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  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I assume you're talking about the Honda Accord Hybrid. Where are you getting this info from? 25/34 is about what a four-cylinder Accord gets. Honda's brochure indicates that the 2006 Accord Hybrid gets 29/37:

    Automotive News article
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...there's a huge price disparity between a 4-cylinder Accord and a Hybrid Accord. Is it worth it for an extra 4/3 MPG?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    It's not just the 3 or 4 miles per gallon. The hybrid is the top of the line model with the most HP, standard leather, alloys.. the whole deal. Maybe Nav and a moonroof are optional but that's about it.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Better-than-V6 performance for better-than-I4 mileage? Yeah, there are some buyers for that.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    A moonroof is finally standard in 2006 on the Accord Hybrid. It was not available at all in 2005. It still isn't available on the Civic Hybrid.
  • rootwolfrootwolf Member Posts: 1
    2006 Cadillac CTS has 4 express down 2 express up.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    Couldn't remember if it fit the criteria of "under $30k."

    I rarely carry passengers, but often drive around town with the windows down. It's quite handy to be able to briefly hit all four switches (five counting the moonroof) and immediately have both hands back to the steering wheel and/or shifter.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    You need the one button and all 4 windows go down that my friend's Jetta has. Of course both of his fronts fell into the door when the mechanism broke!!!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    I had a 1999 Jetta with the window regulator problem--only happened once, but that was one of many mechanical failures... You had to put the key in the door to lower all four windows unless you got an aftermarket kit that allowed you to do it with the remote. My Altima (I think) lowered the front two by remote, and my BMW lowers all four and opens the sunroof by remote. IIRC, the Volvo V50 I drove lowered the windows by remote, as well. Not sure how many were auto up/down from inside, though.
  • timothyawtimothyaw Member Posts: 148
    But wait, with the hybrid trucks GM is planning to bring out comes with more complex gimmicky stuff. More stuff to break down! If they do it, it sure better be the absolute best quality. I doubt it though. The problems will be there. That's where GM will take the hit, the quality and RELIABILITY of the hybrid.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sunroof is now standard on Hybrid
  • kodenamekodename Member Posts: 141
    Word is that fleet sales were the only thing keeping that 6% from being -3%.
    Reply:
    I just read that at Detroit news. Seems actual market share continued to go DOWN, and the increase was largely fleet sales. Isn't it something the way the numbers get reported and twisted in the Auto business? Reminds me of the Bush presidency. What's wrong,do they think we can't handle the truth or they've been living in 'spin' so long they actually believe what they are saying? Bill C.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    that is like saying that you do not need intermittent wipers, because you can flick them on and off as you please...

    Tilt telescoping sheels without predetermined positions are on cars as cheap as Focus. .there is no excuse for not having them on a 30k car.

    Igor
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    yeah poser buyers that want to boast about it.. US buyers need to realize that Hybrid system is misdesigned marketing hype. The complexity of it, plus the lack of reliability of ANY batteries is just a perfect recipe for disaster... I am waiting for the time when Hbrids will start hitting 100k mileage point... it will be fun to watch the problems.

    US buyers need Diesel engines... we all need diesel engines.. mature - reliable technology, that actually delivers 50+ mileage... TDI would actually be the only reason I would consider a VW...

    Once diesels finally come this or next year, they will take a lot of hybrid sales... and poor GM with their brand new system in the full sized SUV will be weeping again..(not hating on GM.. just stating that they might be coming too late to recoup their R&D costs)

    Hybrid-gasoline engine is just not a good idea... Hybrid-diesel.. is a better one, but it will still be lacking in long term reliability due to its complexity

    Igor
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    The new Buicks that are supposed to be benchmarked on Lexus suffer from the same tilt-wheel issues I mentioned, including the stalk problem. Didn't see any exposed screw heads in the Buicks, though, and the interiors are nice, except the rectangular four-spoke steering wheel on the Lucerne just screams "bland"--the one in the LaCrosse looks more interesting. Both of those cars need five-speed automatics...

    I was really impressed to see a hidden trunk hinge on the new Fusion.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I hate those tilt wheels too, where you have to fumble up underneath for the lever and then when you adjust it, the whole column slides up and down. They're difficult to reach, and not nearly as easy to adjust as those where the actual column is stationary, but just the wheel and a few inches of the column adjust. Okay, so you don't have an infinite number of positions to set it to, but it's easier to control and just doesn't feel as cheap as those others when they clunk into place.

    However, I'm looking at it from a taller driver's perspective. Having that entire column drop down would make the car undriveable for me. Usually in those cars I have to adjust it up as far as it'll go. And with smaller cars I can still bang my knee when going for the brake. A shorter driver might like having the whole column adjust downward, though.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    The NiMH batteries are usually pretty stout so long as they aren't over-discharged. A dead cell out of a hundred shouldn't render the car inoperable, but as the cells die the car's efficiency and power would be sapped. I believe that, should the battery fail entirely twenty years down the road (and it's not worth it to replace it), the hybrid can be driven on its gas engine only (with reduced performance and economy). From what I can tell, the hybrid models that exist today aren't very cost-effective or fun to drive, so I'm not that interested in owning one. In addition to the extra initial cost, many of them require additional compromises (no folding seat in the Accord [I think] or Civic, no sunroof on the Civic or Prius).

    I would rather GM had a Duramax Tahoe in the late stages of development instead of a hybrid one. When we finally get ULSD in the US, I think we will see some of the interesting diesel engines that the rest of the world currently enjoys.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Tilt telescoping sheels without predetermined positions are on cars as cheap as Focus. .there is no excuse for not having them on a 30k car.

    Most of the tilt/tele wheels I have seen are not the same as the GM tilt. GM tilts the wheel and upper column only and you can easily tilt it everytime you get in and out of the vehilce which many users do. Ou do this with a convenient lever on the side of the column. The other tilts actually tilt the entire column and the lever is not as convenient. You tilt once to adjust to your preference and then never touch it again. LaCrosse does have the GM tilt and tele.

    My preference would be the GM tilt/tele, then the GM tilt and then the other tilt/tele design.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I'd rather have the intermittent wipers you mention.

    Those need to be automatic wipers so that people don't have to adjust the settings as drizzle rate changes or spray amount changes while driving. I have automatics on my car. They should be on all cars $20K and up.

    And all cars over $15K should have HUD because it's much safer when you don't have to look down to check your speed. I can look in the windshield on my car out on the ground in front of the car's hood to see my speed.

    Now which I these do you think is more important?
    1. Intermittent wipers
    2. Automatic wipers
    3. HUD
    4. Express rear power windows

    I'll take #2, #3.

    It's all whichever floats your boat or spins your wheels in this case.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • daryll44daryll44 Member Posts: 307
    A good friend of mine has an '03 Seville SLS that has been garage kept and driven lightly. It's exactly 37 months old and has 43000 miles. His true cost was about $40,000. It's now worth $15,500 according to Edmunds and KBB trade-in value on a new STS or DTS. My friend is a loyal Cadillac owner in his late 50s....their perfect customer. I don't blame him, however, for being outraged at the horrendous depreciation. He wants a new one, but I am pointing out that Lexus etc doesn't evaporate value like this. What's going on here? Is there some hidden GM program to keep their loyal customers? Styling means nothing if GM loses their base because of horrendous resale value.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    Is there some hidden GM program to keep their loyal customers?

    Catch one of the rare subsidized leases. If he's trading every three years, he'd be a perfect candidate. In the alternative, find a one-year-old program car and buy that--it's already taken a huge depreciation hit. The last time I looked at the GM auctions, it was pretty easy to find an SLS or Deville, but the STS and DTS were almost non-existant.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    And all cars over $15K should have HUD because it's much safer when you don't have to look down to check your speed.

    If you can't maintain control of your car for the tenth of a second it takes to glance at the speedo, you have no business driving. Also, that HUD is fun until you get a crack in your windshield and your $15k car becomes a $11k car.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    ?????
    The HUD is not "in" the windshield. It reflects off of it.

    The time it takes to put up or down windows while you're looking out the windshield by pressing the button can have the same logic.

    It's clear we have different items we'd pick. Yours are fine; I'm okay with mine.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    ?????
    The HUD is not "in" the windshield. It reflects off of it


    There is a special film in the windshield on HUD cars. A bit more expensive but not that much. Besides usually I carry insurance that covers windshields.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    This kind of styling won't save GM

    They gotta be able to fight this kind of thing.
  • chicagodrive1chicagodrive1 Member Posts: 64
    Good example of tasteless dealer options.

    Thanks for the link. An excellent source car photos at every possible angle (including tire treads), posted by commission hungry salesmen.

    Check out eBay if your tired of the same old marketing approved photos found at some sites. ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Employees live in Company housing, go see company doctors, kids are educated by company owned schools, take company sponsored vacations, with company co-worker friends. Life at Toyota has it's benefits, but I'm not sure if I wanna do everything in my life with my company. Do you ???

    Are you saying that this is how it is in USA Toyota jobs?

    BTW, yes East Germany was a Socialist/Communist part of the Soviet Block. Once Germany reunified they poured tons of money into East Germany to bring up their Socialist standard of living. But they way underestimated the costs. 15 years later they are still paying the price. The East German workers had gotten lazy and weren't working hard; they had little incentive since jobs were guaranteed. These were bad habits that were very traumatic to change.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "We'll move (the) Impala up in class and leave more positioning for (the) Malibu to compete against (the) Accord and Camry,"

    Seems like for about 5 generations of cars the "next model" is going to compete with the Accord and Camry. "It's gonna be a home run"!

    See my post #991.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "The 2008 hybrid Escalade will get a 25 percent gain in fuel economy, meaning the vehicle could get close to 30 mpg on the highway. (per Automotive News)"

    So familiar. 2008. Comfortably far into the future. It's always blue sky that far out, isn't it?

    See my post #991 - How to kill a car company.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    Mileage of 30 mpg in a highway is what a light-weight FWD Escape Hybrid (barely) delivers with a small 4-cylinder. How a 5800-pound Escalade can do that is something I gotta see. Hybrids don't improve much on highways, and the improvement comes from gearing only. So even with a 4-cylinder, an Escalade can't deliever 30 mpg on the highway, unless GM has a magic formula that will make Toyota guys drop their jaws. Anyone with me here?
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Ya know............I really don't ask exactly how much
    he actually got or gets now..............
    But he sometimes gets on a "jag" and talks about it!
    Not to mention most of his savings will be lost if Delphi
    goes BK..............

    I do know my mom gets a stout $1400 a month GM pension
    plus SS so I can only guess what he got/gets now.......

    WOW........If its 1/2 of that..........
    OR if Delphi goes BK and he gets pushed into the govt. run retirement takeover plan. He will get even less! BUMMER!

    He sez he should of stayed the blue collar routine and
    took the golden parachute buyout like my mom and uncles
    did instead of going white collar and transfering with
    Delphi !!!!!!!!!!

    BTW: GM has cut med. bennies, raised deducts./co-pays
    etc.and are pushing the retirees off to Medicare/medicade
    where ever they can to slash expenses.............
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    My thinking... unless GM developed something magical, there is no way 30mpg HWY.... 25city would be amazing, but doable.. but 30 hwy is pure lie IMO.

    Beyond that given that by summer 2008 the prediction is that most automakrs will have diesel offerings in most of their models, I think Hybrid Full Size SUV will sound like a nonsense compared to Diesel full size SUV...

    Igor
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    It's labeled a "Limited Edition." We can hope it's very limited in number.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    There are quite a few variables that go into figuring what your pension would be reduced to through the PBGC. Such as length of employment, and age, etc.

    PBGC Is a good place to look if your interested.

    My FIL had 31 years in at LTV when they went bankrupt. I think his original pension was around $2200 and because he was only 55, his PBGC payout is around 60%.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I've heard 100% pension mentioned for those who have a lot of years in with GM. So I wondered what kind of expense number that was for the company (Delphi and the fund).

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    So even with a 4-cylinder, an Escalade can't deliever 30 mpg on the highway, unless GM has a magic formula that will make Toyota guys drop their jaws. Anyone with me here?

    A diesel-battery-electric Escalade could do it (two electric motors bolted directly to a double-ended pumpkin, and a 2.0 turbodiesel as a onboard electrical supply), but that would require boldness from a company that didn't get where it is now by being even slightly bold.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    Exactly.. Diesel Hybrid is the way to get real improvement in mileage (read todays News at Edmunds about 85mpg Hybrid Diesel Citroen C4) .... As I said previously Hybrid was a patch to ddeliver Diesel level MPG to diesel-less USA... but for much higher price and lower reliability.... if you want 40-50mpg.. go Diesel...the only way Hybrid is justified is in extreme applications like thei Insight, or when coupled with Diesel delivering REALLY an improvement in mileage.

    Igor
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    When the blue collar folks got the buyout.
    They had to have x amt. of years in plus be 55 years old
    to collect the GM $$$$.

    Plus they got x for each year service........
    My mom had 20.
    And believe me SHE was pushing the guys outta line to be
    the 1st to sign the papers to get outta that place......
    CHUCKLE!

    Not quite sure of the exact amounts tho. (15 years ago!)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Delphi Stock is a risk. I'd wait until Feb. 15th since it doesn't look real good. Miller vs. UAW prize fight will be interesting but another sad day for middle america. :sick:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    No about Toyota jobs in Japan. ;)

    The word Socialist where I come also means "Socialism".

    Communistism and Socialism have a (few) similiar quality's but are much different.

    Actually East Germany is one of the biggest technology leaders in Europe from what I've read.

    My 2 cents.

    P.S. fintail I love the STS, but wouldn't wanna own a car that has a non retractible convertible top. It's UGLY !!!

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    My thinking... unless GM developed something magical, there is no way 30mpg HWY.... 25city would be amazing, but doable.. but 30 hwy is pure lie IMO.

    an Escalade can't deliever 30 mpg on the highway, unless GM has a magic formula that will make Toyota guys drop their jaws. Anyone with me here?


    Read an article a while ago that said GM's system is different than the others and will improve highway mileage.

    Anyway it was automotive news estimating the mileage, not GM. They are not talking yet.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think we both read the same article ? ;) -Saw that too

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    So am I (fingers crossed)-> My 3 yr. away to retirement Delphi Father, 2 Delphi/GM retired uncles, 1 GM almost retired uncle, 1 Delphi almost retired uncle, 1 almost retired GM aunt, 1 retired GM grandfather, GM step grandfather whom is dead but my stepgrandmother is still alive and depends on my step-grandfathers pension, Delphi cousin, and many friends, are downright praying for the best.

    My other GM grandfather whom is dead I guess is lucky he never saw the "doom and gloom" (Dubya days) at GM and Delphi. :(

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    (1st part)Well, Delphi wants to cut their jobs, while they last, to about $12 an hour. After a couple of years, though, it raises to about $20+ an hour, guaranteed.
    (2nd part) The more hours you put in, the quicker you get your pay raised. Leave and come back a decade later? No problem - get work within days again.


    The first part I understand. The 2nd part I'm :confuse:

    The first part is clearly wrong on a 3-4% wage increase structured contract which is the average they get now. It would take more than 2 decades or better to even get back to 2006 wages of $26-27 an hour if they start at $12 bucks an hour. I'm not sure where you pulled that one from because that's not even close to the contract has laid out on the table now ????

    Dad was making $13 and an hour as a job setter in 1985

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, the math works this way.
    There are 4-5 pay steps, with 12-14 or so at the bottom, which quickly rises to the $20 range, and then once you become a full journyman, it's comparable to the UAW wages.

    Part 2? Simple - it's not by years but by hours worked. Put in 1000 hours and presto - next pay grade, simple as that. If you want to work 6 days a week at two sites for 10 hours a day, that's not even half a year to get into the $15+ range. People have gone through the program in as little as 3 years, though 4-5 is more common.

    Or you can put in hours on the weekend! Get in a couple of thousand hours over a couple of years, while keeping your GM job. If you work in a machine shop or do electrical work or something simmilar, in a nearly identical union, you can often get them to count that as up to two years. That's how you retrain painlessly. Work in the machine shop at GM? Work as a machinist in a union. Not $26 an hour, but $18-20 to start isn't nearly the kick in the teeth GM will give you at the end of the day.

    It's definately better than Wal-Mart. Sheesh. You'd think nobody ever actually did some serious job searching when times get tough.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 11,277
    Heck, 25 highway would be amazing.

    How about: Baby Duramax diesel with cylinder deactivation powers the rear wheels through a six-speed automatic, there is none of that heavy 4WD hardware, and instead the front wheels are each powered by an electric motor.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I thought you were talking about Delphi Corp. Ok it's cleared up. ;)

    Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    in a motorhome forum, I remember a guy mentioning how he put the drivetrain from a Dodge Ram Cummins Diesel into a 70's Travco 270 motorhome. I think he set it up to be 4wd (well, 6wd in this case, what with the dually rear axle) and supposedly got around 16 mpg on the highway.

    Now what would one of these suckers weigh? Maybe about 5 tons empty? And more, once loaded up for camping? Seems to me that if a rig like this could get 16 mpg, then with a little help from modern technology, something that weighs about half as much and probably cuts through the air more easily should conceivably be able to get 30 if driven conservatively.

    Heck, even those old full sized GM wagons with the Olds Diesel and a 3-speed automatic could get 30 mpg on the highway. They weren't 5800 lb, but were still pretty heavy at around 4200 or so.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    C&D in its March edition is estimating a "real world" all around 20mpg average in the hybrid Tahoe. They state a "25% improvement".
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The new transmissions, which GM said are the first for hybrid passenger vehicles to be designed and built in the United States, will help cut fuel consumption on large SUVs by at least 25 percent, GM said. Currently, most
    of the hybrid vehicles sold in the United States are designed and built in
    Asia.


    Just read this in another article. Automotive News took this and got the 30 highway. Hey, if it got 20 average that would be great. My minivan only gets about 16 average but is mostly short city dirves.

    GM said its two-mode hybrid system, unlike the gas and electric engines found in the Toyota Prius and other hybrids now, provides improved fuel economy in stop-and-go driving and at highway speeds.

    "We believe the two-mode system will become the industry standard," Wagoner said to workers at a presentation at GM's Baltimore transmission facility, where GM already builds a hybrid transmission for a small fleet of
    heavy-duty trucks and buses.

    GM's hybrid system will use two electric motors – one to power the vehicle at low speeds with light loads and the other to assist during highway speeds and while towing or on steep hills.
    "This is a competitive advantage for GM now because they're the only company that can use a hybrid system in a full-size SUV," Pratt says. "From that perspective, it's also their most profitable segment, so they're
    beating Toyota to the punch in the full-size SUV segment."

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060202/AUTO01/602020339/1148- /AUTO01
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