General Motors discussions

torque_r

Here is your Top 10 SUV list for 2006. The winners: 2 Chevys, 2 Fords, 2 Jeeps, 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotos.

1- Ford Explorer: ------------ 179,229 down 25%
2- Chevy Trailblazer: -------- 174,797 down 28%
3- Honda CR-V: --------------- 170,028 up 14%
4- Chevy Tahoe: -------------- 161,491 up 6%
5- Ford Escape: -------------- 157,395 down 5%
6- Honda Pilot: -------------- 152,154 up 7%
7- Toyota RAV4: ------------- 152,047 up 116%
8- Jeep G. Cherokee: --------- 139,148 down 35%
9- Jeep Liberty: ------------ 133,557 down 20%
10- Toyota Highlander: ------ 129,794 down 5%

bigo08

Actually the new CTS uses a new 6 Speed Auto, and 6 Speed Manual your choice

the 3.6 Liter is not a pushrod....

rockylee

And it does have direct-injection......Good God what happened to 1487 ???? :surprise:

1487, it does have swivel headlamps, ventilated seats a Bang & Olfsen Mega-Watt surround sound
system(probably the 1000 watt one Audi uses) Bluetooth, Voice Recognition, A new retractable huge moonroof, sport suspension option, etc, etc. etc, These are just off the top of my head. What is missing ?????

Rocky

british_rover

Here is your Top 10 SUV list for 2006. The winners: 2 Chevys, 2 Fords, 2 Jeeps, 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotos.

1- Ford Explorer: ------------ 179,229 down 25%
2- Chevy Trailblazer: -------- 174,797 down 28%
3- Honda CR-V: --------------- 170,028 up 14%
4- Chevy Tahoe: -------------- 161,491 up 6%
5- Ford Escape: -------------- 157,395 down 5%
6- Honda Pilot: -------------- 152,154 up 7%
7- Toyota RAV4: ------------- 152,047 up 116%
8- Jeep G. Cherokee: --------- 139,148 down 35%
9- Jeep Liberty: ------------ 133,557 down 20%
10- Toyota Highlander: ------ 129,794 down 5%

I am sorry what does that show besides the fact that all the domestics but one are down and all the imports but one are up.

YOu also need to correct that by saying top 10 SUVs by volume. Volume doesn't not necessarily mean the best.

anythngbutgm

Man, did Explorer sales tank or what? :surprise: Same for the JGC, I remember when those two were going at it with like 300 - 400 thousand sales each!

62vetteefp

Crossovers are taking their toll on SUV's.

Just heard that gas will be under $2 again just like last year at this time! $2.04 down the road here.

Kirstie_H

A ton of them were removed. Hate to be this way, but any post that contains any comment that is about another member rather than about the automotive industry will be zapped without notice. Please read carefully before hitting the "post" button.

210delray

Thanks very much! Great to see the hosts are on the ball!

This is the reason I like Edmunds so much over other forums!

210delray

To paraphrase the R.E.M. song,

"It's the end of the SUV as we know it, and I feel glad!"

bumpy

The all-new Tahoe got outsold by the CR-V? Wow, and blowout sales are probably all that kept the Trailblazer and Explorer from getting beat.

anythngbutgm

Leonard Bernstien!

62vetteefp

Yea, $1500 really moved the Trailblazer metal. OK maybe the $5000 on 2006 models in December sold a few.

nippononly

$2.69 a gallon here, up a dime in the last week or so after a $0.20 fall before that. What happened to winter prices? Gas at this time last year was $2.26/gallon. I remember because I made a note of it to compare this year. So it is up about what, 20% in a single year? Oh well, let the oil companies have their party now, the future may not look too bright. :-/

The Explorer was selling with massive incentives (as was TB for a short while). The only thing I can't figure out is why the Freestyle doesn't top those charts. Ford should just accept that the day of the Explorer-type ute is over, and really push the Freestyle in advertising.

Oh but wait, this is the GM thread.

Next year, I expect to see the Tahoe even further down, and combined sales of Acadia/Outlook/etc topping the charts.

And I believe 1487 was being sarcastic. He was actually pointing out that the new CTS is very impressive IHO, I believe.

rockylee

nippon,

You and I disagree about the Full-size SUV's next year because I do think the 2-mode hybrid models will be quite popular choice for many customers that will see 30 mpg hwy is possible. Well that was what the test mule Escalade was getting.

Rocky

nippononly

Oops. yeah I forgot this is the year of the hybrid launch. When are they supposed to be available at dealers? I am curious to see what people (and the press) get initially for mpg.

If they can really do 30 mpg in around-town, or even 25, then I think Tahoe sales could easily go up. Now 99% of all Escalade buyers probably don't care about fuel economy, I would think.

62vetteefp

What IYO is a massive incentive? I went thru the whole year of incentives and it was $0 for quite a bit and up to $1500 on current models sometimes. Did find $5000 on last years model in December but that makes sense since they need to get rid of them. I did not go thru each month.

Actually Tahoe (2008) will probably be about the same or higher volume since they were in tight supply for the first 8 months. And the hybrid version (out late 2007 CY though) will bump up sales significantly if they do get 30 mpg highway. Why buy a CR-V when a full size vehicle gets better? (oh yea, the price delta of $25K between CR-V and Yukon may do it)!! Since the old models are pretty much gone they will not have any competition from themselves! And it really does look like oil prices are going to go down but that can change at any minute.

62vetteefp

True but now the enviromentalist can trade in their Prius and buy one and not feel bad. :P

rockylee

LOL.......2008' will really be the big hybrid launch year for GM. I could almost see Al Gore Driving around in a hybrid Tahoe. :P

Rocky

nippononly

are we talking about Explorer or TB with respect to massive incentives? The Explorer was running around a $3000 rebate when the year started and was well on its way to $5-6K by year's end, wasn't it? And as for TB, I was just reflecting on the $5000 rebate that someone else said they had towards the end of the year. The TB is an old model for GM now, and I think it has served its purpose well for them. If I were them I would back-shelve its redesign (or demise in '08?) and work on other more pressing projects.

I am assuming hybrid Yukons will run around $45K? I think people interested in Yukons anyway won't bat an eyelash at the price premium in what is already an expensive vehicle, but I don't think it's going to grab many CRV buyers! :-P

And no Prius owner is going to trade a 45 mpg Prius for a 25 mpg Yukon unless they desperately needed a large truck for some other reason. :-)

I am VERY curious to see what mpgs the hybrid GMT900s can pull in the real world. What will the least expensive hybrid model be, and about how much will it sticker?

rockylee

Price you up a Tahoe and just add $2K for hybrid and you will have a real close est.

Rocky

chevy598

I agree. GM's full size suvs will be up next year because of the hybrids. The new crossovers will do more damage to the trailblazer/explorer.

nippononly

1487 was right on the money - the interior of the new CTS is gorgeous! FINALLY, this is what the interior of a Cadillac should look like! GM is "bringin' da noize". :-)

Next step for the CTS (in a couple of years maybe?): make the DI 3.6 standard. Not every model has to have an optional engine, and the DI not only adds power from the 3.6, it also improves fuel economy. This is a Cadillac, top of the heap, after all.

1487

I was being smart. The CTS is hot, I was just trying to emulate the haters who wont give GM any credit even when it's due. I cant wait to hear what excuses we're going to get about the CTS from the "all domestic cars are crap" genuises on this forum.

1487

Here is a tidbit for you. GM has reduced incentives, even on old models like the Trailblazer. That, along with gas prices and the age of that model, explain why it's down so much. Some have commented that the 4Runner was up while the explorer and trailblazer weren't. Do I really need to explain why the 4Runner's sales were up in spite of it's mediocre fuel economy? Here's a hint, check out the Toyota ads in your local paper and see how much the 4Runner is being discounted. Around here its like $5k. The highlander is being heavily discounted as well and it's sales were still down.

chevy598

The domestic haters will find a reason anyway. You'll hear that the radio buttons are unrefined compared to a Lexus. Or my personal favorite, the CTS lacks a 27 speed transmission.

torque_r

Agreed. Not just gorgeous, but materials and quality seems top notch.

rockylee

LOL, I thought for a momment you went off the deep end. :P

Rocky

rockylee

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0efe1c?displayRecent

Post# 109 out of 111

fintail

Greenhouse seems too angular and the grille is too big, but that interior sure looks better. I wish they had smoothed it out a little more.

62vetteefp

Trailblazer. right now there is a $1500-$2000 on '07's and $5k on '06's. Explorer is $1000/$3000.

That was my point on the yukon vs. CR-V Different market. but the environmentalist driving great Toyotas (with average corporate fuel economy now on top of GM) will poo poo the hybrid Yukon.

nippononly

The current Highlander hybrid is rated 31/27 and seems to be getting about 25 mpg in real-world terms. Now if the new Yukon hybrid can also make 25 mpg real-world, I can see it pulling plenty of Highlander buyers out of that model, as it sells in the upper $30Ks. Even so, though, the Highlander is smaller and more carlike, which some buyers will want.

and torque: yeah, that's part of what I meant - not only is the CTS's interior really gorgeous-looking, but the materials are so much betetr than the current model.

imidazol97

I've stuck with DexCool and used commonsense regular flushes at 2 years or less. I rinse out the old with two refills of hot water. Then I fill with pure orange DexCool since there's some water still in the block to get up to the right percent.

If I change it would be to the Havoline product that says it's compatible with DexCool and the others. Is that red? I thought it was green.

1487

Never that, I just thought it would be fun to see what its like to criticize products from GM regardless of their merits. I think the CTS will be criticized for not having an 8 speed auto, no iDrive/MMI (hey if Germans do it, it must be great) and lack of distronic cruise control because we all know that is an essential feature. This car is an American G35 with better looks.

I do have to wonder how many competent vehicles GM will have to turn out before haters acknowledge they are on the right track. I don't think there is any doubt that they are the best domestic automaker right now. I would rank them above Nissan as well in terms of products. In fact, in terms of full line automakers I would only rank Toyota ahead of GM in terms of PRODUCT. I'm not talking resale value or corporate profits.

grbeck

imidazol97: They must not have checked the oil and fluids weekly or even monthly.

They faithfully followed the maintenance schedule recommended by GM, and continued to have it serviced out of warranty at the local dealer.

Incidentally, I thought that only Honda and Toyota owners needed to do this, and their faithfulness in this regard was the sole reason for their vehicles' superior reliability?

imidazol97: GM should have replaced problems outside of warranty. But then they should have done a secret warranty replacement too as some companies have done things.

GM did step up to the plate for my co-worker after I found the TSB. So the company did do right by her.

Incidentally, after this happened, my dad asked me about the new Buick Lucerne. He feels that he got his money's worth out of the Park Avenue, even with a repaired engine ($1,500), and would like another Buick.

So it's not only Toyota and Honda owners who apparently overlook major component failures.

And for the record, I told him that he would probably like the Lucerne, and he should definitely look at it for his next car, but stick with the V-6 for better economy and lower overall costs. He's happy with GM (since the first GM car they owned, a 1965 Chevy Bel Air station wagon bought used in 1968), so why make him change at this point in his life? Especially since he is happy with the local dealer, and doesn't want to drive 30-40 miles from their small town for service or warranty work.

And my mother-in-law was asking about the current Malibu, too. I told her it would be a fine car for her (although the upcoming one is a dramatic improvement in virtually every aspect, and something that I might consider, but I didn't tell her that). Given her financial situation, however, a brand-new car is not a possibility.

So, some of us critics aren't always anti-GM. We criticize because we know that GM HAS done better, and CAN do better.

If the new crossovers, Malibu and CTS are any indication, GM may finally be back on track.

scott1256

imidazol97

I didn't mean to be harsh about the need to check the levels of coolant and oil regularly. I realize that most (many?) owners don't; but they should. That catches the beginnings of problems if you realize it's not the right pattern and get to a dealer. I warned my father-in-law to check regularly after the problem surfaces since he's a Buick owner (80) who depends on the garage to change the oil twice a year and do the checks.

I realize also the coolant expands and contracts with ambient temperature changes and with residual heat in the motor making it hard to compare unless you have a flat spot and check after motor has completely cooled. Even then a 20-30 degree difference in my garage shrinks the coolant level. Checking hot doesn't work well either, unless the car has been completely saturated with a long trip. I like cold garage checks better.

bumpy

I do have to wonder how many competent vehicles GM will have to turn out before haters acknowledge they are on the right track.

About a decade's worth, across the board in ALL segments and product lines. GM has a lot of past sins to make amends for.

louiswei

I just thought it would be fun to see what its like to criticize products from GM regardless of their merits.

This is what a so-called "import lover" has to say about the new CTS.

Not exactly standard of the world...

Technology & Craftmanship

Easy Key™ system only an option, not standard.
Upgrade audio system: 10-speaker, 300-watt Bose (IS350: 14-speaker, 1-subwoofer, 300-watt Mark-Levinson)
Base audio system: 8-speaker (IS350: 13-speaker, 1-subwoofer)

I'll give Caddy credit to the “cut-and-sew” interior. However, the material quality is still remain to be seen. I don't think it'll dissappoint though.

Performance

I wouldn't call 300 HP, 270 lb-ft the standard of the world (or even class in this case) either. IS350's 2GR-FSE utilized both direct & port-injection instead of this 3.6L's direct-injection.

Weight: 3872 lbs, that's the heaviest of them all in the entry level luxury performance sedan class. Although CTS is officially a midsize comparing to other compacts such as the 3er, IS and G.

Don't see how this one can beat G35 in 0-60 since the G is lighter with a more or less equal power engine (306 HP). If it couldn't beat the G then definitely couldn't beat the 335i and IS350.

Based on what I read I think this is a very competitive product from GM and should do very well in the ELLPS market. One thing remain to be seen is the handling, I am looking forward to the future comparos and my own test drive later this year. Wouldn't be surprised to see the new CTS's handling to be on par with the 3er or at least not far away from it since that's one of the old CTS's strength.

1487

That is ridiculous. Hyundai has gotten a new lease on life within the last 5 years or so buy consistently making competent vehicles that can hold their own against comparable Hondas/Toyotas. No manufacturer has class leading product across every segment, not even Toyota. In today's marketplace its ridiculous to expect GM to be able to blow away the competition in every segment. Toyota makes $10B a year in profit and that yields about three class leading vehicles and a whole lot of average vehicles. If GM is making cars like this while they are in the hole, imagine what they will bring out when they are making money. Your only as good as your latest product so the whole "I hate GM because of the products they made 15 years ago" line of thinking is stupid. GM isnt selling 15 year old cars now so any logical person would judge them on what they are selling today. However, when all else fails continue to argue that you wont buy GM today because of sins of decades past. I dont think Toyota has designed many attractive cars over its 40 years in the US but that doesnt mean I wouldnt buy one if they managed to come up with something decent. Of course that's strictly hypothetical because I have little faith they will ever come up with a car I find genuinely attractive. The Camry is close.

1487

who said anything about Standard of the World? Import fanatics are so desperate they bring up marketing slogans from 80 years ago and then try and prove how current Caddies dont live up to that slogan.

Newsflash: There is a reason they dont use that slogan anymore. I do not see your point. Who here ever claimed the CTS is the standard of the world?

I dont think we have to be Harvard grads to figure out this car is designed to handle. I would expect it to be at least as good as the current car. In case you didnt notice the hp ratings are estimates which probably means actual hp will be somewhat higher. IN fact, autoblog states that the engine will have more than 300hp. Even if it doesnt I dont see 6hp as being significant. You are bragging about Lexus using port and direct injection but the IS350 only has 6 additional hp with .1 of extra displacement. What is your point? That port injection gave the Lexus a whole 6hp? I would think the G35 and CTS output would suggest the Lexus engine should be making more power. The G35 doesnt even use DI and matches the IS350's hp.

The CTS is heavy because of its size, if you compare its weight to the 530, E320, etc you will find its very close to those cars. It may not be faster than the G35 but it should be under 6 secs and that is more than quick enough. The Aura gets to 60 in 6.2 secs with 252hp and a 3600lb curb weight. My guess is 5.7 secs for CTS which is very close to G35 6MT.

louiswei

Who here ever claimed the CTS is the standard of the world?

Trying to make a point of that this car isn't exactly the benchmark of the class yet as someone here STRONGLY suggested. The benchmark is still the 3-series, for a hefty price that is.

IS350 only has 6 additional hp with .1 of extra displacement.

Correction: IS350 has .1L less displacement than the 3.6 on the CTS.

The 2GR-FSE used on the IS is a slightly de-tunned version. Reportly the same engine that'll be use on the future Toyota Supra will have around 350 HP. Also the reason that duel mode injection was used on the 2GR-FSE is to increase its FE, not performance.

Agree that the CTS is more comparable to 530i/E320. Didn't I mention that in my previous post? No doubt that its 0-60 time will be under 6 sec. To be honest, I don't see much difference if it's 5.7 or 5.3 sec.

nippononly

that while bragging rights will go to the model that the press can race the fastest, most drivers won't care as long as it's "sporty". I am sure the CTS will be plenty sporty - the old one certainly was when I drove it. It was sporty enough with the 2.8 and a stick, so it is possible to get carried away in the hp wars. A much better goal is to build a fast competent chassis. The CTS has that.

1487: you find the Camry close to attractive? I still hate the Bangle butt, which Toyota is now mimicking wholesale on the new sedans, including most of the Lexus line. I realize it is a way to advertise more trunk space without making the car longer, but maybe trunk space is overrated...

I don't hate GM but I will certainly concede it is on the right track. The thing with GM is, it will have to STAY on the right track. The most significant thing about the new CTS is not its horsepower or interior or handling, it is the fact that GM made good on its promise to not abandon the line after the Y2K revitalization, but to continue with frequent and timely product updates. Now for the DTS... ;-)

So how much does anyone think the price of the CTS will rise, or has it already been announced?

bumpy

[tirade snipped]

Who said anything about blowing away? GM needs to make competent vehicles with consistently admirable design and build quality and no excuses. Right now they have a handful of competent vehicles (Corvette, the new CTS, the Astra if it makes it over here unmolested), some middling efforts (Impala, Lucerne, Tahoe, Aura), and a raft of subcompetent leftovers from the bad old days (all the minivans, the Cobalt and its clones, the old Malibu).

GM might not be selling the worst of the worst anymore, but most of the people GM screwed out of their money back then are still in the market and won't easily forgive the damage done to their wallets. Hyundai and Kia's saving grace is that the number of people hosed by their bad products was an order or two of magnitude less than the number porked over by the domestics over the years. The Koreans still have a ways to go before their rehabilitation will be complete in most people's eyes. GM has longer still to go since they started later and have much more ground to cover.

I have little faith they will ever come up with a car I find genuinely attractive. The Camry is close.

The 2007 Camry is easily the most hideous Toyota sedan in history (though the FJ Cruiser is almost as abominable). Edmunds needs to add a little 'horrified' car icon so I can adequately express my views on that... thing.

nippononly

""Right now, many people will go to the Web and sites like Edmunds.com and they'll compare resale values in three years," Lutz said. "And the good news is General Motors in 2006 was the only manufacturer, foreign or domestic, that improved its three-year residual values."

The bad news, Lutz said, is GM is still not competitive with Honda and Toyota."

from:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070108/BUSINESS01/70108022

And hey, I thought VW's residuals went up last year too?

BTW, that article reiterates GM's intention to reduce rental fleet sales by another 100K this year. What with minivan production ceasing, most of that increased fleet cut will be accounted for with just one vehicle and its clones.

62vetteefp

Who is going to supply the rental cars? I guess Chrysler has a whole lot of stock. maybe Ford?

british_rover

Ford is shutting down minivan production as well. They are just ceding the market to Honda/Toyota/DCX

nippononly

Well, Hyundai is picking up right where GM is leaving off, almost seamlessly. But let's not forget DCX, still the fleet king in some areas like midsize sedans and minivans, and GM after all, which still sells the majority of Grand Prixs (and a great many Impalas too) to fleets. As well as a whole bunch of Colorados and Silverados. Thank goodness they have followed the now-traditional path of continuing to build the "Silverado Classic" for a while to protect resale on the brand new model.

Per the most recent numbers I have seen on Automotive News, well over 20% of G6s are going to fleets too. Ford is selling a large proportion of its Foci to fleets, and the new plastic on the nose of the '08 isn't going to change that, I don't think.

The rental fleets probably don't have too much to worry about any time soon. Kia is waiting in the wings as well, and a great many Rios and Optimas end up in rental fleets already. The Koreans will be around to pick up the slack from reduced fleet sales of the domestics for at least the next 5-8 years, I would think.

62vetteefp

Chrysler also says they are not going to sell as many minivans to rentals.

I think what will happen is the lowest cost provider with excess stock will sell to them. Perhaps Kia/Hyundai?

Actually the rentals will have to start paying a bit more and then it will become more profitable for the OEM's to supply them.

nippononly

SAYS that inventory is down to half a million vehicles as of year's end, with "only" 10,000 vehicles "banked" (not accounted for in that figure). But who knows what the reality really is, or where surpluses will materialize in the next few years? I think wherever surplus does turn up, it will be dumped into rental fleets, whether from the Koreans or the domestics. I have no doubt that the Entourage and Sedona will more than make up for the loss of Caravan fleet sales.

Bottom line: I don't expect rental prices to go up for a few years yet. Just look at future prospects for these models: Focus isn't going to be updated until 2010, GP until what, 2009? Colorado, 2009, and as for Silverado, I think this is the one model GM will continue to sell to fleets after production of the classic stops, because it is their highest-volume model. So there, we're talking 2012. Sonata started out the current gen as a rental queen almost right out of the gate, so that will only trend upwards in rental sales. And I don't have a lot of faith that the new Sebring with its underwhelming interior will do much better in retail sales than the last one did, so that will be right back to the rentals, probably.

I hope this is NOT the fate of the '08 Malibu, and am curious to know more about this model. And sit in it, or at least see pics of the inside. The Malibu, of course, has traditionally been a big fleet fave - maybe the '08 will turn that trend around.

62vetteefp

I stated earlier that Toyota and GM now have about the same corporate average fuel economy. Actually it stats that the domestics and the Asian imports have just about crossed paths on corporate fuel economy for both cars and trucks.

In actuality since the domestics sell a higher percentage of trucks the CORPORATE average fuel economy of the domestics will be lower than the Asians.

In 2003 they touched at about 30 (cars). And for trucks at about 21. However they have diverged slightly with the domestics dropping slightly and the Asians rising slightly.

Not quite the perception of the general public.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070106/AUTO01/701060404/-1/A- RCHIVE