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The fact is that GM and Ford are doomed to extinction, and while it's going to be tough, THAT'S THE WAY IT IS IN A CAPATALIST SYSTEM. You compete and grow or your stagnate and die. The only problem is really all of the GM workers who won't decide to jump ship or retrain until it's too late. I'll feel sorry for them, but well, THAT'S THE WAY...(you can finish the rest)
P.S. What rises out of the ashes is *always* better. The only time you really have to worry is when an entire industry shuts down, and last I checked, GM isn't the only company making cars in the U.S.
Unless hybrids really come down in price, or diesel fuel becomes cheaper and gives better performance, we are "stuck" with conventional gasoline engines- but I've read that most gasoline engines in cars are less than 30% efficient- so much of the energy is lost as heat, noise, etc- maybe if they can get the efficiency up to 45% or higher, we could still get roomy and powerful vehicles instead of these radical changes.
I think GM had a turbine truck concept back in the late 50's or early 60's. And maybe a turbine locomotive, too.
Railroad turbines have been tried a few times, but unless you can minimize the idle time the fuel costs will kill you. About the only successful ones were Union Pacific's gas turbines of the 1950s and 60s that ran on Bunker C oil (think tar), and that mostly because Bunker C was cheap enough then to be worth the trouble. Railroad locomotives these days are almost entirely turbodiesel engines with electric transmissions.
Just throw a little molasses into the exhaust and that tailgater has the equivalent of a year's worth of mosquito smear on his windshield!!! Throw in heavy oil and he's got soot!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What it takes for turnaround will be union concessions in the political atmosphere we have now. Can you say "Patco" and "Reagan"?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Word is that fleet sales were the only thing keeping that 6% from being -3%.
Oh, I don't know if this is a sign of the times, but a few weeks ago, I went with a buddy to look at cars. We looked at a Nissan Xterra and a Chevy Equinox. My friend was just in the looking stages at this point...he's probably not going to actually buy until May, but he's got the Xterra on the brain so bad that I figured he should at least go sit in it and drive it to see if he really likes it or not.
Well, he left his contact info and got a business card from each of the salesmen. The Nissan guy never called back at all, while the Chevy guy must've called back like 5 or 6 times! Guess Chevy must need the business! :P **
** Okay, disclaimer time here. I think the reason the Chevy guy called back so many times is because my buddy really showed a genuine interest in the Equinox. We had driven the Xterra first. I knew my friend liked the 'Nox, so I figured we'd go check it out. Frankly, I was expecting it to be a piece of crap and end up coming off so bad that it would send my friend, kicking and screaming, back to the Xterra. But it didn't! In fact, it was nice enough that my buddy had a hard time choosing between the two. I know the Xterra and Equinox really aren't direct competitors, but that's the two my buddy was most interested in.
After a few days though, my friend started to sway back towards the Xterra.
Oh, and if anybody's interested, the last time I talked to that Chevy guy, they were offering a $2500 rebate on full-sized pickups! Get 'em while they last!
The line up would look like:
Subcompact: need to work on this one
Compact: Pontiac G6
Family Car: Buick La Crosse
Big Family Car: Buick Lucerne
Roadster: Saturn Sky
Affordable Sports Car: wait for Camaro
Expensive Sports Car: Chevy Corvette
Mini-SUV: Chevy Equinox or Saturn VUE
SUV: GMC Envoy
Big SUV: GMC Yukon or Chevy Tahoe
Minivan: need to work on this one
Trucks: GMC
Entry Luxury Sedan: Cadillac CTS
Performance Luxury Sedan: Cadillac STS
Flagship Luxury Sedan: Cadillac DTS (with more refinement)
Luxury SUV: Hummer H2 (with more refinement)
The Pontiac Aztec could serve as service loaners for the dealerships.
---------
If they take their best and ditch the rest they can focus resources on improving the line-up.
Right now, it's Pontiac G6, Chevy Cobalt, Saturn ION versus Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic. In this case, strength in numbers is not working, maybe for Avis versus Dollar Rental...
If you can't retrain and are so locked into one job that you are useless otherwise, then you have bigger problems. You should be retraining NOW while there's at least a paycheck coming in.
Sorry, the U.S. isn't Germany. Life IS that rough, and whining about it won't change the fact - they either retrain or not - their choice.
P.S. The IBEW starts at $11.something an hour for apprentices. Tons of work and one membership is good nationwide.
No excuse. Time to make that parachute, because the engines are running out of fuel and its going to be a quick crash once it stops running.
I'm a Generation X-er and know exactly what you are talking about. I work with a bunch of people whom went back to school to get that golden degree because they dislike what they are doing. Well unless they wanna take a $30-40K pay cut they will continue what they are doing now
Rocky
This is the strength of our society. There are no more blacksmiths. Top hat makers are mostly gone. I wonder where the Pickett company (top manufacturer in slide rules) went? What about typewriter companies?
Change happens. The market is competitive. This is a very good thing, as it strengthens our economy. Local disruptions are tough on some workers. But the alternative is stagnation. Look at the mess East Germany was in after a generation of Socialism.
Many aerospace engineers lost their jobs in the 90's. Many computer professionals lost jobs when the internet bubble burst. Years later, almost everybody is doing OK, and the country is better for it.
GM and Ford have made many stupid decisions, much of them management mistakes. But the UAW is significantly responsible for the mess, too. Their wages are too high for the work being done. As has been posted in other threads, the Unionized American makers are exporting jobs to Mexico and other countries to save money. The non-unionized Japanese and Korean nameplates are HIRING AMERICANS in the homeland. The issue is that since the Big 2.5 are shackled by the unions, their option to be competitive is to outsource much of the work to other countries. It is a very rational business decision.
Rocky
-The answer of it not being a Grand Prix would be easy for most consumers.
The fact remains is this- The UAW doesn't design or engineer cars. They (workers) build em' !!!!
-The CEO's pay scales of the Koreans, Japanese, Germans are not even close to being as lavish as that of their American counterparts.
- I don't support capatalism or globalization because the standard of living in the united states is going down for your average citizen. With a $209 gas bill to just heat my home last month at 68-72 degrees makes the hardship much greater, and that is in a very unseasonably warm winter which we've enjoyed so far.
I am not trying be a doom and gloomer but with GM, Ford, laying off 60,000 good paying jobs togeather is a cold hard fact at the current state of manufactoring. 4.6 million new jobs the President has created aren't good paying jobs as Mr. Lou Dobbs has explained. Wally World type service jobs are the biggest growth area.
- I guess some in this forum are doing great in their careers and have a secure job (which includes myself) which I'm happy for ya'll too. I however am not living in a bubble and can see what alot of good folks are being faced with and that includes the good citizens of New Orleans that might not have a city to return too anytime soon :sick:
Thanx
Rocky
Then that's their choice.
Should a worker let his family starve while he goes to school to retrain for a new occupation that may or may not be there when he graduates?
Should they stay in a dead-end job hoping the job will be there forever?
It's called NIGHT SCHOOL. Nobody has to starve. It's just hard work. Hell, I worked >30 hrs/week during my 5 years of undergraduate work. Nobody starved.
I think any childless single young guy working on a GM line can and should, but what about the older guys with family obligations?
See above, everybody sacrifices at times. This post comes across to me as justification for continued laziness, which is the problem with many of these workers in the first place.... turn a wrench for a high salary. Get paid not to work if the job disappears. So what if a business needs to be profitable?
What career path should our young lineworker consider? Computers? Last time I looked, entry-level IT jobs were being outsourced to places like China and India. College isn't the silver bullet it used to be.
Statistics show EXACTLY the opposite. Without college salaries are much lower and unemployment is much higher. Not going to college is a CHOICE these people made.
A lot of kids are coming out of college with a ton of student loan debt and no prospects but low-wage work.
Their prospects are much better than being a unionized auto worker. There are no guarantees in life, risk is everywhere. People need to deal with it.
"To just deal with it" isn't a reasonable solution to the problem. The high paying union auto jobs don't exist anymore for the new worker. They are simply a thing of the past. So your solution is going back to school and racking up close to $80K in college loans to get a masters ???? I guess that includes selling the kids on e-bay since he/she won't beable to support them with having everyday bills and just getting bye :P
It's a easy answer to a young single person with no obligations and was the point Lemko was trying to make. Age discrimination is a real factor older workers do face.
Rocky
-Rocky
Duramax 09' Carmaro ? :P
Rocky
"Slice and Dice" a bit more from that unemployed autoworker. :P
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11133732/
The non-unionized Japanese and Korean nameplates are HIRING AMERICANS in the homeland :confuse: Last time I checked Toyota in Japan was unionized. So were the Korean car company's .....I do know in the 90's Toyota had unions.
1990's Working for Toyota-> In Toyota City, Japan.
The workers work their butts off but enjoy many luxuries.
A few of them I know off the top of my head.
-Employees live in Company housing, go see company doctors, kids are educated by company owned schools, take company sponsored vacations, with company co-worker friends. Life at Toyota has it's benefits, but I'm not sure if I wanna do everything in my life with my company. Do you ???
Rocky
I just wished they had a few more gadgets on em' and as time goes on I'm sure they will.
P.S. I guess I'm starting to sound more like Loren. :P
Rocky
Wishful thinking.
My grandparents - and perhaps yours - endured a trans-Atlantic boat ride from Europe (Poland and Germany) in order to get an opportunity. There were no guarantees. They learned to speak and read English on their own. They worked their asses off and didn't look for handouts - whether from the government or the companies they worked for.
I won't bore you with my personal situation, but master's degree notwithstanding, it didn't protect me from a corporate downsizing. Yet I never put the blame on someone else. Anybody - and I mean anybody - that has earned the equivalent of what a legacy UAW worker makes and thinks they can sit back and not have to worry about the business and marketplace failures of the company they work for - is in for the rude awakening. At GM, the handwriting was on the wall decades ago.
You make your own future.
I think they were copied by the German company and run out of business by Keuffel und Esser.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"We'll move (the) Impala up in class and leave more positioning for (the) Malibu to compete against (the) Accord and Camry," he says, noting the strategy is similar to what Chevrolet did with the Aveo and Cobalt.
Sounds like a RWD Impala is coming?
That being said though, most $11/hour jobs aren't meant to support a non-working wife and two kids and have a nice suburban lifestyle. Those types of jobs are considered entry-level, and hopefully you'll get raises and promotions as time goes by, and move up the corporate ladder.
Now maybe there are parts of the country where you could make it on $11 per hour, but certainly not around here. I made $10.50 per hour, and was full-time with benefits when I bought my condo back in late 1994, but I still had to keep the part time job to do it. Plus I had a roommate who paid me $250 per month plus 1/2 of the electric. And still it was rough.
I remember when I worked at the department store, I discovered that this one sweet little old lady in Giftwrapping, who had worked in the store since 1967, was actually making less than me! :surprise: That really made me sick!
That leaves him about $661 for everything else. A car payment is certainly out of the question. Car insurance in Philly? Fuhgeddaboutit! Now, he could get a beater and drive with no insurance and take his chances. Heat? Well, a good space heater and a parka and a lot of blankets, he should be OK as long as its a mild winter and there's no risk of the pipes freezing. Food? Well, there's Sav-A-Lot. Cable? Fuhgeddaboutit! Electric? Maybe enough to power his small B&W TV, refrigerator, and a lamp. Credit Cards?ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Girlfriend? Are you kidding me? So, that $11 an hour job leaves our friend just about broke, cold, and lonely.
What can our friend do? Well, he can get another crap job so he might be able to turn on the heat, pay insurance on his beater ride, and get a six-pack and pizza from time to time. Girlfriend? Fuhgeddaboutit! Our boy is working too much to meet anybody!
My Delphi (boss-white collar) retired uncle has seen his
pension cut in more than 1/2. Not to mention if they DO
go BK all his Delphi stock will be worthless..........
My mom and other family members are safe (for now) because they took the GM "golden parachute" buyout when our local
plant closed in the early 90s.
The only thing they and I are sweating is our personal
Delphi stock (that we got from the Delphi spinoff)
will also be worthless if the BK happens.............
I am still willing to BUY some Delphi stock for
pennies on the dollar and hope they rise again!
I did that back in 79 with Chrysler stock and
still have a HANDSOME DCX $$$$ if and when I sell.
I don't think the gov't will bail them out as they
did with Chrysler tho.....................
This is the stark reality of non-union white or blue collar employment in this country. Jobs Banks, pensions . . . heck, the majority of workers today don't have coporate pensions, let alone something as unbelievably cushy as the Jobs Bank program. Altough losing one's job is terribly painful as I can personally attest, how can any global corporation today compete when they're paying people almost their full salary NOT to work. Amazing . . .
Unless one has a trade, skill, or an applicable college degree, the wage reality for the average person is around $10 to $12 an hour - unless you're very lucky. For Rocky, the bottom line is this: at these wages, you don't buy a house - you rent, as many lower wage earners do in this country.
UAW workers have been isolated from reality for so long, it's now an unimaginable shock to have to deal with the reality of the job market.
****
Well, Delphi wants to cut their jobs, while they last, to about $12 an hour. After a couple of years, though, it raises to about $20+ an hour, guaranteed. The more hours you put in, the quicker you get your pay raised. Leave and come back a decade later? No problem - get work within days again.
And the IBEW isn't the only real union out there. I mentioned it, though, since electrical and construction work pays about the same as auto work in the end and has one piece of job security as well - the work has to be done locally, rain or shine. Also, all commercial A/V installations as of last year are required to go through the union. They have a great low-voltage/av/alarm/etc section as well. Maxxes out at $26-28 an hour, last I checked. And it's never going to go down in pay. Superb medical and pension as well. IMPOSSIBLE TO OUTSOURCE LIKE FACTORY JOBS.
It also doesn't require tons of training or an IQ of 150+. Just good mechanical and logical skills, which auto workers are as a rule, pretty good at.
Then there's construction. Last I checked, they are putting up homes and offices as fast as they can. Not glamorous work, but it's pretty decent nonetheless, and $50K a year+ is easy to accomplish in a couple of years. More if you become a foreman or get a contractor's license.
Well, that's my thinking. If Delphi is going to cut them off at the ankles, then perhaps they should work someplace that at least ensures them a better future for that $12 to start.
I find this amazing. Does this bring the Large truck back into some folks garages? Anyone know what the upcharge will be for the Hybrid stuff? A base Tahoe is $34,000.
As a side the new 2006 Honda Hybrid travels 25 miles per gallon of gasoline in city driving, down from 27 mpg in 2005, and 34 mpg on the highway, down from 37 mpg. The highway number of 34 is sure not that far off from the huge SUV's 30. It will start at $31,000.
Can you tell us about his pension? What did it used to be and what benefits come with it?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This is more proof that GM is providing better, more real-world solutions to fuel economy than the imports. GM needs to capitalize on this!
And they expect mileage to drop 20-40% as a result, even though nothing has changed with the car. They just are finally being more realistic, since auto manufacturers can't legally put anything but the EPA ratings on the window, even if they know they are wrong(Pruis is a perfect example - Totoya knew it only got about 45mpg but had their hands tied)
P.S.
http://www.ibew.org/union/it_pays_to_be_union.htm
Govt statistics. IBEW workers, for instance, make a decent enough wage - about $3-4K a month, which isn't starving. The problem with the auto workers isn't their skills so much as they joined the wrong union. UAW? Plants can be moved, limited number of places to work at - too consolidated and top-heavy.
Construction? Can't be outsourced. Work is always available locally. Broad power-base with huge power in the hands of the workers. Plus, when was the last time you even heard of a construction union in the news? Most don't even bother with PACs, since the local chapters handle everything and the national office(s) take care of that - there is a total disconnect and a level between the workers and upper management. As it should be.
Lastly, my brother-in-law? Did construction. Made his own "white collar job" after about 5-6 years by getting his contractor's license. His choice, and if he wanted to shut his business and walk into the local union hall, he could have that to fall back on as well.
My father? Put fifteen years in the IBEW. Was a college professor before that and wasn't making enough money. Now he's teaching again(economics shifted again), but with two pensions in a couple of years to look forward to. Can the UAW workers even be guaranteed a pension? Is there a backdoor or path towards self-employment like a contractor's license?
Last I checked, I didn't see any poor and out of work auto mechanics, either. Very unglamorous work to be sure, but you won't starve doing it, and GOD WE LOVE CARS. There's always a car that needs fixing. Certified mechanics are also in great demand.
Or they could whine and take the $12 an hour GM wants to pay them. Their choice.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I did like the overall dash layout and the new radio. At $30k for a sedan, however, I expect the above features plus laser-cut keys and four auto up-down windows.
Honda Accord Hybrid
The 2006 Accord Hybrid is not yet listed on the EPA website. It's not a good comparison, as the $31k Accord includes a lot of luxury features that aren't standard on the $34k Tahoe.
The highest gains on hybrids usually come in city mileage. I doubt you will see 30 MPG highway on a vehicle that weighs over 5500 pounds--maybe if they made a diesel hybrid.
If "infinitely adjustable tilt-and-telescoping part." means the Fusion/500's tilt wheel-didn't like it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Prius (and I think the new Lexus cars) plus many others now have fobs that you insert straight into the dash, or keyless go systems, and I think the new Nissan Micra will have some sort of keyless go system available, so it's becoming mainstream, making GM two generations behind.
I didn't check out the Fusion's tilt wheel, I just know that every time I get in a GM product, I notice the wheel that just sort of clunks into one of six predetermined positions and doesn't have a telescoping feature.
As for the tilt wheel, when I adjusted those wheels down the huge tunnel for the column was close to my knees and thighs. That was strange. I like being able to click the wheel up and down while retaining the height of the end of the column in front of me. I can telescope forward and back with my 10 way power seat or whatever modes it has.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,