidazol97,

    Whatever you do pal don't put the evil red color stuff in your cars. That stuff is a car owners curse. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnF0-J5V7qk

    This should please the Tin-yota crowd ;)

    Rocky
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,338
    Although extending the warranty is a nice idea, and it would help me (far from a domestic lover) to consider one, they are being a bit disengenous touting the big 100,000 mile warranty deal, since it is only for 5 years.

    We drive the family (trip car, currently a minivan) a fairly normal 12k/ year. That is only 60K in 5 years. On any car, I wouldn't expect component failure by then. Even if you drive 15k/year, still only 75K

    Now, if this was 7 year, 100K, you might get more use out of it!

    Plus, I seem to be able unable to keep the family truckster more than 6 years, but would do 7 if it was still under warranty (and still reliable) since their wouldn't be any major $$ exposure. Dumping at 5 years/60K is certainly doable (don't tell the wife though), but is really a bit sooner than I would like to do it.

    Be honest, if they touted a great new 5 year powertrain warranty (which Toyota, Honda, Nissan already have) without mentioning the miles (I think the other 3 are all to 60K), would anyone really be getting that excited?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    80% of new car buyers sell their vehicle within 5 years of purchasing/leasing. So GM hits most new car buyers.

    Very few drive only 12,000 miles per year (but I am one). Also many, many drive 20,000 a year. That is 100,000 in 5 years so GM has a very significant advantage in the warranty. Perhaps not for you but at least for 80% of new car buyers.

    Be honest, if they touted a great new 5 year powertrain warranty (which Toyota, Honda, Nissan already have) without mentioning the miles (I think the other 3 are all to 60K), would anyone really be getting that excited?

    No, but they DO offer 100,000 miles while the others do not so they do have something to get excited about.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Well the CTS has been shown and we have yet another example of a half hearted domestic effort with a 4 speed auto and pushrod engine. You, know these guys are right, all domestic cars are crap. I have seen the light. When will GM ever learn?
This discussion has been closed.