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“Who'll buy? Typical: Married, college-educated Avalon or Buick owner in his or her 50s or 60s who doesn't have kids at home.”
My wife and I are damn near 50, both college educated, two kids at home. Weather permitting, our kids go in the back of our 911S Cab. Our “family sedan” is a TL 6-speed. The thought of us buying a Love Boat style Avalon as empty nesters is just plain ugly. Just how "old" do you have to be to think that the Avalon is a ride to aspire to after the kids leave? Dead?? Oh, but wait, Mr. Healey says the Avalon is..:
“Sportier. As a symbol of that, Avalon has what Toyota says is the first dual-exhaust system on any U.S. Toyota sedan. Faux duals, though; a single pipe runs back most of the way and splits into two pipes near the rear of the car. Looks great, though, and shows that Toyota understands the importance of details.”
That's great. :mad: Mr. Healey’s idea of “sportier” is fake dual exhaust tailpipes. He applauds Toyota for “understanding the importance of details” for employing such frivolous crap as FAKE dual exhausts. And I guess I'm "prejudiced" for appreciating the TL's real sport suspension, Brembo brakes and crisp short throw 6-speed. What a loser. :mad:
The point of my previous post wasn’t to discredit Mr. Healey’s tastes (or obvious lack thereof), but rather to challenge his suggestion that part of GM’s failure in the marketplace was tied to a “prejudice and institutional bias” by consumers against GM. Perhaps he should check the definition of prejudice:
“An adverse judgment formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.”
GM doesn't have a problem with consumers who are prejudiced. It has a serious problem with “post-judiced" consumers. GM has put out inferior products for decades; many consumers have gained firsthand knowledge of this fact, and are acting accordingly. Especially the "college educated" ones.
P.S. If GM takes cues from what Mr. Healey applauds as “attention to detail” they will be heading further down the wrong path.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
end quote
The best deal for those driving the heck out of cars, as in many miles per year, is to buy used. A used American make knocks a good 30 to 50% off the price in a matter of a couple to three years. If the car has no resale, but is a reliable as they profess to be, then a three year old car has another good three to seven years in it, even for higher mileage drivers. Take the difference of that half off DTS Caddy, and put it into stocks, or even a C.D. at a bank, and in a matter of a few years, even if the car has a few problems, you will have saved more than half, and be well on the way to help pay for the next car.
Now the cheaper cars, such as the Cobalt, if bought at say $12K may be quite the buy in that used in the two to three year range doesn't really have all that much room lower. In the $20k to $50K range, used seems like a good option. That said, having a new car is a great feeling, and there are other benefits, so to each his or her own. I was just considering that you mentioned driving the wheels off the car, as far as mileage. I use to put lots of miles on, and wish I had bought used only during those years.
GM parts are not going to cost as much as those European, or some of the Japan models, on the average, so that is one plus for buying the domestic cars, especially used.
Loren
And the Vibe GT/Toyota Matrix is severely lacking in the torque and handling department. (at least, to me)
So, there really isn't anything for me coming out of Detroit.
Now I haven't test driven any of the following, so I don't know about their torque and handling, but what about:
- Chevy HHR. Technically, it's a wagon, but provides cargo versatility just like a hatch. Besides, you listed the Mazda 3, which is also technically a wagon.
- Chevy Malibu Maxx. This one is actually a midsize, but can likely be had within your price range. Unless you have to contend with really small parking spaces too.
- Ford Focus ZX3 or ZX5 hatchbacks. They're related to the Mazda 3 and Consumer Reports described them as "fun to drive".
- Chrysler PT Cruiser. I listed the knockoff above, here's the original.
Although I have yet to buy a Detroit made car myself, I wouldn't automatically eliminate them from consideration the next time I go car shopping either.
Actually it's a good idea to get these into rental fleets - an opportunity to change people's opinions. I'd prefer to rent on of these instead of an old fogey La Sabre.
And yes, Buick got the key hole right on this one - clean design inside and out, hope this is the direction for the other brands as well.
Back seat seemed pretty comfy, too. IIRC I could just barely graze my head on the headliner, so it was better than the Impala. The interior seemed decent overall. There's still too much hard plastic, but if its any consolation, it seems like everybody else is going that way too. I'd say an Avalon still has a nicer interior, but it's not leaps and bounds better. If this were a school test and the Avalon got an A, I'd probably give the Lucerne maybe a B. So it's not like the Avalon made the Lucerne look like crap. IMO, GM is at least getting the grains, textures, and colors better, so sometimes you actually have to reach out and touch a surface to realize it's hard and not soft, instead of the old days when the hard plastics just screamed out at you.
And going by the exterior styling, I'd actually prefer the Lucerne! At some angles it actually looks muscular, whereas the Avalon is just kinda lumpy. The Avalon's way ahead in engines though, with its gutsy 3.5 that still returns great fuel economy. I'd imagine you'd have to go with a V-8 in the Lucerne to match the Avalon's performance but then you'd take a big fuel economy hit.
I've looked at the HHR, but it's underpowered for my tastes.
The Maxx is too big for my area. I really do have to contend with small parking spaces.
The Focus... back in 2004, they had the high-performance model in a hatchback... and I'd have seriously considered it. Unfortunately, they only make the high-performance Focus as a sedan now.
And lastly, the PT Cruiser... I keep forgetting about the PT Cruiser for some reason.
I've test driven their 180-hp turbo version. I found that even with the extra power, you really have to floor the accelerator to get any power.
Although, the soon to be released Dodge Caliber is looking mighty good (the R/T version). I'll have to check it out when it's released.
Though, the new VW GTI is looking mighty nice.
:shades:
I have not noticed much difference in fuel consumption in what my 2002 Seville LS uses compared with the 86 Electra T-type, the 1991 Reatta, the 1990 Riviera, or the 1995 supercharged Riviera, or the 1998 Aurora.
If fuel economy is a concern, the 3800 is an excellent engine at any age. Heck, my 1988 Park Ave might look like a "grandpa car" but it sure seems powerful and fast. Must be gobs of torque. It delivers phenomenal fuel economy as does the 3800 in my girlfriend's LaCrosse.
The 3800 is pretty torquey, and it gets a lot of torque real early on, but it might be a bit overmatched in something like the Lucerne. I think an '88 Park Ave might weigh around 3200 lb, while I'd guess the Lucerne V-6 is more like 3700-3800. I think I've heard 0-60 in around 9.5 seconds. That's about what I've heard quoted for my Intrepid, so I could live with it. But I guess I'd just expect more out of something like this, which is supposed to be upscale.
The "fuel economy" of the 3800 is mostly a product of an oversized, low-tune engine and really tall gearing. Put in a 4.10 final gear and tune the V6 to hit its peak hp at 6000 rpm and watch that fuel economy vanish.
Why would anyone want to change its great low torque and good horsepower output at a sensible rpm?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Even with all of GMs improved vehicles, I don't see them making any headway. Toyota is coming on full tilt with the new Camry, RAV4, FJ, etc. While the FJ probably won't hurt GM, the new Rav4 looks like it will be attractive.
AS for the 3800, I still don't get what's so attractive about this engine. A 3.8 powered LeSabre can't out accelerate a Ford 500 (8.8 vs 8.7 for the 500) and actually has slightly slower 45-65 times (6.4 vs 5.7 for the 500) and doesn't get any better real world fuel economy, when compared to an AWD Ford 500 that weighs 300lbs more according to CU. Both got 25mpg overall on CUs 150 mile trip.
BTW, I've spent some time behind the wheel of my wife's 06 500. While it is definitely slow under 30, it is surprisingly responsive at speeds over 40. The CVT trans is awesome. It definitely makes the most of what the underwhelming 3.0 Duratec has offer. It only turns about 1800rpm at 75mph and will instantly allow the engine to turn what ever rpm is needed for power. I can honestly say it has about the same amount of acceleration at 70 as it does at 40, but it is pokey off the line. I don't know if CVTs will become more common or not, but I'll take it over 4speed trans all day long.
Acceleration is certainly relative. While the mags have dogged the 500 for it's acceleration, it feels like a rocket compared to my Suburban. Particularly when under way.
Exterior styling of new Tahoe is nice, but 50K MSRP is ridiculous. Tahoe is supposed to be a utility vehicle and it can't match volume or carrying capacity of mini-vans. If you are not going to tow boat, or horse trailer, mini-van such as Honda, Dodge at least 20K cheaper for same level of equipment. But, some folks worried about their image in driving a mini-van.
I will also wait to see the 07 Expedition. It will have quite a bit of extra towing capacity over the Tahoe, so I'll at least give Ford a look. The 5.4s torque and 6speed in the Expy has my attention, since it will weigh about the same as a Tahoe and be a bit larger.
Lower nose weight and better distribution, for two. Using an old, oversized design also sends the public a message of engineering indolence and antiquation, which is the exact opposite of what GM needs for its long-term survival.
A 285hp direct-injection DOHC 3.6 in the base Lucerne would tell the public that GM could keep pace with the Toyotas and Hyundais of the world, and a FWD version of the 260hp 2.0 turbo direction-injection Ecotec would make the G6 lighter, more agile, and vastly more desirable than it is now.
I wonder what the incentives will be come fall of 07...
yes, but they sold 100,000's of them year after year at that high price. People did pay that amount. Will have to wait ans see what happens now.
Around here they ran huge rebates for all of 2005 on Tahoe's and Suburbans. My local Chevy dealer has had $10k off stickers on these SUVs for a long time. Yesterday's paper had 05 Suburbans listed at up to $15k off. Almost tempting.
If they would have went for sticker w/o incentives, maybe GM wouldn't have lost $8.2 billion for 2005.
No doubt GM loyalists are happy with the 3800 V-6, but an increasing number of buyers want something else, judging by GM's falling sales and market share. If GM continues to build products that appeal primarily to current customers, the corporation will continue its slow slide to oblivion.
The Wall Street Journal recently ran an eye-opening article on GM. It turns out that during the fourth quarter of 2005, an astounding 39 percent of GM's passenger car (not trucks or SUVs) sales were to fleet customers.
Not all fleet sales are bad - the Impala's use by local police forces is good exposure, and judicious use of rental car sales can get new vehicles before the public. But 39 percent of all sales is way too high.
Interestingly, the Buick display at the Washington, D.C., auto show highlighted GM's problems. The Buick LaCrosse and Lucerne were on the floor, and both cars looked good. Workmanship was much improved, and the interior materials used were a step up from past offerings. But the LaCrosse CXS stickered for $32,000+...which is just too much. At $27-28,000, the car is a decent alternative to the Accord and Camry. But at $32,000, it is just not competitive.
The Lucernes on the floor ranged from $26,000 for base model to $33,000 for a V-8 version....which overlaps with the LaCrosse prices ($23-32,000). Most of the LaCrosses on the floor were within those figures. So Buick is selling two cars that compete with each other as much as with the offerings of other manufacturers.
The other problem was highlighted by the new Enclave. It was on display, and looks great. But the woman said that it will be available...in 18 months. Sorry, but Buick and GM need this vehicle NOW.
There was nothing about fleet sales, pricing of newer models, or women talking about Enclaves.
When more car companies enter markets, each of the stakeholders has the potential to lose share, especially if some are strong in those markets as Honda and Toyota are. And your point...?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There was nothing about fleet sales, pricing of newer models, or women talking about Enclaves.
When more car companies enter markets, each of the stakeholders has the potential to lose share, especially if some are strong in those markets as Honda and Toyota are. And...? The original comment was in regard to the 3800 needing to be OHC to be driveable. Let's stay on task.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM cuts jobs, production at Orion factory
Sales for touted Pontiac G6 slip amid intense competition; output will be reduced in April.
Not everything Oprah touches turns to gold.
Lukewarm sales of the new Pontiac G6 sedan, featured by the talk show host in a massive giveaway last year, have prompted General Motors Corp. to cut production of the car beginning in April.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060131/AUTO01/601310373/1148-
I owned a Toyota MR2 from new for 5 years and the remote release broke in year one. You should stop generalizing.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And my post was in response to the refrain of "I sure like mine, I don't see what is the matter!"
I'm glad that you are happy with your vehicle. That is great.
The problem is that every year, a greater number of new car buyers are choosing other options, hence GM's declining sales, huge losses and the threat of bankruptcy.
Whether GM owners like the 3.8 V-6 grows more irrelevant every year. An increasing number of buyers apparently don't, judging the trends in sales figures, market share and profitability for various manufacturers.
GM can't survive by building products that appeal to a dwindling band of owners. It must reach out and attract people who are buying other brands. It is not succeeding in that endeavor.
imidazol97: There was nothing about fleet sales, pricing of newer models, or women talking about Enclaves.
That wasn't directed at you. I just wanted to move the discussion to other topics relevant to GM's current situation, based on what I observed at a major auto show. Perhaps I should have split the post.
Quite frankly, the "GM vehicles are lousy" versus the "I love my GM vehicle, it's the world's greatest" back-and-forth is not only tiresome, but not really relevant to what is happening with GM today.
imidazol97: When more car companies enter markets, each of the stakeholders has the potential to lose share, especially if some are strong in those markets as Honda and Toyota are. And...?
That would be nice, if it were what is happening to GM. But it isn't. Let's take Buick and Pontiac as examples. In 1985, Buick sold 800,000 vehicles - and those were CARS, not SUVs and minivans, and not many went to rental fleets. Pontiac sold just under 800,000 cars.
Fast forward to 2005. Buick barely moved 300,000 cars, minivans and SUVs. Pontiac could barely sell 400,000 cars, trucks and SUVs. And that is with a huge percentage going to fleet customers, and GM offering big incentives just to move the metal.
Oldsmobile, meanwhile, sold 1.1 million cars in 1985. Oldsmobile is now gone, replaced by Saturn, which barely managed to move 300,000 cars, SUVs and minivans. GMC is up, and Chevy trucks have helped make up for the decline in Chevy cars.
So two divisions have literally fallen off a cliff over the last 20 years, and one has disappeared, replaced by a division selling at a much lower rate.
As a whole, GM has not only lost market share over the past 20 years, but also experienced declines in actual sales over the past few years, despite record spending on incentives. That is a serious problem.
imidazol97: Let's stay on task.
I'd rather move the discussion beyond the "GM cars are lousy" (they really aren't) versus the "I love mine" (no good if other buyers don't like what GM is offering) banter. It is not very illuminating.
And that is my privilege to say so. You have several times now always responded that you think otherwise when I've said something positive. I read the first time. No need to continually batter.
I responded about the motor not being a pile of junk. I didn't say GM didn't have lowered sales whether for product, unions, management, competition, more car companies. But all that was all piled on and helped negate my response, which was a simple response about a simple motor which has served well.
On the topic of motors I heard a TL take off from an intersection and it sounded like a small motor running at sewing machine speeds on a PBS show. I listen to the neighbor's 3 Acuras and they have a motorboat sound (3.5RL) and a lawn mower (Integra). I listen to another neighbor's Lexus and it has a sound that's a cross between a 4 cyl iron duke and an older 305 motor. It may just need a new muffler, it's 3 years old or so. But the differences in the sounds of engines is interesting; some sound much more able to supply torque than others.
I note today GM has a different marketing director again. How much can he do to change people's opinions? How much can he change product line. How much can he change unions which had not been working? How much can he change having older workers who represent a higher healthcare cost. How much can he change having many more workers who are retired and many more who will be retiring soon compared to other companies? Maybe GM should just fire everyone and employ those whom they wish to employ to eliminate all the problematic workers.
Perhaps I should have split this post.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think you mean Public Relations Director unless you saw something I did not. Tom has been around about 7 years and was brought in from Chrysler. Replaced Harris who retired and is coming back temporarily untill a new director is found.
Really has nothing to do with product lines, etc.
This is pretty much the only explination we need. Will 2006 styling save GM? No. Nothing will. They are too stodgy and playing by their own "groupthink" rules to possibly change in time.
Somehow I feel no loss. No, really - I shoudl but it's just so "meh" - who cares anymore? Something better will replace them anyways. Perhaps Saturn will finally be let go to do its own thing.
It's interesting about the disconnect between the economy and the large companies.
>No, really - I shoudl but it's just so "meh" - who cares anymore?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Buy a Chevy and this won't happen...
Buy a Chevy and this won't happen...
LOL, I'm tired of the doom and gloom. GM is not a victim, but some of their customers have been (me included). There is a reason people don't want GM products other than everyone is brainwashed and wants to see GM go away.
That said, GM is not going away anytime soon, so there is no need to stock pile food and weapons yet. GM has a product line up that is the best it's had in a long time. This year looks to be critical on which direction GM is heading.
for those saying GM doesn't do anything with hybrids while HoToy do xyz----
I recall in the 70s GM having an electric car. I recall seeing one along the roadside about 25 miles from Dayton where GM plants may have been using it in testing. Guess it ran out of charge.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There were a pair of electric Corvair conversions done in the mid-60s, and the infamous EV-1 debacle of the 1990s. People pick on GM because very little of their efforts make it to the dealership, while you can't swing a dead cat at Toyota without hitting a hybrid something or other.
I wonder what the incentives will be come fall of 07...
The buy one, get one free sale
Loren
Quite the Socialist, aren't you? Your post was a wonderful piece of Soviet Union style propaganda.
And, in addition to state subsidies for GM, perhaps we should also take up arms and blow up Caterpillar, ADM, and a few others? After all, if it wasn't for those companies' success, all of those GM workers would still have been working manual labor farm jobs and we never would have gotten into this damn pickle. :mad:
I'd forgotten the leased EV-1s as a trial. All these trials by GM (and others) lead to data which could be used in designing the cars that have shown up now. The trials were not fruitless.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Getting back to Styling, I saw a new 06 Impala at an angle that showed off the full front and side of the car. I was struck by how out of perportion it seemed. It's over all length appears to make the width of the car look too narrow. Not unlike the look of those stretched K Cars of the 80's the New Yorker and Dodge Dynasty. A check of the dementions in the latest Consumer reports shows this is not just an allusion.
Also saw my first G6 on the road yesterday. Gee, it looks too much like the Buick from the sides! The rear view showed only two chrome emblems on one side of the trunk lid "G6" on the other side "V6" SO ,if I want one I should ask for a G6-V6? Stupid Name! Reminds me of another less than masterful GM-Pontiac re-name the Pontiac 6000LE. Many thought the car was called "GOOOLE" and by the time the public caught on to Pontiac's new numerical model system , the name was gone. How long will the "G" series be around? Sooner or later it will be decided within GM that this was once again a STUPID idea, and if they still have a PONTIAC division they'll go back to names , not numbers. Car Models as numbers or a combination of letters and numbers has been overdone, it don't bring any presitige in and of itself, and switching back and forth only confuses people.How much more would you pay for a Chevette, if it's renamed the Pontiac T1000? Is this what GM wants?Bill C.
Now the 70's were a different story. Suddenly, a 2-ton car that could seat 4 passengers, do 0-60 in 11.5 seconds, AND get 11-12 mpg seemed like a pretty good idea!
I think I remember reading something about that.
Turbine power would be cool. Just think what you could do to a tailgater with the afterburner....