So is Rick throwing in the towel here in the U.S.???
Amazing how you get that from the comment :P
Maybe I and the analysts are wrong but GM is growing significantly outside the US in sales. If you mean is he giving up the #1 spot here in the US? Well 3 years ago GM would have cranked up the plants, throw on another $3000 in incentives and keep the top spot here. Instead they are closing plants to get capacity equal with demand. Had to get concessions from the union to do it. Transactions are up $2k a vehicle. Residuals are up. i.e the 2005 Cobalt had an ALG residual of 30% and today the 2007 is at 44% compared to the 47% on a Civic. Not bad work for 2 years and the same vehicle.
New products comprise about 40 percent of GM's offerings in 2007, up from 30 percent in 2006. New cars and hybrids could boost GM's image with U.S. consumers, writes Mark Oline of Fitch. Among U.S. manufacturers, GM will be "the best-positioned . . . from a new-product standpoint," he says. The company will offer new pickup trucks, cross-utility vehicles and an almost entirely revised Saturn lineup. Five of the new autos will be capable of running on an ethanol-blend fuel, giving GM a total of 14 such vehicles. Higher margins on full-size pickups and cross-utility vehicles should "drive profit and cash-flow improvements," says Scott Merlis of Thomas Weisel Partners. New models also better position the company to increase its market share in China, the world's fastest-growing car market, notes Paul Raman, of Zacks Equity Research.
Some analysts think GM's fourth-quarter earnings could surprise Wall Street. GM reported Wednesday that the average price per new car sales and leases rose by 7 percent in the fourth quarter. That provides "a significant boost to revenues," says Credit Suisse analyst Christopher Ceraso, who equates it to an increase of roughly $1,800 per vehicle, or $2 billion in incremental earnings over a year ago. That growth makes it more likely fourth-quarter earnings will "surprise to the upside," he writes. In December, Robert Barry of Goldman Sachs, said he was "feeling better" about GM's fourth quarter because of improvements in cost savings. Stabilizing gas prices in November led consumers back toward profitable SUVs and light trucks, says David Silver of Wall Street Strategies. November light-truck sales rose 16.6 percent, and Cadillac Escalade SUV sales almost doubled, he notes.
Lots of work to do but things are better now than at the start of the 2006 year.
I'm just saying that growth in China and India appear to be more a priority than saving there US operations. And with more an more product coming out of the Opel stable, along with plant closings which you have stated above, it just appears that operations are being relocated, that's all.
With Toyota breathing down their necks in worldwide sales, I can see why GM would want to continue to grow in areas where they are succeeding and selling more models while conceeding to areas like the US where GM's reputation may not be all that positive...
The car magazines that have tested the CTS_V seem to think otherwise. But I will agree with you that for street use, the CTS_V is of dubious value, as are other cars like it. The V12 Mercedes SL is a good example of excess.
GM was bound to lose share due to decreases in incentives and cutting rental sales. The bottom line is that they are earning more per vehicle and that is what they want. Toyota's marketshare increases will slow soon enough for various reasons. The main reason is that the competition from GM, Honda and Nissan will only increase. People act like the market is a two way gaem between GM and Toyota since they are the top two but that's not the case. Toyota is gaining conquests from all of the Big 3 plus Nissan and others. Nissan and GM have launched or will launch some major volume vehicles in 2006/07 and at some point that will improve their marketshare. The other thing is the better Toyota does, the harder it will be for them to continue to post 10% year over year increases, especially without new product. Other than the Tundra Toyota doesnt have any major launches for 2007 and 2006 was a year full of launches and brand new products, mainly the Camry, FJ Cruiser and Rav4.
I live in Philly and I have seen about 10 Auras so far, three of which were XR models. while I understand that domestics arent seen on the west coast, that isnt representative of the rest of the country. While people love to point out that the BIg 3 arent big sellers out there they never point out that most of the marketshare gains posted by Toyota and Honda can be traced to that region. If we removed California from the market imagine how low Toyota and Honda's marketshare would be.
Yeah, of course if we removed California from the auto market, we would have seen a number of automaker bankruptcies or retreats from the U.S. market by now too! :-)
Toyota will also launch the redesigned Highlander this spring, and two new Scions (small volume there). But I agree this will probably be a year of smaller growth at Toyota.
Honda will redesign the Accord to introduce in the fall, which I think will give them a BIGGER boost this year than in 2006. Plus it will be the first full year of sales of the new CRV, which has been very popular.
I notice you don't mention Ford in your comments. I think this could be another year when the Chevy brand beats out the Ford brand for highest annual sales. F-150 and Explorer sales have fallen dramatically this last year, and of course GM doesn't depend as heavily on Silverado and Trailblazer sales for its success as Ford depends on its two sales leaders.
I do think it will be a much worse year for DCX and Ford than it will be for GM, which bit the bullet and did a lot of the painful surgery last year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Down from the previous few years. You can quote fleet percentages all day but that doesnt mean they havent reduced them from last year. It's also a good idea to post your source when stating fleet percentages like that. I dont see how 75% of Grand Prixs are fleets when I see tons of midlevel models on the road. I also read that nearly a third of Impala sales were SS models so I question how 55% of total impala sales would be going fleet. According to GM's end of year figures about 75% of their sales were retail.
This is the first I have heard of a new Highlander for next year but you may be right. Maybe there isnt much buzz about it at this point. Either way Toyota isnt going to have nearly as much new product next year.
Ford is in trouble for the next few years, GM is in much better shape product wise. If the Fusion and Edge are successful I do think Ford might be able to stabilize it's share this year. Ford is also launching an updated 500 and Freestyle which MAY help them. I think comparing GM's 2007 sales with their 2006 sales is going to be more valid than '06 vs '05 when the incentives were being piled on.
DCX isnt in good shape at all in terms of product. The 300 is aging and I doubt the Sebring will be a big seller. The new vans will help, but they arent coming out until fall. DCX is way too truck heavy and they are still using tons of incentives.
That table sayd MY 06 midyear. The 2006 model year started in fall of 2005 so I assume that table is from 1st QTR 2006. That is hardly a good barometer for what GM's current fleet sales are. Can you imagine how many MY06 cars were being dumped into fleet sales when GM was incentive crazy? The list is obviosuly old because many cars that aren't even for sale are listed on there. The Grand Am has been out of production since 2004 and yet it's on that list.
The thing that table shows is that Hyundai/Kia is utilizing fleet sales big time to boost its numbers.
GM is not planning on growing the business here in the states. I am sure they would like to but with all the disadvantages that they have here I do not see that happening for awhile. If they could hold 25% they would be very happy (that is with profitable sales)
Plants being closed because many were running below capacity but were kept running to keep because there was no reason to close them. They would have had to pay the workforce even if closed. Those above demand vehicles were sent to the rental companies.
GM imports very few vehicles from outside of NA. As far as Opel, GM is doing the same thing taht Toyota/Honda has done by going to world vehicles. There will be sharing of platforms across the world and that should be more efficient and profitable. Those vehicles are still being developed by the US and will be primarily be built here.
I do think it will be a much worse year for DCX and Ford than it will be for GM, which bit the bullet and did a lot of the painful surgery last year.
They started biting the bullets 3 years ago. Just got the huge union concessions last year. The salaried have been losing benefits and no pay increases for about 3 years and the buy outs started back then. Also started improving the product (hired Lutz) 4 years ago and quality started to really improve 4 years ago (Century and Impala bested Camry / Accord in quality then)
According to GM's end of year figures about 75% of their sales were retail.
Is that for the U.S. or world-wide? Do you really believe that?
Yes, because if was not true the press would be all over them and they could get in big trouble. How? because comments like that can get people to make stock buying/selling decisions and as you know companies are scared as heck now to not get in trouble with the government. Look at Enron.
Not looking to argue, but just curious...how do you know those GPs are current model year private sales and not just last year's rentals sold to private buyers at a massive discount?
Same goes for something like a plastic wheelcover Camry LE etc...I see them, and I think 'rental' or 'old rental'.
In my area, I could easily say that 75% of GPS and 50% of Impalas are not private sales.
The market cap of General Motors is just over $17 Billion, the market cap of Honda is just over $141 Billion. New models, cost cutting, better contracts, etc- just remember that GM is not out of the woods yet by any means. This is still a company that needs to design and execute a lot better and stop making products that don't sell very well. Their competition (especially the Asians) will not let up. Still lots of issues for them
"If they could hold 25% they would be very happy (that is with profitable sales)"
If GM follows through with their commitment to really cut fleet sales (and I am fully prepared to believe some of those fleet numbers, like those for the Grand Prix, a model which SCREAMS fleet fave), I see their market share stabilizing at no more than 20%. By the time they get through their restructuring, I think the Chinese will be here, and they will probably grab some market share too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Most likely because the west coast had so little invested (20 years ago) in the domestic auto industry while the entire midwest and parts of the east coast have many assembly plants and parts producting plants and folks there saw what could happen to our economy. They bought American to protect their lifestyle.
Now that has changed. While many japanese vehicles are still imported there are some plants here and folks views are changing on what helps America.
It could also be type of vehicle. Larger cars and trucks fit well in the midwest with all that open land. While the smaller vehicles (made better by the imports 20 years ago) fit better in the heavily congested streets of California.
what are you talking about? The new corolla has been delayed until 2008 after they saw how good the civic was. the RX was new for 2004 so it's not being redesigned for 2008. The LS600h is an extremely low volume product, you should know that and thus I dont know why you listed it. Same goes fro the IS-F. Get real, I am talking about VOLUME launches that will boost the sales #'s significantly.
recalls for '06 plummeted. Also Ford and DCX had more recalls than GM. Toyota had half of GM. BUT this is based on vehicles recalled. So if you sell a lot of vehicles on the same platform you can get hit hard by one recall.
In fact Toyota had more recalls in '05 than GM had in '06.
Just another quantitative fact on how quality has improved at GM. m Interesting tidbit is that the article says the GM's (and Acura's) OnStar were helpiing cut warranty and recall cost.
One interesting point is that after the recall laws changed recalls spiked (almost doubled) in '04 but have dropped below the trend line for '06.
GM had 20 recalls for '06 and only 2 involved more than 100k cars.
Dont know that exactly. I guess that west coast people consider themselves to savvy and stylish to be driving anything domestic unless its a Caddy, SUV or Vette. Its obvious that driving an import out there can be damaging to your rep and thus west coasters arent willing to drive something American. I notice that native of the west coast like to preach about how it has nothing to do with image or personal preferences, its simply that everything foreign is great and the Big 3 dont make anything worth buying. I don't buy that argument. The other part is there are far more luxury import brands than luxury domestic brands and in fashion conscious areas where people tend to buy more expensive vehicles it's only natural that foreign nameplates will be far more popular on the road.
Its obvious you are some type of anti-GM fantasy land where they can lie in press releases and financial statements. If you dont believe thier official sales numbers than you might as well disregard the press releases from any automaker, or any company period. Read it for yourself and do the math to determine the total number of fleet saes. Hummer, Saturn, Saab and Cadillac barely have any fleet sales. That leaves Buick, Pontiac and Chevy and even Buick has cut its sales since the Lucerne came out because the Lesabre was a fleet king. Chevy and Pontiac make up the bulk of GM's fleet sales but those sales are mostly cars. You dont see a lot of Tahoes, Avalanches or Silverados at your local Enterprise. It's completely realistic to think that 3 million out of GM's 4 miliion sales were not fleet. You dont seem to get that GM was padding its sales numbers in years past with fleet sales to keep factories running and maintain share. They have backed off of that recently and that is a big contributor to their sales declines for 2006. IF they went back to the old way I assure you their sales and market share wouldnt have been down in 2006, just like it wasnt in 2005 when they had incentives galore.
As for the Grand Prix, many of the models I see are the GT model with the 260hp engine which tells me those cars are not rentals. If I see a base model with wheel covers than I tend to think it may be a rental. In CA perhaps 90% of GPs are from the airport, but that's not the case where I live. Same goes for the Impala, most Impalas I see are the LT3 or LTZ models with the 17" wheels. I doubt most rentals are anything but the base LT model.
It's not just in cars, the West Coast and East Coast always seemed more amenable to imports, and that covers things like wine, foodstuffs, foreign food restaurants clothing, etc- and this has been the case for decades. Maybe it's because the ports of entry have traditionally been on the coasts dating from steamship days. Another thing is that the West Coast and East Coast cities have large concentrations of recent immigrants (legal and illegal, haha!) and many of those people are comfortable with the vehicles from their homelands (Asian vehicles predominate, not that many from the Big 3) or want simple, economical cars like the Corolla/Civic. But snobbery and fashion are factors too.
I am sorry but you may have been mis-informed, the new Corolla will being launched late this year as a 2008 model. You could be right about the RX but it is definitely being either late this year as the 08' or early next year as the 09'. Don't forget the RX and Highlander share platform so if we see one that usually means the other is right around the corner.
Look at the list again, the only volume seller I see in 06' is the Camry, count the Yaris if you want. However in 07', Corolla, Tundra and Highlander are all volume sellers. If the RX is being launched as well, then that's another one for you. Now I think there is a possibility that Toyota will push Highlander and RX's launch back to 08' since they'll need some new volume sellers by then. Here's another list for your for new Toyota in the 08'-09' time frame:
Toyota Sequoia Toyota 4Runner Toyota Land Cruiser Toyota Sienna Lexus RX (might be in 07') Lexus GX Lexus LX
Looks like for the next couple years, Toyota launches will be either truck-heavy or crossover-heavy.
I grew up in California and the reason I don't like American cars is because they are crap, and devoid of any imagination IMO. It has nothing to do with "rep" for me.
My brother lives in Michigan. When I was helping him shop for cars for him and his wife, he said if you don't drive American around here, people won't do business with you.
That's why I hate the midwest [among other reasons] You have to worry about what you drive. Otherwise some fat bloated union worker will get offended that your not keeping his fat, lazy, [non-permissible content removed] in a job, and egg your car. [happened to me when I lived there]
I'm considering a Pontiac g6 with either the 3.5 or the 3.6, a Chevrolet Impala with the 3.9, a Saturn Aura with the 3.5 or 3.6, or the Pontiac Grand Prix with the naturally aspirated 3.8. Right now I'm leaning towards either the Impala or G6, although I'm still strongly considering the other models. Which models would you recommend and why?
large topic.. Quality/durability is still behind..How many friends do you have who have an Accord or Camary with over 200k miles with no real issues.... Market share in NA will continue to hang around, no one is going to Own the day.
Profit- ? Still too many plants, still have leagacy cost issues, have unhappy emploees and suppliers ...Sounds like a solid base for real growth..NO
GM's purchase of certain assets from bankrupt Daewoo really was a masterful move in hindsight. The two GM-Daewoo factories in S. Korea are producing product for China and Asia. GM-Daewoo just passed Kia for #2 auto maker by sales volume in S. Korea. China is building a highway system that will make our 42,000 mile Interstate system look small. Asia is the future and GM is set to reap the rewards. As to No. America, GM will always be a USA-based company but international markets are where the company will invest and grow.
dhamilton: My brother lives in Michigan. When I was helping him shop for cars for him and his wife, he said if you don't drive American around here, people won't do business with you.
That's why I hate the midwest [among other reasons] You have to worry about what you drive. Otherwise some fat bloated union worker will get offended that your not keeping his fat, lazy, [non-permissible content removed] in a job, and egg your car. [happened to me when I lived there]
I was being sarcastic because of all the rude things he was saying about michiganders and I'm calling B.S. on it because I did lived in michigan not to far where he claims to live and plenty of people drive imports in his neck of the woods and aren't hassled like he claims.... :confuse:
very strong themes of "patriotism", "loyalty", and "love of America" that seem to run through every GM thread as soon as you get the GM fans talking. Yet the Ford fans never do that, neither do the DCX fans (FWIW! :-P). Why is that?
All the other car companies in the world figured out a long time ago that in order to survive globalization (which, by the way, is all done - we are globalized...love it or hate it, but you can't change the reality) they would have to expand and diversify out across the globe. The domestics were very tardy in coming to this realization, but that's not the fault of folks who don't like American cars.
Better late than never, GM is the American company that is now globalizing the most (the folks at Ford talk about it a whole lot, but actually DO precious little), with DCX close on their heels. That's a smart move. We are almost, ALMOST at the point where the car you buy has no nationality any more: designed in one country, built in another, with the profits going to yet a third. I realize people would love to debate the "what does American MEAN?" topic to death, so I will put that aside, but if I may presume to sum up the flag-wavers' position, it is that buying GM is good for keeping people in the U.S. employed.
But look around you - the reality is that the unions are losing their grip in the face of a new economic reality, more and more GM models have been and will be designed and built somewhere outside our borders, and these reasons you cite for buying GM may be more and more misguided every year that goes by.
edit...footnote: 1487 said above that 20 years ago imports did a much better job of building small cars. My contention is that they still do. And this may be part of the big divide here: the Midwesterners and the Texans love their huge trucks and large cars. GM and Ford are really good at MAKING huge trucks and large cars. They cater well to some markets, but maybe they cater poorly to the REST of the U.S. - the coasts. If so, that will always limit their sales in this country, unless they change their way of thinking.
And by the way, when I say small cars, I am thinking subcompacts and compacts by the EPA definition. Heck, DCX's smalest model is considered midsize by that definition (the Caliber), so they don't even SELL a small car here any more. GM is the only one of the three even selling two or more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So you are saying that not buying domestic is considered not loving America?
Did I get that right? Just for the record.
Well for the record I will say this. If you try to buy american made goods as often as possible then you love america more so than somebody that doesn't give a rat where it's made as long as they save a buck or get the "wow factor" they wanted.
Okay, so I do not love America since I only buy imports is that what you were saying?
Wow, this is definitely a first, someone is trying to tell me that either "I" love the country or not by what I buy and what I drive.
BTW, Rocky, are you really here to lobby for GM or trying to hurt GM's image? If all GM supporters/owners are like you then I definitely do not want to be one of them. Also, if that's the case why would anybody outside US buy GM, Ford and Chrysler?
very strong themes of "patriotism", "loyalty", and "love of America" that seem to run through every GM thread as soon as you get the GM fans talking. Yet the Ford fans never do that, neither do the DCX fans (FWIW! ). Why is that?
Perhaps on this forum but you will find plenty of the same patriotism on other blogs where chryslers's and ford's are the topic of discussion. Chrysler's patriotism has been damaged because the germans baught them. Ford, flat out doesn't have a lot to brag about.
All the other car companies in the world figured out a long time ago that in order to survive globalization (which, by the way, is all done - we are globalized...love it or hate it, but you can't change the reality) they would have to expand and diversify out across the globe. The domestics were very tardy in coming to this realization, but that's not the fault of folks who don't like American cars.
Globalization might be a reality for ONLY 2 more years if I get my way.
Better late than never, GM is the American company that is now globalizing the most (the folks at Ford talk about it a whole lot, but actually DO precious little), with DCX close on their heels. That's a smart move. We are almost, ALMOST at the point where the car you buy has no nationality any more: designed in one country, built in another, with the profits going to yet a third. I realize people would love to debate the "what does American MEAN?" topic to death, so I will put that aside, but if I may presume to sum up the flag-wavers' position, it is that buying GM is good for keeping people in the U.S. employed.
So going global and sending billions of dollars to mad men acround the globe is great for america ? I suppose until the next war starts because we funded the building up of foreign military's because we consumers wanted to save a buck. Then those same consumers will have the "hair" to complain about how much money we spent on the next war and thus taxes will have to be increased to pay for it. So in the end you'd been better off buying the domestic product because at the endd of the day it would of saved you a few bucks, few lives, and a few jobs. I however know the majority of you don't buy my opinion
But look around you - the reality is that the unions are losing their grip in the face of a new economic reality, more and more GM models have been and will be designed and built somewhere outside our borders, and these reasons you cite for buying GM may be more and more misguided every year that goes by.
Perhaps, but some of us aren't going to wave the white flag just yet. I think 2008' is the make or break year for the domestics. It will decide if they get to stay or have to further expand globally. If the wrong person sits in the White House, in 08' the big 2.5 are doomed. :sick:
BTW, Rocky, are you really here to lobby for GM or trying to hurt GM's image? If all GM supporters/owners are like you then I definitely do not want to be one of them.
You would never drive or buy one anyways because it wouldn't protray a faux status.
Also, if that's the case why would anybody outside US buy GM, Ford and Chrysler?
They don't as you and your import only loving friends say.......So why does that matter ????
You would never drive or buy one anyways because it wouldn't protray a faux status.
Thanks, Rocky, to have such confidence in me. Was having my eyes set on the Corvette Z06 for my weekend fun car but I guess not anymore. Porsche here I come...
BTW, if people ever ask me in the future why I wouldn't buy GM products my answer will begin like this: This guy at Edmunds forum once told me...
Also, since this is a public forum, I am not the only one that's reading your post you know?
I don't think you totally understand the term globalization. It is an economic term, and has nothing to with "sending billions of dollars to madmen around the globe". Our biggest global partner, as you may know, is China, and I think we both know how heavily invested GM is there, and just how much their beancounters are BEGGING the execs to start selling Chinese-built cars with GM brand names in the U.S. ;-)
Now that DCX has cleared the way with their first Chery deal for Dodges to be sold in the U.S., you can bet GM won't be far behind, although in that case it will probably be Chinese workers in a Chinese GM factory building the cars, rather than a licensing agreement like DCX.
And in case you haven't noticed, we haven't been fighting any wars in China, nor do I think we probably will in my lifetime.
And as for "Globalization might be a reality for ONLY 2 more years if I get my way." I will just say that if you are being sincere, then I can sincerely assure you that you will NOT be getting your way. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thanks, Rocky, to have such confidence in me. Was having my eyes set on the Corvette Z06 for my weekend fun car but I guess not anymore. Porsche here I come...
louiswei,
I'm suppose to believe you were going use a Z06 for a weekend fun car after you have trashed every GM or Ford car made ever since I've met you. Dude lets get real !!! :confuse:
BTW, if people ever ask me in the future why I wouldn't buy GM products my answer will begin like this: This guy at Edmunds forum once told me...
Based on observation of your forum posts you leave me with no other position or conclusion. you have openly admitted you don't think domestics are worthy cars. I honestly can't recall a time when you've said a nice thing about a GM product.
Also, since this is a public forum, I am not the only one that's reading your post you know?
I don't care because what I'm saying is true. You have a strong dislike like mediapusher for domestic cars. Just admit it. I suppose their is nothing wrong with that because many americans feel the same way. Go drive you a Porsche, I could care less if you rent one or not. Have a good time if that's what you want to do. If you want to rent a Vette, you can come back and tell us how horrible of an experience it was on monday. :confuse:
I don't think you totally understand the term globalization. It is an economic term, and has nothing to with "sending billions of dollars to madmen around the globe". Our biggest global partner, as you may know, is China, and I think we both know how heavily invested GM is there, and just how much their beancounters are BEGGING the execs to start selling Chinese-built cars with GM brand names in the U.S.
Yes it makes good business sense when your own government is driving you out of your homeland.
Now that DCX has cleared the way with their first Chery deal for Dodges to be sold in the U.S., you can bet GM won't be far behind, although in that case it will probably be Chinese workers in a Chinese GM factory building the cars, rather than a licensing agreement like DCX.
That's a assumption of course. It may or may not happen ? I think I have at least a couple year window before I have to be concerned. I'm all for it as long as we slap a 75% tariff on their products.
And in case you haven't noticed, we haven't been fighting any wars in China, nor do I think we probably will in my lifetime.
I do think it's possible at some point in my lifetime.
I will just say that if you are being sincere, then I can sincerely assure you that you will NOT be getting your way.
Well based on this past november elections I'm pretty confident I'll get my way.
With the roomier interior and trunk, I think the Impala with the 3.9 is the best value. The Impala would be my choice. However, either the Aura or the G6 with the 3.6 has the most sophisticated powertrain; it just depends upon which has the styling you prefer, plus the reputation of Saturn dealers. Also, the Grand Prix has a bulletproof, though perhaps dated, engine. Either the G6 or Aura with the 3.5 should give the best fuel economy, though less refinement and performance than with the 3.6.
Corvette is about the only domestic car that I would consider.
Let's do a little comparison by each segment of why I wouldn't even have a chance to consider domestic over import:
Subcompact: Fit vs. Aveo Compact: Civic vs. Cobalt Midsize: Accord vs. Aura Fullsize: Avalon vs. Impala Compact SUV: RAV4 vs. Equinox/Edge Midsize SUV: 4Runner vs. Explorer Compact Luxury: IS350/335i vs. CTS Midsize Luxury: 535i vs. STS Fullsize Luxury: LS460 vs. DTS Luxury Compact SUV: RDX vs. MKX Luxury Midsize SUV: MDX/X5 vs. SRX Exotic Sport: Porsche 911 vs. Corvette Z06
About the only advantages the domestic has over the import are in the fullsize SUV and truck segment. Unfortunately, I don't buy and would never buy those.
Was seriously considering between the Z06 and Porsche Caymen S for my weekend car but oh well...
TI'm all for it as long as we slap a 75% tariff on their products.
Then of course we all will start writing a thank you letter to Detroit for putting ONLY 50% price increase (as opposed to planned 70%) on their "all new" Impala that they just issued with their best in ther world vintage 3.5L pushrod and three-speed transmission, same body panels as last year, but wait - there was new color for shifter, which will be a great redesign for the next three years.
Oh yes, please bring those 75% tarrifs - I have a better idea - 200% and additional 10% surcharge on "Domestic Manufacturer Marketing Foundation", from which a new commercial campaign will be run. You know "Thruth about import buyers" campaign. Never heard of one?
Spot one: Obnoxious, snobby, good looking and obviously dumb young man from Notheast (you know - old money) is going to even more obnoxious import dealer, where he is begging him to sell this new Corrolla, because if not, his country club would not let him in. Cadillacs are strictly off limits in such places. It all end "dou you really want to be one of them"
Spot two: An anonymous guy hand an import dealer cash, which is immediately handed to a carrier who flies it to Tokyo. There a scary fat guy collects it among many others and hand the cash to ten agents who fly back to Detroit and infiltrate those shiny state of the art GM and Ford facilities in attempt of wrecking the production, make R&D departments intentionally cheapen and run down the heroic design efforts done by best engineers and stylists in the world. Then they of course get caugth on the act and all end with "We care, remember - 20% increase will not go for nothing"
Yes Rocky - brilliant idea - more tarrifs, less competition. Lets screw 250 million Americans and save 50 thosand jobs. Why not?
Comments
Amazing how you get that from the comment :P
Maybe I and the analysts are wrong but GM is growing significantly outside the US in sales. If you mean is he giving up the #1 spot here in the US? Well 3 years ago GM would have cranked up the plants, throw on another $3000 in incentives and keep the top spot here. Instead they are closing plants to get capacity equal with demand. Had to get concessions from the union to do it. Transactions are up $2k a vehicle. Residuals are up. i.e the 2005 Cobalt had an ALG residual of 30% and today the 2007 is at 44% compared to the 47% on a Civic. Not bad work for 2 years and the same vehicle.
Some analysts think GM's fourth-quarter earnings could surprise Wall Street. GM reported Wednesday that the average price per new car sales and leases rose by 7 percent in the fourth quarter. That provides "a significant boost to revenues," says Credit Suisse analyst Christopher Ceraso, who equates it to an increase of roughly $1,800 per vehicle, or $2 billion in incremental earnings over a year ago. That growth makes it more likely fourth-quarter earnings will "surprise to the upside," he writes. In December, Robert Barry of Goldman Sachs, said he was "feeling better" about GM's fourth quarter because of improvements in cost savings. Stabilizing gas prices in November led consumers back toward profitable SUVs and light trucks, says David Silver of Wall Street Strategies. November light-truck sales rose 16.6 percent, and Cadillac Escalade SUV sales almost doubled, he notes.
Lots of work to do but things are better now than at the start of the 2006 year.
With Toyota breathing down their necks in worldwide sales, I can see why GM would want to continue to grow in areas where they are succeeding and selling more models while conceeding to areas like the US where GM's reputation may not be all that positive...
I live in Philly and I have seen about 10 Auras so far, three of which were XR models. while I understand that domestics arent seen on the west coast, that isnt representative of the rest of the country. While people love to point out that the BIg 3 arent big sellers out there they never point out that most of the marketshare gains posted by Toyota and Honda can be traced to that region. If we removed California from the market imagine how low Toyota and Honda's marketshare would be.
Toyota will also launch the redesigned Highlander this spring, and two new Scions (small volume there). But I agree this will probably be a year of smaller growth at Toyota.
Honda will redesign the Accord to introduce in the fall, which I think will give them a BIGGER boost this year than in 2006. Plus it will be the first full year of sales of the new CRV, which has been very popular.
I notice you don't mention Ford in your comments. I think this could be another year when the Chevy brand beats out the Ford brand for highest annual sales. F-150 and Explorer sales have fallen dramatically this last year, and of course GM doesn't depend as heavily on Silverado and Trailblazer sales for its success as Ford depends on its two sales leaders.
I do think it will be a much worse year for DCX and Ford than it will be for GM, which bit the bullet and did a lot of the painful surgery last year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They keep saying that, but I guess down from what is my question? Here are some GM vehicles with the percentage of 2006 fleet sales:
Cobalt 33.8%
Vibe 36.4%
Malibu 60.3%
G6 42.3%
LaCrosse 29.3%
Lucerne 28.8%
Impala 54.8%
Monte Carlo 68.5%
Grand Prix 74.0%
2006 Mid-Year Fleet Sales
Ford is in trouble for the next few years, GM is in much better shape product wise. If the Fusion and Edge are successful I do think Ford might be able to stabilize it's share this year. Ford is also launching an updated 500 and Freestyle which MAY help them. I think comparing GM's 2007 sales with their 2006 sales is going to be more valid than '06 vs '05 when the incentives were being piled on.
DCX isnt in good shape at all in terms of product. The 300 is aging and I doubt the Sebring will be a big seller. The new vans will help, but they arent coming out until fall. DCX is way too truck heavy and they are still using tons of incentives.
The thing that table shows is that Hyundai/Kia is utilizing fleet sales big time to boost its numbers.
Are they talking cars, trucks, pencils, what? Do you seriously believe that number?
4,100,000 x 75% = 3,075,000. Yeah right.
Toyota Camry
Toyota FJ Cruiser
Toyota Yaris
Lexus LS460
Lexus GS350/GS450h
Toyota new products for 2007:
Toyota Corolla
Toyota Tundra
Toyota Highland
Lexus RX
Lexus LS600h
Lexus IS-F
Either way Toyota isnt going to have nearly as much new product next year.
Doesn't look that way to me
That's not what I said. I asked down from what? You replied "down from previous years." Sounds like a typical GM smoke and mirrors response.
Plants being closed because many were running below capacity but were kept running to keep because there was no reason to close them. They would have had to pay the workforce even if closed. Those above demand vehicles were sent to the rental companies.
GM imports very few vehicles from outside of NA. As far as Opel, GM is doing the same thing taht Toyota/Honda has done by going to world vehicles. There will be sharing of platforms across the world and that should be more efficient and profitable. Those vehicles are still being developed by the US and will be primarily be built here.
They started biting the bullets 3 years ago. Just got the huge union concessions last year. The salaried have been losing benefits and no pay increases for about 3 years and the buy outs started back then. Also started improving the product (hired Lutz) 4 years ago and quality started to really improve 4 years ago (Century and Impala bested Camry / Accord in quality then)
Is that for the U.S. or world-wide? Do you really believe that?
Yes, because if was not true the press would be all over them and they could get in big trouble. How? because comments like that can get people to make stock buying/selling decisions and as you know companies are scared as heck now to not get in trouble with the government. Look at Enron.
Same goes for something like a plastic wheelcover Camry LE etc...I see them, and I think 'rental' or 'old rental'.
In my area, I could easily say that 75% of GPS and 50% of Impalas are not private sales.
If GM follows through with their commitment to really cut fleet sales (and I am fully prepared to believe some of those fleet numbers, like those for the Grand Prix, a model which SCREAMS fleet fave), I see their market share stabilizing at no more than 20%. By the time they get through their restructuring, I think the Chinese will be here, and they will probably grab some market share too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As Lemko, said at some point you will get to buy them in bulk at Sams or Walley World for a nominal fee.
Rocky
Now that has changed. While many japanese vehicles are still imported there are some plants here and folks views are changing on what helps America.
It could also be type of vehicle. Larger cars and trucks fit well in the midwest with all that open land. While the smaller vehicles (made better by the imports 20 years ago) fit better in the heavily congested streets of California.
recalls for '06 plummeted. Also Ford and DCX had more recalls than GM. Toyota had half of GM. BUT this is based on vehicles recalled. So if you sell a lot of vehicles on the same platform you can get hit hard by one recall.
In fact Toyota had more recalls in '05 than GM had in '06.
Just another quantitative fact on how quality has improved at GM. m Interesting tidbit is that the article says the GM's (and Acura's) OnStar were helpiing cut warranty and recall cost.
One interesting point is that after the recall laws changed recalls spiked (almost doubled) in '04 but have dropped below the trend line for '06.
GM had 20 recalls for '06 and only 2 involved more than 100k cars.
As for the Grand Prix, many of the models I see are the GT model with the 260hp engine which tells me those cars are not rentals. If I see a base model with wheel covers than I tend to think it may be a rental. In CA perhaps 90% of GPs are from the airport, but that's not the case where I live. Same goes for the Impala, most Impalas I see are the LT3 or LTZ models with the 17" wheels. I doubt most rentals are anything but the base LT model.
Look at the list again, the only volume seller I see in 06' is the Camry, count the Yaris if you want. However in 07', Corolla, Tundra and Highlander are all volume sellers. If the RX is being launched as well, then that's another one for you. Now I think there is a possibility that Toyota will push Highlander and RX's launch back to 08' since they'll need some new volume sellers by then. Here's another list for your for new Toyota in the 08'-09' time frame:
Toyota Sequoia
Toyota 4Runner
Toyota Land Cruiser
Toyota Sienna
Lexus RX (might be in 07')
Lexus GX
Lexus LX
Looks like for the next couple years, Toyota launches will be either truck-heavy or crossover-heavy.
My brother lives in Michigan. When I was helping him shop for cars for him and his wife, he said if you don't drive American around here, people won't do business with you.
That's why I hate the midwest [among other reasons] You have to worry about what you drive. Otherwise some fat bloated union worker will get offended that your not keeping his fat, lazy, [non-permissible content removed] in a job, and egg your car. [happened to me when I lived there]
Either that or there is some kind of fad for private owners to remove the dealer frames and put a little barcode on a back side window...
I don't know a single person who owns either car, FWIW
Quality/durability is still behind..How many friends do you have who have an Accord or Camary with over 200k miles with no real issues....
Market share in NA will continue to hang around, no one is going to Own the day.
Profit- ? Still too many plants, still have leagacy cost issues, have unhappy emploees and suppliers ...Sounds like a solid base for real growth..NO
Rocky
Did I get that right? Just for the record.
That's why I hate the midwest [among other reasons] You have to worry about what you drive. Otherwise some fat bloated union worker will get offended that your not keeping his fat, lazy, [non-permissible content removed] in a job, and egg your car. [happened to me when I lived there]
I was being sarcastic because of all the rude things he was saying about michiganders and I'm calling B.S. on it because I did lived in michigan not to far where he claims to live and plenty of people drive imports in his neck of the woods and aren't hassled like he claims.... :confuse:
Rocky
All the other car companies in the world figured out a long time ago that in order to survive globalization (which, by the way, is all done - we are globalized...love it or hate it, but you can't change the reality) they would have to expand and diversify out across the globe. The domestics were very tardy in coming to this realization, but that's not the fault of folks who don't like American cars.
Better late than never, GM is the American company that is now globalizing the most (the folks at Ford talk about it a whole lot, but actually DO precious little), with DCX close on their heels. That's a smart move. We are almost, ALMOST at the point where the car you buy has no nationality any more: designed in one country, built in another, with the profits going to yet a third. I realize people would love to debate the "what does American MEAN?" topic to death, so I will put that aside, but if I may presume to sum up the flag-wavers' position, it is that buying GM is good for keeping people in the U.S. employed.
But look around you - the reality is that the unions are losing their grip in the face of a new economic reality, more and more GM models have been and will be designed and built somewhere outside our borders, and these reasons you cite for buying GM may be more and more misguided every year that goes by.
edit...footnote: 1487 said above that 20 years ago imports did a much better job of building small cars. My contention is that they still do. And this may be part of the big divide here: the Midwesterners and the Texans love their huge trucks and large cars. GM and Ford are really good at MAKING huge trucks and large cars. They cater well to some markets, but maybe they cater poorly to the REST of the U.S. - the coasts. If so, that will always limit their sales in this country, unless they change their way of thinking.
And by the way, when I say small cars, I am thinking subcompacts and compacts by the EPA definition. Heck, DCX's smalest model is considered midsize by that definition (the Caliber), so they don't even SELL a small car here any more. GM is the only one of the three even selling two or more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Did I get that right? Just for the record.
Well for the record I will say this. If you try to buy american made goods as often as possible then you love america more so than somebody that doesn't give a rat where it's made as long as they save a buck or get the "wow factor" they wanted.
You can quote me.
Rocky
Wow, this is definitely a first, someone is trying to tell me that either "I" love the country or not by what I buy and what I drive.
BTW, Rocky, are you really here to lobby for GM or trying to hurt GM's image? If all GM supporters/owners are like you then I definitely do not want to be one of them. Also, if that's the case why would anybody outside US buy GM, Ford and Chrysler?
Perhaps on this forum but you will find plenty of the same patriotism on other blogs where chryslers's and ford's are the topic of discussion.
All the other car companies in the world figured out a long time ago that in order to survive globalization (which, by the way, is all done - we are globalized...love it or hate it, but you can't change the reality) they would have to expand and diversify out across the globe. The domestics were very tardy in coming to this realization, but that's not the fault of folks who don't like American cars.
Globalization might be a reality for ONLY 2 more years if I get my way.
Better late than never, GM is the American company that is now globalizing the most (the folks at Ford talk about it a whole lot, but actually DO precious little), with DCX close on their heels. That's a smart move. We are almost, ALMOST at the point where the car you buy has no nationality any more: designed in one country, built in another, with the profits going to yet a third. I realize people would love to debate the "what does American MEAN?" topic to death, so I will put that aside, but if I may presume to sum up the flag-wavers' position, it is that buying GM is good for keeping people in the U.S. employed.
So going global and sending billions of dollars to mad men acround the globe is great for america ? I suppose until the next war starts because we funded the building up of foreign military's because we consumers wanted to save a buck. Then those same consumers will have the "hair" to complain about how much money we spent on the next war and thus taxes will have to be increased to pay for it. So in the end you'd been better off buying the domestic product because at the endd of the day it would of saved you a few bucks, few lives, and a few jobs. I however know the majority of you don't buy my opinion
But look around you - the reality is that the unions are losing their grip in the face of a new economic reality, more and more GM models have been and will be designed and built somewhere outside our borders, and these reasons you cite for buying GM may be more and more misguided every year that goes by.
Perhaps, but some of us aren't going to wave the white flag just yet. I think 2008' is the make or break year for the domestics. It will decide if they get to stay or have to further expand globally. If the wrong person sits in the White House, in 08' the big 2.5 are doomed. :sick:
Rocky
You would never drive or buy one anyways because it wouldn't protray a faux status.
Also, if that's the case why would anybody outside US buy GM, Ford and Chrysler?
They don't as you and your import only loving friends say.......So why does that matter ????
Rocky
Thanks, Rocky, to have such confidence in me. Was having my eyes set on the Corvette Z06 for my weekend fun car but I guess not anymore. Porsche here I come...
BTW, if people ever ask me in the future why I wouldn't buy GM products my answer will begin like this: This guy at Edmunds forum once told me...
Also, since this is a public forum, I am not the only one that's reading your post you know?
Now that DCX has cleared the way with their first Chery deal for Dodges to be sold in the U.S., you can bet GM won't be far behind, although in that case it will probably be Chinese workers in a Chinese GM factory building the cars, rather than a licensing agreement like DCX.
And in case you haven't noticed, we haven't been fighting any wars in China, nor do I think we probably will in my lifetime.
And as for
"Globalization might be a reality for ONLY 2 more years if I get my way."
I will just say that if you are being sincere, then I can sincerely assure you that you will NOT be getting your way. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
louiswei,
I'm suppose to believe you were going use a Z06 for a weekend fun car after you have trashed every GM or Ford car made ever since I've met you. Dude lets get real !!! :confuse:
BTW, if people ever ask me in the future why I wouldn't buy GM products my answer will begin like this: This guy at Edmunds forum once told me...
Based on observation of your forum posts you leave me with no other position or conclusion. you have openly admitted you don't think domestics are worthy cars. I honestly can't recall a time when you've said a nice thing about a GM product.
Also, since this is a public forum, I am not the only one that's reading your post you know?
I don't care because what I'm saying is true. You have a strong dislike like mediapusher for domestic cars. Just admit it. I suppose their is nothing wrong with that because many americans feel the same way. Go drive you a Porsche, I could care less if you rent one or not. Have a good time if that's what you want to do. If you want to rent a Vette, you can come back and tell us how horrible of an experience it was on monday. :confuse:
Rocky
Yes it makes good business sense when your own government is driving you out of your homeland.
Now that DCX has cleared the way with their first Chery deal for Dodges to be sold in the U.S., you can bet GM won't be far behind, although in that case it will probably be Chinese workers in a Chinese GM factory building the cars, rather than a licensing agreement like DCX.
That's a assumption of course. It may or may not happen ? I think I have at least a couple year window before I have to be concerned. I'm all for it as long as we slap a 75% tariff on their products.
And in case you haven't noticed, we haven't been fighting any wars in China, nor do I think we probably will in my lifetime.
I do think it's possible at some point in my lifetime.
I will just say that if you are being sincere, then I can sincerely assure you that you will NOT be getting your way.
Well based on this past november elections I'm pretty confident I'll get my way.
Rocky
Let's do a little comparison by each segment of why I wouldn't even have a chance to consider domestic over import:
Subcompact: Fit vs. Aveo
Compact: Civic vs. Cobalt
Midsize: Accord vs. Aura
Fullsize: Avalon vs. Impala
Compact SUV: RAV4 vs. Equinox/Edge
Midsize SUV: 4Runner vs. Explorer
Compact Luxury: IS350/335i vs. CTS
Midsize Luxury: 535i vs. STS
Fullsize Luxury: LS460 vs. DTS
Luxury Compact SUV: RDX vs. MKX
Luxury Midsize SUV: MDX/X5 vs. SRX
Exotic Sport: Porsche 911 vs. Corvette Z06
About the only advantages the domestic has over the import are in the fullsize SUV and truck segment. Unfortunately, I don't buy and would never buy those.
Was seriously considering between the Z06 and Porsche Caymen S for my weekend car but oh well...
Then of course we all will start writing a thank you letter to Detroit for putting ONLY 50% price increase (as opposed to planned 70%) on their "all new"
Impala that they just issued with their best in ther world vintage 3.5L pushrod and three-speed transmission, same body panels as last year, but wait - there was new color for shifter, which will be a great redesign for the next three years.
Oh yes, please bring those 75% tarrifs - I have a better idea - 200% and additional 10% surcharge on "Domestic Manufacturer Marketing Foundation", from which a new commercial campaign will be run. You know "Thruth about import buyers" campaign. Never heard of one?
Spot one:
Obnoxious, snobby, good looking and obviously dumb young man from Notheast (you know - old money) is going to even more obnoxious import dealer, where he is begging him to sell this new Corrolla, because if not, his country club would not let him in. Cadillacs are strictly off limits in such places. It all end "dou you really want to be one of them"
Spot two: An anonymous guy hand an import dealer cash, which is immediately handed to a carrier who flies it to Tokyo. There a scary fat guy collects it among many others and hand the cash to ten agents who fly back to Detroit and infiltrate those shiny state of the art GM and Ford facilities in attempt of wrecking the production, make R&D departments intentionally cheapen and run down the heroic design efforts done by best engineers and stylists in the world. Then they of course get caugth on the act and all end with "We care, remember - 20% increase will not go for nothing"
Yes Rocky - brilliant idea - more tarrifs, less competition. Lets screw 250 million Americans and save 50 thosand jobs. Why not?
2018 430i Gran Coupe