General Motors discussions

igor2

GM and Ford will not merge... Ford has no incentive to do so... FoMoCo is profitable and doing just dandy worldwide.

There is no way Hyu/Kia can increase sales witout hurting the Big 3... Right now THE direct competitor to Fusion is sonata... both are great cars, but have handicap of not good make image... so they fight CamCord with lower prices and higher features.

I believe Hyu/Kia will slow down Hoyota, but unless GM and Ford manage to keep on at least at their level, they will be the ones overrun.. Right now the dent to CamCord sales by Sonata and Fusion is minimal, but if Ford and Hyu/Kia manage to hold the momentum to the next generation, they will be a real equal contenders to CamCord...one more generation.. 4-5 years...

GM is missing the boat right now though.. is the G6 doing OK? But even so, Chevy needs a competitive mainstream midsize sedan compating directly with CamCord.

Igor

m1miata

More HP
Better quality interior
Fresh styling
better gas mileage

Cobalt loses

Maybe a Mazda3 would have a better chance of competing with the Civic.

Loren

rockylee

Hoyota: Oh My GAWD that's funny :P I do believe they can and will hold their current market share while the asians duke it out. It's kinda going to be like a U.S. vs. Russia cold war era thing. Only instead of it being one on one, it will be Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, among the other lower Japanese players. Look at Hyundai. They aren't trying to go after GM with Full Size Utes. Nope they are going straight for the kill. They are going after the meat and potatoes of Honda and Toyota. GM will build G6's, Camaro's, Lucernes, Escalades, etc etc Ford will build F-150's, Mustangs, Explorers, etc etc, Chrysler will build 300's, Chargers, Jeeps, etc etc that will keep the Big 3 afloat while the asians, and Indians choke their cash coffers with R&D. Wagoner, Bill Ford, Zietche, will probably go sit up in the high towers in Detroit with Uncle Roger and drink Martini's and smoke Cigars and laugh how bad it was for them in the 80's, 90's, early 2000's

Rocky

m1miata

You are right, GM & Ford will not merge. Well one hopes not. Every merger of two weakened companies to hopefully become whole again has ended in failure in around 3 to 5 years.

As for Hyundai, it is hard to tell how much market it will take from the competition. So far the Sonata and SUVs seem to be popular, and have to be taking away sales of Accord (poor man's Accord?) and the Fusion. They are now up to speed for quality, so I don't know why anyone would consider China cars as competition, unless you consider the cheapest Hyundai - could be.

As for GM, they would be better off going the direction of Chrysler in building specialty product and give up on trying to out-pace Asian car lines. GM's best are those unlike the Asian cars. I think Toyota knows best how to build the perfect Camry or Corolla, and likewise the Honda's Accord/Civic. The Corvair never unseated VW from it's throne. Now a really fine RWD Nova would be cool compared to an Accord FWD.

Loren

rockylee

Dubya Days is a sarcastic remark about president Bush, when he told Bill Ford and Rick Wagoner to make better cars to solve there problems.

They told him we can't compete unless you even up the playing field even if we make better cars. The Japanese don't have legacy costs, get huge tax breaks for building some plants here, etc etc was said to President Bush. He told them they need to honor their pension obligations and make better cars. The UAW even said Bill Ford and Rick Wagoner had every right to complain since they know it's currently impossible to compete with labor pools making $2 an hour and below. Bill and Rick already have spoken about the Chinese, and India made car. Their only hope will be it directly impacts Toyota, Honda, Nissan at first. Perhaps a different administration will help american manufactoring out ?????

Rocky

rockylee

Well Loren imagine a Chinese Camcord made with Hoyota quality @ lets say $10-15K ???? The Chinese work cents an hour, not a dollar and would love to get their hands on some more American green backs. I forget the guys name but he is rich and is investing his personal capita in China. He said selling new cars at $4-8K isn't unrealistic and had a goal of selling either 1 or 2 million cars a year in the U.S.

The Chinese could make a better made camcord alot cheaper ! I do agree that the Big 3 could have there own club if the Chinese don't get to good at building cars and at that time their are still american loyalist like myself left. :surprise:

Rocky

rockylee

GM better drop in a little more Juice for the new Aura. The 268 hp. Camary looks tough. I figure the Aura will need atleast 270 hp. to compete with the Camary. 300 would be better since it could also take on the TL too.

Rocky

irnmdn

I figure the Aura will need at least 270 hp. to compete with the Camary. 300 would be better since it could also take on the TL too.
Pimpala with 303 Hp is not able to take on five-years-old outgoing Camry, what makes you think Aura is going to be any different? Saturn has as much prestige as Hyundai these days. The best they can hope is give some competition for Sonata.

toyotatom

How do I get them? There is a small black diagnosis box on top of the engine. Not sure where to go from here. Many thanks if you can help.

ToyotaTom

rockylee

Actually I agree that Saturn Aura doesn't have the image of toyota camry yet. Hyundai Sonata is in the rearview mirror of the Camry. I disagree with your pimpala statement. The new Impala is much nicer than the last generation and anyone buying a loaded camry over a SS Impala would be an idiot in my opinion. The interior fit and finish are about spot on. Both get similar gas mileage when the Camry is Equiped with a V-6. However the Camry will remain #1 until the American public looks at the competition once again which includes Hyundai.

never new the new Impala was pimped ?

Rocky

rockylee

197 hp. for the Coup Si is more than 205 or 210 hp for the cobalt SS ?????

Better quality interior. Where ? Ok it has fresh styling that looks about the same as the last generation.

A little better gas mileage. Check in the box for the Civic.

I'll take the fuel trade-off to have a car with some torque and power. The 0-60 in 6.7 seconds (Civic) which is very liberal (remember MT staff figures) isn't very impressive for a performance coupe Even the biased MT staff did a run of 0-60 on the Cobalt of 6.1. Other car mags I've seen it as low as 5.8 :P Handling numbers go to the Civic.

Wheres the leather interior on the Civic Si ?????
This isn't a standard feature ???? OH MY GAWD if GM attempted such a feat on a top trim level they would get bashed like a scrambled egg.

Rocky

62vetteefp

But even so, Chevy needs a competitive mainstream midsize sedan compating directly with CamCord.

For january:
Cobalt.....17,513
Corolla....15,600
Civic......25,000
In January Cobalt outsold Corolla (when is it getting replaced?) Civic outsold Cobalt.

Malibu.....18,500
Impala.....21,650
G6.........15,340
Camry......27,440
Accord.....22,050

In the midsize market the Impala was neck and neck with the Accord. Combined midsize Malibu/Impala sold 40,000 outselling the Camry and Accord.

imidazol97

>Japanese don't have legacy costs, get huge tax breaks for building some plants here,

Also add on the undervalued currency for Japan (and China) that make their cars cheaper here. This has been a game since the Carter era. It's not just a W thing.

igor2

This is a very good point... TOP OF THE LINE CAMRY. the ting is NO ONE BUYS TOP OF THE LINE CAMRY...

everyone complains about the lack of power of the V6 in the Fusion compared to say Accord and the new Camry, but truth is, about 70% of Camry's sold i nthe USA are with the 4banger... that is why Impala is not going to make a dent. That is why Aura does not need to have 270hp..

the HP wars are about prestige, but the projected sales of 220k for the Fusion family this year can s how yo uthat you do not need the most powerful v6 in a midsize to compete.. after all a regular run of the mill buyer is going ofr the I4 anyways.

Igor

torque_r

"For january:
Cobalt.....17,513
Corolla....15,600
Civic......25,000
In January Cobalt outsold Corolla (when is it getting replaced?) Civic outsold Cobalt"

Just a little correction. Corolla sold 24,880, up 3% from last year's january.

igor2

not to be mean.. anyone has an estimate how much of cobalt sales wwent to fleets?

Focus is holding steady at 12k in january, but it is probably mostly fleets...

Igor

62vetteefp

Just a little correction. Corolla sold 24,880, up 3% from last year's january

Where are you getting your data? Per Automotive News:15,609 including imports. Last year they sold 16,379. Do you have a better source? 10,000 units is a huge error somewhere.

andre1969

I always refer to Autosite for sales stats. Here's a link for sedan sales in January: http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

According to them the Corolla's at 24,887. In January '05 they sold 24,174.

kodename

Has the GM board of Directors started to wake up and smell the coffee? Wage cuts ,dividend cuts,and medical coverage freezes have all been announced. "Poor" old Rick Waggoners wage has been cut. He'll now only be paid $1.1 million for his lack of leadership.I doubt his benefit package was touched.Even grumpy Know-It-All Lutz will have a wage cut, or so it's been anounced. These are all steps that could have made a difference 5 years ago. Today , it matters very little. GM's products just are not what the buying public are asking for. You can (and should) cut costs, but who's going to buy their stuff? Too many areas of the GM structure are out of place to save it from itself.I've read where GM actually has the same number of dealerships today that it had during the mid 1950's when they held a 50+ % market share. IF true, too many dealers selling too few cars spells doom for GMs retail structure.They (GM) can't afford another Oldsmobile type buy-out, they are stuck. It has reached the point where a GM badge is a pox on anything it builds. Bill C.

andre1969

a lot of GM dealers these days are paired up with another non-GM brand. For instance, I bought my Intrepid at a Chevy/Dodge dealership. There used to be a Pontiac/Dodge dealership up the street from me, but now I think it's Dodge/Chrysler.

It's also common for many GM dealerships to carry more than one GM brand, as well, so it's not like there's a whole slew of stand-alone Chevy, Pontiac, or Buick dealers. Or if there is, chances are it's part of a dealer group.

Once you factor in trucks, GM probably sells about as many vehicles today than it did in the 1950's.

62vetteefp

Well, who do we believe. Awful big difference. I will say the smaller number is much closer to last years volume.

rockylee

GM needs to make a conservative car like the Camry. Perhaps a redo of the Malibu will help ? The G-6 perhaps needs a Ecotec 4 w/ a hybrid motor ????
The next generation Impala is going RWD and probably won't be a competitor anymore.

Rocky

carlisimo

No leather in the Civic Si mostly because that's the role of the RSX-S. It's the only thing the RSX-S has going for it anymore...

But it's also because... who wants leather in a car like that? We want Recaros, and we want them grippy. It's a problem that the Cobalt SS has leather seats. For fat people. Maybe it doesn't need to have grippy seats because no one's going to have fun throwing the car into corners, as heavy as it feels and as numb as the steering is.

62vetteefp

GM needs to make a conservative car like the Camry. Perhaps a redo of the Malibu will help ?

How much more conservative can the Malibu and Impala get?

torque_r

62vetteefp, it's simple. The number you have got is probably for the Toyota Corolla sedan. The offical numbers (from Toyota press releases) always include the Toyota Corolla Matrix, just like the numbers for the Cobalt include the coupe and SS models.
I have to say though that if that's the case, it's impressive for the Matrix to sell 9,000 a month. That's head to head with the PT Cruiser.

igor2

1) RSX is being romored to be killed soon.. and simply replaced by a coupe of TSX - they share the engine anyways

2) I believe Honda did make a mistake by not offering upscale options like Leather, HID's etc on the Civic.. it loses miserably to the mazda3.. For people that really like compacts, but can afford the luxurues, Civic falls short, because it lacks top end features. This is my case: I have Mazda3 with everythign but the leather and Navi... this includes al lthe airbags and breake electronics, HID's, TPMS, etc.... Civic does not offer that.

3) Leather needs to be an option on each car above B segment.. even the Recaros are sold in Leather (Focus SVT EAP anyone)... and they grip nicely...

Igor

igor2

OK when we talk about numbers... I am in desperate need for Camry and Accord sales split by body style.. I think it is ridiculous that Camry includes Solara models... and I have abet for $5 on another forum that sedan-for-sedan Camry is not as dominating as the "official" (read manipulated) numbers try to tell us.

Igor

andre1969

Well, if it's any consolation, the Accord does offer a coupe model, so just think of the Solara as a Camry coupe. Now the Solara convertible does give the Camry an edge in body styles, but I doubt they sell very many.

Now if you want a real scam, the Matrix is included in with Corolla sales, which might seem unfair to the Civic. But then, the Civic offers a coupe model, which the Corolla doesn't have.

Anyway, if I were to take a wild guess, I'd say that about 15-20% of Camry and Accord sales are coupes.

martian

GM has bitten the bullet-50% dividend cut (with a consequent drop in stock price). Executive compensation will be cut. But is this enough? MY GUESS IS THAT kIRK kERKORIAN (9.9% OWNER) will start dictating to the GM management. More ominous-GM is starting to sell off GMAC (which has kept the whole rickety mess going)! Hard to see where the profits will come from, unless GM suddenly regains 60% market share!

rockylee

The malibu just needs a redo in fit and finish. Then it could be a nice competitor to the camcord.

Rocky

62vetteefp

62vetteefp, it's simple. The number you have got is probably for the Toyota Corolla sedan. The offical numbers (from Toyota press releases) always include the Toyota Corolla Matrix, just like the numbers for the Cobalt include the coupe and SS models.
I have to say though that if that's the case, it's impressive for the Matrix to sell 9,000 a month. That's head to head with the PT Cruiser.

Yep, my number is only for the Corolla. The matrix is separate and sold 9300. So my initial numbers stand. The Vibe, which I feel is better looking than the Matrix, sold 2700. The HHR sold 8600 which is separate than the Cobalt. So the Cobalt outsold the Corolla for January. And that does not count it's station wagon HHR brother.

rockylee

Yes I will agree Mr. Peanut is probably the worst president we ever had in this nations history. :surprise:

Rocky

rockylee

So that = 26% of the market according to Angus Mckenzie of Motor Trend that said GM is starting the new year on the right foot with the majority of the market share.

Rocky

fintail

Speaking of styling and saving GM...has any recent car aged as fast as the current Grand Prix? I remember this thing was really hyped when it came out...

rockylee

The FWD is hurting it badly. The interior fit and finish isn't helping things since it's looked at as being to plasticky. The G8 is it's replacement and needs to be launched atleast by next spring to help recover lost market share.

Rocky

sls002

I am not sure what the G8 is supposed to be. However, Motor Trend's latest issue suggests that the GTO (Zeta platform) is dead. The Camaro concept is probably the next GTO. RWD will probably be some sort of modified Holden platform, but not the original Zeta. The G8 will probably be a RWD based on the Camaro platform, as will the Impala. This new platform will not appear before something like 2010. GM's chapter 7 bankruptcy will take place by then.

kodename

GM for years build less than class leading products.As a vehicle became so tainted,,GM would do a simple remake and change the name(Cavalier to Cobalt is but one example)The public long ago wised up and no longer is willing to plop down hard earned cash for GM products.The single biggest handicap today on a GM product? The GM Badge. It serves to reminds any buyers just who and what they are dealing with. NO one at GM is willing to admit to the above, so the GM ship will continue to take on water. Bill C.

rockylee

Well they take on 26% of the market share in January. That's water that GM can and will continue to drink.

Rocky

lemko

I've never heard of it. Any pictures? It wish Pontiac would bring back the Bonneville. It was the only one of their cars I'd have seriously considered.

sls002

While you are mostly correct, your example is not: the cobalt has a much better platform than the old cavalier. The current upgraded Impala is still on the old W-platform, and, while upgraded, the platform is quite old.

GM's basic problem is that they no longer have the sales to go with their manufacturing capacity. They need to down size and get rid of a lot of extra employees that are not needed.

sls002

I think that the G8 was supposed to be a Bonneville replacement, probably on the RWD zeta platform that is now dead if we can rely on Motor Trend's reading of the tea leaves.

rockylee

Yes the GTO is dead but gives new life to the Buick Velite Roadster that was dead a few months ago according to Motor Trend. The G8 however does survive the GTO death. It will be a rebadged Holden Commadore with Pontiac styling like seen at the autoshow last year. With the Camaro coming out why does GM need to introduce a new GTO ????

The Buick Velite if it get's the Twin Turbo 3.6 "High Feature" V-6 that is capable of 450 hp. then GM will have a true Volvo C-70 and MB convertible killer on it's hands because the MSRP is rumored to be around $40K. If they do make the Velite Roadster I will without a doubt be one of the first to slap my order in.

Rocky

sls002

I expect that GM is developing some sort of RWD midsize platform based on bits and pieces from Holden for a Camaro and a midsize RWD sedan for the Impala.

One would expect that the Grand Prix and LaCrosse to either get dumped, or also become RWD sedans.

kodename

Really now , what difference does it make? The Product planners at GM have no idea what they are doing and will no doubt change their "plan" from week to week! Honestly, the record shows speculation is pointless when talking GM. I doubt they are reading these posting for ideas. The top managers within GM counterdict themselves all the time. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. They start and then stop programs often within 90 days. GM is no longer in a position to make a mistake, so they seem paralised. The next GTO? We've all read the stories and seen the drawings, the next GTO was a style mess, so now they've dropped it and are hunting for another answer? Based on sales, there will be no next GTO.Will GM decide to graffed on a new front end and taillights to the alledged 2009(?) Camaro and call it a GTO or Firebird? If they do,it will fail. Bill C.

igor2

yup like Ford is doing/..

They just announced the kill of all models made by Wixom in MI... within months the plant il have nothing to produce..The plant feelts it would be one of the last to shut down from the 14 announced.. now they will be one of the first.

The same goes for Atlanta - Taurus run finally stops in May

etc... Ford approached the plant closings much more aggressively and is going to close plants much faster than GM is planning.. While hte 14 plants is a plan to 2012, most of them will close this and next year. The rest will be decided based on concession on benefits by local workers, success of new products etc.

The kill is so much more drastic, they are actually going to BUILD a new plant - but the new one will be much cheaper to opearate and flexible to produce several cars.. it will produce new small cars planned for the NA market by next summer.

Igor

igor2

Toyota will simply take over, keep Pontiac as semi premium sporty brand and probbaly shed everything else.. keep the SUV/Truck technology and be happy... they have enough cash to cover the GM hole and thye will simply rule the world :-)

Igor

rockylee

Lemko, sls002, the G-8 will be a replacement for both. However the G-8 is about as big as a Grand Prix in size with slightly bigger dimensions. Holden Commadore is the G8 according to Motor Trend and others getting spy photos.
One is currently being tested as a mule in our market.

Rocky

sls002

My, my, you are an optimist if you think they will last until 2015. At the present rate (about $5 billion per quarter), I do not see how GM can last till 2010.

In all fairness to GM, they did manage to bring out the Solstice. The new line of trucks managed to get into production, which is why the RWD zeta platform was delayed in part. But the big part of the zeta delay was that it was not going well in the development process, so they have been rethinking the RWD platform. So the Camaro is probably the next RWD platform and will probably be a mid-size platform. A large size RWD sedan platform will probably be developed later.

The real question is whether the red ink will continue to flow, in which case GM will not have the resources to develop new products which will doom them.

sls002

This is possible if it is an import from down under. There was supposed to be a down under Buick too.

rockylee

That's what it will be. From the land of Kangaroo's

Rocky